Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!inter2.interstice.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!news.us.world.net!ns2.mainstreet.net!news.PBI.net!usenet ~From: The Polymath ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 23:10:55 -0700 Organization: Polymath Enterprises ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3223E2EF.75C7@pacbell.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> ~Reply-To: polymath@pacbell.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-206-171-250-86.vntrcs.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) I've passed the word about StM to Soprano, who's been too busy to be much of a presence here of late. She sends her condolences and will check in as soon as her computer is set up again (she just moved to a new apartment). She wanted to know if anyone had heard anthing about funeral plans. Some of us in the area who knew Carl personally would want to attend. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP) polymath@pacbell.net <<<===PLEASE NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS http://www.babcom.com/polymath <<<===AND NEW HOME PAGE URL (818) 882-6309 Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!homer30.u.washington.edu!bastet ~From: "K. Ohanlon" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 02:27:26 -0700 Organization: University of Washington ~Lines: 40 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <4vu4r8$3ai@babylon5.babcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: homer30.u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NNTP-Posting-User: bastet In-Reply-To: <4vu4r8$3ai@babylon5.babcom.com> Crow blinks for a moment when she wanders back into the Place. There seem to be more folks in here than she's used to. They aren't staying long, and all seem to have rather sad expressions on their faces, as do many of the regulars. As she passes by the bar, she discreetly asks Mike what's going on. The big Irishman is looking less than completely jolly himself. As he shares his distressing news, Crow's eyes widen and she goes slightly pale for a moment. "Oh, no," is all that she can manage to whisper, before she orders a small Bacardi and Coke. She stands back for a moment, listening to all the other patrons, past and present, who make toasts to honor the controversial kzin. She hesitates for a moment, then also steps forward to say her peace. "I only knew Carl Lydick as Speaker-to-Minerals. I never met the man face to face, and the first time he and I ever 'spoke' was during a flamewar I inadvertantly started by dumping a bunch of rum on him as a joke, and then had the bad grace to get scared about the infamous kzinti's temper and apologize." Crow smiles wryly. "Twas for the apology that I got flamed." "Can't say as I always agreed with Speaker. Sometimes his posts made me mad enough to snarl, but even then I couldn't deny that the guy did stand up for himself. That he had exacting standards for everyone, including himself. I may not have necessarily liked him, but I did have a great deal of grudging respect for him." "I had been gone from here for awhile because of various things in RL, and when I finally returned, it was to an alt.callahans lacking Speaker. Oddly enough, i missed seeing his posts. Yes, even the ones that made me furious. It saddens me more to learn that he won't be posting here ever again." With that, Crow drains her glass, and sends it over to settle amid the flames. 'It seems fitting enough, since that was generally where StM was to be found most times anyways.' -Kelley, aka Crow. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!agate!ames!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: glo@io.com (Gareth L Owen) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 03:50:33 -0500 Organization: Illuminati Online ~Lines: 55 Message-ID: <50118p$i8k@bermuda.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com> <32238039.4E1E@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bermuda.io.com In article <32238039.4E1E@rand.nidlink.com>, Looking Wolf wrote: > >The wolf steps out of his corner and accepts a drink from Mike. > >"I did not know Speaker-to-Minerals well, nor did I know his Real Life >self at all. However, I have read enough of his posts to know that he >was a good, if troubled, soul. > >"There is a truly profound sense of loss that accompanies this news, one >that, for me, is greater than can be explained by the passing of one >whom I knew all too little. > >"In his absence, Callahan's was changed. With his death, Callahan's is >diminished." > >The wolf pauses for a moment, and looks at the chalk line beneath his >feet. When he raises his head again, the right side of his face has >been painted black. > >"Carl Lydick, Speaker-to-Minerals, had I known you better, I think that >I would have called you friend. You are missed." The wolf's empty >glass joins the many shattering into the fireplace. > >"Be well, my friend. May your path lead you to the happiness you seek; >may your spirit be always in beauty. May your spirit be always in >beauty." > >...Looking Wolf The Stranger descends silently from the rafters, places a single coin on the bar in exchange for a Bacardi and Coke and walks to the chalkline. "It's been a long time since I've been able to post here, I'm sorry my return has come to such bad news." He drains the glass "Looking wolf has said it all, I guess. We are lessened for his loss. He had intellectual integrity of a magnitude I've rarely seen." "Wherever you are, I hope you've found the Truth that was so important to you. goodbye Speaker-to-Minerals. Goodbye Carl." The Stranger places his glass, unbroken, on the fire. The Stranger -- Gareth L Owen |\_/| Roleplayer, karate man, shadowrunner glo@io.com (o o) Itinerant mountaineer and cynical idealist finger for PGP key \_/ http://www.io.com/~glo/ "Think for yourself - that means YOU citizen!" Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zap.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 05:05:18 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 30 Message-ID: <50124e$og8@zap.io.org> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <5006er$pss@starman.rsn.hp.com> <3223CDFC.550@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zap.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:41:32 -0700 in alt.callahans, The Polymath said: : Richard A. Schumacher wrote: : : >He'll be back. God will grow weary of Carl loudly pointing out all : >of His mistakes. : : ROTFL through tears! (-; : : Thanks. I needed that. Leslie, still laughing at an image of StM *demanding* answers from God, seconds Polymath's thanks. "StM said, not too long ago, that his idea of a perfect afterlife would be a place where 'you get to keep learning!'--a place where there are always new questions to find answers to, always new challenges. (Not that he believed in an afterlife at all, or the idea of a 'soul.' Strictly as an exercise in imagination.) "What do you suppose the world would be like, if God said, 'okay, you think *you* could do better? Be my guest...'" Leslie. We'd all have to learn calculus, *that's* for sure... -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp.earthlink.net!usenet ~From: BetNoir ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:41:22 -0700 Organization: BetNoir Pirate Wenching Academy ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <322468A2.42A6@earthlink.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <500gb1$29f@nntp.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: max4-vgd-ca-58.earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; U) I wish I could say that I KNEW Carl/Speaker....but I can't. Hell, I can't even claim that I was one of his flamees - I never did get to the exaulted level of 'asshole,' 'moron,' or 'shit-for-brains.' I even actually once wrested a public apology out of him for a posting he made in error that I corrected him on. So all that is left is that I must wonder why Carl and StM were such diametric opposites. StM was the one who ranted and raved, and yet I always had the feeling that the apology post was from Carl instead. Nevertheless....he DID believe in one thing that I wholeheartedly agree with. Get yer facts straight before posting! And if we can all do that, mayhaps StM's rants will not have been for nothing... BetN --- "I am a virus....and I am unclean.... I am not part of God's well-oiled machine...." - D. Elfman Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news ~From: Lady Cheron ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:20:03 -0700 Organization: Wargamers, Sterling VA ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <322471B3.4A3@patriot.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-7.patriot.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) Lady Cheron, arriving belatedly, hears this announcement second-hand. She awaits her turn at the chalk line. Raising her glass, she toasts "Carl Lydick, and Speaker to Minerals. Gone, but not forgotten. The Place will be quieter and a bit sadder without you. May you find peace." Her glass joins the row of others on the fireplace tiles. -- Lady Cheron ------------------------------------------------------------------- Wargamers Website is up and running! Visit us at http://www.patriot.net/users/wargamer Say "HI" to Cody! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!tezcat!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 06:45:44 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 56 Message-ID: <50180o$3sr@zot.io.org> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 27 Aug 1996 19:06:49 -0400 in alt.callahans, David P. Murphy said: : PhaseOfTheMoon quietly walks in and leans against a wall unnoticed. Not so unnoticed... : He watches and listens, astonished, to the many people who mourn : the apparent passing of Speaker. Phase has never been here before, : never even known the place existed, until he heard voices inside : as he was passing by, discussing "Carl Lydick". "He posted to comp.os.vms under the address carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu." Leslie notes. "Try searching DejaNews for his other address, lydick@sol1.gps.caltech.edu also," she adds, her voice faltering to realize that she'll never see either name on a post again... He is impressed : by the maturity of the bar's inhabitants, and is not quite sure : what to do. The only thing certain in his mind is that this was : not the desired outcome. He hesitantly clears his throat and : asks, to no one in particular, "Who knows what really happened : about his job at CalTech?" "As far as I am aware, there was only the rumor that he'd been fired, but no direct confirmation of anything. Apparently they kept the lid on it pretty tight, whatever it was." : He waits for an answer, wondering . . . did his letter to the : staff at GPS have anything to so with Carl's termination? "It seems...highly unlikely, to me, but who knows? I read a post in c.o.v. once where someone said that when he joined a VMS mailing list back in '87, about the first thing he saw was a debate over Carl's language. He's been flaming people on the net since there WAS a net. Why, suddenly, should his language become an issue major enough to fire him over, and without warning, at that? His...last...email to me spoke of things he planned to say in an upcoming post to a.c.. Whatever it was, it was not expected. "And you were scarcely the first, nor would you have been the last, to complain to his higher-ups, surely--? And besides, the rumor that we heard said it was more like 'he was spending too much time posting when he ought to have been working,' and not anything to do with his flames, anyway. And yet even that doesn't quite add up, since he's been posting like this for years and years. He told me he'd made the Top Ten by Volume of Posts to Usenet list before, and that was two years ago... "Perhaps, now that he's gone, someone will let the real story out..." Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!news.lvld.hp.com!news ~From: Randy Martens ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:50:24 -0700 Organization: The Vectra at the End of the Universe ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <322478D0.4CA4@lvld.hp.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <4vu4r8$3ai@babylon5.babcom.com> <3223B058.11AE@Titan.SFASU.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: hplvlrm1.lvld.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Wayne S Garmil wrote: > > In article <3223B058.11AE@Titan.SFASU.EDU>, > Sailor Jim wrote: > > > >P.S. Shipmates, do the man proud and hang that plaque on the back wall > >of the fireplace (on the inside, of course, to remember him every time > >you see the flames). > > You know, I *like* this suggestion. Yes, Carl's name deserves to be > added to the plaque on the moon, I'm not saying it shouldn't go there. > But having a second plaque for him, hung by the fireplace so when we > see the flames we think of Carl, that just seams VERY appropriate. I second this notion. Lets carve a plaque of a suitable fireproof matierial and put it up inside the fireplace. Perhaps we could even find a picture of Carl scowling and engrave it on the plaque! Randy -- | "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no | | basis for a system of government" ----------- M. Palin | Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!news.lvld.hp.com!news ~From: Randy Martens ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:14:30 -0700 Organization: The Vectra at the End of the Universe ~Lines: 80 Message-ID: <32247E76.5DA1@lvld.hp.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvstr$28t@boris.eden.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hplvlrm1.lvld.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) A little net fishing has produced this. I think it's Carl's last post. If anybody's got anything else, please let me know. BTW, you can see that Carl is in fine form below ;-) Randy --- B E G I N S --- ~Subject: Re: BLACK BODY RADIATION INSIDE ALL BOXES CARL. ~From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick) ~Date: 1996/06/23 Message-Id: <4qih5c$qlc@gap.cco.caltech.edu> Distribution: world ~References: <4qekct$hnh@lll-Winken.llnl.gov> <4qhaj6$9sb@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera ~Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU ~Newsgroups: sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.new-Theories,sci.astro,sci.skeptic In article , Keith Stein writes: =>=>, Keith Stein writes:- =>=>|> It seems to me therefore, that the =>=>|> background radiation is more naturally explained as the remnant of =>=>|> Olbers' radiation, rather than as a remnant of the Big Bang. = =>= "William S. Lawson" writes =>=>The problem with this is that the wavelength distribution is not =>=>right. The wavelength distribution is measured to be a blackbody =>=>spectrum to within the experimental accuracy. If the radiation were =>=>a superposition of many blackbody (stellar) spectra at different =>=>temperatures, as it would be in the Olber's scenario, we would see =>=>a very different distribution. = => Keith Stein writes:- =>=I can't see why you say that Bill. All stars give a good approximation =>=to Black Body radiation, but even if they didn't, when you shut one up =>=in a box, which is effectively what the visible universe is, then the =>=spectrum inside the box must be a be a 'perfect black body spectrum'. = = Carl J Lydick writes =>Clearly you've got a problem understanding what black body radiation is. = =IT'S YOU'VE GOT THE PROBLEM UNDERSTANDING,CARL. THE RADIATION INSIDE ANY = AND EVERY ENCLOSURE IN EQUILIBRIUM IS 'PERFECT BLACK BODY RADIATION'. So tell us, please, o magnificent moron, just what is the "enclosure" you're postulating here? Please note that this "enclosure" must have the properties that: 1) It absorbs all radiation coming from the inside, and reradiates that energy; and 2) It allows some radiation to pass through unimpeded, allowing us to observe the structure of the galaxies that are inside the enclosure. =(If you don't beleive this please look it up in a physics text book). =Now you can't show me any enclosure that's had longer to get to =equilibrium than the universe . Hence as i said, i would expect the =cosmic background radiation to be 'perfect black body radiation', =and i do know what that is, =thank you Carl. Sorry, shit-for-brains, but your analysis requires that something somewhere absorb and reradiate the energy, and you've yet to tell us what you think that something might be. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL Disclaimer: Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS. That's what I get paid for. My understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). So unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my organization responsible for it. If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it. --- E N D I T --- -- | "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no | | basis for a system of government" ----------- M. Palin | Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!tezcat!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 07:18:55 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 53 Message-ID: <5019uv$659@zot.io.org> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:40:09 -0700 in alt.callahans, The Polymath said: : Carl suffered from insulin dependent diabetes and all its attendant : consequences (pick a symptom, any symptom, he probably had it in : spades at some point). "And allergies, and asthma, and high blood-pressure, and was overweight, and smoked, and drank..." He also suffered from congestive heart failure : and was scheduled for 6x bypass surgery early this year, but changed : his mind for reasons likely known only to himself. (Supposedly, the : operation would have prolonged his life, but not improved its quality. : Carl decided it wasn't worth it). "He said that a *BIG* part of the reason for *postponing* (AFAIK) the surgery was that he was very reluctant to burden someone with the responsibility of ordering the plug to be pulled, should the surgery result in his becoming a vegetable. He didn't want to screw up the lady's life, even if it perhaps cost him his." Tears and the memory of tears fill Leslie's eyes. "Fatheaded noble...." she whispers, reliving that email conversation. : I always admired his stubborn refusal to let his infirmities interfere : with his life any more than absolutely necessary -- although it often : worsened his health to do so. He never struck me as the actively : suicidal type. "He'd talked about feeling suicidal in posts to a.c. before, though. I read one from December 1993 saying just that, as (I think?) his brother had just committed suicide. His father also took his own life. But he was a fighter, and always seemed to have an instinct for survival which kept him going..." : All in all, "illness" is the most likely cause of his passing. "If he quit taking his meds, he'd be pretty ill, alright. I can't help but wonder what being cut off from the net did to him. He had other interests outside of the net, but it *was* an integral part of his life. And he did love his VAXen, too..." "But speculation in that direction is useless. In the absence of facts and the presence of conflicting evidence, the only logical thing to do is to withhold judgement. We can't know anything unless they do an autopsy and make the results public." Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!news.utdallas.edu!news.starnet.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 09:47:17 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 65 Message-ID: <501m5l$f0h@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu A small dot climbs the steep stairs. The stairs connect the meadow to the moon. No easy way by starship this time. No speedy trip and a quick return. Linda and Robbie wait patiently near the plaque. The figure moves slowly with his burden. Step by painful step. Exercise hasn't been done by him in years. A trip of this many thousand miles takes a very long time. He appears to be carrying something. What it is, isn't exactly clear. It is heavy, very heavy, but DJ doesn't drop it or put it down for a rest. He could ask for Linda's help, but wont. He could ask for other folk's help, but wont. He would refuse help, if it was offered. Days go by. Weeks. The extremes of outer space. DJ finally arrives at the plaque. He struggles with the object. Its a plaque of gold and bronze. And upon it is written in mithril. "Good-bye Carl Speaker-To-Minerals Lydick. I will miss your friendship Sometimes we disagreed You told some great puns. And I just _know_ that Death had second thoughts by the time you were through with him ! Good-bye to someone I was Proud to call Friend !" The plaque is placed upon the lunar soil. On a small stand by itself, for Carl was one of a kind, and he stood apart, a cat who walked by himself, his wild alone. But I do know he had friends, for I am one of them. A song wanders through DJ's mind: 'softly falls the light, as the sun sits down behind the hills, a new star shines up in the sky, it waxes and wanes, much as the person whom it represents did. I will miss him, Good night my friend, Good night.' >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CRASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Dreamy Jim, Linda the Starship, and Robbie the Robot. DJ walks back down those stairs, and sits in the meadow, where the green grass grows, by his wild alone. [and if any disagree, tough.] -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!bg0l+ ~From: Bruce E Golightly ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:01:49 -0400 Organization: Administrative Computing & Info Services, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA ~Lines: 5 Distribution: world Message-ID: ~References: <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <9608270819.AA00523@192.80.10.188> To Speaker - we are diminished by your loss. Anam Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.att.com!cbgw3.att.com!news.PBI.net!usenet ~From: The Polymath ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:22:55 -0700 Organization: Polymath Enterprises ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: <32249C8F.51DF@pacbell.net> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <5019uv$659@zot.io.org> ~Reply-To: polymath@pacbell.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-206-171-250-57.vntrcs.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) Leslie wrote: >On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:40:09 -0700 in alt.callahans, The Polymath said: >:He also suffered from congestive heart failure >:and was scheduled for 6x bypass surgery early this year, but changed >:his mind for reasons likely known only to himself. ... >"He said that a *BIG* part of the reason for *postponing* (AFAIK) the >surgery was that he was very reluctant to burden someone with the >responsibility of ordering the plug to be pulled, should the surgery >result in his becoming a vegetable. He didn't want to screw up the lady's >life, even if it perhaps cost him his." ... "The lady" may wish to comment herself when she gets to this post. I can testify she was far more concerned for Carl's health than any inconvenience it might have caused her and repeatedly tried to contact him for details, paperwork, etc. While I admire his motives, I think, at the end of the day, he did her an injustice and a disservice. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP) polymath@pacbell.net <<<===PLEASE NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS http://www.babcom.com/polymath <<<===AND NEW HOME PAGE URL (818) 882-6309 Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nidlink.com!usenet ~From: Looking Wolf ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:26:52 -0700 Organization: NetLink, Inc. ~Lines: 31 Message-ID: <32249D7C.128F@rand.nidlink.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com> <4vvd7n$7i9@eagle.ais.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-25.nidlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) Roland X wrote: > > > Carl would, if he were truly dead, be rolling over in his grave over the > > self-serving weeping occuring here at this moment. You tip your vain > > and virtual glasses to yourselves: no other. Enjoy your sentimental > > trip. Carl would have none of it. Carl needed help in his present, > > not in this one. Let it be. > > Indeed he would. And if he were alive, he'd come back and roast us > all for mourning him on flimsy evidence. > As for that mourning, I'm quite certain that he knew enough about > the grieving process to know that a funeral is held for the survivors > as much as, if not more than, for the dead. We mourn for his passing > because we are dimished thereby. > And if we wish him well in whatever lies beyond, that is our business. The wolf nods. "Grief is almost always for those left behind, and there is nothing wrong with that. Knowing that one for whom you care is gone, effectively forever, is a painful, empty feeling. Just because someone is large-hearted enough to want no grief at their passing does not mean they would despise those who are hurt by it." ...Looking Wolf Sunset, and evening star, and one clear call for me. And may there be no moaning of the bar when I put out to sea. --Alfred, Lord Tennyson (title of poem and proper scansion regretfully forgotten) Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 11:02:03 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: <501qhr$h4b@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu PhaseOfTheMoon: >Phase waits at the bar, wondering if maybe the world sucks because >someone is willing to lose his job and maybe his life to stick to >his principles, wondering if that's what speaker was about, wondering >if he'll ever know the truth about speaker. Last year, he found a job possibility for me at Cal Tech. I asked hiom if I should mention he recommended me for the job. He said he didn't think it was a good idea to mention that to Personnel. Maybe later if i got to the interview stage. So, no Dave, I don't believe you got him fired. I don't know for certain. Join us if you want to. I don't hold that letter against you. He did hold to his principles. Strongly hold to them he did. Hugs, DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 11:07:17 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <501qrl$h7s@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <5006er$pss@starman.rsn.hp.com> <3223CDFC.550@pacbell.net> <50124e$og8@zap.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu Leslie: >"What do you suppose the world would be like, if God said, 'okay, >you think *you* could do better? Be my guest...'" thank you Leslie. I can imagine it happening. Hugs, DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 11:19:20 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: <501ri8$i98@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223CDFC.550@pacbell.net> <50124e$og8@zap.io.org> <501gj0$gu2@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu []>Leslie. We'd all have to learn calculus, *that's* for sure... [] [] kitten chokes. "i had the chance to get him to teach me math, and i [] let it slide. the mind boggles at the thought of a speaker-run [] universe....i hope there would be a small corner reserved for us [] bimbos. Of course there would be such a corner. I would have to have a place to sit with you. And we could watch hime arrange things. [] DAMNIT ANYHOW!" yes. i was certain he would outlast me. Now, I outlast him. my health is better than his was, but he was much more stubborn than me. As for my beliefs, I think Death has a black eye, and a couple of broken bones, at the least. Hugs, DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.supernet.net!news.magicnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.infi.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.iadfw.net!usenet ~From: Sam Robinson ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:46:25 -0400 Organization: INTERNET AMERICA ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <32245BC1.14AC@interpath.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-168-121-229-113.dialup.mindspring.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Sam walks up to the line at the line and waits patiently, quietly watching the faces of the rest of the patrons. When his turn comes he says "Carl, or Speaker I didn't ever have the fortune to meet you. But when ever and where ever your name was mentioned there was an immediate reaction. I have heard praise for your intellect, and some criticism of your manner, in your Speaker persona. In any case, you have been a force shaping this place I love, and it would not be the same without your influence. I wish I had known you. -- Sam Robinson Samstuff@mindspring.com ____________________________________________________________ If you don't know what you want, you can never ever have it. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 14:24:13 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <5026ct$j5f@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <32245BC1.14AC@interpath.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:46:25 -0400 in alt.callahans, Sam Robinson said: : Sam walks up to the line at the line and waits patiently, quietly : watching the faces of the rest of the patrons. When his turn comes he : says "Carl, or Speaker I didn't ever have the fortune to meet you. But : when ever and where ever your name was mentioned there was an immediate : reaction. "This is true. Rare indeed was the person who was indifferent to StM entirely--if any such person existed at all. He was a lightening rod for a lot of things; he acted as a polarization factor on most any issue he argued. He brought out both the best--and the worst-- in just about everyone who read his posts. The latter is not so hard to achieve--the former is also rare indeed." I have heard praise for your intellect, and some criticism of : your manner, in your Speaker persona. In any case, you have been a force : shaping this place I love, and it would not be the same without your : influence. I wish I had known you. "You can know him, if you care to--much is archived by DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com). Set up a filter to search alt.callahans for this year, using the author lydick@sol1.gps.caltech.edu. Also there is the alt.callahans archive maintained by frood, which you can find a link to from my webpage as well as from shadowcat's page at http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html. "Just remember--his net.personna was a deliberate construct; it was only the expression of one facet of his personality. Do not mistake his posts to a.c. or anywhere else as painting a full picture of who he was, because you'll jump to wrong conclusions that way." Leslie. Who saw a whole other side to him in email. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news1.erols.com!news ~From: Noel Lynne Figart ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 09:37:50 GMT Organization: Pendragon Dream Factory ~Lines: 24 Message-ID: <50141e$2re@test-sun.erols.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: frd-as1s04.erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22KIT (Windows; U; 16bit) claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) wrote: >"If I may make a possibly controversial toast about a very controversial >patron..." He probably would have had it no other way! > >"To a loyal friend, a stubborn arguer, an ass, a scientist; someone >people blamed when they left alt.callahans, someone people laughed >to see 'still here' when they came back. I never liked his tactics, >but I came to respect his goals. To Carl Lydick, Speaker to Minerals." > >*CRASH* Noel grins wryly and runs a hand through her hair, "You said it better than I ever could, Claudia. That irritating, grumpy Kzin "did" get me back into studying math." Noel tosses back a Long Island Iced tea and sends it crashing into the fireplace. Alamus trots over to Noel and wraps his trunk around her ankle as she stares into the flames shaking her head and biting her lip -- not knowing whether to laugh or cry. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 15:34:05 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 86 Message-ID: <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:58:45 -0500 in alt.callahans, Alan B. Combs said: All of a sudden, Leslie realizes the irony...this will be the last time Speaker's name is in the title of a thread... One last time, then, a thread to join all the hundreds of others with your name in the subject line, StM. I promise to try to represent your side in your absence, knowing how much you hated to be misinterpreted. What would you really reply to all this? I don't know. But I'll give it my best, most educated shot... Forgive me if I don't flame anyone you would have flamed... : I discovered alt.callahans about February of this year, at a time when I : really needed it. I lurked for a while before participating and grew to : appreciate Carl's depth of general knowledge and scholarship -- in many, : many areas. After wiping her eyes so she can read the screen again, Leslie says, "Out of curiosity...and I was always nosy and prying...to which he never objected...I once asked him just what all he considered himself an 'expert' in. And he said..." --- [Speaker, circa April 1996] Well, let's see. In engineering and science, there's four years as an undergrad at Caltech. Social sciences? Four years of grad work at Caltech. Actual degrees earned: None. I was one lab course short of a BS in engineering, ran out of financial aid before completing a thesis in economics, and was ill enough at the time that I didn't get around to filling out the paperwork for a terminal MS. Expert level: The VAX/VMS operating system. Very knowledgeable about: Physics, up to but not including general relativity; Electrical engineering; Political science; Microeconomics. With a less stringent criterion: Biochemistry (at least as it applies to diabetes), Mechanical engineering, General chemistry, Mathematics (up to about the level of complex analysis), Carpentry, Masonry, Cooking. ------ [...] : I did not like his anger (or at least what I perceived as anger, though he : said it was not) and his intolerance for the fuzzy, ambiguous, : easy-to-misinterpret nature of words. I do affirm the strong, wonderful, : helpful resource he was. He fought ignorance, diabetes, and congestive : heart failure. I wonder if lack of hope for the future, and similar lack : of hope for the present contributed to the anger we saw at the end of his : postings. Until we are able to walk in his shoes, perhaps, even the anger : and flames should be forgiven. "Don't jump to conclusions. There were a lot of flames then, true, but don't forget that he was involved in defending himself against misinterpretations. And perhaps it was just chemically pure chance that several subjects came up at once that fit his criteria for 'things which deserve to be flamed.' Painting him as being so unself-aware of his own emotional state does him a major disservice." : To Carl J. Lydick, a *man*. The journey is not over. Albeit, you : rejected the concept, may God's grace go with you. "I hope you aren't referring to the God of the Old and New Testament. StM really hated that guy a lot. The God of the Deists, he'd be willing to go along with..." : C R A S H (then hugs and tears around) Thank you. Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 15:48:42 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 31 Message-ID: <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 27 Aug 1996 14:49:45 GMT in alt.callahans, barbara trumpinski said: : kitten comes out of the folx room dressed in flame red. "by all the : gods and goddesses that speaker didn't believe in, let's make merry : and have the best damn wake we can." she lifts the rum and diet coke : that has been handed to her. "to speaker, and to us all...this life : is sometimes not big enough to hold us. let the circle be open but : never broken." "Put the Animaniacs tapes in the VCR. He loved that show. And then a lot of old B movies..." : radio free colorado(tm) starts playing: a medley of swing interspersed : with the grateful dead and other random songs...but not 'suicide is : painless'. "Truckin'. They have to play Truckin'. There was a thread once where people were telling what the theme song to the movie of the story of their life would be, and that's what he said." : (leslie, don't cry) "I can't help it," Leslie says, "I wanted to meet him someday, and give him a real hug, and scratch his ears. I'm sure he knew how much I cared about him, but I still wanted the chance to *tell* him, face to face," More tears spilling down her cheeks, she adds, "This is the first time in my life I've ever lost someone I really cared about." Leslie. I thought he was too stubborn to die... ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!world!wgarmil ~From: wgarmil@world.std.com (Wayne S Garmil) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Message-ID: Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <4vu4r8$3ai@babylon5.babcom.com> <3223B058.11AE@Titan.SFASU.EDU> ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:37:30 GMT ~Lines: 20 In article <3223B058.11AE@Titan.SFASU.EDU>, Sailor Jim wrote: > >P.S. Shipmates, do the man proud and hang that plaque on the back wall >of the fireplace (on the inside, of course, to remember him every time >you see the flames). You know, I *like* this suggestion. Yes, Carl's name deserves to be added to the plaque on the moon, I'm not saying it shouldn't go there. But having a second plaque for him, hung by the fireplace so when we see the flames we think of Carl, that just seams VERY appropriate. Wayne (who expected Speaker to out-last us all here) -- _ __ _ __ Who wants to live forever ' ) / // / / ) / If true love has to die? / / / o // __/ / __. __ __/ - F. Mercury & B. May (_(_/ <_ Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:06:30 GMT ~Lines: 104 ~Sender: tlsmith@netcom12.netcom.com Ilene H. Morgan (imorgan@umr.edu) wrote: : In article <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, kittent@staff.uiuc.edu : (barbara trumpinski) wrote: : >kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called : >speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl : >was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone : >out there can help, please do." : >she raises her glass in a silent toast. : Ilene sadly shakes her head. Usually she likes to be right, but there are : times when she would have dearly loved to have been wrong, and this is one : of those times. : "To Carl. May you have an easier time in the next world, if any, than you : did in this one." : *CRASH* : Ilene I, too, would have preferred to have been wrong. Ilene and a few others will know what I mean; it is not important now. After I first entered alt.callahans, and "noticed" Speaker, I back- tracked and read many of his archived articles. I had respect for his brilliance and knowledge. I did not agree with his tactics, particularly in the last months here in Callahan's. I saw him more and more using logical trickery and the strawmen he warned of himself, to "win" arguments, whether his points were valid or not. As his articles became more and more vituperative, I often wondered if he was somehow proving to himself that he was still living, and was having an effect in the world. Heat and agitation can be signs of life. Several of us worried about Carl, privately. I know that we would have *preferred* that he *have* that operation, and possibly regain some health. It was his choice not to. I do not know why. There were many things I did not understand about Carl. He came to my defense once, even after I had replied (in email) to a letter of his in which he addressed me by a name other than my own by telling him that if he could not pay enough attention to what he was reading to attribute it correctly, then I didn't think I would put much faith in what he was saying about it, either. Shortly thereafter, he *completely* misinterpreted a "fun" post that I made, an obvious intellectual *game* of speculation, as an avowal of my own personal beliefs. At that point, he seemed not to be able to understand the difference between a "Gee...What if..." where folx take an oddball premise and rip it apart for fun, and deep religious beliefs. I tried to explain to him in email, but was unsuccessful. For some time after I once remarked that my NetCom server did not pick up all the alt.callahans articles, he sent me emails explaining the propagation of articles on USENET. A *lot* of emails explaining that. Over and over *again*. I kept telling him that I really did understand it, and he kept sending those articles. I don't understand *that*, either. He did keep me brushed-up on my analytical reasoning. I annoyed me that he expected folx to say "You are right, Speaker," if he made a point in one of the ubiquitous flame fests he indulged in, but would not do the same himself. And I worried about him as his articles became less meticulous, and his reasoning more sloppy. When I told him via email that I was worried, he ignored my letters. No, I did not understand "Speaker to Minerals" or Carl Lydick. I admired his brilliance, and I respected him, when he adhered to his own oft-referred-to logical preciseness and rules of debate. I hope wherever "Carl" is, if anywhere, that it is somewhere *interesting*, and that he is well, and alert, and learning. Perhaps the Library of the Milky Way has just taken on a new assistant. I doubt it will be long before he has it figured out how that place *should* be run... >>> crash <<< "Never insult anyone unintentionally." - Arthur H. Quirmbach (and others) "The One Great Commandment is: 'Thou Shalt Not Waste.'" - Arthur H. Quirmbach (and others) "The saddest thought in the world is that *nothing* lasts forever... The most comforting thought in the world is ... that nothing lasts forever." - Arthur H. Quirmbach - C'mell (M.Q.S. posting courtesy tlsmith@netcom.com) -- *--------------------------------------------------------------------* | M.Q.S. c/o T.L.S | "Don't play with that! You have no idea where | | tlsmith@netcom.com | it's been..." -- Speaker to Elevators | *--------------------------------------------------------------------* Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail ~From: nellibruce@aol.com (NelliBruce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 16:18:10 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) ~Lines: 14 ~Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <5029i2$es4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Reply-To: nellibruce@aol.com (NelliBruce) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com One of the first things I did when I stumbled into The Place last summer was jump head first into an argument with Speaker. (I refer of course to the whole Didi- fest that was going on at the time.) He taught me a few things about myself and about Human Nature in general, and although I couldn't stand the son-of-a-bitch while he was around, I sure will miss him. HERE'S TO YOU, CARL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!CRAAAASHSHSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - The Averageman Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 17:19:37 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 11 Message-ID: <502glp$ge5@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223B058.11AE@Titan.SFASU.EDU> <322478D0.4CA4@lvld.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu Randy Martens wrote: >find a picture of Carl scowling and engrave it on the plaque! He was seldom angry when he made flame posts. I know that to be true, because he stated over and over he did no such thing. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 17:29:00 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <502h7c$i46@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu The Yendi wrote: >post, I *went* to the police station and *SAW* the report. I do not >think that this is flimsy evidence." by 'flimsy evidence' i think they refer to kitten's post. DJ. [ whom some might mistake for Kensie Graeme...] [ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ puzzles even me, so don't ask.] -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 17:51:24 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 62 Message-ID: <502ihc$n1a@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <4vvu4g$ik3@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502dit$88j@mozz.unh.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu Kitten, i hope you and Patchmaker don't mind me borrowing that line there 'rage against the dying of the light.' Ode to a Kzin by DJ. Tis not yet sunset where i am, But a light has died, [ A rage against it going out is of no use,] Out there by the Western Shore, The Moon, cold heated orb, orbits 'round the Earth, Saturn spins like a top, Galaxies hiss in the Deep Dark, I travel via my mind's eye across the Universe, But one of those I would share my dreams with, He, Another Friend of mine is Gone, I had hoped to meet him at ConFrancisco, but he did not feel that his bicycle would make it that far, I wanted to travel there, to Cal Tech, But my money ran short, I had hoped to go to L.A. Con III, and make a shorter trip, but no money graced my wallet, There is always next time I said, But now there is no next time, I discovered his emotion when one day he came in here, and announced his brother had committed suicide, I cried with him, I knew he did not care for maudlin woe, So i sent him a polite email, And he thanked me. Twas then I learned forever more, He wasn't just an arguer. A few times we did engage in mock combat, When I called him a vegetable eating Kzin, And he called me monkey-boy, So. From 'monkey-boy' to a 'Kzin', Good Night My Friend ! Tis much too soon for you to go. Jim, aka DJ of alt.callahans. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!argus.demon.co.uk ~From: Andy May ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 96 12:52:41 GMT ~Lines: 26 Message-ID: <841236761snz@argus.demon.co.uk> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <5006er$pss@starman.rsn.hp.com> <3223CDFC.550@pacbell.net> ~Reply-To: Andy@argus.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: argus.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.30 X-Mail2News-Path: argus.demon.co.uk In article <3223CDFC.550@pacbell.net> polymath@pacbell.net "The Polymath" writes: > Richard A. Schumacher wrote: > > > >>kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called > >>speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl > >>was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone > >>out there can help, please do." > > >He'll be back. God will grow weary of Carl loudly pointing out all > >of His mistakes. > > ROTFL through tears! (-; > > Thanks. I needed that. > "Owwwwww - that hurts" journeyman still has tears in his eyes, but from the pain of laughter rather than sorrow. "I'd vote to print that out and prop it next to Speaker's Plaque." "To Speaker to Minerals - often unappreciated, sometimes diskliked, but usually respected." [journeyman] Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 13:09:08 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 21 Message-ID: <501gdk$gsc@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <3223E2EF.75C7@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu polymath: >I've passed the word about StM to Soprano, who's been too busy to >be much of a presence here of late. She sends her condolences and >will check in as soon as her computer is set up again (she just moved >to a new apartment). >She wanted to know if anyone had heard anthing about funeral plans. >Some of us in the area who knew Carl personally would want to attend. kitten looks up. "you might call dos amigos. i don't know anything about his RL(tm) family. and if you can remember helen's last name i really would like to know. (she's his librarian friend. the one he vacationed with). if you find out anything, please pass it along." -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 13:12:00 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 27 Message-ID: <501gj0$gu2@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <5006er$pss@starman.rsn.hp.com> <3223CDFC.550@pacbell.net> <50124e$og8@zap.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu >Leslie, still laughing at an image of StM *demanding* answers >from God, seconds Polymath's thanks. > >"StM said, not too long ago, that his idea of a perfect afterlife >would be a place where 'you get to keep learning!'--a place where >there are always new questions to find answers to, always new >challenges. (Not that he believed in an afterlife at all, or the >idea of a 'soul.' Strictly as an exercise in imagination.) >"What do you suppose the world would be like, if God said, 'okay, >you think *you* could do better? Be my guest...'" >Leslie. We'd all have to learn calculus, *that's* for sure... kitten chokes. "i had the chance to get him to teach me math, and i let it slide. the mind boggles at the thought of a speaker-run universe....i hope there would be a small corner reserved for us bimbos. DAMNIT ANYHOW!" -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!ap-seans.uchicago.edu!seanr ~From: seanr@fs-gate.uchicago.edu (Starknight) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker X-Nntp-Posting-Host: ap-seans.uchicago.edu Message-ID: ~Lines: 24 ~Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: University of Chicago/Comptrollers Office X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #1] ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vu0ej$r45@herald.concentric.net> <4vv563$r8c@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:41:10 GMT In article <4vv563$r8c@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) writes: >>Starknight watches as the others make their contributions, finishing his >>drink all the while. Getting up from his seat, he makes his way to the >>chalk line. >>"To Speaker-to-Minerals: without whom I would not be the man I am today. >>Thank you for your dedication to the truth. You shall be missed." >>The sable-clad Space Ranger tosses his glass into the air and propels it into >>the fireplace with a quick burst of his pressor beam. <<>> The >>glass shatters into fine pieces, like sand, which briefly form the face of a >>Kzintosh before drifting downward through the flames. >>I'm still numb >kitten turns to hug her lover. "you were the first person i told and >you helped me to realize that we are all part of this tapestry called >life... thank you." Starknight mutely accepts the hug, unable to choose words to express his sentiment even were he capable of speech. Starknight It's been a year for thoughts of mortality ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!uchinews!ap-seans.uchicago.edu!seanr ~From: seanr@fs-gate.uchicago.edu (Starknight) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker X-Nntp-Posting-Host: ap-seans.uchicago.edu Message-ID: ~Lines: 24 ~Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: University of Chicago/Comptrollers Office X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #1] ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvstr$28t@boris.eden.com> ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:43:24 GMT In article <4vvstr$28t@boris.eden.com> rhartman@eden.com (Rachel Hartman) writes: >kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) wrote: >>kitten comes out of the folx room dressed in flame red. "by all the >>gods and goddesses that speaker didn't believe in, let's make merry >>and have the best damn wake we can." she lifts the rum and diet coke >>that has been handed to her. "to speaker, and to us all...this life >>is sometimes not big enough to hold us. let the circle be open but >>never broken." >Rach makes her way to the chalkline, Bacardi and Diet Coke in hand. >"I never met Carl in RL, but on a few occasions, when I needed it, he >sent me some sympathetic e-mail." She raises her glass. "Carl, if >there is indeed an afterlife, and you're in it, I hope you're >somewhere where the drinks are always just right, the debates are >rousing, and tempers are fireproof." >She drinks, then sets the glass gently beside the plaque. >"Mike? The Imperial Treasury of the Court of Chocolate is covering >the cost of Bacardi and Diet Cokes for all who wish." "Oooh, you're in trouble... that just happens to be my RL drink of choice..." Starknight Set me up a double, Mike... It's a wake! Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!newstand.syr.edu!sarkar3.syr.edu!shpark ~From: shpark@sarkar3.syr.edu (Sheeyun Park) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 13:48:04 GMT Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse ~Lines: 6 Message-ID: <501imk$e75@newstand.syr.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sarkar3.syr.edu "Rest in peace. I won't miss you, but I hope you rest in peace." shpark -- shpark@mailbox.syr.edu Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!inter2.interstice.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hookup!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!userrusj ~From: userrusj@is.dal.ca (John Barnstead) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 14:12:43 GMT Organization: Dalhousie University ~Lines: 21 Message-ID: <501k4r$as6@News.Dal.Ca> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <4vvu4g$ik3@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: is.dal.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Roland X (rolandx@ix.netcom.com) wrote: : I later encountered Speaker-to-Minerals valiantly doing battle with : the Slugs during the Slug Invasion(tm). I learned then not to judge a : person by one aspect of them. He was witty, imaginative, and : generally a blast to be around. The flag over the headquarters of the LIMEX LIBERATION ARMY (tm), somewhere deep beneath Cheyenne Mountain, is lowered to half-staff as General Aloisius Ded and the legions of Tenthredinidae and other Slugs mourn the passing of their arch-foe. No one who saw it could ever forget the image of Speaker-to- Minerals slug-skiing down the slopes of Jezebel's volcano... You can't have a war without an enemy, and Speaker was happy to oblige... giving a great deal of pleasure to many people. Pernicious the Musquodoboit Harbour Farm Cat, remembering how he tried to disarm one of Speaker's favourite epithets anagrammatically, whispers his solution now as an epitaph: "Finish Star Orb, Speaker-to-Minerals... and when you're done, may it be the brightest jewel in the Patriarch's Firmament..." Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 15:12:56 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 58 Message-ID: <501nlo$p0q@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu Hey, all, I just pulled into the bar to visit the wake, though I may stop back from time to time. In article <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net>, The Polymath wrote: >Francis A. Ney, Jr. wrote: > >>...without knowledge of his medical >>history, I couldn't even hazard an informed guess. And that guess would >>probably be wrong. It's happened before. > >Carl suffered from insulin dependent diabetes and all its attendant >consequences (pick a symptom, any symptom, he probably had it in >spades at some point). Which makes it particularly ironic that a moron on misc.health.diabetes whose ideas Speaker had ripped up one side and down the other (did a damned sight better job of it than I could, though Goddess knows I tried) finally resorted to claiming Carl (or Karl Lydik, as said moron, may he never darken my door again, insisted on spelling it) wasn't really diabetic, didn't know anything about diabetes, and was just hanging out on m.h.d. to inflate his ego. I guess that his deluded mind actually believed that - Carl rarely aired his (specific) problems in public. Said moron also threatened Carl's life. While I don't believe he followed through, he wouldn't be safe if he ever met me in person. >He also suffered from congestive heart failure Believe it or not, that may be YetAnotherDiabeticComplication(tm). >and was scheduled for 6x bypass surgery early this year, but changed >his mind for reasons likely known only to himself. (Supposedly, the >operation would have prolonged his life, but not improved its quality. >Carl decided it wasn't worth it). > >I always admired his stubborn refusal to let his infirmities interfere >with his life any more than absolutely necessary -- although it often >worsened his health to do so. He never struck me as the actively >suicidal type. > >All in all, "illness" is the most likely cause of his passing. His famed temper was more of an asset than a burden on m.h.d -- the enemies he made there were not the kinds of folks he would have wanted as friends. Mostly his ire was spent on the snake-oil salesmen and other ranters offering false, and therefore dangerous, medical advice. (I only got in range of his blowtorch once -- when he thought I was suggesting giving fluids to someone unconscious in an insulin reaction.) He'll be missed. Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!news ~From: Ager or Persson ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 15:13:39 GMT Organization: Internet Connect, Inc. The Wisconsin ISP 414-476-4266 http://www.inc.net ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <501nn3$n9c@news.inc.net> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.230.195.75 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1 (Windows; U; 16bit) The Polymath wrote: He also suffered from congestive heart failure >and was scheduled for 6x bypass surgery early this year, but changed >his mind for reasons likely known only to himself. (Supposedly, the >operation would have prolonged his life, but not improved its quality. >Carl decided it wasn't worth it). Many bypass patients report feeling dull (permanently) after having been on the heart/lung machine....sort of like ginger ale without the fizz. Heart/lung machines aren't as efficient as our own hearts and lungs. I wouldn't blame Carl Lydick one bit for not wanting to blunt the mental acuity he was known for. -- Beth ---------- 73 de NN9E ---------- Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!netnews.com!udel-eecis!cpk-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 21:37:34 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 41 Message-ID: <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:51:54 GMT in alt.callahans, The Unloved said: : The Unloved pokes his head out from his dark corner. He looks : confused and upset. "I know I've been wrapped up in my own problems, : as of late... and as a result I missed something important. Can : someone please tell about the dear departed... who he was and how it : happened?" Leslie smiles wryly. "A lot of folks...myself included...tended to refer to him as 'that s.o.b.' 'Dear departed...' doesn't *quite* seem to fit Speaker-to-Minerals... "We're not sure yet just how he died...my god, we don't even know WHEN he died, I just realized...we only know he was discovered dead by his landlord last Friday, the 23rd. "As to who he was...ah well, that's not easy. His name was Carl J. Lydick, and he was 40 years old. He was a VAX/VMS god and was the terror and genius of comp.os.vms as well as other groups, like misc.health.diabetes, and alt.callahans. His a.c. personna was that of a Kzin from the Niven _Ringworld_ universe (but I always privately believed he was a Kzin who'd been raised by Vulcans...) "He's listed in the Net.Legends FAQ maintained by Dave DeLaney (in part 4), but it's an outdated entry by now. "He was the original immoveable object, and that inspired many to try to play irresistable force...and a lot of them failed, rather spectacularly. "He was complex and complicated and just plain didn't *think* the same way most other folks do, although most people tried to fit him into a category they were more familiar with, causing them to misunderstand him by quite a wide margin. And often he didn't take the time and effort to explain himself--until he'd started an argument... "He--was a lot of different things, to different people. "He was someone I loved." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!wariat.org!kf8nh.apk.net!news ~From: bsa@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 20:44:21 -0400 Organization: Brandon's home server in Parma, Ohio ~Lines: 27 Message-ID: <502p55$eb@kf8nh.apk.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kf8nh.apk.net Also sprach kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) (<4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>): +----- | kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called | speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl | was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone +--->8 (gasp/shudder/...) As I write this, I find myself feeling --- empty. As I felt when my father died: the pain didn't hit until much later, but the void was there immediately. Which is appropriate, as in many ways I have pictured Carl as being a lot like my father: an intelligent, stubborn SOB who refused to bow to either common nonsense or his own disability (polio, in my father's case). I *know* I argued a lot with them both :-) --- but both of them made me think, a priceless gift. And, even more priceless, demonstrated that you don't have to put up with whatever BS other people want to hand you. If you were still here you'd probably start an argument over this :-) but that won't stop me from saying it and meaning it: may the Witness look upon you, treasure you, and commemorate you in succeeding generations. -- ++brandon s. allbery flying with merlin! bsa@kf8nh.apk.net telotech's "loup-guru" :-) FORZA CREW! bsa@telotech.com Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!atmnet.net!usenet ~From: bob@linkline.com (Bob Clevenger) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:52:51 -0700 Organization: Not Bloody Likely! ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <322523be.15797652@news.linkline.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Reply-To: bob@linkline.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.67.165.121 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) wrote: >kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called >speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl >was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone >out there can help, please do." > >she raises her glass in a silent toast. I join you in that toast. I tried to think of words, but failed. -=Bob=- in Ontario, Calif. NRA, CRPA, SCA, IOOF, N6MLV I'm a politician's worst nightmare --- A voter with a memory! Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 16:58:17 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <501tr9$pui@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu In article , Terry L. Smith wrote: > >For some time after I once remarked that my NetCom server did not >pick up all the alt.callahans articles, he sent me emails explaining >the propagation of articles on USENET. A *lot* of emails explaining >that. Over and over *again*. I kept telling him that I really did >understand it, and he kept sending those articles. I don't understand >*that*, either. Hmm. May have something tangential to do with an argument he was having with a True Kook on another group who, among other things, excoriated him for not retracting his (rare) errors until the messages pointing them out actually had time to *propagate* *to* *his* *site*. Said kook, of course, didn't *ever* admit error. Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!netnews.com!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!eskimo!news ~From: glinda@eskimo.com (g.l.wilson) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker X-Nntp-Posting-Host: tia1.eskimo.com Message-ID: ~Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id) Organization: totally lacking X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.10 ~References: <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com> <9608270819.AA00523@192.80.10.188> <5004hu$od6@parlor.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 17:21:44 GMT ~Lines: 24 >In article <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com>, Randy Martens >writes: > Randy rummages around in his portfolio for a moment, pulls out a > small dilithium crystal and slaps it on the bar. > "Mike, Bacardi & Diet Coke for anyone who wants one, and mix me > one, please." "Mike, one of those for me, please?" ...and finding nothing at all to say... ***crash*** --glinda, thinking of a Kzin in the Summerlands -- glinda@eskimo.com "I have a life; I just don't have time for it." Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!mcsun!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail ~From: slywlf@aol.com (Slywlf) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 22:19:45 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) ~Lines: 16 ~Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <502uo1$nr7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader While I never crossed swords (or pens, or keyboards) with StM, (probably too much of a non-confrontational person), I read almost everything he posted with great interest. While I did not always like him, or, more precisely, his way of expressing himself, I was in awe of his brilliant mind. The occasional (too seldom, imho) flashes of humor were welcome delights, and he always could jump-start my brain even when I was too tired to care. I am truly sorry never to have "met" him properly as StM, or as Carl, and I will miss the 'tang' his presense made in Callahans. So, TO CARL, and his fascinating alter-ego StM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CRASH<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Your wisdom, strength of will, and willingness to share them will be sorely missed. Fewer flamewars is too big a price to pay for your loss. ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!utcsri!info.ecf!news ~From: "LIN KA-MING (Magus Firecow)" ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Sender: news@ecf.toronto.edu (News Administrator) Message-ID: <32249061.7BCC@ecf.toronto.edu> ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:30:57 GMT X-Nntp-Posting-Host: spark13.ecf Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.4 sun4m) Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility ~Lines: 21 A plaque on the south shore of Radiant Lake in Algonquin Park: "Perhaps in this neglected spot is laid Some heart once pregnant with celetial fire Whose hands the Rod of Empire might have swayed Or waked to ecstasy the living lyre." I don't know whether to wish that StM's resting in peace or that he's warring in the everafter as he seemed to here. I suspect that silence isn't something that StM would want, and I never met or knew Carl Lydick. So... <<>> I can imagine being chewed out even now for posting something I only suspect might be true, with no proof... Magus Firecow. ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.put.com!main.put.com!silence ~From: Silence and Shadow ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ~Sender: usenet@news.put.com (The Root) Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32235f17.181655040@news.ukonline.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <32235f17.181655040@news.ukonline.co.uk> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: main.put.com ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:58:55 GMT ~Lines: 22 "I feel horrible for asking this," Silence says quietly, "but the beginning of this thread seems to have completely passed me by, and I have a feeling that it's too important to miss. If anyone has saved the articles, I would appreciate them being forwarded." She searches for words and can't find any more. At last, she says helplessly, "I didn't really know Speaker, but I saw some of his posts while lurking on this group and others. I respect a lot of what he said, though not necessarily how he said it, and I know he touched a lot of lives. If anyone needs someone to talk to or a shoulder to lean on, I will gladly give whatever help I can. I wish there were an unawkward way to say this, but there isn't--you all have my sympathy and my commiseration." She lofts a glass towards the fireplace, joining a number of others, and settles back to listen quietly to the eulogies. Silence and Shadow, Freelancers Extraordinaire Sword and claws for hire -- English and HTML writing and editing Mental and emotional healing -- Advice given and taken Reasonable prices and many, many references; email for information ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!unixhub!finch.SLAC.Stanford.EDU!panetta ~From: panetta@finch.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (The Yendi) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Message-ID: ~Sender: news@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvd7n$7i9@eagle.ais.net> ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:04:17 GMT ~Lines: 18 In article , Roland X wrote: > > Indeed he would. And if he were alive, he'd come back and roast us >all for mourning him on flimsy evidence. The Yendi is still hanging around with a NutraSweet headache: "Flimsy evidence? I go to Caltech. I live in Pasadena. After kitten's post, I *went* to the police station and *SAW* the report. I do not think that this is flimsy evidence." --Yendi -- My opinions are mine...not SLAC's...not Caltech's...not DOE's...mine. (except by random, unforseeable coincidences) panetta@cithex.caltech.edu panetta@slac.stanford.edu Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!mozz.unh.edu!christa.unh.edu!mca ~From: mca@christa.unh.edu (Marc C Allain) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 21:26:53 GMT Organization: University of New Hampshire - Durham, NH ~Lines: 27 Message-ID: <502dit$88j@mozz.unh.edu> ~References: <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <4vvu4g$ik3@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: christa.unh.edu In article <> kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) writes: > >> "Now Kitten. Leslie may cry if she wishes." Patchmaker steps away >>for a moment to call in a request for 'Veteran of the Psychic Wars,' >>then returns. >> "I was thinking we'd do this out by the lake, but that may be to >>melancholy. Shall we dance, beloved Net-Goddess? And then some fond... >>well, intense remembrances?" > >"crying is good for the soul, i know....but i prefer to rage against >the dying of the light!" kitten holds out her hand for a dance with >patchmaker. > As some wonderful Miller tune comes on (Speaker and I shared (share?) a fondness for Glen Miller,) Patchmaker twirls the Net.Goddess out onto the floating dance floor. (He's ever so much better at dancing than Marc could ever dream of being.) "'Rage against the dying of the light.' Well, I see a certain loss of virtual volume, but never doubt that Speaker's legacy will live on. "When this dance is done, I will share some memories, but for now, first things first. (You dance divinely - naturally.)" -- If you need me, I'll be down in the lab, mixing metaphors Patchmaker Marc C. Allain mca@christa.unh.edu http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mca ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!jadmire ~From: jadmire@netcom.com (Joseph A. Admire) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Message-ID: Organization: 5 miles southeast of Manassas Battlefield X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:50:25 GMT ~Lines: 50 ~Sender: jadmire@netcom20.netcom.com David P. Murphy (dpm@access4.digex.net) wrote: : PhaseOfTheMoon looks around the bar. he's not drinking, he's not talking, : and it's a good bet that his eyes aren't focused on anything within the : room. : he shuffles a few pieces of paper in his hands for a while before finally : coming to a decision. the words come out slowly. : "I'm new here, and maybe i'm out of line to do this, but ya'll care about : the guy one way or another, so maybe you'd wanna know about this letter. : i wrote it, i mailed it, and i guess i'd do it again. comp.os.vms was the : best of newsgroups and the worst of newsgroups because of him --- : but i didn't want him fired and i sure as hell didn't want him dead." : he tacks the papers up on the wall at http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm : then just as slowly walks over to the bar. Joe notices the new arrival as he speaks his piece and tacks the letter to the bulletin board, then gets up from his table and reads the letter. : "i just wanted him to lighten up from his 'i can post anything i want' : attitude, 'cuz it made a lot of folks miserable, but he never understood : that there *was* one step i could take. then again, i got no idea : whether what i sent affected him at all." "Welcome, Phase. Sorry if I can't be more enthusiastic, but somehow this just isn't a day for going all hog-wild, I think." He considers a bit. "Several other people have said this already, but I'd also like to say that I don't hold you responsible in the least for Carl's death. The way I see it is, as contentious and sharp-tongued as he was, it was inevitable that someday, somenone, somewhere would finally issue the complaint that would go over critical mass and knock him off the Net. In fact, I'm really not certain your lettter was even a factor - when he disappeared, it was talked about here in a.c. that Carl was already in trouble with his supervisors at Caltech, because of his posting style and, perhaps more to the point, because he was spending so much time posting during what must have been working hours. And our own Jim Pierce has stated that, as long as a year ago, Carl already seemed to have been in bad odor with The Powers That Be, at least in the personnel section. So, I think there's no reason for you to carry on so..." : "Mike, i could really use a six-pack of pepsi, please." Joe digs in his pocket. "If you permit, I''d be glad to buy for you. I could use a refill myself. Mike, another St. Pauli Girl." -- Joe Admire (jadmire@netcom.com) (jadmire@mnsinc.com) (josepha150@aol.com) East Carolina 1985 (Go Pirates!)/GWU JD 1989/legal researcher for hire *Stevie Nicks is _still_ the queen of rock and roll.* Team OS/2 member * Web page now open at http://www.mnsinc.com/jadmire/ Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!jobone!news2.acs.oakland.edu!news.tacom.army.mil!ulowell.uml.edu!tribune.meitca.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!daily-planet.execpc.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 23:24:07 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <502ken$guj@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu >All of a sudden, Leslie realizes the irony...this will be the last time >Speaker's name is in the title of a thread... kitten starts giggling and can't stop...suddenly a bearded guy in a robe and sandles, wearing a toolbelt, and leaning on a wooden support comes out of the crowd to give her a hug and calm her down. -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.bright.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 23:26:25 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 21 Message-ID: <502kj1$gvi@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu >: (leslie, don't cry) >"I can't help it," Leslie says, "I wanted to meet him someday, and >give him a real hug, and scratch his ears. I'm sure he knew how >much I cared about him, but I still wanted the chance to *tell* >him, face to face," More tears spilling down her cheeks, she >adds, "This is the first time in my life I've ever lost someone >I really cared about." >Leslie. I thought he was too stubborn to die... "me, too....and the sonofabitch was supposed to CALL me if he needed anything. i feel like i just lost my brother all over again." kitten wonders if this has been a long week for everyone, or just her. -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 23:28:05 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: <502km5$h04@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <4vvu4g$ik3@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502dit$88j@mozz.unh.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu > As some wonderful Miller tune comes on (Speaker and I shared (share?) >a fondness for Glen Miller,) Patchmaker twirls the Net.Goddess out onto >the floating dance floor. (He's ever so much better at dancing than >Marc could ever dream of being.) > "'Rage against the dying of the light.' Well, I see a certain loss >of virtual volume, but never doubt that Speaker's legacy will live on. > "When this dance is done, I will share some memories, but for now, >first things first. (You dance divinely - naturally.)" "thank you...." -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!aries!miller ~From: miller@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Kelly Miller) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 00:40:00 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: aries.scs.uiuc.edu The Polymath writes: >Carl suffered from insulin dependent diabetes and all its attendant >consequences (pick a symptom, any symptom, he probably had it in >spades at some point). He also suffered from congestive heart failure >and was scheduled for 6x bypass surgery early this year, but changed >his mind for reasons likely known only to himself. (Supposedly, the >operation would have prolonged his life, but not improved its quality. >Carl decided it wasn't worth it). For what it's worth, Carl was not an insulin dependent diabetic, but a non-insulin dependent diabetic who took insulin. Not a major point, perhaps, but Carl always demanded precision... Kelly Miller just a lurker from m.h.d. Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!dby-ct1-08.ix.netcom.com!user ~From: rolandx@ix.netcom.com (Roland X) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 00:42:23 GMT Organization: Me? Organized? ;^) ~Lines: 57 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dby-ct1-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 28 5:42:23 PM PDT 1996 In article <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: > On 27 Aug 1996 14:49:45 GMT in alt.callahans, > barbara trumpinski said: > : kitten comes out of the folx room dressed in flame red. "by all the > : gods and goddesses that speaker didn't believe in, let's make merry > : and have the best damn wake we can." she lifts the rum and diet coke > : that has been handed to her. "to speaker, and to us all...this life > : is sometimes not big enough to hold us. let the circle be open but > : never broken." > > "Put the Animaniacs tapes in the VCR. He loved that show. And then > a lot of old B movies..." "Animaniacs." Roland smiles and shakes his head. "Appropriate...I _hate_ those obnoxious little twits." *sniff* > : radio free colorado(tm) starts playing: a medley of swing interspersed > : with the grateful dead and other random songs...but not 'suicide is > : painless'. > > "Truckin'. They have to play Truckin'. There was a thread once where > people were telling what the theme song to the movie of the story of > their life would be, and that's what he said." "Oh Light, why am I not surprised..." > : (leslie, don't cry) > > "I can't help it," Leslie says, "I wanted to meet him someday, and > give him a real hug, and scratch his ears. I'm sure he knew how > much I cared about him, but I still wanted the chance to *tell* > him, face to face," More tears spilling down her cheeks, she > adds, "This is the first time in my life I've ever lost someone > I really cared about." > > > Leslie. I thought he was too stubborn to die... Oh, why should the spirit of mortal be proud?/ Like a fast-flittering meteor, a fast-flying cloud,/ a flash of the lightning, a break of the wave/ he passes from this life to his rest in the grave. (William Knox-1824) "I remembered half of this from the issue of Crisis where the Flash dies. I reached into one of my boxes, pulled out a comic to see which box it was...and had Crisis 8 in my hand." "Cry if you need to, Leslie. We lose our loves all too soon...we have to honor them." A VR hug, if you want one. -- Truth beyond Paradox. Roland X, Freelance Immortal "Do not become your enemy to defeat your enemy." -epitaph, Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!news ~From: lightlrd@mail.tiac.net (The Unloved) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:51:54 GMT Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. ~Lines: 10 Message-ID: <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lightlrd.tiac.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 The Unloved pokes his head out from his dark corner. He looks confused and upset. "I know I've been wrapped up in my own problems, as of late... and as a result I missed something important. Can someone please tell about the dear departed... who he was and how it happened?" ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Chivalry is not dead. It just smells funny." -- The Unloved Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: "Lydia M. Uribe" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 07:51:47 -0700 Organization: Claremont Shelter for Maladjusted Singers ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3225AE83.6A7C@ibm.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <4vu4r8$3ai@babylon5.babcom.com> <3223B058.11AE@Titan.SFASU.EDU> <322478D0.4CA4@lvld.hp.com> ~Reply-To: uribe@ibm.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ont-ca11-33.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 9:56:49 AM CDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I) Randy Martens wrote: > Soprano smiles through her tears. "Sorry, I never saw Carl scowling. Despite (or perhaps because of?) his Kzinti persona here, Carl in person was never anything but polite and soft-spoken in my presence." Soprano -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lydia M. Uribe, Rancho Cucamonga, CA uribe@ix.netcom.com | | Cats, quilts, and diving: what more could anyone ask? | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!mcsun!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!firesong.demon.co.uk!firesong ~From: Firesong ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:09:04 +0100 Organization: SPand Enterprises ~Lines: 33 Distribution: world Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: firesong.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: firesong.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 1.12 Firesong notes that barbara trumpinski spake thusly. >kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called >speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl >was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone >out there can help, please do." > >she raises her glass in a silent toast. > And he reads the other posts before returning here to place his own. Goodbye Speaker, our minds seldom met, our attitudes almost never, but you were right about the facts, you were always that. Hey Mike, have you got a good dark mead? A nice moody drink, mead. You can glower in th corner over it properly. To Speaker to Minerals, not a man to trifle with. > >-- >kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski >/\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" >{=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're > ~ not anywhere at all?' -- "It's not unknown for Men to use sex to get what they want." - Daphne "How can we use sex to get what we want? Sex _IS_ what we want." - Frasier Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!betty.bway.net!news ~From: nyjtm ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:15:10 -0700 Organization: bway.net, part of Outernet, Inc. in New York City ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3225B3FE.3A6A@bway.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial12.bway.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) The Tin Woodman sits slumped at a table in the corner, his oil can reassuringly near. rohr@bham.mindspring.com wrote: > > Thinking is always a good thing, and it is always wiser to engage the brain > before applying the fingers to the keyboard. Damn, I wish I could say what I > want, but it doesn't seem to be working too well. It figures. "I think that puts StM's approach to the universe *very* well." > Mike, a bacardi and coke, please. "One for me too, Mike." The Tin Woodman joins the crowd waiting for the chalk line, his visor pulled well down over his eyes. - Jim Mullins Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.radix.net!news ~From: "Chris Barnhart (TechnoPup)" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 01:16:36 GMT Organization: RadixNet Internet Services ~Lines: 91 Message-ID: <01bb9548$03bca820$22b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com> <4vvd7n$7i9@eagle.ais.net> <32249D7C.128F@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin17.annex5.radix.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 A quiet voice begins somewhere at the back of the room CROSSING THE BAR Sunset and evening star, And one clear call for me! And may there be no moaning of the bar, When I put out to sea, But such a tide as moving seems asleep, Too full for sound and foam, When that which drew from out the boundless deep Turns again home. Twilight and evening bell, And after that the dark! And may there be no sadness of farewell, When I embark; For though from out our bourne of Time and Place The flood may bear me far, I hope to see my Pilot face to face When I have crossed the bar. ....those who look see pup wipe a very old tear from his eye as he tucks the yellowed bit of paper with the nicely engraved cursive writing back into the folds of his jacket -- ______________________________________________________________________ _ Chris Barnhart - TechnoPup | "Verbosity leads to unclear, cbarnhart@radix.net | inarticulate things." http://www.radix.net/~cbarnhart | -Dan Quayle ________________________________|_____________________________________ _ Looking Wolf wrote in article <32249D7C.128F@rand.nidlink.com>... > Roland X wrote: > > > > > Carl would, if he were truly dead, be rolling over in his grave over the > > > self-serving weeping occuring here at this moment. You tip your vain > > > and virtual glasses to yourselves: no other. Enjoy your sentimental > > > trip. Carl would have none of it. Carl needed help in his present, > > > not in this one. Let it be. > > > > Indeed he would. And if he were alive, he'd come back and roast us > > all for mourning him on flimsy evidence. > > As for that mourning, I'm quite certain that he knew enough about > > the grieving process to know that a funeral is held for the survivors > > as much as, if not more than, for the dead. We mourn for his passing > > because we are dimished thereby. > > And if we wish him well in whatever lies beyond, that is our business. > > The wolf nods. "Grief is almost always for those left behind, and there > is nothing wrong with that. Knowing that one for whom you care is gone, > effectively forever, is a painful, empty feeling. Just because someone > is large-hearted enough to want no grief at their passing does not mean > they would despise those who are hurt by it." > > ...Looking Wolf > > Sunset, and evening star, > and one clear call for me. > And may there be no moaning of the bar > when I put out to sea. > > --Alfred, Lord Tennyson > (title of poem and proper scansion regretfully forgotten) > ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!jobone!news2.acs.oakland.edu!condor.ic.net!branch.com!aanews.merit.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!esti ~From: esti@haven.uchicago.edu (Paul A. Estin) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker X-Nntp-Posting-Host: haven.uchicago.edu Message-ID: ~Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: U. Michigan Cognitive Psychology ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 02:18:56 GMT ~Lines: 53 Paul the Snark, an old-timer long absent (last here regularly in March '93), pops his head into the Place briefly (thanking to Elaine for forwarding the bad news to him)... "I was going to say more, but I saw a couple of Polymath's posts which probably summed up my reaction, so I'll just reiterate what he said..." The Polymath wrote: >I considered Carl Lydick my friend and Speaker to Minerals an occasional >ally and occasional embarrassment. I'm going to miss them both. ... >I wish more of the people who knew Carl only through his net persona >could have met him in person. He still had his faults (a whole >different set), but he was also soft spoken, gentle and polite. I >don't know what it is about the net that brings out the worst in some >people like that, but Carl did have another side. I did have the good fortune to meet Carl in person, shortly before I left a.c (due in some part to the tone in which he posted as StM). Carl was indeed much more pleasant in person that I would've expected, and I'm sorry he's gone from this world. Paul Andrew Estin "Haiku's inventor U. Michigan Cognitive Psychology must have had seven fingers estin@umich.edu on his middle hand." P.S. As an aside: Yes, the net and its anonymity does sometimes bring out the worst in folks, but I think the phenomenon is more general than that-- it's not so much that *people* change as that the entire nature of net *interaction* is different from in Real Life (iRL). It's partly due to missing RL conversational cues, and partly due to having a lack of personal connection (which is not quite the same as "anonymity"). IME, both problems are minimized, to a surprising degree, when the folks interacting are those who *do* already know each other in Real Life, even if only briefly. For example... I didn't start posting on a.c until after I'd been to a RealSpace Gathering, and I retain a sense of civility to anyone I've met there-- even when I think they're full of BS!-- that I'm less capable of with those I haven't met iRL. Similarly, after leaving Callahan's I co-founded a private general-topic discussion list on email; because many of us know each other from RL, interactions tend to be much smoother, for a variety of reasons. However, sometimes we did have people leave the list after repeated disagreements; in all such cases, those leaving and those providing the most pressure to leave were folks who had NOT met each other in RL. Indeed, I was often mystified that there was a problem brewing in the first place, since I'd RL-met both sides of people and was used to "giving the benefit of the doubt" whenever *either* side's remarks were potentially ambiguous. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!munnari.OZ.AU!metro!metro!news ~From: alh@Physics.usyd.edu.au (Shonias) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 02:52:32 GMT Organization: School of Physics, University of Sydney, Australia ~Lines: 34 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <5030lg$qmg@metro.usyd.edu.au> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: suphys.physics.usyd.edu.au In article <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com>, Leslie wrote: >"I can't help it," Leslie says, "I wanted to meet him someday, and >give him a real hug, and scratch his ears. I'm sure he knew how >much I cared about him, but I still wanted the chance to *tell* >him, face to face," More tears spilling down her cheeks, she >adds, "This is the first time in my life I've ever lost someone >I really cared about." Shonias has been quiet listening to others and not knowing what to say, or whether to say anything. She didnt even know why she didn't know what to say, and then this reminded her: > >Leslie. I thought he was too stubborn to die... "I've just been too numb to say anything, or indeed feel anything to inspire any words. My beagle died on Sunday, after a short illness, I thought she was too stubborn to die too. And I loved her more than I've ever loved anyone else. I'm not sure what I'm saying, just that I missed StM when he wasn't here temporarily, I know I will miss him when I've got emotions left to use, amd I'm not ordering a bacardi and diet coke, because I can't stand the stuff." Shonias stands laughing and crying and remembering the souls that have departed recently (three friends of hers, one of someone else's in a two week period.) Shonias Q'Tari -- *********************************** Thunder and lightning in the dark Light up the fires inside my heart. *********************************** Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nidlink.com!usenet ~From: Looking Wolf ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:38:23 -0700 Organization: NetLink, Inc. ~Lines: 42 Message-ID: <3225D58F.315D@rand.nidlink.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com> <4vvd7n$7i9@eagle.ais.net> <32249D7C.128F@rand.nidlink.com> <01bb9548$03bca820$22b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm6-5.nidlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) Chris Barnhart (TechnoPup) wrote: > > A quiet voice begins somewhere at the back of the room > > CROSSING THE BAR > > Sunset and evening star, > And one clear call for me! > And may there be no moaning of the bar, > When I put out to sea, > > But such a tide as moving seems asleep, > Too full for sound and foam, > When that which drew from out the boundless deep > Turns again home. > > Twilight and evening bell, > And after that the dark! > And may there be no sadness of farewell, > When I embark; > > For though from out our bourne of Time and Place > The flood may bear me far, > I hope to see my Pilot face to face > When I have crossed the bar. > > ....those who look see pup wipe a very old tear from his eye as he > tucks the yellowed bit of paper with the nicely engraved cursive > writing back into the folds of his jacket The wolf listens attentively as Pup finishes the poem. "Yes," he whispers at its conclusion. "Thank you." The wolf smiles sadly. "I really wish I had found this Place earlier," he says. "I was waiting anxiously for Speaker's return. I really wanted a chance to argue with him. Now that will have to wait a few decades." He rises and walks out of the bar. The faint sound of mournful wolfsong can be heard from somewhere outside. ...Looking Wolf Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nidlink.com!usenet ~From: Looking Wolf ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:45:59 -0700 Organization: NetLink, Inc. ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3225D757.53CB@rand.nidlink.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3225B3FE.3A6A@bway.net> <504769$agg@izzy4.izzy.net> <504ca9$il@decaxp.harvard.edu> <504et3$led@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm6-5.nidlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) Gareth L Owen wrote: > > "I reckon there should be a 'Tycho Crater' web page > or something. Something kinda permanent. Somewhere > we can go and remember." "That is an excellent idea. I'm willing to donate both the space for the page and the time for designing it, if someone will but tell me where and how to retrieve all the Plaque posts. "We cannot go to the real Plaque (if there's any justice in the Universe, there's really one up there), but we can build a monument here." ...Looking Wolf Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!ra.nrl.navy.mil!dbriggs ~From: dbriggs@rira5.nrl.navy.mil (Daniel Briggs) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 04:24:30 GMT Organization: Naval Research Laboratory ~Lines: 98 Message-ID: <50361u$4ji@ra.nrl.navy.mil> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rira5.nrl.navy.mil Dan'l opens the door, and wanders back to Mike. Not too many folks in the bar place the face, but there are a few. He's still as tall and bearded and bespectacled as he ever was, with a tendency to dress in blues, browns and black. A dollar bill goes down on the bar. "The Bacardi & Diet Coke routine is a nice touch, but I think I'll pass, Mike. I never could stand the stuff, and after high school I grew up enough to say so. Carl being the individualist that he was, perhaps it's a better tribute that I drink my own preference. How about a Gin and Tonic? Having foregone the change and stepped towards the chalk line, he's not really sure what he wants to say. *think* "I'm not even sure I can say that I liked Carl. I first showed up in the Place more than 6 years ago, and I think I did then. Or at least I tried to. Certainly we had enough common background that I kept feeling like we *ought* to get on better than we did. I can be a real stickler for precision in language myself, and I've always respected his logical argument and dedication to his ideals. I actually probably got on with him as well as anyone but his close friends, in that I was never personally the object of his flames, but still managed to occasionally exchange civil posts or email with him. But he could be a real *mean* bastard, and I like to think that I am not so by nature. I strive to avoid being mean without the strongest provocation. I suspect that Carl probably felt much the same way, but apparently he found such provocation nearly everywhere. "Will I miss him? Yes and no. Yes I'll miss many aspects of him. And I'm sure that comp.os.vms lost one of its most valuable resources. But frankly, I'll probably also show up here more often than I would have otherwise. Is it just me, or has the character of the flame wars, both from and about Carl gotten hotter in the last couple of years? Maybe I just lost patience with it and nothing has changed but me. But for whatever reason I lost the ability to read past it. I've never liked killfiles. It just seems like looking at the world through blinders to me. I don't like the feeling of not knowing what I'm not seeing. I read news by title, selecting threads, so I don't read most flamewars. But even when I don't choose to read flame threads, they do color the character of the group. So when I got tired of people yelling at each other for the ooompteenth time, I left. I don't hold it against him, though. In the last few years I'd come to regard him as something of an elemental force of nature. He was who he was, in a way that few of us are. But in exactly the same way I might move back from a campfire that is too hot for comfort, I sometimes distanced myself from Carl and the areas he frequented. One doesn't curse a fire for being hot. The obvious difference and counterargument is "Yes, but a person doesn't have a choice about being hot, and a person does have a choice about being mean." Y'know, with Carl I really wonder about that. "I caught him once or twice on quite unambiguous points of astronomy. I don't think he ever admitted he was wrong in so many words, but somewhere along the way he ended up owing me a beer over it. He wasn't very good about admitting he was wrong, certainly. For a couple of years I was looking forward to collecting it, since I was really curious about the man behind the keyboard. But I never got around to it, and as the flame wars around him grew hotter, I lost interest in doing so. The last time I visited Pasadena I didn't look him up. Now I wish I had. "Lest I be thought too crass when talking about Carl, whom after I all I never actually met, I'll comment that I stood up at my own father's funeral, while crying, and called him a bastard in front of maybe 400 or 500 people. I pointed out that he had been an alcoholic, and was sometimes very difficult to live with. I then pointed out that the crowd filling the chapel to standing room only and spilling out into the lobby and more was proof of how much he'd meant to everyone there. How strong were his great good points, to be outbalance his flaws and still mean so much to so many people! I upset some people doing that. But I called it as I saw it for my father, and I can do no less for Carl. I trust the parallel is obvious. "Well Carl, you are gone and the world is a less varied place without you. As annoying as you could be, I think we're poorer for your absence. I hope you're at peace. Dan'l ponders his now empty glass, and the forming tradition of unbroken glasses in the fire place. He turns back to the house. "Folks, I'm sorry. That just doesn't seem like quite the right thing to me. We're building a little shrine of glasses and photos here. That fireplace is meant to be used, and someday soon *someone* is going to have to clean it out and deal with all the clinging emotional baggage we've left stuck to those glasses. I'll not add to that person's burden. All things and all people pass. For me, the plaque is enough. "Carl, if you can hear me, or to your memory if you cannot: I hope you respected me as I did you. I'm glad to have known you. Dan'l hurls his glass into the fireplace, but his juggler's aim is true. The glass sails past the unbroken stack and shatters alone on the bricks behind. *CRASH* | Dr. Daniel Briggs (dbriggs@rira.nrl.navy.mil) [ USPA D-18486 ] | Naval Research Laboratory / US Naval Observatory [ DoD #387 ] | 4555 Overlook Ave. SW, Washington, DC 20375 (202) 767-8474 | Dart: MC Ot+W H 5 Y L+ W C+ I++ T++ A+ H+ S+ V+ P++/P B+ Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 09:25:11 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 10 Message-ID: <504987$hsj@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> <502kj1$gvi@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu Kitten: >wonders if this has been a long week for everyone, or just her. Its been a hellva week. Hugs, Dreamy Jim. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 09:40:46 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <504a5e$nv2@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu >"He--was a lot of different things, to different people. > >"He was someone I loved." Thank you Leslie, you worded it better than I could. Hugs, DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 09:48:44 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <504akc$j3g@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu John Edwards wrote: >shots? I've personally never heard this (although, I'll be the >first to admit, I'm a little out of touch with newer trends of >diabetes care) It was because his blood sugar and insulin level fluctuated. He had to be very careful and check it on a regular basis. A couple of years ago he had to go to the hospital for it. He coughed up blood in the emergency room. He had to keep from passing out as evidently they misdiagnosed him in the er. DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!news ~From: Ager or Persson ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:33:35 -0600 Organization: Internet Connect, Inc. The Wisconsin ISP 414-476-4266 http://www.inc.net ~Lines: 81 Message-ID: <3225D46F.6934@discover-net.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.230.195.83 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I) Leslie (and somebocy else!) wrote: > > : radio free colorado(tm) starts playing: a medley of swing interspersed > : with the grateful dead and other random songs...but not 'suicide is > : painless'. > > "Truckin'. They have to play Truckin'. There was a thread once where > people were telling what the theme song to the movie of the story of > their life would be, and that's what he said." Truckin' -------- Truckin', got my chips cashed in, Keep truckin', like the do-dah man Together, more or less in line, Just keep truckin' on. Arrows of neon and flashin' marquees out on main street, Chicago, New York, Detroit and it's all on the same street. Your typical city involved in a typical daydream. Hang it up and see what tommorrow brings. Dallas, got a soft machine; Houston, too close to New Orleans; New York's got the ways and means; But just won't let you be, oh no. Most of the cats that you meet on the streets speak of true love. Most of the time they're sittin' and cryin' at home. One of these days they know they better get goin' Out of the door and down on the street all alone. Truckin', like the do-dah man Once told me "Gotta play your hand. Sometimes your cards ain't worth a dime If you don't lay'em down." Sometimes the light's all shinin' on me; Other times I can barely see. Lately it occurs to me What a long, strange trip it's been. Now what in the world ever became of sweet Jane? She's lost her sparkle, you know she isn't the same. Livin' on reds, and vitamin C, and cocaine, All a friend can say is ain't it a shame. Truckin', up to Buffalo, Been thinkin' you got to mellow slow. It takes time, you pick a place to go And just keep truckin' on. Sittin' and starin' out of the hotel window. Got a tip they're gonna kick the door in again. I like to get some sleep before I travel, But if you got a warrant, I guess you're gonna come in. Busted, down on Bourbon Street. Set up, like a bowling pin. Knocked down, it get's to wearin' thin, They just won't let you be, oh no. You're sick of hangin' around and you'd like to travel; Get tired of travelin' and you want to settle down. I guess they can't revoke your soul for tryin', Get out of the door and light out and look all around. Sometimes the light's all shinin' on me; Other times I can barely see. Lately it occurs to me What a long, strange trip it's been. Truckin' , I'm a goin' home, Whoa whoa baby, back where I belong, Back home, sit down and patch my bones And git back truckin' on. Hey now git back truckin' home. Beth Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.izzy.net!news.izzy.net!not-for-mail ~From: sewiv@news.izzy.net (Sanford E. Walke IV) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 09:50:01 -0400 Organization: Isthmus Corporation ~Lines: 8 Message-ID: <504769$agg@izzy4.izzy.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3225B3FE.3A6A@bway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: izzy.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] I know this is a dumb question, but someone is saving this thread, right? This needs to go in the a.c archives. -- Sandy sewiv@izzy.net "Fatty tissue, convolutions, chemicals and tiny lightning....this is all my head has to work with, so I cut it a lot of slack." -- JT I don't speak for anyone but myself, and sometimes not even that. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: glo@io.com (Gareth L Owen) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 11:01:39 -0500 Organization: Illuminati Online ~Lines: 29 Message-ID: <504et3$led@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3225B3FE.3A6A@bway.net> <504769$agg@izzy4.izzy.net> <504ca9$il@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com In article <504ca9$il@decaxp.harvard.edu>, Claudia Mastroianni wrote: >Sanford E. Walke IV (sewiv@news.izzy.net) wrote: >: I know this is a dumb question, but someone is saving this thread, right? > >I've been considering it. But all of a.c is already archived. What I think >I may do is make this the impetus to dig up all the plaque posts I can, as I >once told DJ I would. > >: This needs to go in the a.c archives. > >Of course, any time anyone nominates a "favorite post" for my favorite >posts page, it goes up as soon as I can html it (minimal html). > >Claudia >http://www.tiac.net/users/cmarie/callahans-index.html "I reckon there should be a 'Tycho Crater' web page or something. Something kinda permanent. Somewhere we can go and remember." The Stranger -- Gareth L Owen |\_/| Roleplayer, karate man, shadowrunner glo@io.com (o o) Itinerant mountaineer and cynical idealist finger for PGP key \_/ http://www.io.com/~glo/ "Think for yourself - that means YOU citizen!" Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.PBI.net!usenet ~From: The Polymath ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:16:35 -0700 Organization: Polymath Enterprises ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <322608B3.33A2@pacbell.net> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~Reply-To: polymath@pacbell.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-206-171-250-76.vntrcs.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) Alan B. Combs wrote: >In article <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) wrote: >>Why on earth would a non-Insulin dependent diabetic take >>shots? ... >... in IDDM (insulin dependent diabetes melletis, according to >the modern jargon), the pancreas does *not* produce insulin. In NIDDM, >the pancreas does produce it, but perhaps not enough ... My understanding is that, towards the end, Carl's body stopped producing insulin altogether and he became totally insulin dependent. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP) polymath@pacbell.net <<<===PLEASE NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS http://www.babcom.com/polymath <<<===AND NEW HOME PAGE URL (818) 882-6309 Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!emetine.phr.utexas.edu!user ~From: ACombs@mail.utexas.edu (Alan B. Combs) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:12:40 -0500 Organization: College of Pharmacy, Univ. of Texas ~Lines: 100 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: emetine.phr.utexas.edu On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:58:45 -0500 in alt.callahans, Alan B. Combs said: Leslie: >All of a sudden, Leslie realizes the irony...this will be the last time >Speaker's name is in the title of a thread... [ Alan: Very excellent posting, Leslie. As well as helping your grieving process, this will be very helpful to many of the rest of us. I have been emotionally wiped the last couple of days, along with many others. Alan (First Posting): >: I did not like his anger (or at least what I perceived as anger, though he >: said it was not) and his intolerance for the fuzzy, ambiguous, >: easy-to-misinterpret nature of words. I do affirm the strong, wonderful, >: helpful resource he was. He fought ignorance, diabetes, and congestive >: heart failure. I wonder if lack of hope for the future, and similar lack >: of hope for the present contributed to the anger we saw at the end of his >: postings. Until we are able to walk in his shoes, perhaps, even the anger >: and flames should be forgiven. Leslie: >"Don't jump to conclusions. There were a lot of flames then, true, >but don't forget that he was involved in defending himself against >misinterpretations. And perhaps it was just chemically pure chance >that several subjects came up at once that fit his criteria for >'things which deserve to be flamed.' Alan: This possibility is stipulated. Leslie: >Painting him as being so >unself-aware of his own emotional state does him a major disservice." Alan: I feel this is an example of the all too frequently fuzzy and maleable meanings of words, resulting in the sending of messages that were not intended. I did not mean to imply that Carl was self-unaware. To the contrary, I believe he was *highly* self-aware, something that would clearly add to the angst of his situation. I apologize, if my posting was interpreted otherwise. Alan (First Posting): >: To Carl J. Lydick, a *man*. The journey is not over. Albeit, you >: rejected the concept, may God's grace go with you. Leslie: >"I hope you aren't referring to the God of the Old and New Testament. >StM really hated that guy a lot. The God of the Deists, he'd be >willing to go along with..." Alan: Yeah, I was referring to the God of the Testaments -- and I did do it on purpose. Very clearly, Carl did not like any aspect about Him. My only response is that the God that Carl hated and the God I cannot, dare not hate are *not* the same Person, even if the same name is used. Inasmuch as we believers have, by our behaviors, provided Carl (and others) with evidence for his beliefs, we will be held accountable. On the other hand, one of the frequent comments people have made in this thread is about Carl's inability or refusal to concede that there might be any legit interpretation of what was said, other than his. I think that ambiguity in conveyed meaning, even though none was intended, is one of the tragedies of human existence. Because of this aspect of Carl's nature, his ambiguity-blindness, I suspect he would not have been capable of receiving any theological argument, not matter how well-framed it might have been. Thus, I have not gone deeply into apologetics (explanation and interpretation of doctrine) in several of the recent relevant threads. I admit this may be a cop-out, however. Finally, (as was developed by C.S. Lewis), it is much better to be a person that hates God, rather than one that is apathetic. Hate is active, the person cares, and God can deal with that. When a person just does not give a rat's ass, that person cannot be moved. Alan (First Posting): >: C R A S H (then hugs and tears around) Leslie: >Thank you. Alan: Also, Leslie, thank you. Your comments, history, and caring continue to be very helpful. This is my second version of this message. I was wrestling with myself as to whether I should just email this to you, or more generally post it to the friends in alt.callahans. I had just chosen the latter when my computer bombed. I think some of my initial wording was stronger, but it is gone forever. So be it. -- Alan B. Combs College of Pharmacy University of Texas Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!emetine.phr.utexas.edu!user ~From: ACombs@mail.utexas.edu (Alan B. Combs) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:21:56 -0500 Organization: College of Pharmacy, Univ. of Texas ~Lines: 28 Message-ID: ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: emetine.phr.utexas.edu In article <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) wrote: > Wait a minute. > Why on earth would a non-Insulin dependent diabetic take > shots? I've personally never heard this (although, I'll be the > first to admit, I'm a little out of touch with newer trends of > diabetes care) > (BTW, I've been insulin dependent since I was 14) > Would you mind explaining this? > Briefly, John, in IDDM (insulin dependent diabetes melletis, according to the modern jargon), the pancreas does *not* produce insulin. In NIDDM, the pancreas does produce it, but perhaps not enough, particularly if you stress its capacity to produce adequate amounts of insulin. They used to call this maturity-onset (vs. juvenile) diabetes. (Parenthetically, drugs that lower blood glucose only work in NIDDM. They increase its release, or increase its efficacy, depending on the drug.) Alan -- Alan B. Combs College of Pharmacy University of Texas Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.cs.utah.edu!news.cc.utah.edu!news ~From: Kate ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:45:01 -0700 Organization: My what? ~Lines: 36 Message-ID: <32261D6D.4B2C@hsc.utah.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kdullum.med.utah.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Firesong wrote: > > Firesong notes that barbara trumpinski spake > thusly. > >kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called > >speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl > >was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone > >out there can help, please do." > > > >she raises her glass in a silent toast. > > > > And he reads the other posts before returning here to place his own. > > Goodbye Speaker, our minds seldom met, our attitudes almost never, but > you were right about the facts, you were always that. > > To Speaker to Minerals, not a man to trifle with. > "I didn't know Speaker at all," Kate says, ordering another drink. "I think I interacted with him on one thread (I had a reference handy that day). To be honest, I was a bit frightened of incurring his wrath, which I observed in several threads on which I lurked. "He struck me as a brilliant, troubled individual. What was bloody obvious to him, wasn't always so clear to those he was talking to, it seems to me. "To Speaker, and to Carl. May he have found the afterlife or reincarnation he wished or the bliss of oblivion if he didn't want an afterlife." <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kate Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:57:21 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32255afe.3360926@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co13-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 3:58:05 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 The Ever-so-wise lightlrd@mail.tiac.net (The Unloved) once said: ->The Unloved pokes his head out from his dark corner. He looks ->confused and upset. "I know I've been wrapped up in my own problems, ->as of late... and as a result I missed something important. Can ->someone please tell about the dear departed... who he was and how it ->happened?" Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, depends on how you look at it) Speaker apparently lost his net access before you got here. I think Leslie summed him up better than I can. I do know that he made me *think* several times. John Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:01:32 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 32 Message-ID: <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co13-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 4:02:16 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 The Ever-so-wise miller@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Kelly Miller) once said: ->The Polymath writes: -> ->>Carl suffered from insulin dependent diabetes and all its attendant ->>consequences (pick a symptom, any symptom, he probably had it in ->>spades at some point). He also suffered from congestive heart failure ->>and was scheduled for 6x bypass surgery early this year, but changed ->>his mind for reasons likely known only to himself. (Supposedly, the ->>operation would have prolonged his life, but not improved its quality. ->>Carl decided it wasn't worth it). -> ->For what it's worth, Carl was not an insulin dependent diabetic, but a ->non-insulin dependent diabetic who took insulin. -> ->Not a major point, perhaps, but Carl always demanded precision... -> Wait a minute. Why on earth would a non-Insulin dependent diabetic take shots? I've personally never heard this (although, I'll be the first to admit, I'm a little out of touch with newer trends of diabetes care) (BTW, I've been insulin dependent since I was 14) Would you mind explaining this? John Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nidlink.com!usenet ~From: Looking Wolf ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:46:07 -0700 Organization: NetLink, Inc. ~Lines: 48 Message-ID: <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-21.nidlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159014 Chris Barnhart wrote: > > I absolutely disagree. It *did* bring out the worst in him. Calling > someone a moron or shit for brains or anything else like that hardly > EVER causes them to think. And, as anal-retentive and nit picky as > Carl was, it should have been a fairly obvious distinction for him > that saying someone is stupid is much different than saying something > someone says is stupid. > Just because he was bright doesn't give him special license to treat > people like crap on an almost (from my perspective) continuous basis. > Anything StM might have had to say to me regarding science, I can > read from a book without the insults, thank you very much. > My impressions of Carl's flaming tendencies were that he had a lot of > inner rage he couldn't take out elsewhere, that he had a terminal > Napoleonic complex, that he had little regards for how anyone felt, > other than himself. "I had wondered about this myself," says the wolf, "so, after I learned a bit more about Carl (posthumously, unfortunately), I asked a friend of mine who is a psychologist. She said that Carl's medical conditions could easily have affected his personality. "Diabetes can cause mood swings, and even mild personality disorders, as the brain is continually short-changed in its food supply. Also, Carl had congestive heart disease, I have been told, and was scheduled for a sextuple bypass operation. He must have been in incredible pain. That pain, combined with whatever medication he was taking, could have caused long-term problems, including his general irascibility. "There is also this to consider: a number of people said that he was soft-spoken in person. It could be that it was only online that he was able to vent all the anger and pain he was in, and so it was the online communities that bore the brunt. "One last thought: I read that Carl refused the bypass operation, 'for reasons known only to himself'. That sort of seemingly irrational act just might have been due to encroaching arteriosclerosis, which does not only affect the elderly, and which can make someone extremely edgy and angry. "Pain does strange things to the brain, and diabetes doesn't help. While this does not necessarily excuse bad behavior (and I doubt Carl would want an excuse anyway), it may help others understand it." ...Looking Wolf Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: "Lydia M. Uribe" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:35:31 -0700 Organization: Claremont Shelter for Maladjusted Singers ~Lines: 51 Message-ID: <32263753.193C@ibm.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> ~Reply-To: uribe@ibm.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ont-ca7-12.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 7:40:39 PM CDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I) Leslie wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:51:54 GMT in alt.callahans, > The Unloved said: > : The Unloved pokes his head out from his dark corner. He looks > : confused and upset. "I know I've been wrapped up in my own problems, > : as of late... and as a result I missed something important. Can > : someone please tell about the dear departed... who he was and how it > : happened?" > > Leslie smiles wryly. "A lot of folks...myself included...tended to > refer to him as 'that s.o.b.' 'Dear departed...' doesn't *quite* > seem to fit Speaker-to-Minerals... > > "We're not sure yet just how he died...my god, we don't even know > WHEN he died, I just realized...we only know he was discovered dead > by his landlord last Friday, the 23rd. > > "As to who he was...ah well, that's not easy. His name was Carl J. > Lydick, and he was 40 years old. He was a VAX/VMS god and was the > terror and genius of comp.os.vms as well as other groups, like > misc.health.diabetes, and alt.callahans. His a.c. personna was > that of a Kzin from the Niven _Ringworld_ universe (but I always > privately believed he was a Kzin who'd been raised by Vulcans...) > > "He's listed in the Net.Legends FAQ maintained by Dave DeLaney > (in part 4), but it's an outdated entry by now. > > "He was the original immoveable object, and that inspired many to try to > play irresistable force...and a lot of them failed, rather spectacularly. > > "He was complex and complicated and just plain didn't *think* the same > way most other folks do, although most people tried to fit him into > a category they were more familiar with, causing them to misunderstand > him by quite a wide margin. And often he didn't take the time and effort > to explain himself--until he'd started an argument... > > "He--was a lot of different things, to different people. > > "He was someone I loved." > > Leslie. Thanks, Leslie... Soprano -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lydia M. Uribe, Rancho Cucamonga, CA uribe@ibm.net| | Cats, quilts, and diving: what more could anyone ask? | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!mcsun!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news2.interlog.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 14:36:04 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 44 Message-ID: <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:22:30 -0700 in alt.callahans, The Polymath said: : I wish more of the people who knew Carl only through his net persona : could have met him in person. He still had his faults (a whole : different set), but he was also soft spoken, gentle and polite. I : don't know what it is about the net that brings out the worst in some : people like that, but Carl did have another side. "The net didn't 'bring out the worst in him,' not in the sense that you mean it, I think. Over and over and over again, every time the subject came up, he repeated one thing: his flames were deliberate and calculated for effect, the effect of making it *crystal clear* what he thought of something. The more he disagreed with something, the more important it was to him that there be no chance that anyone anywhere might mistake him for agreeing, instead. Pure selfishness on his part; but the effect of his flames on the receipient was a non-issue to him, with the exception of his intent to make them *think* about what they'd said. "One of the precepts he lived by was the idea that inaction is itself an action; that it is an action to chose not to act. And that lead to the ethic he held to, that if he saw something that was wrong or inaccurate, he had to act to correct it; he believed that not acting to correct a wrong made a person thereafter partially responsible for the consequences of that wrong. And if a thing was wrong, no matter how large or small, he tackled it with equal force. Sometimes that meant he went after mosquitoes with an elephant gun...but, yet, the I can count the times he was mistaken about there being a mosquito on the fingers of one hand. I think he was rather universally perceived as 'overreacting'--but, to his way of thinking, his reactions were exactly what was required. "The way I always described him was that he was an unreasonable son of a bitch--but he wasn't *unreasonably* unreasonable. He was the original Nit-Picker From Hell[tm], though, and didn't argue with me when I said that he could be tediously pedantic at times." Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mcsun!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news2.interlog.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 14:48:44 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: <504omc$5ov@zot.io.org> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:09:04 +0100 in alt.callahans, Firesong said: : Goodbye Speaker, our minds seldom met, our attitudes almost never, but : you were right about the facts, you were always that. "No he wasn't. He screwed up sometimes, once in a while in a big way, too. He was, after all, only human..." : To Speaker to Minerals, not a man to trifle with. "You got that right. It was hard to tease him too, he always took me so *literally*...I teased him that I was going to have to start putting a tag on things just to make sure he didn't miss the point..." Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.wildstar.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!ultra.sonic.net!miwok!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: "Lydia M. Uribe" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:25:58 -0700 Organization: Claremont Shelter for Maladjusted Singers ~Lines: 56 Message-ID: <32264326.10BD@ibm.net> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <5019uv$659@zot.io.org> <32249C8F.51DF@pacbell.net> ~Reply-To: uribe@ibm.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ont-ca7-12.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 8:31:14 PM CDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I) The Polymath wrote: > Leslie wrote: > >"He said that a *BIG* part of the reason for *postponing* (AFAIK) the > >surgery was that he was very reluctant to burden someone with the > >responsibility of ordering the plug to be pulled, should the surgery > >result in his becoming a vegetable. He didn't want to screw up the lady's > >life, even if it perhaps cost him his." ... > > "The lady" may wish to comment herself when she gets to this post. > I can testify she was far more concerned for Carl's health than any > inconvenience it might have caused her and repeatedly tried to > contact him for details, paperwork, etc. While I admire his motives, > I think, at the end of the day, he did her an injustice and a > disservice. Soprano smiles sadly at the Polymath, and says softly, "Thanks, love." She then turns to the rest of the Place. "I've been debating how much of this to relate here, given Carl's recent reluctance to talk about himself. Carl contacted me by email late last year, saying that I was one of several people he was considering for durable power of attorney for health care for his surgery, and asking if I would be willing to take on that responsibility. After several email exchanges, I agreed. He knew, because I'd told him in so many words, that I was aware of what the responsibility might entail, and he also knew that I had at least one major source of emotional support in the event that the decision to "pull the plug" became necessary. When I heard nothing further from him on the subject, I assumed that he had decided to designate one of the others on his list as his agent. "Carl always insisted upon being taken literally at his word. I assumed that he would accord me the same courtesy. According to Leslie's posting, evidently I was wrong. While I understand and appreciate his concerns, I deeply regret that he did not discuss them with me. "Carl, I wish we had known each other better -- it might have prevented a misunderstanding, and who knows, you might still have been with us. I know that you scoffed at the idea of God, but I also remember you sitting in the front pew during a church service in which I sang. I remember you defiantly riding every roller-coaster ride at Disneyland with Abner and me, despite the signs warning people with heart conditions not to ride. And I still giggle at the image that came to mind the last time I saw you when you described a hungry Kzin with a pistol in hand surrounded by monkey meat.... "Wherever you are, I hope that you're healthy -- and try not to give God too hard a time, OK? I'll miss you...." She turns to the Polymath, and buries her face in his shoulder, sobbing quietly. -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lydia M. Uribe, Rancho Cucamonga, CA uribe@ibm.net | | Cats, quilts, and diving: what more could anyone ask? | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 11:45:46 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: <503vta$c52@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <4vvu4g$ik3@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502dit$88j@mozz.unh.edu> <502ihc$n1a@medea.gp.usm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu > Kitten, i hope you and Patchmaker don't mind me borrowing that line >there 'rage against the dying of the light.' > Ode to a Kzin by DJ. [ ] kitten hugs her beloved friend..."thank you." -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.cgocable.net!n2tor.istar!ftn.net!news ~From: Ch'kai ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p Speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:47:57 -0400 Organization: ftn Internet ~Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3225F3ED.F7D@ftn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.0.180.113 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; I) Shonias wrote (amongst other things): > Doug Quarnstrom wrote: > >I do hope, however, that should news of my own death one day reach this > >news group at least one of you will have the guts to suggest the > >world has suffered no great loss. > > But Doug, when does world suffer much loss? The world suffered no > great loss at the passing of my dear beagle, but a small group of people > have suffered a lot. Same would be true of your passing I would imagine. > And those who pop up in many newsgroups, well, their passing may actually > impact on a lot of the world, it could at least be said the world has > suffered some loss. But no, the world has suffered no great loss at > the passing of Carl Lydick.>My sympathies are with those suffering from Carl's death. > > And mine. > Ch'kai, who has been following the many toasts and conversations, murmurs quietly in passing, paraphrasing: "By one man's death is all mankind diminished And therefore, never send to ask For whom the bell tolls: it tolls for thee." The world as a whole is large and anonymous, masses of strangers. Individuals - and Carl was certainly that - come and go, one by one. And personally, I think it would be worse if no-one even noticed their passing. Like Eleanor Rigby. Ch'kai ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please note change of server - I'm now at chkai@ftn.net ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!world!wgarmil ~From: wgarmil@world.std.com (Wayne S Garmil) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Message-ID: Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:18:03 GMT ~Lines: 25 In article , Roland X wrote: > > "I remembered half of this from the issue of >Crisis where the Flash dies. I reached into one of >my boxes, pulled out a comic to see which box >it was...and had Crisis 8 in my hand." Roland, don't get me started! I'm already morning StM. I don't need to be reminded that issue (or the issue before it, where Kara (Supergirl) dies). It's bad enough we lost a real friend here, don't remind me of two "imaginary friends" I grew up with that I also lost at a time like this. I've been good for three days now (I heard about Carl's death on Tuesday), I don't want to start crying now. Ah, hell. Too late. StM is worth it. Wayne -- _ __ _ __ Who wants to live forever ' ) / // / / ) / If true love has to die? / / / o // __/ / __. __ __/ - F. Mercury & B. May (_(_/ <_ ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <504bbl$4cb@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159016 On 29 Aug 1996 15:01:09 GMT in alt.callahans, Rachel Meredith Kadel said: : He was found dead in his apartment on Friday. The cause of death is now : listed as diabetes. "I'd imagine he's objecting strenuously to that, too--he did comment once that it was more accurate to say 'died of diabetes-related complications.' One doesn't die *of* diabetes, unless..." she says, going pale. "Unless he'd quit taking his insulin. Is there a way to get more information that this?" Leslie. CC: Rachel, take 2. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I try very hard to say exactly what I mean. I'd appreciate it if you'd bear that in mind and not try to "interpret" my posts to fit your own preconceived notions if I'm posting in a serious thread. Remember: If you throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the result. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I had to see it one more time....(for those newcomers, the above was Speaker's .sig.)" Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!wariat.org!kf8nh.apk.net!news ~From: bsa@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 18:31:14 -0400 Organization: Brandon's home server in Parma, Ohio ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <5055ni$72u@kf8nh.apk.net> ~References: <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvu4g$ik3@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502dit$88j@mozz.unh.edu> <502ihc$n1a@medea.gp.usm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kf8nh.apk.net Also sprach jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) (<502ihc$n1a@medea.gp.usm.edu>): +----- | Kitten, i hope you and Patchmaker don't mind me borrowing that line | there 'rage against the dying of the light.' +--->8 Actually, I believe you're borrowing it from Dylan Thomas. "Do not go gentle into that good night/Rage, rage against the dying of the light." -- ++brandon s. allbery flying with merlin! bsa@kf8nh.apk.net telotech's "loup-guru" :-) FORZA CREW! bsa@telotech.com Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!alph02.triumf.ca!shoppa ~From: shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 15:00:35 GMT Organization: Tri-University Meson Facility ~Lines: 28 Message-ID: <504baj$59q@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: alph02.triumf.ca In article <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, John Edwards wrote: >->For what it's worth, Carl was not an insulin dependent diabetic, but a >->non-insulin dependent diabetic who took insulin. >-> >->Not a major point, perhaps, but Carl always demanded precision... >-> > Wait a minute. > Why on earth would a non-Insulin dependent diabetic take >shots? I've personally never heard this (although, I'll be the >first to admit, I'm a little out of touch with newer trends of >diabetes care) The classifications "insulin-dependent" and "non-insulin dependent" are, indeed, not always the best choice of terms. As of a few years ago, "Type I" and "Type II" were more politically correct terms - and I wouldn't be surprised if these have been replaced too. Even older terms for the same classifications are "juvenile-onset" and "adult-onset". In any event, the best treatment (in terms of normalizing blood sugars) for "non-insulin dependent" diabetics often is insulin injections. > (BTW, I've been insulin dependent since I was 14) And me, since I was 15... Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 15:01:09 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: <504bbl$4cb@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu In article <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net>, The Unloved wrote: >The Unloved pokes his head out from his dark corner. He looks >confused and upset. "I know I've been wrapped up in my own problems, >as of late... and as a result I missed something important. Can >someone please tell about the dear departed... who he was and how it >happened?" > He was found dead in his apartment on Friday. The cause of death is now listed as diabetes. Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.ios.com!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 20:07:32 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 213 Message-ID: <505esk$c0i@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. A blast from the past... I'll let him tell it, in his own words. If the below condradicts your opinions, well, it's not reality that's got it wrong... ----------------------------------- ~From: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Speaker-to-Minerals) Subject:Re: Apology to Patrons ~Date: 27 Jul 1994 12:48:52 GMT Message-ID:<315l3k$6i5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> In article <314h23$cii@rigel.infinet.com>, jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) writes: =Michael J M Holmes (mjmh@bu.edu) wrote: = = A lot of good, wise stuff. . . but. . . . = = Speaker will himself admit that he is seen by some as abusive, =abrasive etc. "Of course I'll admit that," says StM. "Been that way ever since my second post to the Place. First post was just to find out whether the Place had anything to do with Spider's stories. Consisted of 7 words: `Does this place have a Punday night?" Got a couple of replies back. One, I thing from, where was it, University of Southern Mississippi? Well, USM anyway. Lurked for a bit. Then somebody posted about the suicide of a friend. I responeded. Accused the poster of, let's see, how did I put it? Oh, yeah, `wallowing in self pity.' Got flamed by half-a-dozen regulars. Including, I think, Kitten. NOT including, oddly enough, the person to whos post I was responding. Heard from him later (in a post to the place), that my response had actually been helpful. Oddly enough, the pattern continues: Someone posts asking for help. I offer help. Or what I think is likely to be helpful, anyway. Get flamed for it if my help isn't PC (Pitifully Correct). Sometimes my attempt is helpful. Sometimes it isn't. There's no way of knowing until after the fact. Hey, life isn't fair. If it were, there's be a way to tell beforehand what'll be useful and what isn't. But, yeah, some folks don't approve of my style. Even if the person they're "defending" thinks I helped, they'd still rather I'd never posted. =(I'm sure he'll admit this because 'some' have told him =so, either politely or not). Yup. Some have told me, in circumstances when I see no likely motive for them to've been lying. =I'm fairly certain that he would call the =same behavior something akin to blunt, opinionated comments. . . Couldn't've put it much better myself. =though he might (justifiably) eliminated 'opinionated' depending on how the =word is being used today. Yeah, I'd've left it out. It's almost certain to be either redundant or misleading. When anybody deals with a situation that's not completely specified, their reactions are bound to be based on their own personal prejudices. The same, of course, applies to me. [If you tend to get annoyed at my tactless statements, you might want to skip the next page] I see somebody who seems to think life's going out of its way to be unfair to her when, in fact, all the evidence indicates the situation was reasonably foreseeable, I'll point out the situation was foreseeable. Why? Well, because in the situations I've dealt with personally (both when life was unfair to me and when it was unfair to my friends and acquaintances), most of the time, realizing that life wasn't being ESPECIALLY unfair helped. That's personal observation. YMMV (pretty much the motto of misc.health.diabetes, by the way). So I see a similar situation, I approach it based on my own personal experience. Yup. Even if I don't know all the details. Personal prejudice at its best (yes, Kitten, I *DO* admit to having prejudices; I just claim that I tend to be more aware of them than do a lot of people). But y'know something: That's the best option available to me. I'm not omniscient. I've got to go on my own best guess as to what's likely to help. So do you, even if you don't want to admit it: You're not omniscient either. And the culture you've lived in, and which conditioned your responses, may not be the same as the culture in which I've lived. If you've got a solid argument why your approach is better than mine, I'd love to hear it. What I don't want to hear is a lot of bullshit constructed for the purpose of rationalizing your presonal prejudices. Well, that's not quite true. If you've got a NOVEL rationalization, I'd like to hear it. Hell, there's even a chance that the rationalization will be valid. = What I'm saying is this: Speaker talks differently from most =patrons here. That is a legitamite issue. Saying people should not =mention this, discuss this, etc, is the same as saying that Speaker =should use a different tone in his posting. Y'know, there've been a few patrons who've talked with me about why my styld is different from that of other patrons. Then there're the majority of patrons who appear (for those of you who ignore words in sentences that you don't think are important: "appear" was in this sentence for good reason; if you can't figure out why, ASK!) to accept my style (at least when I'm responding to requests for help) as valid. And there are those who can't seem to conceive of any idea of "help" other than theirs as being legitimate. I truly do not understand the latter class. And, in some sense, I hope I never do. In another sense, I want very much to understand them. = This type of discussion can quickly get circular . . . she =shouldn'ts ay that he can't say that I can't say that he can't say that =she can't say that. = = However, if someone calls Speaker nasty names because he calls =someone nasty names, they surely can't claim some moral superiority to him. Er, that's not quite the way it usually happens. What usually happens is that someone calls me nasty names, but does it with polite words, and expects that the the politeness of the words will be taken to be more important than the nastiness of the accusations. I must admit that that's an effective technique. And at this point, I'm afraid I must confess that I've recently used that technique myself, just to demonstrate how effective it can be. I won't apologize for doing so. That would be dishonest. I will say I'm sorry I thought it was necessary. Er, I suspect I've got many of you confused. I know there are some Niven fans here. Fans enough that you know all the implications of the term Kzinrette. Now, there are some, including Abner, who castigated me for my out-and-out, above-board insults to the "illogical Vulcan." Yet, for some reason, nobody at all objected to my calling her a "Vulcanrette." Think about that for a moment, please. = /*, I don't know what to say or do. . . because I *DO NOT* like some =of Speaker's responses to some situations. That's not at all surprising. We're two different people with two different backgrounds. =But at the same time, I've come to care for him a great deal over the years. =. . and, I think I've gotten a better picture for the man behind the =terminal once I accepted that he is what he is and stopped trying to FORCE =him to become what I'd like him to be. (Yes, I'd still like him to change. =So? I'd also like the weather to change. . . ) "If you'll permit me to paraphrase a fellow who, as best I can tell, had a substantial influence on Heinlein, what you're saying is that once you overcame a reversal or order in your semantic response, you were better able to cope with the world as it is (or at least with me as I am). Putting that in terms that make sense: Once you started trying to deduce my motives from my actions rather than trying to fit my actions into a preconceived notion of how I *OUGHT* to behave, things made a lot more sense. If I'm wrong in that interpretation let me know. If I'm right let me know. I'm working on a book review, and whether or not the above description seems valid to you is imprortant data for that review. And, since the book in question purports to be non-fiction, whether or not the above description seems valid to you affects how seriously I'll take many of the claims of the book (the book makes many claims. Some claims I know to be bullshit. Some were even known to be bullshit at the time the book was written. Others I have evidence are valid. But a lot, while persuasive, are unbacked by evidence. So I'd like to see evidence, either way, on their validity. = But somehow, WE, the collective we, have to decide a better solution =than 1) bashing someone because we feel they are bashing first, Sorry, even though, to some extent you're defending me here, I've got to disagree with you: If I think I'm being attacked, I'll defend myself. And if I wasn't the initial agressor, I don't honor any conventional rules, except for one: If your opponent asks to stop the fight, the fight stops (the first time; if he later demonstrates that the cessation of hostilities was merely a ploy to give him breating time, you don't make the same mistake again). I ask no more of anybody in the Place. *BUT*, bear in mind: If you enter an exchange without invitation, YOU are the agressor. Maybe you're doing it for the best of motives. But if you decide to attack without having yourself been attacked, or having been asked by a participant to enter the fray, you're the agressor. = One thing I will suggest to everyone who has a problem with *ANYONE* =EVER ANYWHERE. . . . try to understand that person. Try to figure out =exactly why that person is doing whatever it is you don't like. If that person tries to explain his actions, LISTEN to him; even if you don't buy his reasons, at least you'll know what those reasons are. =Once you have a better picture of that person, then at least, you'll have a =better idea of what you're doing. Yup. For example, if you want to stop me from doing something, telling me that I'm violating social conventions isn't going to make a damned bit of difference. Presenting evidence that I'm injuring innocent bystanders likely will make a difference (but bear in mind: Someone who persists in reading a thread they declare they find distasteful is NOT an innocent bystander. That person is a voyeur, no matter how much they might deny the fact). =Thinking of Speaker as some horrendous ='argument machine' whose only purpose in life is to make people unhappy =would be complete bullshit. . . . he's VERY caring and very helpful. =Simultaneously, not admitting that he's blunt (at least) would be blindness. Sure would. If I've got a choice between "blunt" and "tactful," then unless there's obvious reason for going with "tactful," I'm gonna go with "blunt." Of course, that's not the only way of putting it. It would be equally valid to say: If I've got a choice between "honest" and "deceitful," then unless there's obvious reason for going with "deceitful," I'm gonna go with "honest." = Anyway; as a veteran of many wars here, that's a lot of what I think =on the matter. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I try very hard to say exactly what I mean. I'd appreciate it if you'd bear that in mind and not try to "interpret" my posts to fit your own preconceived notions if I'm posting in a serious thread. Remember: If you throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the result. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.cybercomm.net!not-for-mail ~From: banshee@cybercomm.net (Sidhe Who Must Be Obeyed) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 15:13:27 GMT Organization: CyberComm Online Services ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: <504c2n$o23@crow.cybercomm.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vujeb$c89@News.Dal.Ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: raven.cybercomm.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] John Barnstead (userrusj@is.dal.ca) wrote: : barbara trumpinski (kittent@staff.uiuc.edu) wrote: : : kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called : : speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl : : was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone : : out there can help, please do." : : : she raises her glass in a silent toast. : : Barnstead raises a glass: : : To Carl Lydick and his creation Speaker-To-Minerals. God be with you : until we meet again. The banshee's wordless cry joins the many toasts as she sends her glass into the fireplace, mourning the loss of someone who, while she didn't know him well, will still be sorely missed.... -- ******************************************************************************* "There is no meaning... only life's dance, * Rebecca Leanne Schoenberg and in this place we are the new race of * Leah Anne of Bellemont Earth being born" - Jack Oakley, "Fiat Silva" * banshee@raven.cybercom.com ******************************************************************************* Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 15:15:55 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 66 Message-ID: <504c7b$kab@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <504baj$59q@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu kitten holds a piece of paper in her hand. "i got this message from didi...she and eggo are mourning speaker, too. she reminded me of how kind he was to let her and kyla-sprite live in his beard. i asked her if i could pass it along...." ----<--<* ----<--<* *>-->---- *>-->---- DEATH IS A DOOR ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . . ... :``..': : ````.' :''::' ..:.. : .'' : Death is only an old door ``. `: .' : Set in a garden wall; : : : : On gentle hinges it gives : : : : at dusk : : : : When the thrushes call. : : :..''''``::. : ...:..' .'' .' .' .::::' Along the lintel are green :..'''``::::::: leaves, ' `:::: Beyond the light lies still; `::. Very willing and weary feet `:: Go over that sill. :::. ..:```.:'`. ::'`. ..' `:.: :: .: .:``::: There is nothing to trouble .: ..'' ::: any heart; : .'' .:: Nothing to hurt at all. : .'`:: Death is only a quiet door :: In an old wall. :: : : BY: Nancy Byrd Turner : : : . ----<--<* & *>-->---- How are you today, Kitten? I hope the emptiness I imagine you have been feeling has relented a little. I like to imagine Speaker in a place where he no longer feels the need to shout and rant; instead he can have quiet conversations with folk of equal intellectual capacity. I don't believe he died alone, either. There were loving entities there to help him across. That is why he went. Those who are left behind must grieve for a time, then move on with our memories. We shall always have those and they make us richer. Especially since we can filter out those we don't like so much. -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!claudia ~From: claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 15:17:29 GMT Organization: NowHere ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <504ca9$il@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3225B3FE.3A6A@bway.net> <504769$agg@izzy4.izzy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunster-lab1.student.harvard.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sanford E. Walke IV (sewiv@news.izzy.net) wrote: : I know this is a dumb question, but someone is saving this thread, right? I've been considering it. But all of a.c is already archived. What I think I may do is make this the impetus to dig up all the plaque posts I can, as I once told DJ I would. : This needs to go in the a.c archives. Of course, any time anyone nominates a "favorite post" for my favorite posts page, it goes up as soon as I can html it (minimal html). Claudia http://www.tiac.net/users/cmarie/callahans-index.html -- "I try never to get involved with my own life. It's too much trouble." -- Michael Garibaldi Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!wariat.org!kf8nh.apk.net!news ~From: bsa@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 19:57:15 -0400 Organization: Brandon's home server in Parma, Ohio ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <505aor$7ij@kf8nh.apk.net> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <504baj$59q@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: kf8nh.apk.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158939 Also sprach shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) (<504baj$59q@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>): +----- | > Why on earth would a non-Insulin dependent diabetic take | >shots? I've personally never heard this (although, I'll be the | | The classifications "insulin-dependent" and "non-insulin dependent" | are, indeed, not always the best choice of terms. As of a few +--->8 IDDM occurs when the immune system destroys the Islets of Langerhans, the organs that produce insulin. A person with IDD *must* take insulin. No other choice exists (except death). NIDDM is when insulin *receptors* are destroyed by the immune system: there is enough insulin, but the body doesn't respond to it. It is sometimes, but not always, possible to survive without insulin injections; often NIDDM can be "controlled" by diet. I don't know the full story on NIDDM, but I do know that failure to control it sufficiently (which is somewhat common, especially since NIDDM has become well understood by doctors only relatively recently) often leads to the victim requiring insulin shots to survive. (IIRC, this is to insure that there is enough insulin to reach and trigger all the surviving insulin receptors.) Anyway, the naming has more to do with whether the body is producing its own insulin or not: in IDDM it isn't, in NIDDM it is but it can't be used. (We need a new local NIDDM expert. Any takers? Or maybe I should do it, since I should really bone up anyway so I can make sure my boss is taking care of himself --- he was diagnosed with NIDDM earlier this month. Dammit, I was going to ask Speaker for tips...) -- ++brandon s. allbery flying with merlin! bsa@kf8nh.apk.net telotech's "loup-guru" :-) FORZA CREW! bsa@telotech.com Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!wariat.org!kf8nh.apk.net!news ~From: bsa@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 20:12:34 -0400 Organization: Brandon's home server in Parma, Ohio ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <505bli$7ln@kf8nh.apk.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504kr2$bf2@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kf8nh.apk.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158940 Also sprach jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) (<504kr2$bf2@news1.infinet.com>): +----- | "I've been trying to figure out *WHAT* to say. . . and how to say it. | I mean, I am probably one of the only "original Speaker-battlers" that | still hangs around her. I was here when he showed up; now I'm here after | he's left. +--->8 Not the only one. | "Wouldn't he have to keep fighting even when beaten? Wouldn't he have | to be unyielding, never giving approval and never saying "you got it"? +--->8 Except that, when caught out on a point of fact, he *did* give in. (Usually. ISTR a few exceptions.) (Now is for remembering...) -- ++brandon s. allbery flying with merlin! bsa@kf8nh.apk.net telotech's "loup-guru" :-) FORZA CREW! bsa@telotech.com Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!agate!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!yama.mcc.ac.uk!news.salford.ac.uk!aber!bath.ac.uk!morse.ukonline.co.uk!usenet ~From: simon@ukonline.co.uk (Simon H Le G Bisson) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:57:53 GMT Organization: UK Online Ltd ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3225cbc0.17824133@news.ukonline.co.uk> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32235f17.181655040@news.ukonline.co.uk> ~Reply-To: simon@ukonline.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: pardalis.ukonline.co.uk X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 20:58:51 GMT, alan.ralph@ukonline.co.uk (Alan Ralph) wrote: >'To Carl, who helped provide some of the rough occasionally to go >with the smooth, and the sour to counteract the sweet.' Ignatz sneaks a head around the door and tosses in his glass. "To Speaker!" And disappears once more. --------------- Ignatz Mouse is: Simon H Le G Bisson -- simon@ukonline.co.uk Technical Manager, UK Online Ltd http://www.ukonline.co.uk/ Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ptd.net!news ~From: "Kevin D. Knerr, Sr." ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:02:09 -0400 Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc. ~Lines: 65 Message-ID: <32263D91.457F@prolog.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs1-13.haz.ptd.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b7Gold (Win95; I) barbara trumpinski wrote: > > kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called > speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl > was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone > out there can help, please do." > > she raises her glass in a silent toast. Mike--a bottle of the 100 year old Macallan, if you please. I finally "found" Callahan's a few months ago. Among the first things that happened to me were that I was a) *warned* about StM and b) warned about *StM*. Needless to say, I plunged right on in, fully confident of my own knowledge and abilities. I tried to not let the warnings prejudice my opinion of him. I guess I should feel twice blessed in that StM at times both agreed with me and flamed me. While I never knew Carl, the man behind the persona, and I only knew StM for a short time, I feel confident in saying the following: Carl was a polymath, exceptionally brilliant in several fields. Carl held rigid definitions of truth, freedom, and choice. (Which should explain to prior posters why he described himself as a "non-insulin dependent diabetic who uses insulin". As far as he was concerned, diabetes did not force him to use insulin--he chose to use insulin to treat his diabetic condition.) Carl never really cared what people thought of him personally--objective truth was that much more important to him. Carl believed that everyone else should hold the same commitment to objective truth. Given the number of comments I've read, I suspect he never realized that his abrasive and abusive language was detracting from his ability to share his knowledge and insights with others. Or he just plain didn't care. Carl, despite his rigorous self-discipline, sometimes failed to achieve his own high standards in his posts. He would make assumptions about their starting principles. He held stereotypes and preconceived notions about others' motives and ideas. But, IMHO, Carl's tragic flaw was his refusal to acknowledge that others might succumb to weakness and pain. Because he stood valiantly against his own infirmity and pain, he could not see why others might stumble. Someone else has already said that StM would probably castigate us and berate us for all this sentimental garbage and sanctimonious bullshit. Maybe so. But he is gone now, and, although he would not mourn, we can and we must. To my worthy adversary--may you find truth and peace on the other side of the threshold. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just think about it: Windows 95 is Commodore Amiga '84--almost, but not quite. "Friends don't let friends do Windows. Be a designated Amigan." A public service message from Ld. Barthel. kknerrsr@prolog.net Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!qns3.qns.net!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.ysu.edu!odin.oar.net!malgudi.oar.net!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 17:42:58 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 69 Message-ID: <504kr2$bf2@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] John smiles sadly. "I've been trying to figure out *WHAT* to say. . . and how to say it. I mean, I am probably one of the only "original Speaker-battlers" that still hangs around her. I was here when he showed up; now I'm here after he's left. "Assholes burn out; it's a fact of life. There's just nothing in hate and anger that can keep a person's energy up. Those emotions COST. . . and they don't return anything. Speaker and I fought over things for *YEARS*. Assholes don't last that long. "That should tell you that Speaker wasn't an asshole. . . he had something more precious than crankiness backing him and his actions up. It had to *MEAN* something to him. "Listen. . . I don't know Carl's motivations. I never could understand him. . . and I stopped trying to understand them, to a degree, after a while. I could understand him fighting to the last drop of blood, so to speak, over the truth. . . but there were times when I was SURE he was wrong, when I couldn't POSSIBLY figure out how he could continue, and he still railed on. "But for now, I'm going to open up a kind of a fairy-tale ending to his life. Let's just suppose that he hated the idea of someone worshipping him. Let's suppose he DESPISED the idea that someone would take his word for something without true understanding. Let's pretend that the worst sin in his book of morality was "giving people false pride". "Wouldn't he have to keep fighting even when beaten? Wouldn't he have to be unyielding, never giving approval and never saying "you got it"? "I wonder. And I keep wondering. Couldn't I picture Carl saying 'great, the moron is going to think life is unfair because he can't make me say what he wants.'? "He never gave up; he never gave in. And he thereby taught me not to do either, and not to question myself simply because someone disagrees strongly. "Instead of being satisfied if/when I felt I'd beaten HIM, I had to be satisfied if and when I thought I'd found the truth I was looking for. "I dunno. I doubt it. I doubt he was some kind of weirdo intellectual saint trying to give people their thinking-trial-by-fire. But regardless of WHAT he was, he taught me to put more interest in myself than in what other people said, or did, or seemed to expect." John sighs, and a few tears finally leak from his eyes. "So maybe I can honor him best THAT way. . . by not TRYING to look at what he was, or might have been, and holding on to what I gained from him." John laughs, quietly. "I asked him to post details of where his surgery was going to be. If the worst happened. . . well. . . I was ready to try to sneak out to California and see if I could get him off of life support. . . whatever that took. "Dj once said he wasn't sure if he could do that. I knew I could, even if it meant. . . well, something not strictly legal, and something the catholic chruch would surely call murder. "All that for a man who I really hated. . . but who I could only hate because I respected, and yes, loved, him. "I'm gonna miss you, Speaker." John sighs, blinks back the remaining tears, and gets back to work. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!kristin.a2i!kristin ~From: "Kristin A. Ruhle" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 19:00:12 GMT Organization: a2i network ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <504pbs$gll@samba.rahul.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: foxtrot.rahul.net NNTP-Posting-User: kristin X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Kristin steps up to the chalkline, delurking - no - revisiting Callahan's after a long absence. "To Speaker," she says. "Even if he did call me something anatomically impossible once. He gave me a net.experience to remember, at least." ***smash*** "Yeah, I'd gnash my teeth sometimes thinking he was an asshole, but he was very bright, and intellectual rigor doesn't hurt with all the shit that 's on the net these days. "Hmm. If he were here now, he'd probably find a way to turn my current .sig against me...." Kristin R. -- ************************************************************************* "You can stop rehearsing, Pinky. No one is hiring village idiots anymore." Kristin Ruhle kristin@rahul.net ************************************************************************ Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!mcsun!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news1.radix.net!news ~From: "Chris Barnhart" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 20:12:25 GMT Organization: RadixNet Internet Services ~Lines: 65 Message-ID: <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin2.annex5.radix.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 -- Leslie wrote in article <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org>... > "The net didn't 'bring out the worst in him,' not in the sense that > you mean it, I think. Over and over and over again, every time > the subject came up, he repeated one thing: his flames were deliberate > and calculated for effect, the effect of making it *crystal clear* > what he thought of something. The more he disagreed with something, > the more important it was to him that there be no chance that anyone > anywhere might mistake him for agreeing, instead. Pure selfishness > on his part; but the effect of his flames on the receipient was a > non-issue to him, with the exception of his intent to make them > *think* about what they'd said. I absolutely disagree. It *did* bring out the worst in him. Calling someone a moron or shit for brains or anything else like that hardly EVER causes them to think. And, as anal-retentive and nit picky as Carl was, it should have been a fairly obvious distinction for him that saying someone is stupid is much different than saying something someone says is stupid. We've all been there and done that. At least, I know I have. Whether or not his intentions were clear unto himself, Carl, like all of us, needed to take the responsibilities for his actions. Just because he was bright doesn't give him special license to treat people like crap on an almost (from my perspective) continuous basis. Anything StM might have had to say to me regarding science, I can read from a book without the insults, thank you very much. When I've flamed, albeit here or somewhere else, I've been called on the carpet for it, and perhaps rightfully so. Though I think that there is a time to express anger. My impressions of Carl's flaming tendencies were that he had a lot of inner rage he couldn't take out elsewhere, that he had a terminal Napoleonic complex, that he had little regards for how anyone felt, other than himself. Am I wrong? Perhaps. But with the way he presented himself, to whom should I credit the false impression? IF I suspect a dog of being hydrophobic, I will hardly test the thesis by approaching it and petting it on the snout. I wasn't going to say any of this, not out of respect for StM/Carl, but for respect for his friends. But it's apparent that everyone who knew him is aware of the controversy regarding his personality. *I* feel better for having said it, and I guess that's what memorial is all about. If there is an afterlife of any sort, I can wish for Carl that he finds there what he is looking for. Would he grant me the same respect? I honestly don't know. ______________________________________________________________________ _ Chris Barnhart - TechnoPup | "Verbosity leads to unclear, cbarnhart@radix.net | inarticulate things." http://www.radix.net/~cbarnhart | -Dan Quayle ________________________________|_____________________________________ _ Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 01:30:05 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 14 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <5061pd$pga@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> <5030lg$qmg@metro.usyd.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 29 Aug 1996 02:52:32 GMT in alt.callahans, Shonias said: : : Shonias stands laughing and crying and remembering the souls that : have departed recently (three friends of hers, one of someone else's : in a two week period.) "Oh, my dear, how terrible for you. I can't begin to imagine. I can only say I'm sorry. I hope you have friends there in RL to give you support..." Leslie. CC: Shonias Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 01:33:47 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50620b$pm2@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> <3225D46F.6934@discover-net.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:33:35 -0600 in alt.callahans, Ager or Persson said: : Leslie (and somebocy else![that was kitten]) wrote: : > "Truckin'. They have to play Truckin'. There was a thread once where : > people were telling what the theme song to the movie of the story of : > their life would be, and that's what he said." : : Truckin' : -------- [...] : Busted, down on Bourbon Street. : Set up, like a bowling pin. : Knocked down, it get's to wearin' thin, : They just won't let you be, oh no. "Somehow...I think this was one bit that stuck out in his mind... "Thank you, Beth." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!daq ~From: daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p Speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 20:50:47 GMT Organization: PROTEUS ~Lines: 14 Message-ID: <504vr7$fef@fcnews.fc.hp.com> ~References: <3225F3ED.F7D@ftn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpesdaq.fc.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1.4] Ch'kai (chkai@ftn.net) wrote: : The world as a whole is large and anonymous, masses of strangers. : Individuals - and Carl was certainly that - come and go, one by one. And : personally, I think it would be worse if no-one even noticed their : passing. Like Eleanor Rigby. Certainly, and Carl is in my thoughts a great deal lately. I did not know him in person, but regardless my feelings, he will probably remain an icon for certain subjects in my intenral dialogue for some time to come if not until even the time of my own death. So I pay him a respect of sorts, perhaps even a meaningful one. doug Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 22:55:22 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 33 Message-ID: <50574q$7ng@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159017 In article <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, John Edwards wrote: >The Ever-so-wise miller@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Kelly Miller) once >said: > >->For what it's worth, Carl was not an insulin dependent diabetic, but a >->non-insulin dependent diabetic who took insulin. >-> >->Not a major point, perhaps, but Carl always demanded precision... >-> > Wait a minute. > Why on earth would a non-Insulin dependent diabetic take >shots? I've personally never heard this (although, I'll be the >first to admit, I'm a little out of touch with newer trends of >diabetes care) > (BTW, I've been insulin dependent since I was 14) > Would you mind explaining this? "Insulin dependent diabetes" is another word for "Type 1", previously known as "juvenile onset" diabetes -- in which the insulin-producing cells in the pancreas die off. "Non-insulin-dependent" or "Type II" diabetes is the more common type, in which insulin production is (usually) normal, but the body doesn't respond efficiently to insulin. One of the most common treatments for type II is insulin injections to supplement their own insulin production although some can control their diabetes using diet, exercise, and/or oral medications. Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!cdc2.cdc.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news ~From: soozeeq@concentric.net (soozeeq) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:10:14 GMT Organization: Concentric Internet Services ~Lines: 110 Message-ID: <50513n$afe@herald.concentric.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc125046.concentric.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ACombs@mail.utexas.edu (Alan B. Combs) wrote: >On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:58:45 -0500 in alt.callahans, >Alan B. Combs said: >Leslie: >>All of a sudden, Leslie realizes the irony...this will be the last time >>Speaker's name is in the title of a thread... >[ >Alan: >Very excellent posting, Leslie. As well as helping your grieving process, >this will be very helpful to many of the rest of us. I have been >emotionally wiped the last couple of days, along with many others. >Alan (First Posting): >>: I did not like his anger (or at least what I perceived as anger, though he >>: said it was not) and his intolerance for the fuzzy, ambiguous, >>: easy-to-misinterpret nature of words. I do affirm the strong, wonderful, >>: helpful resource he was. He fought ignorance, diabetes, and congestive >>: heart failure. I wonder if lack of hope for the future, and similar lack >>: of hope for the present contributed to the anger we saw at the end of his >>: postings. Until we are able to walk in his shoes, perhaps, even the anger >>: and flames should be forgiven. >Leslie: >>"Don't jump to conclusions. There were a lot of flames then, true, >>but don't forget that he was involved in defending himself against >>misinterpretations. And perhaps it was just chemically pure chance >>that several subjects came up at once that fit his criteria for >>'things which deserve to be flamed.' >Alan: >This possibility is stipulated. >Leslie: >>Painting him as being so >>unself-aware of his own emotional state does him a major disservice." >Alan: >I feel this is an example of the all too frequently fuzzy and maleable >meanings of words, resulting in the sending of messages that were not >intended. I did not mean to imply that Carl was self-unaware. To the >contrary, I believe he was *highly* self-aware, something that would >clearly add to the angst of his situation. I apologize, if my posting was >interpreted otherwise. >Alan (First Posting): >>: To Carl J. Lydick, a *man*. The journey is not over. Albeit, you >>: rejected the concept, may God's grace go with you. >Leslie: >>"I hope you aren't referring to the God of the Old and New Testament. >>StM really hated that guy a lot. The God of the Deists, he'd be >>willing to go along with..." >Alan: >Yeah, I was referring to the God of the Testaments -- and I did do it on >purpose. Very clearly, Carl did not like any aspect about Him. My only >response is that the God that Carl hated and the God I cannot, dare not >hate are *not* the same Person, even if the same name is used. Inasmuch >as we believers have, by our behaviors, provided Carl (and others) with >evidence for his beliefs, we will be held accountable. >On the other hand, one of the frequent comments people have made in this >thread is about Carl's inability or refusal to concede that there might be >any legit interpretation of what was said, other than his. I think that >ambiguity in conveyed meaning, even though none was intended, is one of >the tragedies of human existence. Because of this aspect of Carl's >nature, his ambiguity-blindness, I suspect he would not have been capable >of receiving any theological argument, not matter how well-framed it might >have been. Thus, I have not gone deeply into apologetics (explanation and >interpretation of doctrine) in several of the recent relevant threads. I >admit this may be a cop-out, however. >Finally, (as was developed by C.S. Lewis), it is much better to be a >person that hates God, rather than one that is apathetic. Hate is active, >the person cares, and God can deal with that. When a person just does not >give a rat's ass, that person cannot be moved. >Alan (First Posting): >>: C R A S H (then hugs and tears around) >Leslie: >>Thank you. >Alan: >Also, Leslie, thank you. Your comments, history, and caring continue to be >very helpful. This is my second version of this message. I was wrestling >with myself as to whether I should just email this to you, or more >generally post it to the friends in alt.callahans. I had just chosen the >latter when my computer bombed. I think some of my initial wording was >stronger, but it is gone forever. So be it. Scanning through this post, Soozeeq notices Alan's excellent points about miscommunications and misunderstandings in the use of language as a communication device....she pauses for a moment and adds: I truly believe that language is both a blessed gift and a curse.....I also believe that we have as many "languages" as we have people on this earth....hopefully we can teach and learn each other's languages and meanings with trust and patience for each other's differences. --Sooz (who daily struggles with the confusion over the differences in language and the meaning of language between genders, in particular!) Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!daily-planet.execpc.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!claudia ~From: claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 23:12:59 GMT Organization: NowHere ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <50585r$7pb@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3225B3FE.3A6A@bway.net> <504769$agg@izzy4.izzy.net> <504ca9$il@decaxp.harvard.edu> <504et3$led@xanadu.io.com> <3225D757.53CB@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunster-lab1.student.harvard.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159015 Looking Wolf (lookingwolf@rand.nidlink.com) wrote: : Gareth L Owen wrote: : > "I reckon there should be a 'Tycho Crater' web page : > or something. Something kinda permanent. Somewhere : > we can go and remember." : "That is an excellent idea. I'm willing to donate both the space for : the page and the time for designing it, if someone will but tell me : where and how to retrieve all the Plaque posts. Claudia says, "Well, I had already told Dreamy Jim I would do that, but I guess whatever gets it done soonest. I was going to go through the archives by hand because I *wanted* to skim them anyway, and fish out Plaque posts as I went." Claudia -- "I didn't realize how much fun I had until I started reading all the posts about me." -- davo Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 04:22:32 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 72 Message-ID: <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bermuda.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:46:07 -0700 in alt.callahans, Looking Wolf said: : : "I had wondered about this myself," says the wolf, "so, after I learned : a bit more about Carl (posthumously, unfortunately), I asked a friend of : mine who is a psychologist. She said that Carl's medical conditions : could easily have affected his personality. "Wonderful. Diagnosing someone she'd never even met, based on third- hand, incorrect, incomplete, information. What diploma-mill did SHE come out of? Speaker took a *real* dim view of people who fancied themselves 'net.shrinks,' too. Especially since they never got it *right*..." : "Diabetes can cause mood swings, and even mild personality disorders, as : the brain is continually short-changed in its food supply. Also, Carl : had congestive heart disease, I have been told, and was scheduled for a : sextuple bypass operation. He must have been in incredible pain. That : pain, combined with whatever medication he was taking, could have caused : long-term problems, including his general irascibility. "Nice theory, except for the *tiny* problem that he WASN'T IN PAIN, not that I knew of anyway. (Polymath? Soprano? Did he complain at all of pain that you knew of?) In email to me in June, just before he went off the net, he told me the medications he was on were handling the CHF just fine, and that his condition was stable. He said, given the complications of his diabetes anyway, having the operation wouldn't change the quality of his life. Somehow I suspect 'being free of pain' would count as a change in the quality of his life, no? "It's not impossible that he was having problems regulating his blood sugar; but he was very very alert to problems in that area, and did try to maintain tight control by testing often. He wasn't an idiot, you know. Or at least, not *that* kind of idiot." "As far as iracibility goes, he's been that way for decades. And recently there were a lot of threads going on in at least three newsgroups where he was faced with both idiots and misinterpretations. Just how short would your fuse be, under those conditions?" : "There is also this to consider: a number of people said that he was : soft-spoken in person. It could be that it was only online that he was : able to vent all the anger and pain he was in, and so it was the online : communities that bore the brunt. "ooo, are you lucky StM I'SNT here. But if I told you he once defended a lady bartender's honor (against two assholes who were harassing her) by using an ashtray as a weapon (the fight lasted about a minute and a half, he said) would you rethink the above bit of bullshit? He never said he didn't insult people to their faces; in fact, he said he *did*." : "One last thought: I read that Carl refused the bypass operation, 'for : reasons known only to himself'. That sort of seemingly irrational act : just might have been due to encroaching arteriosclerosis, which does not : only affect the elderly, and which can make someone extremely edgy and : angry. "Great. The above would have gotten you *nuked* by StM. His major reason for postponing the operation was, in fact, posted by him here, in June. So it was *not* 'known only to himself.' Next theory? Try to make it based in *facts* this time, eh?" : "Pain does strange things to the brain, and diabetes doesn't help. : While this does not necessarily excuse bad behavior (and I doubt Carl : would want an excuse anyway), it may help others understand it." "You're right that he never used even wonky blood sugar as an excuse for anything. He *insisted* on taking responsibility for his actions, no matter what, and said so in a post, I remember." Leslie. Who was rereading her old files to find the story of the bar fight...oh damn, oh damn...man, was I NOSY... Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:24:08 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 16 Message-ID: <32264290.581095017@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3225B3FE.3A6A@bway.net> <504769$agg@izzy4.izzy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co24-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 8:29:43 PM CDT 1996 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158950 The Ever-So-Wise sewiv@news.izzy.net (Sanford E. Walke IV) wrote: ->I know this is a dumb question, but someone is saving this thread, right? -> ->This needs to go in the a.c archives. ->-- ->Sandy sewiv@izzy.net I've saved everything that has come across my news server. If you want, I'll send it to you after it's all over. John Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 03:07:45 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32265a95.587245023@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> <502kj1$gvi@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co24-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 10:13:20 PM CDT 1996 The Ever-So-Wise kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) wrote: ->>Leslie. I thought he was too stubborn to die... -> ->"me, too....and the sonofabitch was supposed to CALL me if he needed ->anything. i feel like i just lost my brother all over again." kitten ->wonders if this has been a long week for everyone, or just her. It's been a week from hell for me as well. My mother went into the hospital with heart trouble yesterday, and my uncle (mother's side) is having difficulty with a brain tumor. Mom will be fine, Uncle will be fine after his operation in November. ((keep saying it, over and over again)) {Sigh.} John Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 03:24:43 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <32265e8c.588260246@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <504baj$59q@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <504c7b$kab@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co24-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 10:30:18 PM CDT 1996 The Ever-So-Wise kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) wrote: -> ->kitten holds a piece of paper in her hand. "i got this message from ->didi...she and eggo are mourning speaker, too. she reminded me of how ->kind he was to let her and kyla-sprite live in his beard. i asked her ->if i could pass it along...." Thank you for posting that Kitten, and thank you too DiDi for sending it. John Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: "Lydia M. Uribe" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:49:56 -0700 Organization: Rancho Cucamonga Shelter for Maladjusted Singers ~Lines: 16 Message-ID: <322729C4.3284@ibm.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50361u$4ji@ra.nrl.navy.mil> ~Reply-To: uribe@ibm.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ont-ca6-28.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 30 10:55:01 AM PDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159006 Daniel Briggs wrote: > > Dan'l opens the door, and wanders back to Mike. Not too many folks in the > bar place the face, but there are a few. He's still as tall and bearded > and bespectacled as he ever was, with a tendency to dress in blues, browns > and black. A dollar bill goes down on the bar. Soprano looks up at the entrance of someone she hasn't seen in too long. "Welcome back, Dan'l." Soprano -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lydia M. Uribe, Rancho Cucamonga, CA uribe@ibm.net | | Cats, quilts, and diving: what more could anyone ask? | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nidlink.com!usenet ~From: Looking Wolf ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:57:35 -0700 Organization: NetLink, Inc. ~Lines: 154 Message-ID: <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-19.nidlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) Leslie wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:46:07 -0700 in alt.callahans, > Looking Wolf said: > : > : "I had wondered about this myself," says the wolf, "so, after I learned > : a bit more about Carl (posthumously, unfortunately), I asked a friend of > : mine who is a psychologist. She said that Carl's medical conditions > : could easily have affected his personality. > > "Wonderful. Diagnosing someone she'd never even met, based on third- > hand, incorrect, incomplete, information. What diploma-mill did SHE come > out of? Speaker took a *real* dim view of people who fancied themselves > 'net.shrinks,' too. Especially since they never got it *right*..." "A number of very GOOD 'diploma-mills'," growls the wolf. "Bachelor's degree from the University of Nebraska at Lincoln, Master's from the University of Nebraska at Omaha, and further course-work taken at the University of Maryland and Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore. "This was not a clinical diagnosis. I asked the following questions: 'Can diabetes cause personality changes? Can pain cause excessive anger and irascibility?'. The answers were 'yes'. "No one mentioned whether Carl specifically stated that he was in pain. I simply assumed (and don't bother dragging out that tired old saw), based on the experience of an aged relative who died from a heart condition, that Carl would have been in pain. "My friend is not a 'net.shrink'. She was not attempting a diagnosis of a specific person. She was simply answering a few simple questions that I thought I knew the answers to, but wanted confirmation for." > : "Diabetes can cause mood swings, and even mild personality disorders, as > : the brain is continually short-changed in its food supply. Also, Carl > : had congestive heart disease, I have been told, and was scheduled for a > : sextuple bypass operation. He must have been in incredible pain. That > : pain, combined with whatever medication he was taking, could have caused > : long-term problems, including his general irascibility. > > "Nice theory, except for the *tiny* problem that he WASN'T IN PAIN, > not that I knew of anyway. (Polymath? Soprano? Did he complain > at all of pain that you knew of?) In email to me in June, just before he > went off the net, he told me the medications he was on were handling > the CHF just fine, and that his condition was stable. He said, given > the complications of his diabetes anyway, having the operation wouldn't > change the quality of his life. Somehow I suspect 'being free of pain' > would count as a change in the quality of his life, no? "If being free of pain would have changed the quality of his life, then he must have been in pain. You just reversed your earlier position. Which is accurate?" > "It's not impossible that he was having problems regulating his > blood sugar; but he was very very alert to problems in that area, > and did try to maintain tight control by testing often. He wasn't > an idiot, you know. Or at least, not *that* kind of idiot." "Of, for crying out loud. At what point did I attack Carl's intelligence? Diabetes is very difficult to control, and very unpredictable, judging by everything I've ever heard about the condition. In another post, someone (I'm not sure whom - it might even have been you) said that Carl had been taken to the ER because he had passed out and started coughing up blood due to complications from his diabetes. Doesn't that suggest that even a highly intelligent person can experience diabetes-related trauma? If his diabetes was so severe and/or unpredictable that an intelligent, careful, methodical person like Carl could succumb to that degree, is it not possible that some sort of minor, but chronic, problems were there? "I did not mean he was too stupid to monitor his condition. I just meant that diabetes is not yet completely understood (once again, judging by my admittedly incomplete knowledge in the field), and mood-altering side-effects are well enough known that a retired psychologist has heard of them." > "As far as iracibility goes, he's been that way for decades. And > recently there were a lot of threads going on in at least three > newsgroups where he was faced with both idiots and misinterpretations. > Just how short would your fuse be, under those conditions?" "If the people in these newsgroups were making me that angry, I'd probably just quit posting to them. My health is more important than trying to make an idiot see the light, which most of them never will, no matter how hard you try." > : "There is also this to consider: a number of people said that he was > : soft-spoken in person. It could be that it was only online that he was > : able to vent all the anger and pain he was in, and so it was the online > : communities that bore the brunt. > > "ooo, are you lucky StM I'SNT here. But if I told you he once defended > a lady bartender's honor (against two assholes who were harassing her) > by using an ashtray as a weapon (the fight lasted about a minute and > a half, he said) would you rethink the above bit of bullshit? He never > said he didn't insult people to their faces; in fact, he said he *did*." "Let's go back and re-read what I posted. 'A number of people said that he was soft-spoken in person.' Since I never met the man in person, I could only accept what those who had met him said. "Besides, being soft-spoken does not mean one is a coward who will not stand up for what is right." > : "One last thought: I read that Carl refused the bypass operation, 'for > : reasons known only to himself'. That sort of seemingly irrational act > : just might have been due to encroaching arteriosclerosis, which does not > : only affect the elderly, and which can make someone extremely edgy and > : angry. > > "Great. The above would have gotten you *nuked* by StM. His major reason > for postponing the operation was, in fact, posted by him here, in June. > So it was *not* 'known only to himself.' Next theory? Try to make it > based in *facts* this time, eh?" "Yet another case where you must re-read my post. I was quoting SOMEONE ELSE! I did not just pull this off the top of my head. So his reasoning was not unknown. Yet again, I was accepting what was said by people who seemed to know more about him than I did." > : "Pain does strange things to the brain, and diabetes doesn't help. > : While this does not necessarily excuse bad behavior (and I doubt Carl > : would want an excuse anyway), it may help others understand it." > > "You're right that he never used even wonky blood sugar as an excuse > for anything. He *insisted* on taking responsibility for his actions, > no matter what, and said so in a post, I remember." "I never once said he wasn't responsible. In my opinion, even the most arteriosclerotic, irrational, nasty puke I've ever met (and I'm thinking of someone in particular here) is responsible for his own actions. HOWEVER, after I learned he was arteriosclerotic, I disliked him a little less, and his irrationality made sense. "I was only trying to give some possible reasons for the behavior Carl exhibited. Quite a few people seemed hurt by his anger, and I thought, 'Gee, maybe it wasn't all personal. Maybe he wasn't just an angry, nasty, hateful, spiteful bastard. Maybe all the good things people are saying about him are true also. Maybe I wasn't entirely wrong in my judgement of him, based on the all-too-few posts of his that I read before he went offline. Maybe I can suggest a few possiblilities that might help people feel a little less angry and a little less hurt.' "What the hell is wrong with that? "By the way, if you read carefully, you will see that I NEVER ONCE said 'I am right, this is the way it is.' Instead, it was always 'maybe' and 'could have been' and so on. "So why did you feel a need to respond to my post by makin personal assaults against my intelligence and capabilities, and those of someone whom you have never met?" ...Looking Wolf Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!jobone!news2.acs.oakland.edu!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!caen!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: "Lydia M. Uribe" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:58:01 -0700 Organization: Rancho Cucamonga Shelter for Maladjusted Singers ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <32272BA9.5FC5@ibm.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> ~Reply-To: uribe@ibm.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ont-ca6-28.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 30 11:03:06 AM PDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159064 Leslie wrote: > "Nice theory, except for the *tiny* problem that he WASN'T IN PAIN, > not that I knew of anyway. (Polymath? Soprano? Did he complain > at all of pain that you knew of?) No, he never complained of pain in my presence -- but he never complained, *period*, not even when he was very obviously sick. Soprano -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lydia M. Uribe, Claremont, CA uribe@ix.netcom.com | | Cats, quilts, and diving: what more could anyone ask? | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: glo@io.com (Gareth L Owen) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 11:06:19 -0500 Organization: Illuminati Online ~Lines: 38 Message-ID: <5073hr$giq@bermuda.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <501m5l$f0h@medea.gp.usm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bermuda.io.com In article <501m5l$f0h@medea.gp.usm.edu>, Jim M. Pierce wrote: > A small dot climbs the steep stairs. The stairs connect the >meadow to the moon. No easy way by starship this time. No speedy >trip and a quick return. Linda and Robbie wait patiently near the >plaque. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CRASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > >Dreamy Jim, Linda the Starship, and Robbie the Robot. > > > DJ walks back down those stairs, and sits in the meadow, where the >green grass grows, by his wild alone. > >[and if any disagree, tough.] A figure watches for a moment from the edge of the meadow, careful not to intrude on DJ's solitude. He whispers, faintly, "Oh Jim, that was nobly done" Then he turns and leaves. The Stranger [If you need to talk to someone DJ, well, I'll listen] -- Gareth L Owen |\_/| Roleplayer, karate man, shadowrunner glo@io.com (o o) Itinerant mountaineer and cynical idealist finger for PGP key \_/ http://www.io.com/~glo/ "Think for yourself - that means YOU citizen!" Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!panix!news.columbia.edu!news ~From: tjl9@columbia.edu (Tom Lee) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:56:22 -0400 Organization: Columbia Law Library ~Lines: 29 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> <502kj1$gvi@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32265a95.587245023@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: beleriand.law.columbia.edu X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v1.00 (30 Day Trial) In article <32265a95.587245023@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, harkerii@ix.netcom.com says... > It's been a week from hell for me as well. My mother went >into the hospital with heart trouble yesterday, and my uncle >(mother's side) is having difficulty with a brain tumor. > Mom will be fine, Uncle will be fine after his operation in >November. ((keep saying it, over and over again)) > {Sigh.} "Well, you have my best wishes that what you say will be true," says Tom. "This week has been a tough one for me as well ... here at the law school it's 'Profession of Law' week, a one-week intensive course on professional responsibility for the third-year students. I have to videotape every minute of every class, sometimes in two rooms at once, and even show some videos to boot. It's the roughest week of the year. Granted, not a tragedy, but it is draining." >Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've >killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed >Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable >animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards "That," Tom adds, "is one of my favorite movies." -- Take care, Tom Lee (tjl9@columbia.edu) "Lamplighter" Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!jobone!news2.acs.oakland.edu!condor.ic.net!branch.com!aanews.merit.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.flint.umich.edu!news.gmi.edu!news.sojourn.com!cancer.vividnet.com!news.wildstar.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 14:04:11 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 164 Message-ID: <507dvb$i82@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159071 On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:12:40 -0500 in alt.callahans, Alan B. Combs said: : : Leslie: : >All of a sudden, Leslie realizes the irony...this will be the last time : >Speaker's name is in the title of a thread... : : Alan: : Very excellent posting, Leslie. As well as helping your grieving process, : this will be very helpful to many of the rest of us. I have been : emotionally wiped the last couple of days, along with many others. "It's not that part of me isn't thinking, what can it really hurt, now, if people misinterpret him? But just on the off chance that he does still care, somewhere, I feel I have to continue to do as I have done in the past; present my point of view, and what I remember him saying, so that things I know he would've disagreed with don't pass by unchallenged. It was his intense dislike of being misinterpreted that lead to so many many of his flames; it was as basic to who he was as his devotion to logic. I wasn't there, and couldn't help him, in RL. This I can do." : Leslie: : >"Don't jump to conclusions. There were a lot of flames then, true, : >but don't forget that he was involved in defending himself against : >misinterpretations. And perhaps it was just chemically pure chance : >that several subjects came up at once that fit his criteria for : >'things which deserve to be flamed.' : : Alan: : This possibility is stipulated. "He was also in simultaneous flamewars in at least three newsgroups. That couldn't have helped his tolerance or patience levels. And he did once confess that perhaps dealing with true and utter idiots elsewhere on the net left him not in the best frame of mind when leaving them, and coming here." : Leslie: : >Painting him as being so : >unself-aware of his own emotional state does him a major disservice." : : Alan: : I feel this is an example of the all too frequently fuzzy and maleable : meanings of words, resulting in the sending of messages that were not : intended. I did not mean to imply that Carl was self-unaware. To the : contrary, I believe he was *highly* self-aware, something that would : clearly add to the angst of his situation. I apologize, if my posting was : interpreted otherwise. "Okay. But you were attributing his emotional state to the state of his health, and he did vehemently deny that his health played any part in giving him problems he wasn't able to cope with, emotionally. (Speaking strictly in terms of before he left the net; I am haunted by wondering what losing his job and his net access did to him.)" : Leslie: : >"I hope you aren't referring to the God of the Old and New Testament. : >StM really hated that guy a lot. The God of the Deists, he'd be : >willing to go along with..." : : Alan: : Yeah, I was referring to the God of the Testaments -- and I did do it on : purpose. Very clearly, Carl did not like any aspect about Him. My only : response is that the God that Carl hated and the God I cannot, dare not : hate are *not* the same Person, even if the same name is used. Inasmuch : as we believers have, by our behaviors, provided Carl (and others) with : evidence for his beliefs, we will be held accountable. "It's just that the God described in the Bible wasn't at all *logical* to him. There were too many contradictions, too many things that seemed to make no sense. There's no way he'd buy into a God that didn't make sense, especially in the absence of concrete evidence." : On the other hand, one of the frequent comments people have made in this : thread is about Carl's inability or refusal to concede that there might be : any legit interpretation of what was said, other than his. "Not necessarily. That would've depended entirely on what it was, and how convincing the argument was for the other side. I can remember at least once taking a stand that disagreed with his; I didn't get flamed, because I bolstered my argument as logically as I could. He argued back, but didn't flame at all. He presented his opinion; I presented mine. And since I *did* have some logic to my side, he didn't exactly say I was *wrong*, just that I might not be *right*, either. "(I was just re-reading my first run-in with him. I didn't get called 'moron,' but he did make a few cutting remarks. But, as I told him in email at the time, I blithely ignored the sarcasm, and just replied to him politely. Deep in the depths of my evil heart, I planned to kill him with kindness. No *way* was I going to let him best me...)" : I think that : ambiguity in conveyed meaning, even though none was intended, is one of : the tragedies of human existence. Because of this aspect of Carl's : nature, his ambiguity-blindness, "He wasn't blind; I think he just applied Occam's Razor to everything. His certainty in his opinions came from the fact that he *had* carefully considered all the angles, to the best of his ability, before settling on a conclusion. As for his habit of taking things literally, well, that's just how he was *built*, near as I can tell; also he was passionate about precision with his words, and, rightly or wrongly, rather expected the same of others. Or at least, that they not spend a lot of time defending a particular position, and then turn around and say 'oh, that's not exactly what I meant after all...' People who did that he labeled dishonest." : I suspect he would not have been capable : of receiving any theological argument, not matter how well-framed it might : have been. "Well, no, he wouldn't have taken anything seriously, if you couldn't back up what you said with any evidence. And I doubt the Bible counted as evidence in his eyes." : Thus, I have not gone deeply into apologetics (explanation and : interpretation of doctrine) in several of the recent relevant threads. I : admit this may be a cop-out, however. "You saved yoursef a lot of useless typing, trust me. I've seen him argue with Christians before. A more fruitless endeavour would be difficult to imagine." : Finally, (as was developed by C.S. Lewis), it is much better to be a : person that hates God, rather than one that is apathetic. Hate is active, : the person cares, and God can deal with that. When a person just does not : give a rat's ass, that person cannot be moved. "Ah, but it *was* only the God described in the Bible that he hated the idea of; he did not hate the idea of a god per se. He was a skeptical agnostic; his position was, he didn't see any evidence that there was, or had to be, a god, but that there wasn't any proof that there wasn't a god, either. So he reserved judgement on the issue. As I said, he would've been willing to go along with the idea of the God of the Deists, because that god made sense to him, from what he could see of the way things worked." : Alan (First Posting): : >: C R A S H (then hugs and tears around) : : Leslie: : >Thank you. : : Alan: : Also, Leslie, thank you. Your comments, history, and caring continue to be : very helpful. "Well, I'm sort of on automatic pilot, I think. I imagine I'll run down eventually. I'm glad if it's helping someone else too, though." : This is my second version of this message. I was wrestling : with myself as to whether I should just email this to you, or more : generally post it to the friends in alt.callahans. I had just chosen the : latter when my computer bombed. I think some of my initial wording was : stronger, but it is gone forever. So be it. "I *hate* when that happens. Usually in the middle of a long email, too. I really ought to learn to do stuff offline, so I don't get zapped by lost telnet connections..." Leslie. cc: Alan Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!informer.alliance.net!news ~From: Lissa & Eric McCollum ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:20:01 -0400 Organization: Alliance Network, Inc. (GRR MI) (616-774-3010) ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <322730D1.4CFF@alliance.net> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <5019uv$659@zot.io.org> <32249C8F.51DF@pacbell.net> <32264326.10BD@ibm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gr14.ppp.alliance.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158954 Lissa steps up to the chalk line, and raises her glass. "My toast is to Speaker. When all is said and done, this place will not be the same without you." She gauges carefully, and precisely hurls her glass into the fireplace. The liquid sprays out, creating a storm of flames as the glass shatters. *CRASH* Lissa Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp.coast.net!trellis.wwnet.com!news.inc.net!news ~From: Ager or Persson ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:00:23 -0600 Organization: Internet Connect, Inc. The Wisconsin ISP 414-476-4266 http://www.inc.net ~Lines: 28 Message-ID: <32277287.214C@discover-net.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <504bbl$4cb@decaxp.harvard.edu> <50596h$a8r@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.230.195.81 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I) Leslie wrote: > > On 29 Aug 1996 15:01:09 GMT in alt.callahans, > Rachel Meredith Kadel said: > : He was found dead in his apartment on Friday. The cause of death is now > : listed as diabetes. > > "I'd imagine he's objecting strenuously to that, too--he did comment > once that it was more accurate to say 'died of diabetes-related > complications.' One doesn't die *of* diabetes, unless..." she says, > going pale. "Unless he'd quit taking his insulin. Is there a way > to get more information that this?" > > Leslie. It sounded as if Speaker suffered from plenty of complications of diabetes, since he was only forty, yet scheduled for a sextuple bypass. (I saw an autopsy of a 44 y.o. diabetic woman once; her coronary arteries were very nearly occluded). But I don't see how a coroner or M.E. could list "diabetes" (never mind hair-splitting over the correct name) as the cause of death unless it was one of two things: insulin shock (low blood sugar) or diabetic coma (high blood sugar). Of those two things, it's most likely that Speaker got caught by insulin shock; it kills more quickly and happens more frequently than diabetic coma. If Speaker was a brittle diabetic, anything (stress, exercise, food or medication intake, etc.) easily could have tipped him out of balance. Beth Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 11:43:07 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 46 Message-ID: <506k4b$b7d@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158987 looking wolf: >: "I had wondered about this myself," says the wolf, "so, after I learned >: a bit more about Carl (posthumously, unfortunately), I asked a friend of >: mine who is a psychologist. She said that Carl's medical conditions >: could easily have affected his personality. leslie: >"Wonderful. Diagnosing someone she'd never even met, based on third- >hand, incorrect, incomplete, information. What diploma-mill did SHE come >out of? Speaker took a *real* dim view of people who fancied themselves >'net.shrinks,' too. Especially since they never got it *right*..." [ ] >"It's not impossible that he was having problems regulating his >blood sugar; but he was very very alert to problems in that area, >and did try to maintain tight control by testing often. He wasn't >an idiot, you know. Or at least, not *that* kind of idiot." kitten butts in...."sometimes he was. sometimes he screwed up and sometimes he got bad test equipment. and sometimes i think he just didn't care. you are right, however, that he would have been pissed off by any diagnosis." >"As far as iracibility goes, he's been that way for decades. And >recently there were a lot of threads going on in at least three >newsgroups where he was faced with both idiots and misinterpretations. >Just how short would your fuse be, under those conditions?" "not to mention having way to much time on his hands due to unemployment. every time i called the bar (except for the last time) he was there." >Leslie. Who was rereading her old files to find the story of the > bar fight...oh damn, oh damn...man, was I NOSY... "i wish i had been more nosy....but i hate rejection." kitten is holding on, still....but damnit, i'm pissed off. (why didn't he call me?) -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 17:07:07 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 75 Message-ID: <507l5r$j9i@zot.io.org> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <5019uv$659@zot.io.org> <32249C8F.51DF@pacbell.net> <32264326.10BD@ibm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158952 On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:25:58 -0700 in alt.callahans, Lydia M. Uribe said: : He knew, because I'd told him in so many words, that I was aware of what : the responsibility might entail, and he also knew that I had at least : one major source of emotional support in the event that the decision to : "pull the plug" became necessary. When I heard nothing further from him : on the subject, I assumed that he had decided to designate one of the : others on his list as his agent. : : "Carl always insisted upon being taken literally at his word. I assumed : that he would accord me the same courtesy. According to Leslie's : posting, evidently I was wrong. While I understand and appreciate his : concerns, I deeply regret that he did not discuss them with me. "I hope the email I forwarded to you from him on the subject makes his feelings clearer, Lydia. And I'm unsurprised to find that I raised the same issues you have. I wish I could remember how he phrased it, when he brought it up in a post here...it did leave the impression with me that (he thought, at least) you were aware of his concerns. But I might be misremembering... "He did take you at your word. But still he was unwilling to chance being the cause of screwing up your life, because he cared about you." "I gave arguing him out of that idea my best shot. I even came up with a way around his concern, too. But he didn't reply to that email, so I don't know what he thought of my suggestion." : "Carl, I wish we had known each other better -- it might have prevented : a misunderstanding, and who knows, you might still have been with us. I : know that you scoffed at the idea of God, but I also remember you : sitting in the front pew during a church service in which I sang. I : remember you defiantly riding every roller-coaster ride at Disneyland : with Abner and me, despite the signs warning people with heart : conditions not to ride. And I still giggle at the image that came to : mind the last time I saw you when you described a hungry Kzin with a : pistol in hand surrounded by monkey meat.... "A couple of my favorite memories are the time he officially declared me 'not a moron,' (wow, did *that* seem like a compliment, coming from HIM), and once in email when I said something about scratching his ears, and he replied PURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Leslie shrugs helplessly. "How could I not have a soft spot in my heart for a man who *purrs*? And then there was the time my reading comprehension went totally out the window, and I said a really stupid thing, and I wondered if he wanted to be seen with such an airhead, and he said, 'hey, no problem, I have an IQ-tester for blondes...' and then produced an air-pressure gauge...that made me laugh, and got me to stop feeling so embarrassed. It was just the *right* thing to say to me." : "Wherever you are, I hope that you're healthy -- and try not to give God : too hard a time, OK? I'll miss you...." "Me too. Oh, me too..." : She turns to the Polymath, and buries her face in his shoulder, sobbing : quietly. "Polymath? If your other shoulder isn't taken, could I borrow it for a bit?" Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.radix.net!news ~From: "Chris Barnhart" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 13:08:13 GMT Organization: RadixNet Internet Services ~Lines: 45 Message-ID: <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin3.annex5.radix.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 -- > "Great. The above would have gotten you *nuked* by StM. His major reason > for postponing the operation was, in fact, posted by him here, in June. > So it was *not* 'known only to himself.' Next theory? Try to make it > based in *facts* this time, eh?" Leslie, you seem to suffer from the same condition as StM suffered. EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, whether based in fact or not. What some of us are saying (and which you REFUSE to allow) is that we didn't *care* to delve into the personality of StM and I personally don't care *how* he rationalized his obnoxious behavior on or offline. Go back and reading Looking Wolf's post again. No one offered diagnosis. The shrink, as you so adroitly put it conveyed her feelings using the word "could". You don't think that medications causing a swing in temperment is a possibility? And where was the diagnosis, huh? Why the hell are you trying to take apart almost everyone who differs with your construct of StM's personality? Regardless of who Carl really was (which only he could ever have known entirely), we all have our own opinions about him. If you want to discredit everyone who doesn't buy into the Carl as great teacher and pointer out of all wrongs, then fine. Does that mean we're wrong? Hardly. Frankly, who the hell cares what StM would have said about Wolf's post, or any others for that matter? I'm sorry, but I'm just a little bit sick of this. And, considering your own strong stance on netiquette and the FAQ based on an earlier conversation we had, I'm just a little bit surprised at you. ______________________________________________________________________ _ Chris Barnhart - TechnoPup | "Verbosity leads to unclear, cbarnhart@radix.net | inarticulate things." http://www.radix.net/~cbarnhart | -Dan Quayle ________________________________|_____________________________________ _ Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!mozz.unh.edu!hopper.unh.edu!mca ~From: mca@hopper.unh.edu (Marc C Allain) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 23:57:33 GMT Organization: University of New Hampshire - Durham, NH ~Lines: 64 Message-ID: <507v5d$pja@mozz.unh.edu> ~References: <50180o$3sr@zot.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: hopper.unh.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158964 Patchmaker finishes his dance with Kitten with a courtly bow and faces the room. A tall figure in black robes hands him a fresh cup of coffee. "Thanks. I was wondering if you would show." "*********************************" "Yes, but you don't always come when called and usually arrive unlooked for." "***********************" "Well, you know you are always welcome - if you're off the clock." "*********************************************************" "Yes. You're right. It is my turn to share. Feel free to wait at my table. I won't be long." "*****" "Friends. My introduction to Speaker to Minerals came right after my own introductory post a little over three years ago. As was the custom then, I introduced myself, stating my favorite drink and my birthdate. "Carl replied promptly, noting that he and I shared a birthday. "We shared a few laughs here and there, once or twice, suc as the time we tried to work out labels for differing types of agnostics. (e.g. fundamentalist agnostic, born-again agnostic,) and what those labels would mean. "I saw his caring side. I saw his attempts to inform and correct and encourage further study. "I also caught the rough side of his tongue more than once. Both in open postings and in e-mail. Sometimes justly as when he took me to task for mis-attributions. Sometimes, I feel, unjustly. We called each other names - usually indirectly. (For example - he didn't come out and call me a Nazi, but 'Heil Marc' gets the idea across.) "What I liked about him most was his breadth of knowledge, which reflected, I believe, an abiding fascination with the universe he found himself in. "What I liked least was his intellectual dishonesty verging at times on hipocracy. The way he would trash folks, including me, for any sloppy reasoning or invalid arguments or using opinion as fact - and then he would commit these same sins himself. And when I called him on it a few times, he never once admitted his error. No reply at all on the times I caught him cheating." "Yeah, Speaker pissed me off more than once. And I annoyed him on occasion as well. He was a man. An imperfect human being. As am I. "One way or another, (or often one way and another) he touched our lives. I won't miss him. The important parts are part of us, and the cheap chemicals will soon be recycled. "So a toast. To Carl Lydick, aka Speaker to Minerals. May your flames be the light that greets us on the other side!" With that, Patchmaker drinks down his coffee and places the mug in the fireplace. The he returns to his table to converse with Death. -- If you need me, I'll be down in the lab, mixing metaphors Patchmaker Marc C. Allain mca@christa.unh.edu http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mca Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 06:09:57 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5096i5$8tg@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 31 Aug 1996 04:18:09 GMT in alt.callahans, Roland X said: : Please forgive me but...on second thought, _don't_ forgive me : if you don't want to. StM _hated_ false remorse. : BWAH-HA-HA-HA! : Honestly, would this thread truly have been complete without : _someone_ ripping someone else apart? Leslie peers at Roland curiously. "Do you really truly no kidding think that what I said should be categorized as 'ripping someone apart'--? If so, we are working with very different definitions of the meaning of that phrase." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 03:04:03 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3227ab45.70986333@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <504baj$59q@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <505aor$7ij@kf8nh.apk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co15-22.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 30 10:09:53 PM CDT 1996 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158981 The Ever-So-Wise bsa@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) wrote: ->(We need a new local NIDDM expert. Any takers? Or maybe I should do it, ->since I should really bone up anyway so I can make sure my boss is taking ->care of himself --- he was diagnosed with NIDDM earlier this month. Dammit, ->I was going to ask Speaker for tips...) -> Well, obviously, it won't be me. I really need to bone up on this kind of stuff myself, considering. JOhn [humm.. maybe I really should call my Dr...] Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.izzy.net!news.izzy.net!not-for-mail ~From: tomsmith@izzy.net (Tom Smith) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 07:56:47 -0400 Organization: Isthmus Corporation ~Lines: 123 Message-ID: <50999v$r1i@izzy4.izzy.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <501m5l$f0h@medea.gp.usm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: izzy.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Jim M. Pierce (jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu) wrote: : A small dot climbs the steep stairs. The stairs connect the : meadow to the moon. No easy way by starship this time. No speedy : trip and a quick return. Linda and Robbie wait patiently near the : plaque. : The figure moves slowly with his burden. Step by painful step. : Exercise hasn't been done by him in years. A trip of this many : thousand miles takes a very long time. : : He appears to be carrying something. What it is, isn't exactly : clear. It is heavy, very heavy, but DJ doesn't drop it or : put it down for a rest. : He could ask for Linda's help, but wont. : He could ask for other folk's help, but wont. : He would refuse help, if it was offered. : Days go by. Weeks. The extremes of outer space. : DJ finally arrives at the plaque. He struggles with the object. : Its a plaque of gold and bronze. And upon it is written in mithril. : "Good-bye Carl Speaker-To-Minerals Lydick. : I will miss your friendship : Sometimes we disagreed : You told some great puns. : And I just _know_ that Death : had second thoughts by the time you were through with him ! : Good-bye to someone I was Proud to call Friend !" : The plaque is placed upon the lunar soil. On a small stand by : itself, for Carl was one of a kind, and he stood apart, a cat : who walked by himself, his wild alone. But I do know he had : friends, for I am one of them. : A song wanders through DJ's mind: : 'softly falls the light, : as the sun sits down behind the hills, : a new star shines up in the sky, : it waxes and wanes, : much as the person whom it represents did. : I will miss him, : Good night my friend, : Good night.' : >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CRASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< : Dreamy Jim, Linda the Starship, and Robbie the Robot. : : DJ walks back down those stairs, and sits in the meadow, where the : green grass grows, by his wild alone. : [and if any disagree, tough.] At the bottom, those weeks later, DJ finds Tom, sitting in the darkness, fingers steepled, guitar on the ground next to him. It looks like he's been there awhile. His eyes flicker up to meet DJ's, and he flashes a weak, bitter smile. "How deep?" Before DJ can breathe to ask what he means, Tom goes on. "I didn't know the man. I didn't *want* to know him. I read many of the threads he posted in, shaking my head in wonder that The Patrons didn't rise up en masse and kick his rude, flaming ass out of here." His shoulders shake in a chuckle, then continue to shake as the sobs begin. "Half the time, I didn't even care if he was right or wrong. It was how he behaved, what he called people. As if *I'm* the perfect example of how to comport onesself. "The macho, dashing, wanna-be-heroic cretin hiding in my gut used to pace back and forth, wanting to defend the virtue of kitten and Ilene. I wanted to, pleasantly and politely and with perfect logic, cram every one of those 'shit-for-brains' down his throat sideways. But I never did. Partly because they weren't my fights, and partly because I was terrified he'd grab some minute mistake and ream me a new hole "But you." Tom's gaze, brighter for the tears, fixes on DJ. "You *walk to the fucking moon* for him. Do you know how deeply that touched me? Because that's not one-thousandth as deeply as he must have touched you." Tom reaches out for his guitar. "Here's to Speaker, a persona I did not like, and to Carl, a man I did not know, who touched and changed many in his determined attempt to rid the universe's brains of shit." He pauses, unsure for a moment of what to sing. Then that huge, gap-toothed grin breaks out, and DJ hears the strains of an old Donovan tune that, for reasons which quickly become evident, never got much airplay. "Ohhh, the Intergalactic Laxative Will get you from here to there, Relieve you, and, believe me, Without a worry or care. If shitting is your problem When you're out there in the stars, Oh, the Intergalactic Laxative Will get you from here to Mars...." -------------- -- Best, +-------------------------------+-------------------------------+ | Tom Smith (tomsmith@izzy.net) | Amiga - Babylon 5 - MST3K | | The World's Fastest Filker | http://www.izzy.net/~tomsmith | +-------------------------------+-------------------------------+ Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!dby-ct2-09.ix.netcom.com!user ~From: rolandx@ix.netcom.com (Roland X) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 04:18:09 GMT Organization: Me? Organized? ;^) ~Lines: 41 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dby-ct2-09.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 30 9:18:09 PM PDT 1996 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158995 In article <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com>, Looking Wolf wrote: > Leslie wrote: > > > > On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:46:07 -0700 in alt.callahans, > > Looking Wolf said: > > : > > : "I had wondered about this myself," says the wolf, "so, after I learned > > : a bit more about Carl (posthumously, unfortunately), I asked a friend of > > : mine who is a psychologist. She said that Carl's medical conditions > > : could easily have affected his personality. > > > > "Wonderful. Diagnosing someone she'd never even met, based on third- > > hand, incorrect, incomplete, information. What diploma-mill did SHE come > > out of? Speaker took a *real* dim view of people who fancied themselves > > 'net.shrinks,' too. Especially since they never got it *right*..." > "By the way, if you read carefully, you will see that I NEVER ONCE said > 'I am right, this is the way it is.' Instead, it was always 'maybe' and > 'could have been' and so on. > > "So why did you feel a need to respond to my post by makin personal > assaults against my intelligence and capabilities, and those of someone > whom you have never met?" > > ...Looking Wolf Please forgive me but...on second thought, _don't_ forgive me if you don't want to. StM _hated_ false remorse. BWAH-HA-HA-HA! Honestly, would this thread truly have been complete without _someone_ ripping someone else apart? I hope Speaker, wherever he is, is enjoying the show... -- Truth beyond Paradox. Roland X, Freelance Immortal "Do not become your enemy to defeat your enemy." -epitaph, Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) Path: news2.digex.net!access4!dpm ~From: dpm@access4.digex.net (David P. Murphy) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 08:23:38 -0400 Organization: Phase of the Moon Software Inc. Alexandria, VA ~Lines: 45 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net "Chris Barnhart" writes: >Leslie wrote: >>"The net didn't 'bring out the worst in him,' not in the sense that >>you mean it, I think. Over and over and over again, every time >>the subject came up, he repeated one thing: his flames were deliberate >>and calculated for effect, the effect of making it *crystal clear* >>what he thought of something. >I absolutely disagree. It *did* bring out the worst in him. Calling >someone a moron or shit for brains or anything else like that hardly >EVER causes them to think. And, as anal-retentive and nit picky as >Carl was, it should have been a fairly obvious distinction for him >that saying someone is stupid is much different than saying something >someone says is stupid. PhaseOfTheMoon nods his head in silent agreement. >My impressions of Carl's flaming tendencies were that he had a lot of >inner rage he couldn't take out elsewhere, that he had a terminal >Napoleonic complex, that he had little regards for how anyone felt, >other than himself. > >Am I wrong? Perhaps. But with the way he presented himself, >to whom should I credit the false impression? by now, Phase's head is nodding so fast, he resembles Dilbert's boss pretending to understand a technical discussion merely by agreeing. Phase's #1 rule when communicating with a non-RL person is to remember "I do not know or understand this person." Phase is sure that Chris's quick little psycho-analysis of Speaker is wrong in some respects, if not most or even all. but it's certainly the impression that a lot of people received. and someone who used the net as much as speaker should have realized the picture he was painting. then again, perhaps he really and truly didn't give a damn what that picture was. ok dpm -- David P. Murphy mailto:murphy@connor.datametrics.com (work) systems programmer mailto:dpm@access.digex.net (personal) http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm COGITO ERGO DISCLAIMUM ftp://ftp.access.digex.net/pub/access/dpm Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.supernet.net!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news ~From: Pixel@sprynet.com(TCWWTW) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 06:54:09 GMT Organization: Ineffective ~Lines: 16 Message-ID: <508nih$g67@juliana.sprynet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: hd39-085.compuserve.com X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.) > kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) writes: > kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called > speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl > was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone > out there can help, please do." > > she raises her glass in a silent toast. Upon reading this Pixel just sits on the bar twirling his glass in his paws, Than deciding there is nothing to say which hasn't already been said he places the glass in the fireplace and wanders off. Pixel I couldda sworn there was sopposed to be a .sig file here, but now I can't find it Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 14:28:34 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50a3p2$ll6@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159055 On 31 Aug 1996 08:23:38 -0400 in alt.callahans, David P. Murphy said: : and someone who used : the net as much as speaker should have realized the picture he was : painting. "How could he not realize, what with people telling him this over and over and over again through the years? He got called as many names as he called others." : then again, perhaps he really and truly didn't give a : damn what that picture was. "He didn't care in the slightest about being liked or not, anyway. He had his priorities, and he knew what they were, and he held to them come hell or high water--and he paid the cost for it, too. If that cost had been too high, or if he wasn't achieving what he wanted to acheive, he would've changed tactics." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 15:08:25 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 82 Message-ID: <50a63p$mog@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <32263D91.457F@prolog.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158955 On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:02:09 -0400 in alt.callahans, Kevin D. Knerr, Sr. said: : I finally "found" Callahan's a few months ago. Among the first things : that happened to me were that I was a) *warned* about StM and b) warned : about *StM*. Needless to say, I plunged right on in, fully confident of : my own knowledge and abilities. I tried to not let the warnings : prejudice my opinion of him. Leslie smiles a little. "Well, when you see someone about to stick their hand into a buzzsaw, a warning is an appropriate thing, I think. I still sort of wonder why Christians were sometimes so determined to voluntarily feed themselves to that particular Kzin..." : While I never knew Carl, the man behind the persona, and I only knew StM : for a short time, I feel confident in saying the following: : Carl was a polymath, exceptionally brilliant in several fields. : Carl held rigid definitions of truth, freedom, and choice. (Which : should explain to prior posters why he described himself as a : "non-insulin dependent diabetic who uses insulin". As far as he was : concerned, diabetes did not force him to use insulin--he chose to use : insulin to treat his diabetic condition.) "No; see Brandon's post, if you can, where he explains the difference in the types of diabetes. (IDDM means the body produces no insulin; NIDDM means it produces insulin in some amounts, but the body isn't able to use it properly.)" Another small smile. "He probably would have castigated you for talking about diabetes when you obviously don't know much about it. Get your facts straight *first*, he'd say." : Carl never really cared what people thought of him : personally--objective truth was that much more important to him. : Carl believed that everyone else should hold the same commitment to : objective truth. Given the number of comments I've read, I suspect he : never realized that his abrasive and abusive language was detracting : from his ability to share his knowledge and insights with others. Or he : just plain didn't care. "He figured two things: one, if people didn't listen to him when he corrected them politely, which he generally did to begin with, then they probably weren't going to listen in any case, so *then* he abandoned teaching in favor of providing a hostile environment for whatever the subject was. And, two, he really didn't understand how people could be more concerned over style rather than substance. He figured that was their problem, not his." : Carl, despite his rigorous self-discipline, sometimes failed to : achieve his own high standards in his posts. He would make assumptions : about their starting principles. He held stereotypes and preconceived : notions about others' motives and ideas. : But, IMHO, Carl's tragic flaw was his refusal to acknowledge that : others might succumb to weakness and pain. Because he stood valiantly : against his own infirmity and pain, he could not see why others might : stumble. "He understood about weaknesses, but he absolutely refused to allow anyone to get away with making excuses for themselves. He rather demanded that they take responsibility for themselves, and not shift the blame elsewhere. And I found him to be upfront and honest about his own flaws and foibles." : Someone else has already said that StM would probably castigate us and : berate us for all this sentimental garbage and sanctimonious bullshit. : Maybe so. But he is gone now, and, although he would not mourn, we can : and we must. "I don't know about that, entirely. Tears were not alien to him. I can remember a post, in fact, where somehow the subject of true love had come up; I can't remember exactly how the exchange went, but StM at one point described himself as 'sitting at the keyboard with tears running down his face.' He was not made of stone. He was a man, with feelings that could be hurt as much as if not more than any other person alive. "He was unashamed to cry in public." : To my worthy adversary--may you find truth and peace on the other side : of the threshold. Thank you. Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 16:05:49 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 78 Message-ID: <50a9fd$oc8@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158931 On 29 Aug 1996 20:12:25 GMT in alt.callahans, Chris Barnhart said: : I absolutely disagree. It *did* bring out the worst in him. Calling : someone a moron or shit for brains or anything else like that hardly : EVER causes them to think. "That depends entirely on what it is you want them to be thinking about, though, isn't it? And why is it, that so very many people have said 'he made me *think*'--his flames could make people wary of confronting him without thinking hard first. In that, he succeeded very well indeed. And don't forget that he resorted to flames only if it seemed apparent to him that the person had no intention of thinking or listening in the first place." : And, as anal-retentive and nit picky as : Carl was, it should have been a fairly obvious distinction for him : that saying someone is stupid is much different than saying something : someone says is stupid. : : We've all been there and done that. At least, I know I have. : Whether or not his intentions were clear unto himself, Carl, like all : of us, needed to take the responsibilities for his actions. "He did. Could you explain how he didn't take responsibility?" : Just because he was bright doesn't give him special license to treat : people like crap on an almost (from my perspective) continuous basis. : Anything StM might have had to say to me regarding science, I can : read from a book without the insults, thank you very much. "What did he flame you about, anyway? And who was right, you or him?" : When I've flamed, albeit here or somewhere else, I've been called on : the carpet for it, and perhaps rightfully so. Though I think that : there is a time to express anger. "Okay--so, you have your own personal standards as to what constitutes 'a time to express anger.' Why do you feel that StM should've also been bound by *your* standards, rather than his own? What if StM diagreed with *you* about when and where and how you expressed anger? Would you have agreed to follow his standards after that?" : My impressions of Carl's flaming tendencies were that he had a lot of : inner rage he couldn't take out elsewhere, that he had a terminal : Napoleonic complex, that he had little regards for how anyone felt, : other than himself. "He had a lot of regard for the feelings of others, as I know from personal experience, and so do many others. But he did regard truthfullness and accuracy more important than mere feelings, yes. And, why is it okay for you to express your insulting opinion about a 'Napoleonic complex,' but it wasn't okay for him to express his opinion that someone was a moron?" : Am I wrong? Perhaps. But with the way he presented himself, to whom : should I credit the false impression? IF I suspect a dog of being : hydrophobic, I will hardly test the thesis by approaching it and : petting it on the snout. "Asking him the question, 'why are you doing this?' always got a civil explanation. I know. I have tons of email to prove it, not to mention all the threads where he explained why he did what he did." : I wasn't going to say any of this, not out of respect for StM/Carl, : but for respect for his friends. But it's apparent that everyone who : knew him is aware of the controversy regarding his personality. "I have rather heard it all before, yes." : *I* feel better for having said it, and I guess that's what memorial : is all about. If there is an afterlife of any sort, I can wish for : Carl that he finds there what he is looking for. Would he grant me : the same respect? I honestly don't know. "I don't know either." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!insync!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 23:42:04 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <50b46s$gcq@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> <507dvb$i82@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159021 On 30 Aug 1996 14:04:11 -0500 in alt.callahans, Leslie quoting herself: : I feel I have to continue to do as I have done : in the past; present my point of view, and what I remember him saying, : so that things I know he would've disagreed with don't pass by : unchallenged. It was his intense dislike of being misinterpreted that : lead to so many many of his flames; it was as basic to who he was as : his devotion to logic. I wasn't there, and couldn't help him, in RL. : This I can do." "This is utter bullshit. I'm doing it for me, and nobody else but me." Leslie. I had to say that. He'd have called me a bad name if I didn't. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 01:37:16 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 252 Message-ID: <50baus$jps@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159030 On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:57:35 -0700 in alt.callahans, Looking Wolf said: : "This was not a clinical diagnosis. I asked the following questions: : 'Can diabetes cause personality changes? Can pain cause excessive anger : and irascibility?'. The answers were 'yes'. "Okay, I stand corrected. She didn't play shrink, you did. Did you happen to ask the incidence rate on personality changes due to diabetes? That is, what are the odds of it happening? Does it happen more often to IDDMers or NIDDMers? How long after onset is it most likely to occur, or become noticeable? Is it noticeable in all forms of diabetes, from well-controlled to brittle and unstable? (And I'm sure I'm missing a few questions there, too.) "Get the answers to that, then find out how they apply to StM's situation, and, then, *maybe*, you'd have something there worth calling a theory. But it would still be only that, an untested and untestable theory." : "No one mentioned whether Carl specifically stated that he was in pain. : I simply assumed (and don't bother dragging out that tired old saw), : based on the experience of an aged relative who died from a heart : condition, that Carl would have been in pain. "Oh. Why shouldn't I point out how dumb it can be to assume things, sometimes? Why didn't it occur to you to ask some questions, first?" (Leslie:) : > "Nice theory, except for the *tiny* problem that he WASN'T IN PAIN, : > not that I knew of anyway. (Polymath? Soprano? Did he complain : > at all of pain that you knew of?) In email to me in June, just before he : > went off the net, he told me the medications he was on were handling : > the CHF just fine, and that his condition was stable. He said, given : > the complications of his diabetes anyway, having the operation wouldn't : > change the quality of his life. Somehow I suspect 'being free of pain' : > would count as a change in the quality of his life, no? : : "If being free of pain would have changed the quality of his life, then : he must have been in pain. You just reversed your earlier position. : Which is accurate?" Leslie wonders if she really phrased it that badly, or Looking Wolf just missed the point. Oh well... "Okay, this is what I meant: your theory had him in pain. I rather take for granted that an operation to fix his heart would relieve any existing pain. So, outcome-from-operation=freedom-from-pain. But, he told me that the medications he was taking controlled his CHF (that's congestive heart failure; not heart attack. And my medical dictionary doesn't list 'pain' as a symptom of an episode of CHF, either). He said that an operation wouldn't change the quality of his life. Therefore, condition-with-medications=outcome-from-operation, therefore condition- with-medications=freedom-from-pain. I was asking the rhetorical question, 'don't you think that 'freedom from pain' would qualify as a 'change in the quality of his life?' And since he said there would *be* no change, then, obviously, pain was not a consideration to him." : "Of, for crying out loud. At what point did I attack Carl's : intelligence? Diabetes is very difficult to control, and very : unpredictable, judging by everything I've ever heard about the : condition. "Then you've obviously not heard very much, I guess. Some people are as stable as rocks. Others are brittle. Many others are somewhere in between. Illness can make bg's hard to control, but when in good health, a person who knows their own body, and who pays attention to what they eat, tests regularly, and understands how excercise affects them can maintain very tight control, indeed. Read the group misc.health.diabetes for more info on the subject, and please don't perpetuate the myth that it's 'very difficult to control,' because that's definitely *not* necessarily so. (Right, Rachel?)" In another post, someone (I'm not sure whom - it might even : have been you) said that Carl had been taken to the ER because he had : passed out and started coughing up blood due to complications from his : diabetes. "That was DJ. I don't know the exact details of that incident, though I believe he came close to dying. Will someone who knows the details here please provide them?" Doesn't that suggest that even a highly intelligent person : can experience diabetes-related trauma? If his diabetes was so severe : and/or unpredictable that an intelligent, careful, methodical person : like Carl could succumb to that degree, is it not possible that some : sort of minor, but chronic, problems were there? "That depends on whether or not the hole in his stomach was due to diabetes. I vaguely recall thinking it was something else entirely, perhaps an ulcer (which is caused by a bacteria, and not diabetes)." : "I did not mean he was too stupid to monitor his condition. I just : meant that diabetes is not yet completely understood (once again, : judging by my admittedly incomplete knowledge in the field), and : mood-altering side-effects are well enough known that a retired : psychologist has heard of them." "Well, sure, low blood sugar can make anyone cranky. That's why he specifically gave kitten a 2X4: to whack some sense into him, if she caught him not keeping an eye on it." : > "As far as iracibility goes, he's been that way for decades. And : > recently there were a lot of threads going on in at least three : > newsgroups where he was faced with both idiots and misinterpretations. : > Just how short would your fuse be, under those conditions?" : : "If the people in these newsgroups were making me that angry, I'd : probably just quit posting to them. My health is more important than : trying to make an idiot see the light, which most of them never will, no : matter how hard you try." "You're assuming he was 'that angry.' What if it was more like 'irritated,' instead? : > "ooo, are you lucky StM I'SNT here. But if I told you he once defended : > a lady bartender's honor (against two assholes who were harassing her) : > by using an ashtray as a weapon (the fight lasted about a minute and : > a half, he said) would you rethink the above bit of bullshit? He never : > said he didn't insult people to their faces; in fact, he said he *did*." : : "Let's go back and re-read what I posted. 'A number of people said that : he was soft-spoken in person.' Since I never met the man in person, I : could only accept what those who had met him said. "Okay. Just so you know you got it wrong." : "Besides, being soft-spoken does not mean one is a coward who will not : stand up for what is right." "Agreed there." (Looking Wolf:) : > : "One last thought: I read that Carl refused the bypass operation, 'for : > : reasons known only to himself'. That sort of seemingly irrational act : > : just might have been due to encroaching arteriosclerosis, which does not : > : only affect the elderly, and which can make someone extremely edgy and : > : angry. (Leslie:) : > "Great. The above would have gotten you *nuked* by StM. His major reason : > for postponing the operation was, in fact, posted by him here, in June. : > So it was *not* 'known only to himself.' Next theory? Try to make it : > based in *facts* this time, eh?" : : "Yet another case where you must re-read my post. I was quoting SOMEONE : ELSE! I did not just pull this off the top of my head. So his : reasoning was not unknown. Yet again, I was accepting what was said by : people who seemed to know more about him than I did." "Thank you, LW, for providing a textbook example of exactly, precisely WHY Speaker was wont to tromp, and tromp hard and fast, on misrepresenta- tions of himself: TO PREVENT THEM FROM BEING PERPETUATED. As just happened here; if the person in question had worded what she said accurately, she'd have said 'I don't know the reason,' instead of unconsciously assuming that, because she didn't know, nobody else did, either. (And I *knew* I should've said something about that, I *knew* it...) "But it was you who proposed a theory based on this incorrect statement. And I shot it down. So long as you don't repeat it anymore, so long as you're aware of the facts, that's what counts." : > : "Pain does strange things to the brain, and diabetes doesn't help. : > : While this does not necessarily excuse bad behavior (and I doubt Carl : > : would want an excuse anyway), it may help others understand it." : > : > "You're right that he never used even wonky blood sugar as an excuse : > for anything. He *insisted* on taking responsibility for his actions, : > no matter what, and said so in a post, I remember." : : "I never once said he wasn't responsible. In my opinion, even the most : arteriosclerotic, irrational, nasty puke I've ever met (and I'm thinking : of someone in particular here) is responsible for his own actions. : HOWEVER, after I learned he was arteriosclerotic, I disliked him a : little less, and his irrationality made sense. "Congestive heart failure, please. 'Silent ischemia,' too, I believe he mentioned; I think his first (and so far as I know, only) actual episode of incapacitating CHF happened a year ago July (he went to Wyoming, and the difference in altitude made his heart inadequate to keep up with his oxygen demands, though it was working just the same as it had been, when he was closer to sea level in Pasadena). "And there is a big difference between 'being responsible' and 'taking responsibility.' StM described himself as *chosing* to use insulin-- *chosing*--and he would describe all his other actions as choices, too. He never shifted the blame onto something or someone else." : "I was only trying to give some possible reasons for the behavior Carl : exhibited. Quite a few people seemed hurt by his anger, and I thought, : 'Gee, maybe it wasn't all personal. Maybe he wasn't just an angry, : nasty, hateful, spiteful bastard. Maybe all the good things people are : saying about him are true also. "Err, is there some particular reason they couldn't both be true at the same time--?" : Maybe I wasn't entirely wrong in my : judgement of him, based on the all-too-few posts of his that I read : before he went offline. Maybe I can suggest a few possiblilities that : might help people feel a little less angry and a little less hurt.' : : "What the hell is wrong with that? "Where you went wrong was in doing something you might never have done, had you had the chance to read Speaker for a while longer. You were mostly ignorant of the facts here, and yet, even *knowing* you didn't know, you still presumed to theorize about him, and form opinions about him. And you said it all in a very public forum, which could lead to god only knows how many other people getting the wrong idea, just as you got the wrong idea from someone else. If you had learned StM 101, you would have been much much *much* more careful to get your facts straight, *first*--and you would have been much more aware of the difference between an informed opinion, and an uninformed opinion. "The word StM would have used is 'bullshit.' And he would have fried you to a crisp for doing it, *especially* when the subject of that bullshit was himself. : "By the way, if you read carefully, you will see that I NEVER ONCE said : 'I am right, this is the way it is.' Instead, it was always 'maybe' and : 'could have been' and so on. "You theorized. I shot your theories down. You say, 'oh, sorry, I didn't know, I won't do it anymore.'" : "So why did you feel a need to respond to my post by makin personal : assaults against my intelligence and capabilities, and those of someone : whom you have never met?" "I swear, is *everyone* around here really this thin-skinned? 'Assaults,' 'ripping people up,'--jeeze louise, LW, that wasn't an *assault*. If I was assaulting you, smoke would still be rising up from your fur. Ask Randolph or Zaphkiel, they'll tell you about *assaults*. "But, put yourself in my place. From my point of view, *you* were assaulting Speaker's reputation, first. Now, how would you react, if (just to pick a hypothetical example at random) I were to disparage a friend of yours by, say, suggesting she came out of a diploma mill? "Might you not get a *little* bit touchy--?" Leslie. I considered going with 'grief-stricken' as an excuse, but that would have been a lie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 02:17:07 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 24 Message-ID: <50bd9j$id@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50asgu$hfn@nntp.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159042 On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 02:32:17 GMT in alt.callahans, -Lurch- said: : This here thread is the best tribute to Carl going. It's got : everything in it now. Somewhere in the middle ar a couple flame : battles ala Carl's heyday. Way to go "Piffle. I only flamed Doug because he literally asked for it. That doesn't count, does it? "I am either using a totally different definition of 'flames' than everyone else is, or you're totally misremembering the *real* thing, -Lurch-." : StM is still here - the world is upright once again... "Even if I wanted to--and I don't--I couldn't channel StM (there's a scary thought, eh?). No way could I imitate his analytical abilities. "And if you think we didn't/don't have flamewars where StM was NOT the star participant, think again. He wasn't the only one, not by a long shot..." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 02:30:30 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <50be2m$eb3@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50b8rt$l5u@nadine.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159043 On 1 Sep 1996 06:01:33 GMT in alt.callahans, Randolph Fritz said: : "He was, when not being harsh, funny and kind. And he was a teacher: of : technical specifics, of medicine, and, here in alt.callahans, of critical : thinking. : : "To Carl Lydick!" Smiling and shaking her head, Leslie applauds softly. "Well said, Randolph. So, what do you plan to do with all your free time, now that you don't have to battle that particular monster anymore? :)" Leslie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 22:10:27 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 29 Message-ID: <50ad8j$oo8@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <50180o$3sr@zot.io.org> <507v5d$pja@mozz.unh.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158958 In article <507v5d$pja@mozz.unh.edu>, Marc C Allain wrote: > "What I liked least was his intellectual dishonesty verging at times >on hipocracy. The way he would trash folks, including me, for any >sloppy reasoning or invalid arguments or using opinion as fact - and >then he would commit these same sins himself. And when I called him >on it a few times, he never once admitted his error. No reply at >all on the times I caught him cheating." > Now *that* is a side I never saw. Probably that's a result of the different characters of the forums we knew him on -- I met Speaker on misc.health.diabetes, and didn't ever read callahan's until this thread started. There the factual issues are a lot more cut-and-dried -- philosophical-type discussions rarely come up. And false information there can be quite dangerous. In my experience, he was tough on false or misleading information and inclarity, helpful to genuine requests for information, and *very* willing to admit when he was in error. His (imo valid) excuse for the roughness of his tongue on m.h.d. was "I don't have a whole lot of tolerance for homicidal maniacs who get their kicks by trying to talk folks into killing themselves". (This in a thread in which someone had claimed that yoga cures type I diabetes.) Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 03:33:58 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 92 Message-ID: <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159060 On 30 Aug 1996 13:08:13 GMT in alt.callahans, Chris Barnhart said: : Leslie, you seem to suffer from the same condition as StM suffered. : EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, whether based in fact or not. "Entitled? Sure, everyone has the right to freedom of speech, and they can voice their opinions if they want. But if opinions aren't based in fact, they're worthless, aren't they? The right to express your opinion doesn't grant you the right to have that opinion *respected*, or taken seriously, you know that. And that's something you ought to have learned from StM, too--the difference between an informed opinion and an uninformed opinion." : What some of us are saying (and which you REFUSE to allow) is that we : didn't *care* to delve into the personality of StM and I personally : don't care *how* he rationalized his obnoxious behavior on or : offline. Leslie raises an eyebrow. "For someone who didn't care to delve into his personality, you did a remarkable imitation of it in your other post. "If you're saying you don't think that trying to understand him was worth the energy it would have cost you, fine. No problem. Just as long as you don't then turn around and try to pass yourself off as understanding him, not after admitting you didn't even try to understand. It's okay if you don't like him, it's okay if you didn't respect him or his tactics or his goals; it's not okay if you help perpetuate untruths about him. People *are* delving into his personality; I'm presenting *my* point of view in rebuttal, at times. Tell me how this is 'not allowing' anything? (Well, not allowing inaccuracies to go unchallenged, yes, but that's not what you meant, I think.)" : Go back and reading Looking Wolf's post again. No one offered : diagnosis. The shrink, as you so adroitly put it conveyed her : feelings using the word "could". You don't think that medications : causing a swing in temperment is a possibility? And where was the : diagnosis, huh? "I was mistaken. Looking Wolf got some advice, and then *he* theorized a diagnosis of StM to explain StM's behaviour." : Why the hell are you trying to take apart almost everyone who differs : with your construct of StM's personality? "I made ONE disparaging comment, about a person who isn't even HERE. Please quote the posts where I've been 'trying to take apart almost everyone.' Our definitions of 'taking someone apart' must differ quite radically. I got snippy with Looking Wolf. (Oh, wait, I flamed Doug, but he sort of literally asked for it. I don't think that quite counts, here.) Almost *everyone*--? I'd say 'you've GOT to be kidding,' but you obviously aren't. Re-read MY posts, and count the ones where I just put forth my point of view in rebuttal. Count the ones where I say or even imply anything about the person making the comment. Sheesh." : Regardless of who Carl : really was (which only he could ever have known entirely), we all : have our own opinions about him. If you want to discredit everyone : who doesn't buy into the Carl as great teacher and pointer out of all : wrongs, then fine. Does that mean we're wrong? Hardly. "I identified with him in one notable regard: I hate to be misrepresented, too. And portraying me as you do above is NOT accurate in the least. You must have missed the posts where I said he was an s.o.b., and unreasonable, I assume. And if I present facts which contradict someone's opinion, and prove their opinion is baseless, who is wrong there? "I *couldn't* discredit anyone, if I didn't have the facts to do it *with*, you know. And what is your opinion of a person who clings to a discredited opinion?" : Frankly, who the hell cares what StM would have said about Wolf's : post, or any others for that matter? "I care. I care very very very much. What are you, blind or something? Sheesh!" : I'm sorry, but I'm just a little bit sick of this. "I'm sorry. Perhaps you should consider killfiling the thread, in that case. Why are you still reading a thread you're sick of, by the way?" : And, considering : your own strong stance on netiquette and the FAQ based on an earlier : conversation we had, I'm just a little bit surprised at you. "We were discussing the technical side of netiquette, though, weren't we? But ask around. I can be a real bitch if you push the right buttons." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.supernet.net!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!trellis.wwnet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news1.radix.net!news ~From: cbarnhart@radix.net (Chris Barnhart - (TechnoPup)) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:55:21 GMT Organization: Not in my house! ~Lines: 93 Message-ID: <50afos$ibe@news1.radix.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50a9fd$oc8@pentagon.io.com> ~Reply-To: cbarnhart@radix.net NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin4.annex5.radix.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158956 leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: >: Just because he was bright doesn't give him special license to treat >: people like crap on an almost (from my perspective) continuous basis. >: Anything StM might have had to say to me regarding science, I can >: read from a book without the insults, thank you very much. >"What did he flame you about, anyway? And who was right, you or him?" He never flamed me. I never spoke with him. I observed his interactions with others, found him lacking in the human qualities I admire, and avoided/ignored him. >: When I've flamed, albeit here or somewhere else, I've been called on >: the carpet for it, and perhaps rightfully so. Though I think that >: there is a time to express anger. >"Okay--so, you have your own personal standards as to what constitutes >'a time to express anger.' Why do you feel that StM should've also >been bound by *your* standards, rather than his own? What if StM >diagreed with *you* about when and where and how you expressed anger? >Would you have agreed to follow his standards after that?" Leslie, you digress as you always seem to. I am not claiming Carl should have done anything. I"m stating my own (as you pointed out) personal beliefs on Carl. You seem to have the need to speak for him now that he's gone. Neat. Go for it. I don't expect you to follow my standards nor did I expect it from him. But I do have just as much right to think Carl was a worthless asshole as you do to think he was some sort of net god, professor or friend. If you re-read your own posts to this thread, any time someone has started out with anything you disagree with, it has been: Ooh... Carl wouldn't have liked that. Carl would have flamed you for that. That's not what Carl would have said. My argument is in response to that. Why are Carl's feelings more important, dead or alive? >: My impressions of Carl's flaming tendencies were that he had a lot of >: inner rage he couldn't take out elsewhere, that he had a terminal >: Napoleonic complex, that he had little regards for how anyone felt, >: other than himself. >"He had a lot of regard for the feelings of others, as I know from >personal experience, and so do many others. But he did regard >truthfullness and accuracy more important than mere feelings, yes. >And, why is it okay for you to express your insulting opinion about >a 'Napoleonic complex,' but it wasn't okay for him to express his >opinion that someone was a moron?" You almost have a point there. If Carl had feelings for others, great, I'll take your word for it. If you think it is insulting to think that Carl had a Napoleonic complex, so be it. Maybe it is. I didn't say I was better than him, did I? I didn't say he was worse. I just said I didn't like him and I was sick of you jumping all over anyone who tried to offer feelings contradictory to yours by means of claiming to speak for the deceased. Ask yourself your own question. Why is it someone who didn't like Carl is jumped on by you? Must everyone answer to the great net-goddess Leslie? You have railed against many, defying logic and syntax on several occasions, just to speak for Carl. >"Asking him the question, 'why are you doing this?' always got a civil >explanation. I know. I have tons of email to prove it, not to mention >all the threads where he explained why he did what he did." Perhaps. But you have said before that you and he were like minded. Can you state for a fact that this is true of everyone who asked him why he did something? If you claim you can, aren't you going against those principles you claim that you and he shared? >: I wasn't going to say any of this, not out of respect for StM/Carl, >: but for respect for his friends. But it's apparent that everyone who >: knew him is aware of the controversy regarding his personality. >"I have rather heard it all before, yes." > >: *I* feel better for having said it, and I guess that's what memorial >: is all about. If there is an afterlife of any sort, I can wish for >: Carl that he finds there what he is looking for. Would he grant me >: the same respect? I honestly don't know. >"I don't know either." Nor do I care. >Leslie. __________________________________________________________________ Chris Barnhart - TechnoPup | "Verbosity leads to unclear, cbarnhart@radix.net | inarticulate things." http://www.radix.net/~cbarnhart | -Dan Quayle ________________________________|_________________________________ Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!netnews.com!news.dx.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!metro.atlanta.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!pravda.aa.msen.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!munnari.OZ.AU!metro!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!lily.newcastle.edu.au!c9210088 ~From: c9210088@lily.newcastle.edu.au (Claire Black) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 23:13:14 GMT Organization: The University of Newcastle ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <50agua$it2@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> <502kj1$gvi@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504987$hsj@medea.gp.usm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lily.newcastle.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158973 Jim M. Pierce (jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu) wrote: : Kitten: : >wonders if this has been a long week for everyone, or just her. : Its been a hellva week. Claire_Bear sighs and nods... "You know, it's been a really strange week for me, and this about Speaker, well it's only made it more strange - and more difficult". Hugs to kitten if she needs them.... -- Claire Black c9210088@cs.newcastle.edu.au GIT d-@ s: a- C++>$ ULS+>$ P L+(++) !E W+ N+ o? K--? w !O !M V-- PS? PE? Y? !PGP t+@ 5? X++ R tv b++++ DI-- D++ G e h-- r--@ x? Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!news.clark.net!noos.hooked.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!nntp.crl.com!usenet ~From: briancat@a.crl.com (-Lurch-) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 02:32:17 GMT Organization: none - anyone seen my other sock? ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <50asgu$hfn@nntp.crl.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Reply-To: briancat@a.crl.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a127018.dca1.as.crl.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158996 In alt.callahans, kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) burst forth, saying: Hey gang, This here thread is the best tribute to Carl going. It's got everything in it now. Somewhere in the middle ar a couple flame battles ala Carl's heyday. Way to go StM is still here - the world is upright once again... ************************************** *Brian Catlin * Pardon me, * *briancat@a.crl.com * My Typo * *HWG List Guide Manager * is showing * ************************************** Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!usenet ~From: c4winds@teleport.com (Clan of the Four Winds) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 05:05:10 GMT Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <50b5e9$im1@nadine.teleport.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <4vu4r8$3ai@babylon5.babcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx17-47.teleport.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159025 Damn. I'm almost supprised at how much his being gone hurts. I was only here for a little while, and my first encounter with him was an argument (this seems to have been the standard first encounter with StM.) and then my own personal s**t hit the fan, so I went away. I didn't really miss him while I was gone, because I assumed he was still driving the rest of you batty. And now, well, I wish I'd had more chances to butt head with him, he was fun. Eleri ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Clan of The Four Winds Good guys dont always wear white c4winds@teleport.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!dby-ct2-17.ix.netcom.com!user ~From: rolandx@ix.netcom.com (Roland X) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 05:14:47 GMT Organization: Me? Organized? ;^) ~Lines: 26 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> <5096i5$8tg@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dby-ct2-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 31 10:14:47 PM PDT 1996 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159033 In article <5096i5$8tg@pentagon.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: > On 31 Aug 1996 04:18:09 GMT in alt.callahans, > Roland X said: > : Please forgive me but...on second thought, _don't_ forgive me > : if you don't want to. StM _hated_ false remorse. > : BWAH-HA-HA-HA! > : Honestly, would this thread truly have been complete without > : _someone_ ripping someone else apart? > > Leslie peers at Roland curiously. "Do you really truly no kidding > think that what I said should be categorized as 'ripping someone > apart'--? If so, we are working with very different definitions > of the meaning of that phrase." > > > Leslie. I take no sides here. I'm just enjoying the show. Hopefully, one way or another, so is StM. ;^) And of course, I meant that figuratively. -- Truth beyond Paradox. Roland X, Freelance Immortal "Do not become your enemy to defeat your enemy." -epitaph, Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.radix.net!news ~From: cbarnhart@radix.net (Chris Barnhart - (TechnoPup)) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 06:00:38 GMT Organization: Not in my house! ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <50b8mb$okm@news1.radix.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> <507dvb$i82@xanadu.io.com> <50b46s$gcq@xanadu.io.com> ~Reply-To: cbarnhart@radix.net NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin13.annex5.radix.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159038 leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: >"This is utter bullshit. I'm doing it for me, and nobody else but me." >Leslie. I had to say that. He'd have called me a bad name if I didn't. Whether you believe it or not, I'm very glad you said that. Not the bullshit part, the doing it for yourself part. That's what matters. No matter how much we disagree or argue about StM, I understand you are in pain and I *do* feel for you. Friendship isn't easy to find, and I don't doubt that you found it with Carl. __________________________________________________________________ Chris Barnhart - TechnoPup | "Verbosity leads to unclear, cbarnhart@radix.net | inarticulate things." http://www.radix.net/~cbarnhart | -Dan Quayle ________________________________|_________________________________ Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!usenet ~From: randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 06:01:33 GMT Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 ~Lines: 24 Message-ID: <50b8rt$l5u@nadine.teleport.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: linda.teleport.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159045 "I got the news about Carl from my girlfriend Vannessa, who got it from a comp.os.vms friend just before she flew home. It was quite a shock. It's odd; this is how I thought Carl might end and still, one doesn't meet death every day. "'I looked death in the face today/I saw him in the mirror/And he simply smiled/He told me not to worry/He told me just to take my time.' "I was one of Carl's enemies here. My opinions of his harshness and his intellectual qualities, I think, are well known here, and I wan't rehash them at this time. But let me add that he felt his harshness was in the service of truth, which I think was his great goal and that he pursued his goal with extraordinary perseverence. "He was, when not being harsh, funny and kind. And he was a teacher: of technical specifics, of medicine, and, here in alt.callahans, of critical thinking. "To Carl Lydick!" *CRASH* -- Randolph Fritz, who is only poking his nose in and is now returning to abend randolph@teleport.com Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail ~From: pdeangu@aol.com (Pdeangu) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 12:15:48 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) ~Lines: 13 ~Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <50ccrk$r1h@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ~References: <32245BC1.14AC@interpath.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159084 I read the news about "Speaker to Minerals" just before leaving town for a short trip. As a relative newcomer to Callahan's I wandered into some of his threads. The verbal pryotechnics were stunning; what a fighter! At first I tried to contribute a fact here and there that I was sure of, but was ignored for my trouble. I decided that StM was best watched from a safe distance. Suddenly he stopped posting; the silence was even more stunning. It will be a quieter, saner Callahan's without StM, but a less colorful one. I too place my glass on the topmost log for him. He now knows, or knew, something we the living can only wonder about. -- Paul de Anguera Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!panix!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 15:19:15 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 54 Message-ID: <50cr43$fia@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <501m5l$f0h@medea.gp.usm.edu> <50999v$r1i@izzy4.izzy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159119 [] "How deep?" [] [] Before DJ can breathe to ask what he means, Tom goes on. "I I think I do know... [] "But you." Tom's gaze, brighter for the tears, fixes on DJ. [] "You *walk to the fucking moon* for him. Do you know how deeply that [] touched me? Because that's not one-thousandth as deeply as he must [] have touched you." yeah, i had to do it for him. like a protector, in niven's universe, i sometimes have no choice... I could have gone into excruciating detail, but I figured my pain during that walk was evident without lots of gritty detail. [dj pauses to wipe the tears from his eyes.] when he posted awhile back about his brother's suicide, i knew or felt i knew how he conducted his life and his outlook on life. [] Tom reaches out for his guitar. "Here's to Speaker, a persona [] I did not like, and to Carl, a man I did not know, who touched and []changed many in his determined attempt to rid the universe's brains [] of shit." [chuckle] 'rid the univere's brains of shit' i like it, thanks. [] He pauses, unsure for a moment of what to sing. Then that huge, [] gap-toothed grin breaks out, and DJ hears the strains of an old [] Donovan tune that, for reasons which quickly become evident, never [] got much airplay. [] [] "Ohhh, the Intergalactic Laxative [] Will get you from here to there, [] Relieve you, and, believe me, [] Without a worry or care. [] If shitting is your problem [] When you're out there in the stars, [] Oh, the Intergalactic Laxative [] Will get you from here to Mars...." thanks. I'll do my best to get my forgetful mind to remember this song. 'California Dreamin'' by the Mamas and the Papas is playing on the radio as I type this. DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 15:44:21 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 45 Message-ID: <50csj5$r6h@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50a9fd$oc8@pentagon.io.com> <50afos$ibe@news1.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159107 TechnoPup: [] He never flamed me. I never spoke with him. I observed his [] interactions with others, found him lacking in the human qualities Maybe your observing skills need improving... >Leslie, you digress as you always seem to. I am not claiming Carl no, she made a point, that _you_ missed. [] right to think Carl was a worthless asshole as you do to think he was [] some sort of net god, professor or friend. If you re-read your own Even _i_ don't think he was a god, net or otherwise. [] posts to this thread, any time someone has started out with anything [] you disagree with, it has been: Ooh... Carl wouldn't have liked that. [] Carl would have flamed you for that. That's not what Carl would have [] said. My argument is in response to that. Why are Carl's feelings [] more important, dead or alive? Carl would have. If you knew anything about, had _observed_ anything about him, you would comprehend that Leslie is stating the truth. [] You almost have a point there. If Carl had feelings for others, [] great, I'll take your word for it. If you think it is insulting to [] think that Carl had a Napoleonic complex, so be it. Maybe it is. I it is insulting because its a _totally_ bogus claim. [] Ask yourself your own question. Why is it someone who didn't like [] Carl is jumped on by you? Must everyone answer to the great [] net-goddess Leslie? You have railed against many, defying logic and [] syntax on several occasions, just to speak for Carl. bullshit. But then, you and i probably define the word pattern 'net-goddess' differently. DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 16:01:23 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 11 Message-ID: <50cbqt$8ss@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50b8rt$l5u@nadine.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159085 randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) wrote: >"'I looked death in the face today/I saw him in the mirror/And he simply >smiled/He told me not to worry/He told me just to take my time.' A very large figure near the end of the bar looks up from his conversation at this and adds his own favorite on this subject, "Death tugs at my ear and says: 'Live, I am coming.'" --Berek "nothing lasts forever...this is both good and bad" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!thorn.cc.usm.edu!medea.gp.usm.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 16:50:40 GMT Organization: University of Southern Mississippi ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <50cet0$u1e@thorn.cc.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> <504pbs$gll@samba.rahul.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159092 Kristin A. Ruhle wrote: [] "Hmm. If he were here now, he'd probably find a way to turn my current [] .sig against me...." [] "You can stop rehearsing, Pinky. No one is hiring village idiots anymore." He would likely think it was funny, as do I. DJ. -- Jim jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: The Breeders 'Cannonball' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!thorn.cc.usm.edu!medea.gp.usm.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 17:39:25 GMT Organization: University of Southern Mississippi ~Lines: 56 Message-ID: <50chod$u1e@thorn.cc.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> <50baus$jps@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159095 Leslie wrote: [] "Might you not get a *little* bit touchy--?" [] [] [] Leslie. I considered going with 'grief-stricken' as an excuse, but "Hai Leslie-San, hai !" DJ. I would have given him his head back on a platter, but you did a nice job of it... LW, you may be considered intelligent by some, but to fabricate a theory up out of whole-cloth, says far more about you than Carl, Leslie, me, or anyone else. I am somewhat grieve-striken ,but I would have done my damndest to do it with needle-like precision. Not that I am all that capable of verbal precision. i.e shreding your post. Speaker coughing up blood was from two years ago. He had done a blood sugar test on himself, he realized it was way off, I forget in which direction. He got himself to the hospital. He started coughing up blood in the receiving area of the ER. The twits working there misdiagnosed him. He told them what the real problem was. They, being picked professionals, did their best to ignore the statements of the non-professional. He finally got someone with a modicum of brain cells between their ears to _LISTEN_ to him. Then he passed out, and survived. From what he said, he had to fight to remain concious. I don't see how he managed it, but he did. Like /*, I too have a small thing to confess. Several of you may remember that a couple of years ago Speaker posted that he was thinking about leaving here, and that a certain someone would have to convince him to stay. If I remember correctly, Kitten mentioned that she had emailed him about it, but Speaker said words to the effect that 'he has to tell me, sorry for not mentioning that.' Again, I didn't get it. Speaker posted again about time running out or something similar. Then the .000000001 watt light went off over my head. I got a clue. I emailed Speaker and asked him to come back here. And he did. Not long after that, there were a number of vicious attacks against him. I sent email apologizing to him for asking him back. He told me not to worry abvout it. At the time I was very chagrined. But if he hadn't come back, we wouldn't have seen that post of his about skiing on the side of a volcano using the bodies of slugs to escape. Dreamy Jim, who sometimes feels much older than he actually is... -- Jim Book: C. J. Cherryh 'Pride of Chanur' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!fnord.dfw.net!news.pcnet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news.usit.net!news ~From: jmiles@usit.net (Janet D. Miles) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p Speaker ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 18:38:10 GMT Organization: yeah right ~Lines: 55 Message-ID: <3229d6c2.14380408@news.usit.net> ~References: <3225F3ED.F7D@ftn.net> ~Reply-To: jmiles@usit.net NNTP-Posting-Host: bway-slip11.dynamic.usit.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/16.227 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159106 On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:47:57 -0400, in alt.callahans Ch'kai wrote: >The world as a whole is large and anonymous, masses of strangers. >Individuals - and Carl was certainly that - come and go, one by one. And >personally, I think it would be worse if no-one even noticed their >passing. Like Eleanor Rigby. Yes! That's it exactly; Ch'kai; I just couldn't think how to say it. [Upon reflection: this is one of several posts to which I have responded, "Yes! That's it exactly!"] For good or for ill, Carl Lydick, Speaker-to-Minerals, *will* be remembered. I'm fairly certain StM did not believe in Diety/ies or an afterlife. Let our memories of the man -- all of our memories, the good and the bad, memories of Carl who was soft-spoken and helpful equally with memories of Speaker who was frequently loud and abrasive -- let those memories be his afterlife. So long as we remember him, his spirit lives on ... "...keeping things neat and clean right here on Usenet newsgroups, because Carl Lydick was a straight-speaking man, Lord, Lord, Carl Lydick was a plain-speaking man." Dear gods. I just filked the Limelighters' song "Max Goolis" (which was itself a parody of "John Henry") as a memorial to the man. Well. I guess he made an impression on me, too. So, then, my formal toast: Carl, I've learned more about you in the last few days than in the preceding two years. I"m sorry about that; sorry because I was so terrified of running afoul of your public persona that I never wanted to get to know you personally, and now I find that I might well have liked you. I think I understand, primarily from Leslie's posts, why you chose to post the way you did. I respect your intelligence, factual knowledge, and dedication to Truth as you saw it; I regret your choice of methods. Still, it was your choice; you were intelligent enough and, I believe, self-aware enough, to have made that choice deliberately and with due regard for the consequences. I hope, wherever you are (if you are anywhere), that you find peace and continued opportunities to learn. And I hope that we who are left find an opportunity to learn from your life. == Posted by Janet Miles , or if you prefer anonymous email Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!warwick!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!news ~From: muon@sandy.ast.cam.ac.uk (T.C. Muon) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 01 Sep 1996 17:47:01 +0100 Organization: IoA, Cambridge ~Lines: 65 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sandy.ast.cam.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159090 panetta@finch.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (The Yendi) writes: > In article <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, > barbara trumpinski wrote: > >kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called > >speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl > >was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone > >out there can help, please do." > The Yendi slumps in. "Sorry, All. I just got back from the Pasadena > Police Station, Records Section. They confirmed that Carl Lydick was > found dead in his apartment on Friday. Probable cause of death > was listed as 'illness'. > "I also called his bar. The manager there was also his landlord. > After not hearing from him for a week or so, the landlord entered > Carl's apartment and found him." > >she raises her glass in a silent toast. > "Mike, I know I'm allergic to NutraSweet, but in honor of Speaker, > I'd like a Dark Bacardi and Diet Coke." The door opens and a stranger walks in. He's of medium height, heavy build. He wears a black wool tunic, and flat grey leather shoes laced over black trousers, a charcoal cloak, clasped with a silver badge depicting a grinning dolphin. There's a leather thong with an inverted silver "T" around his neck. As he steps in he nods to Mike and puts down a black round shield embossed with an eight prong design, and a plain conical helmet with black and gray stripes, on the front are green slit eyes that seem to scan the room. Off his belt hangs a black headed battleaxe with a green shaft, the head looks as if it has passed through a great fire, the shaft has the legend "Parson's cleaver" engraved on it. Faint traces of rust and blue stain the top of the shaft. He walks to the bar and orders a baccardi and diet coke. His arms are bare but for a pair of silver bracelets, and show faint scarring as if repeatedly burnt. He walks to the chalk line and raises the glass to eye level. "To Carl. In 8 years our paths on this web crossed repeatedly and you never once called me a "moron", although I'm sure I deserved it on occasion." He leans forward and places drained glass on the log, ignoring the flames. He turns around, although he'd looked in he never thought he'd come here. Some look familiar from another place, even another world. He walks back to the bar and orders a Stella. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 00:19:34 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: <50dqp6$h7k@bermuda.io.com> ~References: <32245BC1.14AC@interpath.com> <50ccrk$r1h@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bermuda.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159112 On 1 Sep 1996 12:15:48 -0400 in alt.callahans, Pdeangu said: : I read the news about "Speaker to Minerals" just before leaving town for a : short trip. As a relative newcomer to Callahan's I wandered into some of : his threads. The verbal pryotechnics were stunning; what a fighter! At : first I tried to contribute a fact here and there that I was sure of, but : was ignored for my trouble. "Paul..." Leslie says softly. "The fact that he ignored you was a *good* sign. He was not into 'me too' posts, at all; he wouldn't have followed up to you just to say 'I agree,' or something. So if he ignored you, you can safely assume one of two things: he didn't know enough about the subject to make an informed comment, or, you didn't say anything he thought was inaccurate." Leslie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 03:08:24 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: <50e4lo$903@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> <50baus$jps@xanadu.io.com> <50d7sl$199@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159134 On 1 Sep 1996 23:57:09 GMT in alt.callahans, Rachel Meredith Kadel said: [Thanks for the info, Rachel.] : >"Well, sure, low blood sugar can make anyone cranky. That's why he : >specifically gave kitten a 2X4: to whack some sense into him, if : >she caught him not keeping an eye on it." : : Yeah. But he can't possibly have been low the entire time he was on : the net. "Ya, that was sort of my point. And that was one thing I never did figure out how to figure out...how to tell the difference between him flaming out of crankiness related to blood sugar, and him flaming out of reasoned deliberation." Leslie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 04:24:19 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 132 Message-ID: <50e943$bcj@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50a9fd$oc8@pentagon.io.com> <50afos$ibe@news1.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159087 On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:55:21 GMT in alt.callahans, Chris Barnhart - (TechnoPup) said: : >: When I've flamed, albeit here or somewhere else, I've been called on : >: the carpet for it, and perhaps rightfully so. Though I think that : >: there is a time to express anger. : : >"Okay--so, you have your own personal standards as to what constitutes : >'a time to express anger.' Why do you feel that StM should've also : >been bound by *your* standards, rather than his own? What if StM : >diagreed with *you* about when and where and how you expressed anger? : >Would you have agreed to follow his standards after that?" : : Leslie, you digress as you always seem to. "Oh, I don't know. Considering the latter part of your post, it seems quite a relevant tangent, to me." : I am not claiming Carl : should have done anything. I"m stating my own (as you pointed out) : personal beliefs on Carl. "But, basically, you didn't think he was worth much, because he flamed people. Because he didn't care about the feelings of others when he flamed (which he didn't). You feel he should have cared more about the feelings of others. "And I was pointing out that you and he just had different criteria for what constituted 'a time to express anger.' The difference between you is one of degree, not of substance." [...] : If you re-read your own : posts to this thread, any time someone has started out with anything : you disagree with, it has been: Ooh... Carl wouldn't have liked that. : Carl would have flamed you for that. That's not what Carl would have : said. My argument is in response to that. Why are Carl's feelings : more important, dead or alive? "Well, since the people in question were talking about Carl, it did seem very relevant to me that Carl's point of view ought to be represented, also. I'm not sure where you get the 'more important' bit, exactly, though. Certainly, he ought to be considered the expert on himself, no? And, if people are going to be discussing him, they ought to be aware of what *he* thought, especially if they've misunder- stood him on some point, or are simply unware of what he thought. Speaking for myself, I know I really dislike it when I find out I've misunderstood someone, and appreciate having it straightened out." : >"He had a lot of regard for the feelings of others, as I know from : >personal experience, and so do many others. But he did regard : >truthfullness and accuracy more important than mere feelings, yes. : >And, why is it okay for you to express your insulting opinion about : >a 'Napoleonic complex,' but it wasn't okay for him to express his : >opinion that someone was a moron?" : : You almost have a point there. If Carl had feelings for others, : great, I'll take your word for it. If you think it is insulting to : think that Carl had a Napoleonic complex, so be it. Maybe it is. "Um, I've never heard it used in a *complimentary* fashion. Have you?" : I didn't say I was better than him, did I? I didn't say he was worse. : I just said I didn't like him and I was sick of you jumping all over : anyone who tried to offer feelings contradictory to yours by means of : claiming to speak for the deceased. "I still think you're over-reacting to what I've been saying. I haven't contradicted people's *feelings* (I don't think)--I have contradicted things which I know, or believe, to be wrong, though. And 'jumping all over' implies to my mind the idea of 'attacking.' I have been *responding* to people, yes, but not *everyone*, not even to everyone who voiced a less than complimentary opinion of StM." : Ask yourself your own question. Why is it someone who didn't like : Carl is jumped on by you? Must everyone answer to the great : net-goddess Leslie? You have railed against many, defying logic and : syntax on several occasions, just to speak for Carl. "This is insulting, exaggerating, and distorting, not to mention a couple of outright lies. Don't you care about my feelings, at all? "I have NOT 'jumped on' EVERYONE who didn't like Carl. I have jumped on INACCURACIES in the things some have said, though. Hell, I corrected a person who LIKED Carl (the one who said 'he was always right about the facts'). I have NOT 'railed against many,' I outright flamed ONE person, and sniped at another. This is 'many'? And if you're going to accuse me of 'defying logic' and 'syntax' on several occasions, I'm going to ask you to provide examples to back up that accusation, to allow me to defend myself. How can I defend myself against such a vague assertation? I'm reduced to saying 'did not!' "But, actually, I'm not especially surprised to see you flaming me. More than one person has transferred their anger at StM to me, because I speak up for his point of view. But try to keep us separate in your mind, if you can. Just because I *present* his point of view doesn't necessarily mean I agree with it, or condone or excuse it. I am *explaining* him, most of all. I will admit to forgiving him, however." : >"Asking him the question, 'why are you doing this?' always got a civil : >explanation. I know. I have tons of email to prove it, not to mention : >all the threads where he explained why he did what he did." : : Perhaps. But you have said before that you and he were like minded. : Can you state for a fact that this is true of everyone who asked him : why he did something? If you claim you can, aren't you going against : those principles you claim that you and he shared? "It's true of everyone who asked him politely and sincerely and in good faith, so far as I know." : >: *I* feel better for having said it, and I guess that's what memorial : >: is all about. If there is an afterlife of any sort, I can wish for : >: Carl that he finds there what he is looking for. Would he grant me : >: the same respect? I honestly don't know. : : >"I don't know either." : : Nor do I care. "Bullshit, you don't care," Leslie says softly. "If you didn't care, you wouldn't be so angry at the thought that he wouldn't grant that respect. Unless you can honestly say you are indifferent to the question entirely..." Leslie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.csd.net!ares.csd.net!mark ~From: mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 07:49:34 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company ~Lines: 21 Message-ID: <50e3ie$se5@apollo.csd.net> ~References: <32245BC1.14AC@interpath.com> <50ccrk$r1h@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <50dqp6$h7k@bermuda.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ares.csd.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159126 leslie@io.com (Leslie) writes: >On 1 Sep 1996 12:15:48 -0400 in alt.callahans, >Pdeangu said: [Snip...] >: was ignored for my trouble. >"Paul..." Leslie says softly. "The fact that he ignored you was a *good* >sign. He was not into 'me too' posts, at all; he wouldn't have followed >up to you just to say 'I agree,' or something. So if he ignored you, you [Snip...] Agreed. Carl didn't waste bandwidth asking people standing beside him, if they really intended to stand beside him. Mark Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.sojourn.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.ptd.net!news ~From: "Kevin D. Knerr, Sr." ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 12:22:36 -0400 Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc. ~Lines: 86 Message-ID: <322B09CB.66E7@prolog.net> ~References: <32263D91.457F@prolog.net> <50a63p$mog@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs3-07.haz.ptd.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b7Gold (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159130 Leslie wrote: > On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:02:09 -0400 in alt.callahans, > Kevin D. Knerr, Sr. said: > : Carl held rigid definitions of truth, freedom, and choice. (Which > : should explain to prior posters why he described himself as a > : "non-insulin dependent diabetic who uses insulin". As far as he was > : concerned, diabetes did not force him to use insulin--he chose to use > : insulin to treat his diabetic condition.) > > "No; see Brandon's post, if you can, where he explains the difference > in the types of diabetes. (IDDM means the body produces no insulin; > NIDDM means it produces insulin in some amounts, but the body isn't > able to use it properly.)" Another small smile. "He probably would > have castigated you for talking about diabetes when you obviously > don't know much about it. Get your facts straight *first*, he'd say." Gee, as I recall, when we were speaking about the issues of "force", you yourself used the example of him "choosing" to use insulin. I was not (and am not) totally ignorant of the different types of diabetes and their differing aspects and treatments. (But neither am I a medical specialist.) For emphasis--diabetes runs in my family and I will probably develop it in a few years, as did my father and grandfather: I have a need to know about it. My point was that the medical definition of "insulin-dependant" or "non-insulin-dependant" was irrelevant to StM. It was always "his choice" to use insulin. And if I'm wrong on that, then I suspect that we have actually found an instance in which StM himself would admit that he was "forced" to do something. > : Carl never really cared what people thought of him > : personally--objective truth was that much more important to him. > : Carl believed that everyone else should hold the same commitment to > : objective truth. Given the number of comments I've read, I suspect he > : never realized that his abrasive and abusive language was detracting > : from his ability to share his knowledge and insights with others. Or he > : just plain didn't care. > > "He figured two things: one, if people didn't listen to him when he > corrected them politely, which he generally did to begin with, then > they probably weren't going to listen in any case, so *then* he abandoned > teaching in favor of providing a hostile environment for whatever the > subject was. And, two, he really didn't understand how people could > be more concerned over style rather than substance. He figured that was > their problem, not his." I'm not surprised to hear you say that about him. The argument of form vs. substance has been going on for thousands of years. In point of fact, I am more like Carl in that I prefer substance over form. However, in order to be effective, I've found that sometimes you need to provide an appealing form for the substance to be accepted. I hate and despise that fact that it's often so, but I've learned to accept that it IS so. > : Carl, despite his rigorous self-discipline, sometimes failed to > : achieve his own high standards in his posts. He would make assumptions > : about their starting principles. He held stereotypes and preconceived > : notions about others' motives and ideas. > : But, IMHO, Carl's tragic flaw was his refusal to acknowledge that > : others might succumb to weakness and pain. Because he stood valiantly > : against his own infirmity and pain, he could not see why others might > : stumble. > > "He understood about weaknesses, but he absolutely refused to allow > anyone to get away with making excuses for themselves. He rather > demanded that they take responsibility for themselves, and not shift > the blame elsewhere. And I found him to be upfront and honest about > his own flaws and foibles." There's a fine line between making excuses and stating causes. Often, the attitude of the observer determines how the same statement is perceived. Sometimes a person who says "I had a bad day" really means "I behaved poorly because I had a bad day". In the first place, it's much harder to know the context in our virtual communications. Secondly, most humans tend to shorten and abbreviate anyway, IMHO. (for example) Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just think about it: Windows 95 is Commodore Amiga '84--almost, but not quite. "Friends don't let friends do Windows. Be a designated Amigan." A public service message from Ld. Barthel. kknerrsr@prolog.net Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.supernet.net!news.magicnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-f.computek.net!fnord.dfw.net!news.pcnet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!chatter!Bob_Gilbert ~From: Bob_Gilbert@chatter.com (Bob Gilbert) ~Reply-To: Bob_Gilbert@chatter.com ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Distribution: world ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 02 Sep 1996 08:46:32 GMT Message-ID: <577302493.47804709@chatter.com> Organization: The ChatterBox BBS , Justin Texas ~Lines: 62 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159133 uribe@ibm.net,Internet writes: Soprano smiles through her tears. "Sorry, I never saw Carl scowling. Despite (or perhaps because of?) his Kzinti persona here, Carl in person was never anything but polite and soft-spoken in my presence." Soprano -- I never knew the Carl you knew, I only knew the one who posted here and him I most definitely did not like. Not even a little bit. I have given this post due consideration for the time we have known StM to be dead and I still hesitate to send it. I hesitate because I don't want anyone here to hate me for the way I feel about Speaker. For those who remember, I came to this list approximately 18 months ago and had made only a couple of posts of introduction, when my wife who I had been previously seperated from, told me she wanted a divorce. In a state of tears I posted a toast to her here, titled 'Toast to one whom I love.' Those of you who sent me private e-mail and those of you who posted messages to me here made a vast difference in my emotional state. Only those who have faced losing a soul mate can understand how much help those messages were to me. I have saved each and every one and some of the most thoughtful, helpful, giving messages were from those of you who are most affected by Speaker's death. Yet still, Speaker himself did not send any message to me and in fact very soon after my post took several in this place to task for, if I remember correctly, expressing sympathy which Carl felt could not be sincere, to someone else who had posted a message much like the one I posted. My emotional state at the time was such that I felt unable to become involved in one of Carl's flamewars. As time passed, while I stopped posting I continued to lurk in Callahan's reading everything posted. I became more and more disenchanted with Speaker's posts and eventually stopped lurking. I simply did not have the strength to risk drawing the point of Speaker's flames by posting and felt anger toward him because his flames kept me from posting at a time when I very much needed to. I remember and I think many of you will also, the thread with someone who maintained Speaker was responsible for driving many from Callahan's. I am sure he did and I think now many will return. For well over a year I have opened Callahan's every couple of weeks, looked and if I saw posts from Speaker, opened a couple, spotted the term, shit for brains, closed them and left Callahan's for a few more weeks only to repeat. I know Speaker meant much to many many of you and I grieve for you. As Doone said, (paraphase) 'the death of anyone diminishes me', so it is with Speaker. His death diminishes me and all of you. Will I miss him? No, I won't. Am I glad he no longer posts to alt. Callahan's? Yes I am glad his posts are no longer here. I would however, have much rather he just stopped posting as opposed to dying. Still yet, I know many of you loved him and miss him and I offer all of you the hug you gave me in my time of trouble. I hope you will accept it in the spirit it is given and at the same time forgive me for my inability to like Speaker. I didn't like him and at the same time, while I have never participated to any degree, I love this place and should have been an active member many months ago. I did not for the simple reason I knew the possibility of posting anything without drawing Speaker's flames was very remote and I did not feel able to defend against him. Staffwalker, bob_gilbert@chatter.com Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!newsfeeder.gi.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 15:07:12 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50fepg$3th@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507dvb$i82@xanadu.io.com> <50b46s$gcq@xanadu.io.com> <50b8mb$okm@news1.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159136 On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 06:00:38 GMT in alt.callahans, Chris Barnhart - (TechnoPup) said: : leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: : >"This is utter bullshit. I'm doing it for me, and nobody else but me." : : >Leslie. I had to say that. He'd have called me a bad name if I didn't. : : Whether you believe it or not, I'm very glad you said that. Not the : bullshit part, the doing it for yourself part. That's what matters. The important part is being aware of what you're doing, and why. And not making excuses. I'd be insulting his memory if I made excuses for something I did. : No matter how much we disagree or argue about StM, I understand you : are in pain and I *do* feel for you. Friendship isn't easy to find, : and I don't doubt that you found it with Carl. Thank you. It's not so much pain as it is sadness, and a feeling of emptiness in the space he used to fill. Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail ~From: snarf@access4.digex.net (Dreamweaver) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 16:54:01 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA ~Lines: 46 Message-ID: <50fhh9$jm8@access4.digex.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvstr$28t@boris.eden.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159125 Starknight wrote: >Set me up a double, Mike... It's a wake! Nothing shakes the rafters as hard as something like this. This is the third wake this year for me and... Oh fuck it. I was checking out the Place for the first time in a long time, and of course half the articles have to do with Speaker, but this time r.i.p was next to his name. Okay. Okay. Okay. Um... Okay, so I go ahead and save as many of the articles as I can and then go read them and cry and laugh and smile and try to figure out what I want to do, if anything. So here goes. Bacardi and Diet Coke in hand (blech). Dreamweaver brings out a little box of straw men he's collected over the past 4 years. All the times I re-thought an argument and found the flaw in it before Speaker could. All the times I decided the discussion was too complicated for me and I really didn't want to spend/waste the time. All the moments I agreed with him but never told him. This goes into the fire, all the flames that could have been but never were. Even quiet as a stone, Speaker-to-Minerals still somehow manages to make this a noisy place. :) There's also the stub of a red candle, for all the times I got to see the caring and compassionate side. Those moments when what needed to be said actually got said. That gets thrown in, too. In all these things I remember Carl Lydick, Speaker-to-Minerals. I will not forget you. -- ... elsewhere, laughing at the wind... Sean Eustis The Dreamweaver "Now my charms are all o'erthrown, and what strength I have's mine own..." Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: The Last Speaker Thread (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker) ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 21:01:46 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 78 Message-ID: <502tma$30c@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 27 Aug 1996 14:13:43 GMT in alt.callahans, Claudia Mastroianni said: : : "To a loyal friend, a stubborn arguer, an ass, a scientist; someone : people blamed when they left alt.callahans, someone people laughed : to see 'still here' when they came back. I never liked his tactics, : but I came to respect his goals. To Carl Lydick, Speaker to Minerals." "I read everything he wrote, whenever the subject of his tactics came up, and discussed it in email with him, too. And, given his priorities in life (which only occasionally intersected with the priorities of most other folks), I could never find any flaws in his chain of logic which lead him to adopt and use the tactics he did. (Well, I did spot one weak link--but I never got the chance to bring it up...) "While many people did, I think, think of him as 'just a flamer,' and stopped paying attention to him, many others here have repeated one common phrase--'he taught me something' or 'I learned something because of him.' How many of us can say we had the same impact on so many others? *That*, my fellow Patrons, is his *real* legacy. "He wasn't a patient teacher, not with adults whom he expected to know better, but a teacher he was, at heart. He truly believed in the adage 'give a man a fish, and you've fed him for a day...teach a man to fish, and you've fed him for a lifetime.' It was not his way to 'hand out answers' or to spoon-feed logic and explanations to people. Instead, his arguments were designed to get people to *think things through* for *themselves*, knowing as he did that that was the *best* way for people to truly *understand* something. He didn't want people who could parrot back 'correct' answers. He wanted them to *know* WHY and how and where and when it was correct. "He taught me about logic. Without him, I doubt I'd have become aware of just how seldom I *do* think before opening my mouth. He taught me the importance of questioning one's basic assumptions. He taught me to be on guard against generalizing from my own experiences and prejudices. He taught me that it was really okay for me to have my own opinions, and that I had every right to express them if I chose to. "He taught me the meaning of the word 'antinomy,' too, in a way Spider Robinson couldn't. It describes a condition where one is torn between equally strong, equally necessary--and totally opposing-- emotions. When someone I cared very much about said they were leaving a.c. because of StM, it ripped my heart in two. How could I chose? According to my own personal ethics, I couldn't wish StM gone, I couldn't even be angry at him. "What I did wish...I don't know what I wished. I wished there could have been a way for StM to 'fit into' the Place, just as he was. I wished he didn't have so damn MANY pet peeves in life. I wished people had understood him better. I wished he could have had just a *little* more patience. I wished people had more patience with him... "But I never would have changed a thing about the way he shot from the hip, always saying exactly what he thought. He despised 'pussyfooting around,' and the hypocrisy of couching insults in polite rather than blunt language. I trusted him in a way I don't think I ever have, or ever could, trust someone more 'diplomatic' or 'tactful.' But that could be because he came in so strongly on 'my wavelength.' For all the million and one things I didn't know about him, I felt I *knew* him. He felt more like a brother to me than my own RL brother does..." : Claudia offers hugs to any who want them. "If I'm included in that offer, I'll take one. And thank you." Leslie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: The Last Speaker Thread (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 02:43:41 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50304t$o7i@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <502tma$30c@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu claudia: >: "To a loyal friend, a stubborn arguer, an ass, a scientist; someone >: people blamed when they left alt.callahans, someone people laughed >: to see 'still here' when they came back. I never liked his tactics, >: but I came to respect his goals. To Carl Lydick, Speaker to Minerals." leslie: >"I read everything he wrote, whenever the subject of his tactics >came up, and discussed it in email with him, too. And, given his >priorities in life (which only occasionally intersected with the >priorities of most other folks), I could never find any flaws in his >chain of logic which lead him to adopt and use the tactics he did. >(Well, I did spot one weak link--but I never got the chance to bring >it up...) >"While many people did, I think, think of him as 'just a flamer,' >and stopped paying attention to him, many others here have repeated >one common phrase--'he taught me something' or 'I learned something >because of him.' How many of us can say we had the same impact on so >many others? *That*, my fellow Patrons, is his *real* legacy. [you all read it, i don't need to repeat it] "someone suggested i might be the one to write his obituary...but this is his epitaph....thank you leslie." -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!netnews.com!udel-eecis!delmarva.com!imci4!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!world!news.bu.edu!ACS.BU.EDU!mjmh ~From: mjmh@bu.edu (Michael Holmes) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: The Last Speaker Thread (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 19:01:56 GMT Organization: Boston University ~Lines: 142 Message-ID: <504pf5$aam@news.bu.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <502tma$30c@xanadu.io.com> <50304t$o7i@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Mike Holmes, leaving /* aside for the moment, steps back into Callahan's bar. His face is rather blank. Serious. Subdued. "I don't really know what I want to say. I don't know that I'm one of the right people to 'eulogize' Carl. I know that I knew him better than many others here, but I also know that I didn't know him the _best_ out of everyone here. "And even after almost four years of electronic conversations, I can't say that I knew him as well as I would have liked." Mike looks into the fireplace, staring at the dancing flames, collecting his thoughts. "There was a tendency, in some folx, to look at him in 'larger- than-life' terms while he was alive, and perhaps there's even more an urge to do so in reflection on his passing. I don't know that I want to do that, though. I want to consider him in as human terms as I can. And... in as realistic a way as possible." "His net.persona, Speaker-to-Minerals, had faults. He often had reasons and justifications for some of his more controversial behaviors, but that doesn't mean that he *was* always right about what he did and how he did it." "How these faults and controversial behaviors reflected the personality of Carl Lydick, the man, is not something I can comment on with any certainty... but based on what others have said, and through my own private e-mail with him, I _believe_ that there were some definite differences between who he was in reality, and who he was on-line. At least when it came to impatience and abruptness." "But I would like to relate a part of the more human side of him... of Carl, as he presented himself to us *through* the persona of Speaker-to-Minerals. As *I* knew him." "He had a sense of humor. He punned, frequently and often esoterically. He had a great mastery of trivia. He liked musicals. He cared about people, particularly if he feared they were not looking at an adverse situation realistically. He hated the 'victimy' mentality." "He also... used to speak more openly about his life. Family sorrows and pain. Dealing with diabetes. Unrequited love." "That changed, over the years, and I'm not sure why. But he grew more private about his own life." Mike sits, silent again, for several minutes. "I want to tell a story about a real interaction between me and Carl... something that I've always held onto as giving insight into who he was... or at least, who I think he was." "There was a time in this newsgroup when I took a public stand, during one of those common threads discussing Speaker's style of presentation, and how appropriate it was. This evolved into an ongoing thread in public, and into some group email which included both myself and Speaker, and into some private email, as well." "It was quite a brou-ha-ha." "At one point, Carl, who was obviously taking the brunt of this, took the time out to e-mail me a rather lengthy note. It discussed some of the broader issues involved -- I'm sure many of you know them, they have to do with freedom of speech, personalities, honesty, and particularly whether an insult said nicely is any better than an insult said bluntly." "But beyond the issues involved in the thread, Carl pointed out that the stance *I* had taken was bound to be unpopular with some people, and that I would take some heat for it. He said that he was sorry that I would have to take that heat, and sorry that it was in part a result of his actions. And he asked me to let him know if there was anything he could do to help me deal with any problems that might result." "It was a very human moment, and it meant a great deal to me. He knew the points in which I disagreed with him, but that didn't matter. He expressed concern, and expressed it well. And I appreciated that." "And during times in which his behavior might lead me to forget his human side, all I needed to do was remember that message." "That was far from the only time he expressed something like that, but, for some reason, it was the one that always stood out in my mind. Nothing earth-shattering, nothing larger-than-life, just a very ordinary human moment. But that's what made it so important, to me." Mike sighs again, feeling a little lost, a little too... tired. "There's one more thing I feel compelled to mention. Many people are hearing of the full extent of his health problems for the first time. There is a very... human... impulse to excuse or explain some of his more aggressive posts as due to his illness, or to the emotional stress of dealing with illness." "Please don't do that. He never used his illness as an excuse, and in fact became quite angry if people tried to forgive him or excuse him based on stress from his diabetes or other medical complications. He took full responsibility for his words and actions, though not always in ways others might wish him to, and he did not want his behavior attributed to diminished capacity or emotional stress." "I think if we truly want to honor his memory in a way he would approve of, we should keep this in mind." Mike ponders again for several moments, in silence. He takes up a glass of rum and coke, though he passes on the diet coke... and makes a toast. A toast he hopes is in keeping with both his own beliefs, and with Carl's, as best as he can tell. He raises his glass and speaks slowly and clearly. "To Carl... you did make a difference. You mattered. You had an effect." Downing the drink, Mike underhands it into the fireplace. And stares into the fire. "I'm going to miss you, Carl. Warts and all." -- Mike Holmes Boston University -- No man is an Island, entire of it self; every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. -- John Donne ( 1571? - 1631 ), Meditation XVII Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: The Last Speaker Thread (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker) ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 13:32:38 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <50cks6$ija@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502tma$30c@xanadu.io.com> <50304t$o7i@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504pf5$aam@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159102 /*: >"I don't really know what I want to say. I don't know that I'm >one of the right people to 'eulogize' Carl. I know that I knew Well, I feel that you are one of the right people. You are fair and honest. DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!atmnet.net!usenet ~From: bob@linkline.com (Bob Clevenger) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:52:58 -0700 Organization: Not Bloody Likely! ~Lines: 21 Message-ID: <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> ~Reply-To: bob@linkline.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.67.165.121 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158675 comp.os.vms:154356 daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) wrote: >...didn't like Lydick's net presense much, but it isn't really because >he was abusive, it is primarily because I thought he was no more aware of his >own failings that were those he criticized. > >I am inexplicably saddened at the word of his death. > >I do hope, however, that should news of my own death one day reach this >news group at least one of you will have the guts to suggest the >world has suffered no great loss. The world will little note nor will it be greatly diminished by the death of Carl. Those of us who knew him, even briefly, are another matter completely. -=Bob=- in Ontario, Calif. NRA, CRPA, SCA, IOOF, N6MLV I'm a politician's worst nightmare --- A voter with a memory! Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!news ~From: Thomas Dzubin ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 17:36:15 GMT Organization: Repap BC Inc. ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: line187.nwm.mindlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158596 comp.os.vms:154286 (crossposted to alt.callahans AND comp.os.vms) dpm@access4.digex.net (David P. Murphy) wrote: >"I'm new here, and maybe i'm out of line to do this, but ya'll care about >the guy one way or another, so maybe you'd wanna know about this letter. >i wrote it, i mailed it, and i guess i'd do it again. comp.os.vms was the >best of newsgroups and the worst of newsgroups because of him --- >but i didn't want him fired and i sure as hell didn't want him dead." > >he tacks the papers up on the wall at http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm >then just as slowly walks over to the bar. (after toasting with a Root Beer and vodka....) Thanks PhaseOfTheMoon for posting this extra information. we certainly don't blame you for anything...this all might of happened eventually with or without the letter. I too was one of the "verbally abused" many times on COMP.OS.VMS but after waiting for my blood pressure to come down I realized that Carl was almost always right...he just had a ...different...way of telling people. I shall miss him and I will probably now be visiting alt.callahans a bit more. I guess we now know that The Great Beyond will be changing OS platforms to OpenVMS Real Soon Now. :-) Mike, better order up another case of Root Beer...I think we're getting low. Faversham Vancouver, BC. CANADA Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.ysu.edu!news.cmich.edu!342e5b7 ~From: M'jit M Raindancer <342E5B7@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu> ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:45:17 EDT Organization: Central Michigan University ~Lines: 9 Message-ID: <96241.214517342E5B7@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Disclaimer: Author bears full responsibility for this post ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158646 comp.os.vms:154345 I first came under fire from Speaker when I made the mistake of making a few blanket statements about Christians and their stand on abortion. I ended my input on the thread by grabbing the fire extinguisher and liberally hosing him down. I can't remember if he yelled at me for being immature or just turned away in disgust. I do remeber his reply seeming pretty cold, though. M'jit Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!daq ~From: daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) Followup-To: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 21:58:52 GMT Organization: PROTEUS ~Lines: 46 Message-ID: <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpesdaq.fc.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1.4] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158613 comp.os.vms:154322 Thomas Dzubin (dzubint@vcn.bc.ca) wrote: : (crossposted to alt.callahans AND comp.os.vms) : dpm@access4.digex.net (David P. Murphy) wrote: : >"I'm new here, and maybe i'm out of line to do this, but ya'll care about : >the guy one way or another, so maybe you'd wanna know about this letter. : >i wrote it, i mailed it, and i guess i'd do it again. comp.os.vms was the : >best of newsgroups and the worst of newsgroups because of him --- : >but i didn't want him fired and i sure as hell didn't want him dead." : > : >he tacks the papers up on the wall at http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm : >then just as slowly walks over to the bar. : (after toasting with a Root Beer and vodka....) : Thanks PhaseOfTheMoon for posting this extra information. we certainly : don't blame you for anything...this all might of happened eventually : with or without the letter. : I too was one of the "verbally abused" many times on COMP.OS.VMS : but after waiting for my blood pressure to come down I realized that : Carl was almost always right...he just had a ...different...way of : telling people. I shall miss him and I will probably now be visiting : alt.callahans a bit more. : I guess we now know that The Great Beyond will be changing OS platforms : to OpenVMS Real Soon Now. :-) Complaining to superiors about a person's net behavior is always inappropriate. ...didn't like Lydick's net presense much, but it isn't really because he was abusive, it is primarily because I thought he was no more aware of his own failings that were those he criticized. I am inexplicably saddened at the word of his death. I do hope, however, that should news of my own death one day reach this news group at least one of you will have the guts to suggest the world has suffered no great loss. My sympathies are with those suffering from Carl's death. doug Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 23:32:10 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 24 Message-ID: <502ktq$h3f@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158632 comp.os.vms:154333 doug formerly known as the cynic: >...didn't like Lydick's net presense much, but it isn't really because >he was abusive, it is primarily because I thought he was no more aware of his >own failings that were those he criticized. >I am inexplicably saddened at the word of his death. >I do hope, however, that should news of my own death one day reach this >news group at least one of you will have the guts to suggest the >world has suffered no great loss. "you won't hear it from me...not because i lack guts, but because i don't bellieve it." >My sympathies are with those suffering from Carl's death. "thanks." kitten smiles at doug. -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!netnews.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!munnari.OZ.AU!metro!metro!news ~From: alh@Physics.usyd.edu.au (Shonias) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 03:03:35 GMT Organization: School of Physics, University of Sydney, Australia ~Lines: 24 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <5031a7$ra1@metro.usyd.edu.au> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: suphys.physics.usyd.edu.au In article <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com>, Doug Quarnstrom wrote: >I do hope, however, that should news of my own death one day reach this >news group at least one of you will have the guts to suggest the >world has suffered no great loss. But Doug, when does world suffer much loss? The world suffered no great loss at the passing of my dear beagle, but a small group of people have suffered a lot. Same would be true of your passing I would imagine. And those who pop up in many newsgroups, well, their passing may actually impact on a lot of the world, it could at least be said the world has suffered some loss. But no, the world has suffered no great loss at the passing of Carl Lydick. >My sympathies are with those suffering from Carl's death. And mine. Shonias -- *********************************** Thunder and lightning in the dark Light up the fires inside my heart. *********************************** Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!urvile.msus.edu!jstafford.winona.msus.edu!user ~From: Stafford@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:46:31 -0500 Organization: WSUIS ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jstafford.winona.msus.edu x-no-archive: yes X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b27.1+ ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158753 comp.os.vms:154443 In article <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com>, daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) wrote: > [snip] > In other words, is noone willing to be a bit of a bastard in > memory of Carl? I think he would have wanted it that way. ;-) Funny, but I have a feeling that the person who takes over Carl's job will be so challenged that he will eventually _become_ a bastard! Good luck, Cal Tech! (still smiling) $edit/edt/nocommand lydick-archive.lis subs /shit-for-brians/sweetie/ 1:32767 /notype exit $exit ! R.I.P -- John J. Stafford - Winona State University Information Services Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 18:58:26 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 11 Message-ID: <505ar2$aol@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <96241.214517342E5B7@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159026 On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:45:17 EDT in alt.callahans, M'jit M Raindancer <342E5B7@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu> said: : I first came under fire from Speaker when I made the mistake of making a few : blanket statements about Christians and their stand on abortion. I ended : my input on the thread by grabbing the fire extinguisher and liberally hosing : him down. "I remember that. I told him to quit trolling the Christians, already..." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!wariat.org!kf8nh.apk.net!news ~From: bsa@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 20:05:24 -0400 Organization: Brandon's home server in Parma, Ohio ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <505b84$7jt@kf8nh.apk.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kf8nh.apk.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158783 comp.os.vms:154471 Also sprach kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) (<504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>): +----- | >In other words, is noone willing to be a bit of a bastard in | >memory of Carl? I think he would have wanted it that way. | | most folks who didn't like him are trying to show respect for those of | us who did. (i could be wrong and i don't want to claim to know how | other people feel....but that's my take on the situation.)" +--->8 Hell, yes, he was a b*st*rd on the 'Net. Then again, ask my boss how I am in person. (I think Speaker and I were opposites in that regard.) Which makes it difficult for me to rant too much about him: "hello Mr. Kettle, I'm Mr. Pot...!" -- ++brandon s. allbery flying with merlin! bsa@kf8nh.apk.net telotech's "loup-guru" :-) FORZA CREW! bsa@telotech.com Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!daq ~From: daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) Followup-To: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 16:38:54 GMT Organization: PROTEUS ~Lines: 16 Message-ID: <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpesdaq.fc.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1.4] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158730 comp.os.vms:154415 Bob Clevenger (bob@linkline.com) wrote: : The world will little note nor will it be greatly diminished by the : death of Carl. Those of us who knew him, even briefly, are another : matter completely. Of course. It is difficult for the common man to impress the world with positive achievement. This does not make him irrelevant. But I do still think Carl might have respected someone who did not soft-pedal their distaste for him just because he has died. I feel the same way, and I was just trying to make that point as, well, tactfully as I might. In other words, is noone willing to be a bit of a bastard in memory of Carl? I think he would have wanted it that way. doug Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 17:42:28 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 31 Message-ID: <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158737 comp.os.vms:154421 >Bob Clevenger (bob@linkline.com) wrote: >: The world will little note nor will it be greatly diminished by the >: death of Carl. Those of us who knew him, even briefly, are another >: matter completely. doug: >Of course. It is difficult for the common man to impress the >world with positive achievement. This does not make him >irrelevant. But I do still think Carl might have respected >someone who did not soft-pedal their distaste for him just >because he has died. I feel the same way, and I was just >trying to make that point as, well, tactfully as I might. >In other words, is noone willing to be a bit of a bastard in >memory of Carl? I think he would have wanted it that way. kitten sort of agrees...."i think that there are people who are being honest about their feelings...to quote t.c. 'i didn't like the man, but i didn't wish him ill'. and (in another newsgroup) someone who really hated speaker said so...that he wasn't sorry that he was dead. most folks who didn't like him are trying to show respect for those of us who did. (i could be wrong and i don't want to claim to know how other people feel....but that's my take on the situation.)" -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news1.radix.net!news ~From: "Chris Barnhart" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 17:53:42 GMT Organization: RadixNet Internet Services ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <01bb95d3$4ddd2fc0$2e8b9dcc@cbarnhart.radix.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin23.annex4.radix.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158739 comp.os.vms:154426 Kitten said: > most folks who didn't like him are trying to show respect for those of > us who did. (i could be wrong and i don't want to claim to know how > other people feel....but that's my take on the situation.)" > > -- > kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski > /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" > {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're > ~ not anywhere at all?' > I quite agree. It may be interpreted as respect for the dead, but it has more to do with respect for the living. The people who are in mourning for StM (now St. M? :>) are people I care about and if I had hard feelings on the subject, I would most likely keep them to myself just out of respect for them... Which, I add hastily, doesn't mean I think *ill* of anyone who chooses differently, not that it matters so much what I think. It's just a choice I've made for myself. ______________________________________________________________________ _ Chris Barnhart - TechnoPup | "Verbosity leads to unclear, cbarnhart@radix.net | inarticulate things." http://www.radix.net/~cbarnhart | -Dan Quayle ________________________________|_____________________________________ _ Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.interlog.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 22:29:16 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 49 Message-ID: <505jls$qcq@zot.io.org> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. The lighter side: One net.legend's comments on another...(check out the original article). ------------ ~From: Archimedes.Plutonium@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium) ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.med,sci.bio.misc,sci.math,sci.astro, alt.fan.jai-maharaj ~Subject: Styx and Re: Carl Lydick ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 22:18:04 GMT Organization: Pu ~Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5054us$r9c@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> In article <504o84$4g0@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Archimedes.Plutonium@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium) writes: [AP deleted a looong Enemies List, plus the warning that anyone might be 'struck dead' at any time by the Maker] > Someone must keep a statistical track of the above persons as to > birth, what kind of people they were, job, death and any other > correlation points, other than the fact that the Electrons caused them > to blasphemy the Maker, Our Maker, 231PU. ATOM Statistical correlation of a group of science clowns. Carl Lydick to my best guess was a squawking bird in his previous life, at least that is what I could make out from his posting behavior on the Internet attacking me, and to my best guess will be reincarnated as a blind and dumb to his physical surroundings, with a big squawking mouth and have a terrible go at life. He will be 231PU's guinea pig experiment of a know nothing of his surroundings and squawk so loud that his enemies, crows or other birds come in and take him away. This will be repeated many times for the photon/neutrino soul of Carl Lydick so that he learns that lesson. See the Indian philosophy of Hindu religion to learn how one breaks the chain of a stuck-in-reincarnation. Remember that Hindu teachings predates the Atom theory of Democritus and the One Atom Everything of plutonium by milleniums. So, whenever you see a little bird in a nest or on the ground squawking real loud that has a high probability of being the reincarnated Carl Lydick, until his lesson is learned that he is a no nothing loud mouthed voyager of the immense and beautiful Creator 231PU. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!access4.digex.net!jaelle ~From: Judy Gerjuoy ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:06:29 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, USA ~Lines: 29 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jaelle@access4.digex.net To: barbara trumpinski In-Reply-To: <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158782 comp.os.vms:154470 On 29 Aug 1996, barbara trumpinski wrote: [snip] > kitten sort of agrees...."i think that there are people who are being > honest about their feelings...to quote t.c. 'i didn't like the man, > but i didn't wish him ill'. and (in another newsgroup) someone who > really hated speaker said so...that he wasn't sorry that he was dead. > > most folks who didn't like him are trying to show respect for those of > us who did. (i could be wrong and i don't want to claim to know how > other people feel....but that's my take on the situation.)" I know that it is true in some cases - and I hope it is true in a lot. For better or worse nothing we say now will help or harm Carl - but it could hurt people who are still with us and grieving. There is no real need to add to their grief. Jaelle cc: Kitten jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!claudia ~From: claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 23:05:28 GMT Organization: NowHere ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5057no$7pb@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunster-lab1.student.harvard.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158769 comp.os.vms:154455 Doug Quarnstrom (daq@fc.hp.com) wrote: : In other words, is noone willing to be a bit of a bastard in : memory of Carl? I think he would have wanted it that way. Claudia shrugs. "I called him an ass in front of however many people care to read the post. That's about as strong as I'll get about someone who's just died who has people listening who remember him fondly. Remembrance is for those who are still alive. Besides, I didn't alter my language to fit his when he was alive, why should I now when (as I believe) he can't even hear it?" "Perhaps he'd respect that, too." Claudia -- "I don't know why I can't think of anything I would rather do Than be wasting my time on mountains with you" -- Mountain Duet, Chess -O Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: Sue Lemcke ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 21:53:18 -0500 Organization: Dell Computer Corp. ~Lines: 8 Message-ID: <3227A91E.158F@ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> ~Reply-To: slemcke@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aus-tx5-05.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 30 9:55:28 PM CDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158980 Berek wrote: > Welcome to the Place, Berek! May I buy you your first drink? Glad you're here, and hope you stick around a while. Sue ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms Path: news2.digex.net!news5.digex.net!haven.umd.edu!news.ums.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!marlin.jcu.edu.au!imla ~From: imla@jcu.edu.au (Lynn Alford) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) Message-ID: ~Sender: news@marlin.jcu.edu.au (USENET News System) Organization: James Cook University ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <5057no$7pb@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~Date: 30 Aug 96 22:55:10 GMT ~Lines: 18 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158866 comp.os.vms:154541 "Once upon a time, a couple of years back, I had two pieces of email that I was specifically keeping from StM. The first one was where StM got something wrong. The second was blanket permission to post the first if I ever felt he was getting too arrogant in a.c." Nicarra grins. "Naturally, I ended up disappearing from the group without ever using the letters, but I thought this was an appropriate time to tell this story." "To StM." CRASH Nicarra -- lynn.alford@jcu.edu.au | "Any new way to infiltrate myself lalford@nyx.cs.du.edu | into your minds." Tim Curry Centre for Interactive Multimedia | http://www.jcu.edu.au/~imla/Lynn2.html Game Review pages based at http://www.jcu.edu.au/~imla/games2.html Path: news2.digex.net!news5.digex.net!haven.umd.edu!ames!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!scoop.eco.twg.com!usenet ~From: mike@vishnu.eco.twg.com (Mike Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 23:23:18 GMT Organization: The Wollongong Group ~Lines: 164 Message-ID: <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: vishnu.eco.twg.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158867 comp.os.vms:154544 There is a sudden *C*R*U*M*P*!! out in the parking lot, and the furniture and glassware jump slightly where they sit. The shards in the fireplace tinkle as they settle slightly, and the hottub sloshes wildly...though without spilling a drop (you expected no less, right?) Someone says, "What the heck was that!?!", into the sudden, and highly unusual, silence that follows, but there are no replies. Everyone seems to be waiting to see what will happen next before they react. After a slight delay, there come a series of measured *THUMPS*, slowly approaching the door to The Place. The building vibrates slightly with each one. It sounds like *footsteps*, but there's no way...nah, couldn't possibly... The door opens smoothly, revealing a set of extremely large legs topped by a belt buckle the size of a dinner plate, depicting the messy death of some unfortunate reptilian creature at the hands of an armored human. There's something odd about the legs, but it's too dim to be sure what it is...though they *seem* to _shift_ without moving, taking on varying appearances from moment to moment. One glance and they appear to be wrapped in fur...a blink later the covering looks more like denim...and the next time it's some sort of shiny alloy. Must just be the light...yeah, that's it...got to be... Mike the bartender looks around the room, then back to the door, still calmly polishing a glass, not looking worried or flustered in the least. Back at the door, something is happening...whatever is out there seems to be bending and crouching a bit in an attempt to see inside... A face appears. Well, sort of. Like the legs, it's hard to see exactly what it looks like. It shifts subtly from moment to moment, now looking like a bearded face in a horned helmet, then a much more modern face with a neatly trimmed beard, then a glittering crystal transparency-englobed head. The only thing that seems to remain present at all times is the beard, though it changes length and style every few seconds. After scanning the bar, and with a muffled, "this seems to be the place...", the creature ducks its head, turns slightly sideways to get its shoulders through, and squeezes inside. It stands up, stretching a sudden kink out of its back, and looks around the room again, stopping briefly at each person and giving a slight nod of acknowledgement. The shifting aspect of its appearance seems less obvious in the brighter light of the bar than it did in the shaddows of the doorway, but its still hard to nail down exactly what one is seeing. The only sure thing is that it is large, and not immediately threatening...whatever it is. The creature finishes its scan of the premises and patrons, then says in a loud friendly voice, "Hello! I'm Berek Halfaxe, and I'm pleased to meet each and every one of you! Been looking for this place for some time now, though I didn't know it until today, and I'm glad I managed to track it down, though I wish the circumstances were more cheerful." The creature shifts position a little, looking uncomfortable. There's a slight strobe effect, almost below the level of awareness, as its aspect changes back and forth between the metalic, crystal-helmetted form and each of the others, in a repeating sequence. "I was over on comp.os.vms, and I got word of Carl's recent death. I understand the differences of opinion about Carl, and I can't argue with any of them, but in the couple of interactions I had with Carl I found him to be very helpful and a provider of first rate information about VMS." "He was completely intolerant of people who engaged their mouths before letting their brains get up to operating temps, but if you asked an intelligent question, providing all relevent details with your request, he was always there with a solid answer. Even when I questioned his reply once, he responded with a polite and useful answer, since in my question I had explained why I was having trouble reconciling his answer with what I was seeing on my system. He provided additional information that resolved the confusion, and I thanked him for the trouble and the help. He was most gracious in victory." "I was never the recipient of one of his flameblasts, which may be why I considered him more of a net.character and valuable resource than anything harmful or destructive, but I witnessed several of them on hapless individuals who posted ill-formed and half-documented questions. Carl considered such people to be a waste of time, and said so without hesitation. The resulting conflagration ate up considerable bandwidth, but Carl's part was usually relatively minor as others went back and forth on the merits of Carl, his style, and the results thereof." "Funny thing though, even his detractors granted the utility of his information without a struggle. Everyone agreed that Carl usually knew what he was talking about and were willing to chance his flamethrower when they needed an answer. They only disagreed about his communication style and lack of ability to "suffer fools gladly". Everyone will miss him in one way or another." "Carl's last good deed in my case was sort of indirect. His death resulted in the posting of an announcement of the places Carl hung out...one of which is Callahan's. I figured that a place like this HAD to be having a wake for old Carl, so I got a lead on the place and 'ported on over. Sorry if I startled anyone...my estimates were off a little and I came in higher than I expected. Not my best landing at all, and," Berek looks at Mike, "I'll be happy to pay for getting the holes in the parking lot repaired." Mike smiles and nods. "Anyway, I'm sorry Carl isn't going to be around here anymore, and we'll miss his expertise on comp.os.vms, but I'm glad he helped me find The Place anyway. It looks like just the sort of crowd I like and haven't been able to find for a long time." Berek pauses for a moment, as if looking back over a big span of years, then says, "I've heard about some of your customs here, and now that I've introduced myself, and said most of what I came to say about Carl to some folks who obviously were affected by him as well, for better or worse, I think..." He steps over to the bar, the floor giving slightly under his larger than average mass, and produces a few gold coins of primitive appearance. They clink quietly as he sets them on the bar. "Mike? A double Tullemore Dew please?" Mike sets up the whiskey, and Berek takes it and moves as carefully as possible to the firing line, weaving between patrons and minding his elbows so as not to brain anyone along the way. He stops, the toes of his...fur boots?...sneakers?...vacuum armor??...positioned exactly at the designated spot. He raises his glass high, stopping just clear of the feet of the rafter-sitters. "Carl, I doubt you had any more idea of *all* of the side effects your words had on others than any of the rest of us do, but I thank you for the help you gave, forgive you the trouble you caused, and hope that you are happy wherever you are. I hope everyone who encountered you will consider your efforts and learn *something* from your time on this planet. I know I have and it's not something I'd be likely to learn from anyone less controversial than you were. THANK YOU FOR BEING CARL LYDICK! NOBODY ELSE WANTED THE JOB, AND, BOY, WERE YOU GOOD AT IT!!" The tumbler is upended, the whiskey responds to the demands of gravity and disapears forever. Berek considers the tumbler for a moment, then hauls back and lets fly at the fireplace. There's a slight *craack* as it goes trans-sonic at the release, and leaves a slight contrail in the air, but for some unexplainable reason it slows suddenly to a safe velocity just before impacting the bricks at the rear of the fireplace and joining the rest of the shards in the pile on the ashes below. Berek nods around the room to thank everyone for listening, and moves to an open spot near the end of the bar. As he passes the LoR the shifting aspect of his appearance is gone and he is suddenly dressed in jeans, a T-shirt (which keeps changing its appearance even in that revealing light...) and sneakers, but, amazingly, his size doesn't change much! He's still head and shoulders above most everyone else, at least six and a half feet tall, and though not fat, the floor still creaks a bit when he moves over it. The beard is still there too. He passes out of the light and the jeans immediately look more like leather armor, the T-shirt grows a pelt and the sneakers develop steel spikes and spurs. The next instant it's all different again. Or is that the same? If something's appearance is to change all the time, and it changes, is it different or the same? The stool creaks alarmingly as he sits and asks Mike for another round and produces a handful of German Marks. "Use the extra money for the next few toasters...and, thanks for letting me sound off." Slowly the room noise level returns to its previous level as everyone goes back to business as usual. Berek sips his drink and watches the whole thing, watcher now, rather than watched. Everything in its turn... -- Berek "'nuff said...for now..." Halfaxe -- Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 15:34:04 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 21 Message-ID: <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158967 On 30 Aug 1996 23:23:18 GMT in alt.callahans, Mike Bartman said: :[...] : Slowly the room noise level returns to its previous level as everyone goes : back to business as usual. Berek sips his drink and watches the whole : thing, watcher now, rather than watched. Everything in its turn... "Hello, Berek Halfaxe. Welcome to the Place. There's another Berek over there somewhere, too, though, already--you'll have to sort out a way to tell yourselves apart." "It's nice to see some of the comp.os.vms crowd wandering over here, seeing as how we just lost our own resident VAX/VMS god..." Leslie. Who asked some really ignorant VMS questions, herself... --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news1.erols.com!news ~From: noellynn@erols.com (Noel Lynne Figart) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 11:40:42 GMT Organization: Pendragon Dream Factory ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5098lb$ncb@test-sun.erols.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> ~Reply-To: noellynn@erols.com NNTP-Posting-Host: frd-as1s37.erols.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158899 comp.os.vms:154565 mike@vishnu.eco.twg.com (Mike Bartman) piped up: >THANK YOU FOR BEING CARL LYDICK! NOBODY ELSE >WANTED THE JOB, AND, BOY, WERE YOU GOOD AT IT!!" Noel begins to laugh. Alamus, the microphant, thumps his trunk against the ground and writes with his foot in the sawdust, IT ONLEE TRU IF IT MAKES U LAFF >Slowly the room noise level returns to its previous level as everyone goes >back to business as usual. Berek sips his drink and watches the whole >thing, watcher now, rather than watched. Everything in its turn... You are quite welcome here, sir!" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.put.com!main.put.com!silence ~From: Rose Platt ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To: mike@vishnu.eco.twg.com ~Sender: usenet@news.put.com (The Root) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: main.put.com ~Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 15:48:07 GMT ~Lines: 21 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159062 Silence grins at the newcomer. "I'm sorry your visit was occasioned by such sad happenings," she says, "but perhaps I can cheer you up by following another aspect of Callahan's: Buying a newcomer's first (or, in this case, third) drink. Feel free to rain-check the offer for later, or accept it now, or never accept; that's up to you. In any case, be welcome." She glances towards the bar. "Mike, you already have my whole purse, I think," she says, "but please set aside a coin or two for Berek here. I imagine a throat that large needs a lot of drinks to keep it from getting dry, especially after a speech like that! "Berek, if you need or want more information about a.c, feel free to ask; you might also want to watch for a post from a lady named Leslie, Keeper of the FAQ, who has FAQ-getting information in her .sig. You'll find, I think, that most people are equally happy to give some information about themselves--or you can just sit and watch and see who we are and what we do. I hope your stay is longer than you are tall, and equally merry!" "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." --Mark Twain Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: Sue Lemcke ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 23:05:05 -0500 Organization: Dell Computer Corp. ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <32290B71.7EAE@ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> ~Reply-To: slemcke@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aus-tx3-02.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 31 9:07:18 PM PDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159056 Michael D. Bartman wrote: > > leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: > "Don't be too hard on yourself. The only really dumb questions I've > heard all had to do with why it isn't more like Unix...and I'm sure > you never got that bad." Yeah, but why isn't Unix more like VMS???? Sue Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 01:43:30 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50api5$g9p@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <3227A91E.158F@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158991 Sue Lemcke wrote: >Berek wrote: >> > >> >Welcome to the Place, Berek! May I buy you your first drink? Berek's shifting appearance begins to concentrate more toward the denim and sneakers side as he turns to the friendly person who's just offered liquid sustenence and says, "Thank you very much! I'm sorry that you can't buy my first drink...I did that for the toast to Carl...but you can certainly buy my *next* drink! Much appreciated!" >Glad you're here, and hope you stick around a while. "Thanks, I'm glad to be here too. I never know how long I can stay in one place though...change is my life, as you may have noticed...but I'll stay as long as I can and come back as soon as I can thereafter. I've been watching the crowd since I sat down here and they look like nice folks for the most part. There's one or two that might benefit from a little 'lesson', but I'm not going to butt in on my first night...at least no more than I already have." His face suddenly brightens and he says, "Hey! Would you like to be the first person *I* specifically buy a drink for? I kicked a few into the kitty for toasters, but I haven't bought a drink for anyone in particular yet..." --Berek "at least one 'first' a day keeps the boredom away" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 01:55:41 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50aq92$gno@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <5098lb$ncb@test-sun.erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158943 comp.os.vms:154582 noellynn@erols.com (Noel Lynne Figart) wrote: >mike@vishnu.eco.twg.com (Mike Bartman) piped up: >>THANK YOU FOR BEING CARL LYDICK! NOBODY ELSE >>WANTED THE JOB, AND, BOY, WERE YOU GOOD AT IT!!" >Noel begins to laugh. Alamus, the microphant, thumps his trunk >against the ground and writes with his foot in the sawdust, IT ONLEE >TRU IF IT MAKES U LAFF The thumping of the trunk catches Berek's attention and he looks with interest at the words in the sawdust. He ponders them for a few seconds, then smiles...wider and wider, then lets loose with a huge guffaw! "Thank you Alamus, I'll remember that! I like making people laugh, and I like truth...maybe you've found the connection?" He suddenly shifts expression to a mock seriousness and continues, "Of course, I'm not sure what this means when it comes to the speeches of our politicians..." >>Slowly the room noise level returns to its previous level as everyone goes >>back to business as usual. Berek sips his drink and watches the whole >>thing, watcher now, rather than watched. Everything in its turn... >You are quite welcome here, sir!" "Thank you! Glad to be here! I'll try not to step on any toes, litterally or figuratively, while I learn the ropes, but please feel free to give me a course change if I start to drift into forbidden territory, manners-wise." He lifts his glass in salute, and smiles. --Berek "more warmth than is explained by the booze" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 02:47:54 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 58 Message-ID: <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158997 leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: >On 30 Aug 1996 23:23:18 GMT in alt.callahans, >Mike Bartman said: >:[...] >: Slowly the room noise level returns to its previous level as everyone goes >: back to business as usual. Berek sips his drink and watches the whole >: thing, watcher now, rather than watched. Everything in its turn... >"Hello, Berek Halfaxe. Welcome to the Place. "Thank you. I'm glad I found it...it's a really nice place to be from everything I've seen so far...though it looks like there might be a couple of nettles in the garden...ah, well, plenty of time for that later if necessary." >"There's another Berek >over there somewhere, too, though, already--you'll have to sort out >a way to tell yourselves apart." Berek lifts his head and glances where Leslie indicates. "Thanks, yeah, I noticed a little while ago. No relation, I'm sure. I've run into a few 'Bereks' here and there before, but for some reason there hasn't been much confusion over who's who." Berek's shifting appearance speeds up slightly and becomes wilder, flashes of purple lace, knitted seaweed and clouds of glittering bronze dust joining the more usual, for him, pattern of barbarian splendor, American casual and deep space finery. He grins, and continues, "But if there is, we can work something out. It wouldn't be the first time I've used a different name to make life easier on others. What's in a name anyway? A rose by any other name would still prick your finger." >"It's nice to see some of the comp.os.vms crowd wandering over here, >seeing as how we just lost our own resident VAX/VMS god..." "Yeah. I don't expect many to stay for long though...no terminals here!" He smiles at his own joke. "I'm no VMS god, but I've been herding and training the things for several generations now so if you have any questions, I'll take a shot at answering. No replacement for Carl, but what would be?" >Leslie. Who asked some really ignorant VMS questions, herself... "Don't be too hard on yourself. The only really dumb questions I've heard all had to do with why it isn't more like Unix...and I'm sure you never got that bad." Berek takes another sip, but keeps an eyebrow raised to let him see if he's just put his foot in it or not... > Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! > *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Oh, and I owe you a drink at your earliest convenience for the fine brochures for The Place! They were immensely helpful in finding it and (apparently) not making a complete ass of myself immediately. Good work! --Berek "wise enough to scout before entering" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!mcsun!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!user ~From: peter@table76.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 03:01:35 +0100 Organization: Improving? ~Lines: 13 Distribution: world Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: table76.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: table76.demon.co.uk ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158992 In article <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) wrote: >most folks who didn't like him are trying to show respect for those of >us who did. (i could be wrong and i don't want to claim to know how >other people feel....but that's my take on the situation.)" "Maybe there were more people who liked/respected him than we realised? And than he realised? That'd be sad though, not finding out in time. I didn't get involved in many of the threads that had the most shouting, which might influence my view of him, of course." Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!tezcat!imci5!imci4!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 05:25:08 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 29 Message-ID: <32291de6.165881286@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> <32290B71.7EAE@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co32-39.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 01 12:31:02 AM CDT 1996 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159050 The Ever-So-Wise Sue Lemcke wrote: ->Michael D. Bartman wrote: ->> ->> leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: -> ->> "Don't be too hard on yourself. The only really dumb questions I've ->> heard all had to do with why it isn't more like Unix...and I'm sure ->> you never got that bad." -> ->Yeah, but why isn't Unix more like VMS???? -> ->Sue -> -> 88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888 to you Sue, although I'm not entirely sure why, it just seems appropriate. So, VAX and UNIX isn't much alike huh??? John [Who's still strugling with CL] Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 16:15:23 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50ccl6$9ei@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> <32290B71.7EAE@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159086 Sue Lemcke wrote: >Michael D. Bartman wrote: >> leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: > >> "Don't be too hard on yourself. The only really dumb questions I've >> heard all had to do with why it isn't more like Unix...and I'm sure >> you never got that bad." >Yeah, but why isn't Unix more like VMS???? "The real answer? VMS was engineered, Unix 'jess growed'. Given the differences in origin it isn't too surprising that Unix ended up a tangled mess in which you can find nearly any shape you might want...if you look long and hard enough." Berek smiles at this, "While VMS is much easier to comprehend and work with quickly, but is still capable of getting the job done in a reliable way. I see the two, in botany terms, as a bonsai tree vs. a tangle of brambles. Which is preferable depends on whether you are a gardener or a rabbit." "The more philosophical answer?" Berek begins to produce, with full orchestration, the theme song from _Exodus_, while simultaneously singing: 'There are some things, man was not meant to know, and songs not meant to sing...and this is one of them!'" Then drains the last of his drink and signals Mike for another with a crisp new dollar bill placed precisely on the bar. > "For that bit of bash-ing pun-ishment I'm prepared to shell out for a drink!" --Berek "just the VAX ma'am, nothing but the VAX" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 17:46:11 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50ci53$v4p@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bb95d3$4ddd2fc0$2e8b9dcc@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159020 comp.os.vms:154605 In article <01bb95d3$4ddd2fc0$2e8b9dcc@cbarnhart.radix.net>, Chris Barnhart wrote: > >I quite agree. It may be interpreted as respect for the dead, but it >has more to do with respect for the living. The people who are in >mourning for StM (now St. M? :>) are people I care about and if I >had hard feelings on the subject, I would most likely keep them to >myself just out of respect for them... Hey now, I liked Carl, one of my favorite newsgroups is far poorer without him, but he warn't no saint. Jes' because he's dead, don't you go sterilizin' him. (Hmm, looks like I'm gonna have a bit of a Western accent on callahans. Nifty.) Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news1.radix.net!news ~From: cbarnhart@radix.net (Chris Barnhart - (TechnoPup)) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 23:42:23 GMT Organization: Not in my house! ~Lines: 21 Message-ID: <50d6t4$8da@news1.radix.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bb95d3$4ddd2fc0$2e8b9dcc@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50ci53$v4p@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~Reply-To: cbarnhart@radix.net NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin10.annex5.radix.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159057 comp.os.vms:154620 rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) wrote: >Hey now, I liked Carl, one of my favorite newsgroups is far poorer without >him, but he warn't no saint. >Jes' because he's dead, don't you go sterilizin' him. Don't worry. It's all come out anyhow... >"That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you >have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." > - Marco Simons on net censorship __________________________________________________________________ Chris Barnhart - TechnoPup | "Verbosity leads to unclear, cbarnhart@radix.net | inarticulate things." http://www.radix.net/~cbarnhart | -Dan Quayle ________________________________|_________________________________ Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news.his.com!news ~From: teacher@iwc.net (Richard Jensen) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 02:30:55 GMT Organization: Chaos is more fun! ~Lines: 43 Message-ID: <50dgsv$361@news2.his.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlh1.interwebco.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159069 comp.os.vms:154626 In article <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, kittent@staff.uiuc.edu says... > > >>Bob Clevenger (bob@linkline.com) wrote: >>: The world will little note nor will it be greatly diminished by the >>: death of Carl. Those of us who knew him, even briefly, are another >>: matter completely. > >doug: >>Of course. It is difficult for the common man to impress the >>world with positive achievement. This does not make him >>irrelevant. But I do still think Carl might have respected >>someone who did not soft-pedal their distaste for him just >>because he has died. I feel the same way, and I was just >>trying to make that point as, well, tactfully as I might. > >>In other words, is noone willing to be a bit of a bastard in >>memory of Carl? I think he would have wanted it that way. > >kitten sort of agrees...."i think that there are people who are being >honest about their feelings...to quote t.c. 'i didn't like the man, >but i didn't wish him ill'. and (in another newsgroup) someone who >really hated speaker said so...that he wasn't sorry that he was dead. > >most folks who didn't like him are trying to show respect for those of >us who did. (i could be wrong and i don't want to claim to know how >other people feel....but that's my take on the situation.)" Welby returns after finally getting his 'puter back in operation (damn virus-like copy protection) only to note the passing of StM. He comments "While I didn't like the man, I did have a great deal of respect for his learnedness. I honestly believe that the net is lessened because of the loss. Speaker, wherever you are I salute what you have been!! ***K***R***A***S***H***!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Welby retires to his favorite chair. -Welby Dr Welby AKA Richard Jensen teacher@iwc.net http://www.iwc.net/~teacher/index.html Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!new-news.cc.brandeis.edu!ST951787@pip.cc.brandeis.edu ~From: st951787@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (BEREK) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: return/TOAST: Speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 06:22:22 GMT Organization: Brandeis University ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <503cuu$io3@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> ~Reply-To: st951787@pip.cc.brandeis.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: pip.cc.brandeis.edu The hum of a transporter beam and a faint blue shimmer announce Berek's return to the Place. He sets down his luggage, and looks around. There is a strange quiet and the faces seem to be quite ashen. It is then he realizes that a certain Kzin firebrand is noticeably absent. "I'm very sorry to hear about Carl. He and I had a few battles, but I must say that I didn't exactly do much to keep tempers in check. I don't know much about who he really was, but it sounds to me like Carl Lydick knew what he wanted to do with what little time he had left. In that, I cannot find fault. Good luck, Speaker-to-Minerals, wherever you may be!" With that, Berek sits down at his old table, blows the dust off the table, and orders an A&W Diet Cream Soda. "To StM!" The glass disappears from Berek's hand and rematerializes in the fireplace. No Matter Where You Go, There You Are--Buckaroo Banzai st951787@pip.cc.brandeis.edu WavBst@aol.com Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: return/TOAST: Speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 12:50:31 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5079l7$i8p@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <503cuu$io3@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158937 On 29 Aug 1996 06:22:22 GMT in alt.callahans, BEREK said: : : With that, Berek sits down at his old table, blows the dust off the : table, and orders an A&W Diet Cream Soda. "Hiya Berek. Back at school? Is this good news or bad news?" : "To StM!" : : The glass disappears from Berek's hand and rematerializes in the fireplace. "To StM," Leslie says, softly. She places a glass in the fireplace, then orders a Bacardi and diet Coke[tm] which she sets down in front of an empty chair at the bar beside her (next to a Jameson's in front of another empty chair...). "Once a Patron, always a Patron," she says, simply. Leslie. Who'd really like to hear the Prof's voice, about now... Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!news.lvld.hp.com!news ~From: Randy Martens ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: A new Entry in the Allabout regarding Speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:58:37 -0700 Organization: The Vectra at the End of the Universe ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3226128D.3BD6@lvld.hp.com> ~References: <5041fi$1d@crushed.ice.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hplvlrm1.lvld.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) shadowcat wrote: > > The Cat of Knights and Shadows wanders in with a scroll in hand > and calls up RFC. > > "Rambling Rover" by Andy M Stewart begins playing in the backround. > > there is a new entry in the Dedications section of the Allabout > the quote is from Randy Martens > > Speaker to Minerals - Resident Curmudgeon, Bringer of Wisdom, You will be > missed. Why thank you! Please allow me to buy your next potable! -- | "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no | | basis for a system of government" ----------- M. Palin | Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ice.net!usenet ~From: kwalsh@ice.net (shadowcat) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: A new Entry in the Allabout regarding Speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 12:12:34 GMT Organization: Clan Shadowcat ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <5041fi$1d@crushed.ice.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip35.ice.net X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (beta 2) The Cat of Knights and Shadows wanders in with a scroll in hand and calls up RFC. "Rambling Rover" by Andy M Stewart begins playing in the backround. there is a new entry in the Dedications section of the Allabout the quote is from Randy Martens Speaker to Minerals - Resident Curmudgeon, Bringer of Wisdom, You will be missed. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!max.tiac.net!cmarie ~From: cmarie@max.tiac.net (Claudia Marie ) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: A new Entry in the Allabout regarding Speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 96 23:40:35 GMT Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: ~References: <5041fi$1d@crushed.ice.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net kwalsh@ice.net (shadowcat) writes: >The Cat of Knights and Shadows wanders in with a scroll in hand >and calls up RFC. >"Rambling Rover" by Andy M Stewart begins playing in the backround. >there is a new entry in the Dedications section of the Allabout >the quote is from Randy Martens >Speaker to Minerals - Resident Curmudgeon, Bringer of Wisdom, You will be >missed. Claudia's face takes on a wry expression. "There's a difference between wisdom and factual knowledge. My understanding was that it was the latter Speaker strove for." Claudia -- "It seems that 'national security' is the root password to the Constitution. As with any dishonest superuser, the best countermeasure is strong encryption." -Phil Karn Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!news.lvld.hp.com!news ~From: Randy Martens ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: A new Entry in the Allabout regarding Speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:47:03 -0700 Organization: The Vectra at the End of the Universe ~Lines: 24 Message-ID: <32272917.7498@lvld.hp.com> ~References: <5041fi$1d@crushed.ice.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hplvlrm1.lvld.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Claudia Marie wrote: > > kwalsh@ice.net (shadowcat) writes: > >The Cat of Knights and Shadows wanders in with a scroll in hand > >and calls up RFC. > > >"Rambling Rover" by Andy M Stewart begins playing in the backround. > > >there is a new entry in the Dedications section of the Allabout > >the quote is from Randy Martens > > >Speaker to Minerals - Resident Curmudgeon, Bringer of Wisdom, You will be > >missed. > > Claudia's face takes on a wry expression. > > "There's a difference between wisdom and factual knowledge. My understanding > was that it was the latter Speaker strove for." Ahh, but knowing how to distinguish between bullsh*t and fact - that's wisdom. Facts never speak for themselves. Someone has to articulate them. -- | "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no | | basis for a system of government" ----------- M. Palin | Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: A new Entry in the Allabout regarding Speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 16:33:45 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <507j79$hob@zot.io.org> ~References: <5041fi$1d@crushed.ice.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 29 Aug 96 23:40:35 GMT in alt.callahans, Claudia Marie said: : kwalsh@ice.net (shadowcat) writes: : >Speaker to Minerals - Resident Curmudgeon, Bringer of Wisdom, You will be : >missed. : : Claudia's face takes on a wry expression. : : "There's a difference between wisdom and factual knowledge. My understanding : was that it was the latter Speaker strove for." "I think I agree with Claudia. An awful lot of people disagreed with StM's idea of 'wisdom.' How about just 'Resident Curmudgeon, and an intellect to be reckoned with'--?" Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!atmnet.net!usenet ~From: bob@linkline.com (Bob Clevenger) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Carl, Speaker, and a mini ABEND ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:46:11 -0700 Organization: Not Bloody Likely! ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3226346e.85601140@news.linkline.com> ~Reply-To: bob@linkline.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.67.165.124 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Well, I've given it some thought, and it occurred to me that although Carl is dead (there, I've said it), Speaker need not be. Speaker was Carl's creation, much as Mike and Fast Eddie and the bunch are Spider's creations. Speaker is not Carl. Think about it; Speaker is lurking as we post these messages. When you get into a heated debate, ask yourself "What would Speaker say to this?" I'll bet that will make you think out your arguments better -- and that's good for everybody. This will be my last post until after Worldcon. There will be an alt.callahan's gathering there; I'm sure that there will be toasts to Carl and a run on dark Bacardi at the bar. -=Bob=- in Ontario, Calif. NRA, CRPA, SCA, IOOF, N6MLV I'm a politician's worst nightmare --- A voter with a memory! Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.sojourn.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!news.texas.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Carl, Speaker, and a mini ABEND ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 23:23:01 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 32 Message-ID: <505qb5$hie@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <3226346e.85601140@news.linkline.com> <505en0$knl@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 30 Aug 1996 01:04:32 GMT in alt.callahans, Doug Quarnstrom said: : Bob Clevenger (bob@linkline.com) wrote: : : When you get into a heated debate, : : ask yourself "What would Speaker say to this?" I'll bet that will make : : you think out your arguments better -- and that's good for everybody. : : What a shit for brains idea. : : How's that? StM: The jackass doesn't even give a reason WHY it's a shit for brains idea. Moron. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Look, StM wouldn't have hit and run like that. He'd have given some argument WHY it was a shit for brains idea in support of his opinion. If you think your response was 'being like Speaker,' you clearly had no clue as to how he operated. "You just followed up to the advice 'think out your arguments better,' and yet you didn't even MAKE an argument, you made an unsupported assertation. If this is your usual style, I can understand why StM flamed you. It is not, however, StM's style. "You are also obviously unware that StM most generally didn't flame first, but attempted a civil approach to begin with, unless the person had committed some egregiously moronic mistake, such as you just did." Leslie. How's *that*. [I never could get the hang of StM's brevity.] Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.sojourn.com!news.eecs.umich.edu!news.lsa.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news2.acs.oakland.edu!nntp.coast.net!oleane!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!bt!btnet-feed1!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!daq ~From: daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Carl, Speaker, and a mini ABEND ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 01:04:32 GMT Organization: PROTEUS ~Lines: 14 Message-ID: <505en0$knl@fcnews.fc.hp.com> ~References: <3226346e.85601140@news.linkline.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpesdaq.fc.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1.4] Bob Clevenger (bob@linkline.com) wrote: : Well, I've given it some thought, and it occurred to me that although : Carl is dead (there, I've said it), Speaker need not be. Speaker was : Carl's creation, much as Mike and Fast Eddie and the bunch are : Spider's creations. Speaker is not Carl. Think about it; Speaker is : lurking as we post these messages. When you get into a heated debate, : ask yourself "What would Speaker say to this?" I'll bet that will make : you think out your arguments better -- and that's good for everybody. What a shit for brains idea. How's that? doug Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Carl, Speaker, and a mini ABEND ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 13:54:34 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 10 Message-ID: <50cm5a$t80@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <3226346e.85601140@news.linkline.com> <505en0$knl@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <505qb5$hie@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159101 >Leslie. How's *that*. [I never could get the hang of StM's brevity.] Uhm Leslie, doug knows how Speaker would have answered... DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: The End of an Era (was Re: r.i.p. speaker) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 16:05:05 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 89 Message-ID: <5050m1$bk2@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. [found in misc.health.diabetes] ~From: "Jonathan W. Mills" ~Newsgroups: misc.health.diabetes ~Subject: Goodbye, Speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:17:19 -0500 (EST) Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University ~Lines: 75 The End of an Era: In Memoriam to Speaker-To-Minerals ----------------------------------------------------- In 1993 I was diagnosed with diabetes. I was going up for tenure, I was in agonizing pain because of neuropathy in my feet, I was depressed and on Prozac and it was telling me that I was brilliant. It was lying, but what the hell, I liked to hear it talking. The net was just beginning to crack open to the general public, America On-Line was foisting it's 10-hour net babies on us, who traipsed through the newsgroups, the web was being spun, and you never saw URLs on cosmetic ads in television. Enter misc.health.diabetes and find an era that has left us. Joan Stout, melynda reid, Ed Reid, Kelly Miller (still posting, yea!), and Carl Lydick, whose true name I didn't find out for years until he told us about the "whois" command...which worked, unlike the snake oil he despised. I still think of him as Speaker-To-Minerals, his net name that indicated a post that in those days usually offered an "on the other hand" opinion. For example, when I claimed that the bruises and swellings I got during the first few months of use of a Medijector were due to an allergic reaction to the preservatives in insulin, Carl suggested that it was my technique that could be at fault ("maybe you aren't always holding it vertically" ...a good point when one injects into one's own buttocks). In that era Carl was a source of alternatives, informed explanations about points that others of us mentioned but otherwise skipped over, and, yes, the sheriff of m.h.d. In those days Speaker would drub the occasional snake oil salesperson with an increasingly incendiary arsenal of posts. First came the "here is why this is false, you fool" reply, then the "can't you understand simple english, you moron", and then, finally, the full eruption of fire and flame, and in those days, an occasional dose of vulgarity. But in what seems an amazingly long time, but has been so short by the calendar -- three years! -- the Internet opened up to the public at large, and changed from the gentler, ditzier place I first found at m.h.d, with its caravan of diabetics who visited each other in real life, and melynda's droll and funny and beautiful verse -- I remember especially her "Mayfly Afternoon" and her description of a Sphinx moth headdress she wore for the performance -- into a series of brawls, flames, spams, and snake oil lakes. There are a few people out there who may claim that it's partly Carl's fault. In his memory, I'll have to say that you morons know who you are. Carl did his best to fry your little tippy-fingers with his posts, which led to a lot of heat. But before we were bombarded with NutraSweet conspiracy posts, with claims, counterclaims, obvious and paltry attempts at retractions of carelessly written or unsupported diabetes information...before all that, m.h.d. was a helpful community, and we were rather proud of our cop. Occasionally Steve "Mr. Mayor" Kirchhoeffer had to rein Speaker in with that asbestos glove, but it wasn't a daily occurence. And Speaker filled a niche, and many of us miss him, and now mourn him, if indeed the post is true. In the past two years I have seen a marked change in m.h.d. The flame wars chased away a lot of the old crowd, sort of like a fire in the hills around LA chasing away a colony of artists. And when I first found m.h.d., it -felt- like that! And, as some of you may not believe, Speaker was an integral part of that community, and it DIDN'T have brawls and shootings constantly. Now m.h.d. has settled down, but it lacks that friendly goofiness that characterized it, even as I learned, with chuckles, how to manage my diabetes, and met some people on the net that I have never met in person, but was glad to call my friends. Carl was a part of those days, and now that he's not here it feels, at least to me, that an era has ended. To me, it's as if these three years have seen the Civil War, or the dropping of the atom bomb -- a sea change in the society of m.h.d. With Carl gone it is now official, I guess. It's not Kansas anymore, Speaker, and it's not in color, either. I'll miss you. Jonathan Mills Associate Professor Computer Science Department Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!realtime.net!news ~From: kath@haven.boston.ma.us (Valentine) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (and a RETURN) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 20:37:34 GMT Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service ~Lines: 58 Message-ID: <841350465.14622@dejanews.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~Reply-To: kath@haven.boston.ma.us NNTP-Posting-Host: bastion.dejanews.com X-RTcode: fa0b46c9328ea28f7625fffd X-Originating-IP-Addr: 155.44.86.74 (dashonmac.hmco.com) The old oak door swings open (how many times, I wonder, has that been said?), this time to admit a young woman. She moves around the Place with the familiarity of someone who's been here before, and often, but with the shyness of one for whom it's been a long time since the last time. To some, there is something familiar about her -- perhaps if that were an oversized purple sweater she were wearing, not a white shirt and a vest, and black leggings instead of jeans? And if you put a black fedora on her head, then maybe -- "Valentine!" says Mike. "Been a while." And sure enough, it's Valentine. She looks a little older, a little more tired, than when she was last here, but it's still the same green eyes looking out from behind gold-framed glasses. She smiles and shakes hands with the big bartender. She looks around the bar -- many new faces, some old friends, and some friends from #callahans. "It has," she says. She is interrupted by a blur of emerald green and an excited <>, as a green firelizard streaks out of nowhere and lands on her shoulder. Valentine grins. "For now, at least, Credo," she says. "So what brings you back?" asks Mike, sliding her a Woodchuck cider before she can even finish getting out her wallet. "Oh, lots of things," she begins, but adds more quietly, "but mostly, I heard the news." She looks over toward the growing pile of glass in the fireplace, in time to hear Claudia say: > "To a loyal friend, a stubborn arguer, an ass, a scientist; someone > people blamed when they left alt.callahans, someone people laughed > to see 'still here' when they came back. I never liked his tactics, > but I came to respect his goals. To Carl Lydick, Speaker to Minerals." She drains the cider as quickly as she can, and sends her glass to join the others with a resounding *smash*. "Claudia, m'friend, you've summed up my feelings better than I could have. I hated the way Carl would abuse people (myself included, though I generally came to ignore the threads he was involved in); he made me so angry I couldn't see straight, sometimes. But I also saw some of the really, really funny things he contributed, and I know he was loyal to those he called friends. Whether any of us liked him personally or not, his loss changes this place. He will be missed." "As for me, personal updates can wait -- a lot's happened since I was last in here. It's good to see you all again." ---- Valentine/Katherine Bryant/kath@haven.boston.ma.us "Well, darkness has a hunger that's insatiable And lightness has a call that's hard to hear..." -- Indigo Girls ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja News: http://www.dejanews.com/ [Search, Post, and Read Usenet News!] Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (and a RETURN) ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 14:31:55 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <507fjb$iv5@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <841350465.14622@dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 29 Aug 1996 20:37:34 GMT in alt.callahans, Valentine said: : : "As for me, personal updates can wait -- a lot's happened since I was last : in here. It's good to see you all again." "Nice to see you again too, Valentine. I suppose I wish it could have been under happier circumstances... "(BTW, I have a link to your 'ST: The Crouton Generation' page. It's truly hilarious, I wish I could have been here to see it happening.)" Leslie --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!scooby.beloit.edu!holmeskh ~From: holmeskh@beloit.edu (Kathryn Holmes) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: RE:Speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 22:39:46 GMT Organization: Beloit College ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <50567i$8is@scooby.beloit.edu> ~Reply-To: holmeskh@beloit.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: beloit.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Thanks to Lady Cheron, I learned about Speaker's death this morning. No posts about him have shown up at this site but my father forwarded a batch of them to me. I never met Carl in person and did not correspond with him in email but was missing his presence in alt.callahans and will continue to do so. VR does have a reality of its own. I have never gone to a Realspace yet I trust in the 'Realness' of Kitten and the others who write that they had direct contact with Carl. I beleive the Carl's death is real just as I believed his living was real even though all I know about either has come from reading words on a screen. --Shadowdancer (joining the group of people who are each dealing with the news in their own way.) Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 17:20:07 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5077s7$pcd@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu razon soldier, with the ever faithful ty, asked me to pitch a glass into the fireplace with a toast to honor speaker.... kitten drinks another bacardi and diet, and pitches the glass into the fireplace HARD! *crash!!!!* -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.moneng.mei.com!news.ecn.bgu.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!aries!wells ~From: wells@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Cindy Wells) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 06:17:27 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 8 Message-ID: <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: aries.scs.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158879 comp.os.vms:154558 Welcome to Callahans, Berek. May I buy you a drink? Cindy places a dollar on the bar. Cindy Wells -- Cindy Wells (Grad - PChem - UIUC) I have abandoned my search for truth and now I'm looking for ... a good fantasy. (author: Ashleigh Brilliant) Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!mcsun!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 02:21:48 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <50arpv$hg5@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158944 comp.os.vms:154583 wells@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Cindy Wells) wrote: >Welcome to Callahans, Berek. May I buy you a drink? >Cindy places a dollar on the bar. Berek tosses back the last of his Tullly, smiles and says, "I never turn down a drink! Thank you very much. Between Sue, Noel and now you, I may end up a might 'over served', so I think I'd better switch to K.B. Tooth and cut in the spare synth-liver!" >(Grad - PChem - UIUC) Berek notices the tag Cindy is wearing and says, "You know, I'm pretty good at a number of things, and my junkyard mind is just chock full of useful odds and ends, but Chemistry is one subject I never could get a handle on. I'm impressed." He considers for a moment, and then says, "You know any fun chemistry songs?" and the sly grin seems to suggest that if she doesn't, he *does*... --Berek "one's even got an Irish tune" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!metro!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!lily.newcastle.edu.au!c9210088 ~From: c9210088@lily.newcastle.edu.au (Claire Black) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) Followup-To: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 05:53:22 GMT Organization: The University of Newcastle ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <50b8ci$rps@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50arpv$hg5@news.cais.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lily.newcastle.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158959 comp.os.vms:154591 Michael D. Bartman (mike@cais.com) wrote: : Berek notices the tag Cindy is wearing and says, "You know, I'm pretty : good at a number of things, and my junkyard mind is just chock full of : useful odds and ends, but Chemistry is one subject I never could get a : handle on. I'm impressed." : He considers for a moment, and then says, "You know any fun chemistry : songs?" and the sly grin seems to suggest that if she doesn't, he : *does*... Claire_Bear (who did one course of University Chemistry before bailing out to the relative safety of Information Systems) says "Please, go ahead and sing them (for me at least :) -- Claire Black c9210088@cs.newcastle.edu.au GIT d-@ s: a- C++>$ ULS+>$ P L+(++) !E W+ N+ o? K--? w !O !M V-- PS? PE? Y? !PGP t+@ 5? X++ R tv b++++ DI-- D++ G e h-- r--@ x? Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: Sue Lemcke ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 14:46:36 -0500 Organization: Dell Computer Corp. ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3229E81C.4558@ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50arpv$hg5@news.cais.com> <50b8ci$rps@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <50cduc$a7a@news.cais.com> ~Reply-To: slemcke@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aus-tx3-11.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 01 2:48:50 PM CDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159032 comp.os.vms:154614 Michael D. Bartman wrote: > > c9210088@lily.newcastle.edu.au (Claire Black) wrote: > "Paradimethylaminobenzaldehyde; > Go soak your head in a good strong insecticide. > Slosh it around and impregnate your brain > With dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane!" > Wysard, do you still have "that" limerick stashed away? I can't find my copy, and I think it would be an appropriate response to this song! Sue Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 16:37:22 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 59 Message-ID: <50cduc$a7a@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50arpv$hg5@news.cais.com> <50b8ci$rps@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159010 comp.os.vms:154599 c9210088@lily.newcastle.edu.au (Claire Black) wrote: >Michael D. Bartman (mike@cais.com) wrote: >: Berek notices the tag Cindy is wearing and says, "You know, I'm pretty >: good at a number of things, and my junkyard mind is just chock full of >: useful odds and ends, but Chemistry is one subject I never could get a >: handle on. I'm impressed." >: He considers for a moment, and then says, "You know any fun chemistry >: songs?" and the sly grin seems to suggest that if she doesn't, he >: *does*... >Claire_Bear (who did one course of University Chemistry before bailing >out to the relative safety of Information Systems) says "Please, go >ahead and sing them (for me at least :) Berek shifts his stool slightly so as to include Claire in the small group of friendly greeters that seem to be gathering near the end of the bar, and says, "Well, since you ask so nicely, sure, one anyway. This one is called _The Chemist's Drinking Song_, and it was written by John A. Carroll after he was inspired by an Isaac Asimov article." The sound of a lively Irish jig begins to emanate from the air near him...and someone mutters that it's called "The Irish Washerwoman". Tapping his foot in time with the music, then doing so less forcefully as he notices everyone else's stools vibrating across the floor like baddly loaded washing machines, he sings: "Paradimethylaminobenzaldehyde, Sodium citrate, ammonium cyanide, Mix 'em together and add some benzene And top off the punch with trichloroethylene!" "Got gassed up last night on some furfuryl alcohol, Followed it up with a gallon of propanol, Tanked up on hydrazine 'til after noon, Then spat on the floor and blew up the saloon!" "Paradimethylaminobenzaldehyde, Powdered aluminum, nitrogen iodide, Chlorates, permanganates, nitrates galore; Just swallow one drink and you'll never need more!" "Whiskey, tequila, and rum are too tame. No, the stuff that I drink must explode into flame When I breath and disolve all the paint in the room And rattle the walls with a ground-shaking boom!" "Paradimethylaminobenzaldehyde; Go soak your head in a good strong insecticide. Slosh it around and impregnate your brain With dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane!" The music fades, Berek grins and waits to see how his performance was recieved. --Berek "I'll refrain from dancing until the floor is reinforced" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!szdc!news ~From: jvinson@rmci.net (John W. Vinson) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 19:15:03 GMT Organization: Wysard of Information ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3229dcb5.4413113@news.rmci.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50arpv$hg5@news.cais.com> <50b8ci$rps@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <50cduc$a7a@news.cais.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159118 mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) wrote: > >Berek shifts his stool slightly so as to include Claire in the small >group of friendly greeters that seem to be gathering near the end of >the bar, and says, "Well, since you ask so nicely, sure, one anyway. >This one is called _The Chemist's Drinking Song_, and it was written >by John A. Carroll after he was inspired by an Isaac Asimov article." John the Wysard (another chemist) recovers from ROFLHAO and thanks Berek for the terrific performance of a hilarious song... "For not being a chemist, you sure have a handle on some pretty esoteric nomenclature! Care for a glass of, say, methylated theobromine solution?" Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!juand.earth.nwu.edu!jed ~From: jed@juand.earth.nwu.edu (John DeLaughter) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 19:05:46 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL, US ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50fb6a$4c@news.acns.nwu.edu> ~References: <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bf <50f3h6$661@news.cais.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: juand.earth.nwu.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159131 mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) writes: >jmiles@usit.net (Janet D. Miles) wrote: >>On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 16:37:22 GMT, in alt.callahans mike@cais.com >>(Michael D. Bartman) wrote: > >>[performance of "The Chemist's Drinking Song" snipped] > >>>The music fades, Berek grins and waits to see how his performance was >>>recieved. > >>With considerable joy and amusement, thank you very much! > >Berek bows and smiles his thanks. > >> Do you know >>Tom Lehrer's "Periodic Table"? I tried memorizing it, figuring it >>would have to be easier with music, but never quite succeeded. On the >>other hand, I didn't spend *all* that much time working on it. > >"I'm afraid my experience with it was similar. Same with _New Math_. >I *did* manage to store away _I Hold Your Hand In Mine_, _Werner von >Braun_, and a couple of others, including _The Vatican Rag_. I had a >slight glitch in my word association array with that last one though, >and unintentionally got a multi-language pun. A friend saw it and >just about laughed himself damp!" If you don't mind a butt-inski, may I suggest you go to: http://www.cybercomm.net/~drz/tom.lehrer/ This website has the lyrics to *all* of Tom Lehrer's songs, including the ones he sang on "Sesame Street". I'll butt back out, now. John DeLaughter Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!spok ~From: Joelyne Swidzinski ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: r.i.p. Speaker to Minerals ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 17:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Grapevine's Posting Service ~Lines: 55 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: f.gp.cs.cmu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: Normal Originator: spok@F.GP.CS.CMU.EDU ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159113 The door on the Place opens to let in two shadowy figures. One walks around with an old familiarity about her, while the second parks his scythe at the coat rack and follows, looking around at all the new sights. They make their way to the bar quietly. "Hi Mike, it's been a while, hasn't it?" Mike looks up, not looking as cheerful as usual. His eyes grow. "JL?" "Yah, it's me, but I prefer to just be Jo. It's who I am." She gives a small smile, "And this is my boyfriend." Giving the skeletal form a once-over, Mike says quietly and with a hint of a jocular tone, "I didn't expect to be seeing you again so soon." "IT'S MY DAY OFF." "Let's see, it's Coke for the lady, and...?" "A TALL MYRRH ON THE ROCKS, IF YOU HAVE IT." Two drinks appear all-but-instantaneously on the table, and the taller figure places a two-dollar coin on the bar. Jo sweeps up her glass of Coke, takes a fortifying swig, and heads for the line. "I hardly knew Speaker to Minerals. I read his posts. At times, I agreed and there were times that I didn't. I know that we're here trying to come to terms with his untimely passing." Jo pauses to take a breath, and to figure out how to say what she wants to say. "Yes, Speaker to Minerals/Carl J. Lydick is dead, but it is just his body that died. His spirit is with every one of us here. He is a part of people -- he made it so through his posts. "May we keep him alive with our memories!" Jo throws her glass into the fireplace with a satisfying ***PLOINK***. Her boyfriend's drink, untouched, hits the hearth, and the fire goes out. But only for a moment. . Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Hello, Berek Halfaxe (was: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker) ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 02:51:21 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 51 Message-ID: <50e3lp$soj@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159129 On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 02:47:54 GMT in alt.callahans, Michael D. Bartman said: : leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: : : "Thank you. I'm glad I found it...it's a really nice place to be from : everything I've seen so far...though it looks like there might be a : couple of nettles in the garden...ah, well, plenty of time for that : later if necessary." "If you'll notice," Leslie says half wryly, half wistfully. "This Place isn't governed by an Author with a vested interest in making sure his characters all get along with each other. And since it's physically impossible for any one person here to like and get along with *everyone* else, all the time, conflicts are bound to crop up. But, yet, still, the Callahan's magic lives on." [...] : >Leslie. Who asked some really ignorant VMS questions, herself... : : "Don't be too hard on yourself. The only really dumb questions I've : heard all had to do with why it isn't more like Unix...and I'm sure : you never got that bad." Berek takes another sip, but keeps an : eyebrow raised to let him see if he's just put his foot in it or : not... "No, nothing like that, thank ghu. My first account was on a VAX cluster, and I'd never really even heard of UNIX. I managed to nuke my mail.mai file, and was almost too embarassed to ask StM for help. And when I groused about the help files, he said the help files were wonderful. Sha, right. If you're a VAX god to begin with, maybe..." : > Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! : > *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** : : Oh, and I owe you a drink at your earliest convenience for the fine : brochures for The Place! They were immensely helpful in finding it : and (apparently) not making a complete ass of myself immediately. : Good work! "Thank you, and you're welcome. My drink is a margarita, straight up, plenty of salt. Make it a double, I think..." : --Berek "wise enough to scout before entering" Halfaxe-- "Very wise indeed," Leslie agrees. Leslie. Who was rereading some of her posts and emails from two years ago. God, I was so naive, not to mention ignorant... Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!usenet ~From: Don Long ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p Speaker - Red Bear ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 19:33:50 GMT Organization: UCLA ~Lines: 7 Message-ID: <50fcqu$2ckk@uni.library.ucla.edu> ~References: <3225F3ED.F7D@ftn.net> <3229d6c2.14380408@news.usit.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts36-16.wla.ts.ucla.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: jmiles@usit.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159115 i wrote a parody a while back which "proved" that StM was not a real person but was a computer program written by students at Cal Tech. If I can find it, I will post it as my tribute to a worthy and admired and missed adversary. If anyone has a copy, please either post or let me know "Do not go gentle into that dark night" Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!babylon5.babcom.com!babylon5.babcom.com!not-for-mail ~From: alaric@babylon5.babcom.com (The Renaissance Man) ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 00:53:30 -0700 Organization: The Babylon Project ~Lines: 64 Message-ID: <5066lq$8ps@babylon5.babcom.com> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com> <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: babcom.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154576 sci.skeptic:204208 alt.callahans:158930 Quoth Stafford@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford): ] In article <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu>, ] claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) wrote: ] ] > Check http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm/ -- the author of that page posted ] > about its existence to comp.os.vms (I think) and alt.callahans (I know). ] ] Yea, I read it. The author is clearly an sysadmin with little training ] in the disciplines of logic or rhetoric. In other words, he's just ] a bit-twiddling moron without a civil clue. "That," Alaric observes acidly, "would be a stunningly astute observation from the available evidence, were it possible to derive it from the available evidence. "However, inasmuch as said evidence does not support it, it's mere sour grapes, reflecting far more on its originator than on its target." ] It is interesting that this 'professional' group has so many readers ] who protested Carl's language but apparently had no knowledge of ] Kill Files, or at least less than enough proficiency to implement ] one themselves. "Or, a thousand times more likely, simply chose not to. It's safe and easy to insult people on the Net, but when you try to do so in this manner, you only prove yourself the fool." ] In private EMail, I had an exchange with a person (name omitted to ] protect the brain-dead) who protested Carl's demeanor, but said that ] he _had_ to read Carl's posts in order to get good information. That, ] to me, is the perfect description of a moron. "Carl was probably the greatest single resource in comp.os.vms, as well as being its greatest flamer and liability. That simple fact, however, is apparently beyond you. To dislike Carl's demeanor, but to recognize that by killfiling him, one would lose valuable information, is not the mark of a moron. It is the mark of someone far wiser than you appear to be. "Speaker, by now, would undoubtedly be calling you shit-for-brains. I leave the proof of the nomenclature as an exercise for the reader." ] To those who campaigned to get Carl fired - you will never know if ] your effort contributed to his demise, and you should be thankful ] of that. You remain powerless, assholes. "No-one campaigned to get Carl fired [Speakerphiles, insert a comma and the word 'asshole' here]. People complained about his behavior. There is a real, significant and important difference. When you're able to grasp it, come back and try joining this conversation on an adult level." -- Phil Stracchino Babylon Project System Administrator alaric@babcom.com Creator, alt.support.survivors.prozac The Renaissance Man http://www.babcom.com/jwz/alaric/ NRA, NRA-ILA, NRA-SATF, GOA, GOC, CRPA, CCRKBA, SAF, LEAA, NRAMC-SV Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!usenet ~From: xenon@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 19:24:02 GMT Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club ~Lines: 28 Message-ID: <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, NNTP-Posting-Host: data.club.cc.cmu.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154434 sci.skeptic:203554 alt.callahans:158742 In Article Stafford@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford) writes: >In article <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, beeson@slamaa.ed.ray.com >(Patrick I. Beeson, SUD x3085) wrote: > >> Gee...I didn't like him, but he helpful at times...how horrible! > > And that's to say nothing about the assholes who fired him > and the assholes who campaigned using innuendo to have him fired. > It's about time to name names. Shall I begin? I always read Carl's stuff on sci.skeptic, and was wondering what had happened to him, but yesderday was the first time I saw anything about his death. Is it really known for certain that he was fired? I thought he might have been missing due to illness. If he was fired due to complaints by some net.jackass, I'm going to be really pissed off! As far as I know, nobody on sci.skeptic knows anything about the circumstances of Carl's absence from the net and subsequent death, and I (we?) would appreciate any information (including names). I just read the "speaker" thread over on alt.callahans (a group I didn't know existed before yesterday) but there was not much information other than that Carl was found dead on Friday, cause attributed to "illness". - x p.s. you can probably guess why i always post from a pseudonymous account. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!claudia ~From: claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Followup-To: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 19:53:48 GMT Organization: NowHere ~Lines: 24 Message-ID: <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunster-lab1.student.harvard.edu Cc: xenon@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154439 sci.skeptic:203571 alt.callahans:158747 xenon@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu wrote: : I always read Carl's stuff on sci.skeptic, and was wondering what : had happened to him, but yesderday was the first time I saw anything : about his death. Is it really known for certain that he was fired? : I thought he might have been missing due to illness. If he was fired due to : complaints by some net.jackass, I'm going to be really pissed off! As : far as I know, nobody on sci.skeptic knows anything about the circumstances : of Carl's absence from the net and subsequent death, and I (we?) would : appreciate any information (including names). I just read the : "speaker" thread over on alt.callahans (a group I didn't know : existed before yesterday) but there was not much information other : than that Carl was found dead on Friday, cause attributed to "illness". It is known that a letter was sent to his employers and that he was fired. The cause-and-effect relationship is not known. Check http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm/ -- the author of that page posted about its existence to comp.os.vms (I think) and alt.callahans (I know). Claudia -- "I try never to get involved with my own life. It's too much trouble." -- Michael Garibaldi Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!camilla ~From: Camilla Cracchiolo ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 17:01:02 -0700 Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 ~Lines: 76 Message-ID: <50d83u$55k@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> <50cl5c$o0c@apollo.csd.net> X-Posted-By: camilla@206.165.5.111 (camilla) ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154621 sci.skeptic:204531 alt.callahans:159058 What would be truly ironic is if someone built a conspiracy theory out of Carl's death. :) People with diabetes can die quite suddenly from a couple of causes. The first, of course, is that they can screw up with their insulin and die of hypoglycemia. This is why most diabetics carry some candy with them so they can take it at the first warning signs. Carl always struck me as real on top of his diabetes, so I can't picture him ignoring the signs or forgetting to have a little food or candy around. Especially since he died at home. The other big cause of sudden death in diabetics is heart damage. People with diabetes are much more prone than the general population to thickening and blockage of blood vessels. This is why they have to watch so carefully for infection in the fingers and toes and why so many of them eventually lose body parts to gangrene. This vascular damage extends to the coronary arteries: they can have sudden myocardial infarctions. They can also have sudden disturbances of heart rhythm (not related to myocardial infarction, just to damage of the electrical signalling system in the heart). So they can go into ventricular tachycardia followed quickly by ventricular fibrillation. I suspect this is what happened to Carl. This happened to my landlord a couple of years ago. He'd had well controlled diabetes for years. One day, his heart just did a weird flipflop and he passed out and died. He was only 51. As an aside (for another good man with diabetes who died young): Most people hate their landlords, but I always really liked Frank Segal. This isn't really related to Carl, but I feel Frank deserves some kind of memorialization in cyberspace. Because if not for him, I would have become homeless when I first came down with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and found myself completely unable to work. He let me slide a number of months on my rent until I got my fights with my disability insurance carrier straightened out. Unlike many landlords, he was a decent human being who just couldn't see himself putting a sick person out on the street, rent or no rent. Mark Tarka wrote: : claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) writes: : >xenon@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu wrote: : >: than that Carl was found dead on Friday, cause attributed to "illness". : >It is known that a letter was sent to his employers and that he was : >fired. The cause-and-effect relationship is not known. : Speaking softly...Mark asks..."Is there a way to determine the : circumstances of Speaker's separation from his place of : employment?" : "And..." bowing his head..."for my own sake...has anyone been : able to confirm Yendi's report on Carl's death?" : "I'm...so saddened...." : Mark -- "The trick is to keep an open mind, without it being so open that your brain falls out." Camilla Cracchiolo, RN camilla@primenet.com http://www.primenet.com/~camilla ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Shrine of the Cybernetic Madonna BBS 213-766-1356 Los Angeles * CFS/Fibromyalgia/AIDS support * General medical information * Left-wing Politics * Church of the SubGenius * Skepticism & Science ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.csd.net!ares.csd.net!mark ~From: mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 18:37:32 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <50cl5c$o0c@apollo.csd.net> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ares.csd.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154608 sci.skeptic:204436 alt.callahans:159024 claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) writes: >xenon@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu wrote: >: than that Carl was found dead on Friday, cause attributed to "illness". >It is known that a letter was sent to his employers and that he was >fired. The cause-and-effect relationship is not known. Speaking softly...Mark asks..."Is there a way to determine the circumstances of Speaker's separation from his place of employment?" "And..." bowing his head..."for my own sake...has anyone been able to confirm Yendi's report on Carl's death?" "I'm...so saddened...." Mark Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.csd.net!ares.csd.net!mark ~From: mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 01:55:20 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company ~Lines: 61 Message-ID: <50deq8$qgh@apollo.csd.net> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> <50cl5c$o0c@apollo.csd.net> <50d83u$55k@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ares.csd.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154623 sci.skeptic:204571 alt.callahans:159065 Camilla Cracchiolo writes: >What would be truly ironic is if someone built a conspiracy theory >out of Carl's death. :) Why not? There's the book deals, movie rights, tee-shirts and memorabilia, personal effects from the home of the legend himself. Alt.callahans ought to start-in right now, with wall posters describing how to craft the perfect flame, hung beside Carl's Nomex (fire retardant) suit, and a plastic skull on the bar...with shit for brains. Kidding, jus' kidding :..) Over on comp.os.vms (a technical discussion group for one brand of computer software) where Carl played a large role, a very large role, there were several times lightning struck and started the flames roaring. During the two or three years that I was watching, his foes became more and more pointed in their criticism of his style of delivery. Recent battles, Carl vs the "be nice" faction, focussed upon threats of contacting his employer. I recall a poster from Isreal actually publishing a Caltech address people could use. Carl had a good time skewering the jew (if he was) with a sharply pointed "Nazi" barb, which of course caused the expected reaction amongst those in opposition. There were people who just plain didn't like Carl's style. How many actually complained to higher-ups at Caltech, we'll never know. A conspiracy to get the guy fired? Probably no more of plot than the one that drives the sun to set every single damn day of what has for me become one of the most fascinating times of my life. The irony here, IMHO, is that Carl could deliver the goods better than 90% of the time. All in all, there were probably more complaints about the vendor of the software, then there were about Carl. The only difference...the vendor kicks them in the teeth, without using harsh language. Is..he..dead...? What were the circumstances of the separation from Caltech? Dead. I don't believe it, but I _feel_ it. Fired. Unconscionable. Carl could've made a decision to hang it up and reached an understanding with the boss...or flamed the boy so badly that there were no other options. You'd've thought that somehow the story would've been told. All there is, is the rumor of what sounded like an orchestrated sequence of events intended to totally humiliate him. In a larger sense, this might only be that "plot" regarding the sun...those forces that come together in time and space to bring an end to a day. Those two questions...there're probably a number of people who'd like to hear plausible answers. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I need to talk about it. And now, for questions of a different sort...Camilla...are we drinking here? If so, may I...? Mark ~From: steve@adam.com.au (stephen white) ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~Lines: 27 X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] NNTP-Posting-Host: eden.adam.com.au Message-ID: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> ~Date: 2 Sep 96 03:14:03 GMT Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!munnari.OZ.AU!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.mira.net.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.mel.aone.net.au!eden.adam.com.au!not-for-mail ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154625 sci.skeptic:204590 alt.callahans:159068 Claudia Mastroianni (claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu) wrote: : Check http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm/ -- the author of that page posted : about its existence to comp.os.vms (I think) and alt.callahans (I know). I haven't been involved in this so this is an impartial observation. Carl Lydick was completely correct when he pointed out that dpm was attempting a crude form of emotional blackmail. If dpm was really concerned about the miscarriage, he would have been too depressed to respond to the thread at all. Or posted up a brief note stating his circumstances. Instead, he posted a long counter-response, threw in numerous insults, and THEN posted up his "Har Har, something bad happened to me so you can't get me back!" news. How pathetically obvious can it be? Also, if he wished to make a point, he could have written a complaint to Carl's boss as a private matter, rather than flooding the place with 35 crudely composed self-righteous letters with getting-my-own-back insults thrown in for good measure. By the way, my grandmother's dog died 19 hours ago so any angry response to this message will be politically incorrect, shit-for-brains. -- steve@adam.com.au Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinex.com!news1.isp.net!news.kjsl.com!news.new-york.net!actcom!ilnews.iil.intel.com!pauls ~From: Uri Raz ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 10:44:38 GMT Organization: Intel Corp. ~Lines: 48 Message-ID: <50edqm$ksi@ilx018.iil.intel.com> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ilx225.iil.intel.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; AIX 2) X-URL: news:504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154687 sci.skeptic:204997 alt.callahans:159138 xenon (the anonymous) wrote: > John J. Stafford wrote : >> Patrick I. Beeson wrote: >> >>> Gee...I didn't like him, but he helpful at times...how horrible! >> >> And that's to say nothing about the assholes who fired him >> and the assholes who campaigned using innuendo to have him fired. >> It's about time to name names. Shall I begin? >> The assholes who campaigned against him probably didnt know about his medical condition, and he was VERY insultive at times (I recall him once insulting someone who, in a thread he started, said his wife had an abortion, in a VERY LOW way). If that person complained against Carl, I fully understand him. As for his employers - firing Carl at the time does entitle them as assholes. > > Is it really known for certain that he was fired? > Some guys around here know, having spoken with his employers. As far as I could gather from the newsgroups, someone sent some of Carl's mails to Carl's employers and complained, and they decided to fire him. > > I thought he might have been missing due to illness. If he was fired due to > complaints by some net.jackass, I'm going to be really pissed off! As > far as I know, nobody on sci.skeptic knows anything about the circumstances > of Carl's absence from the net and subsequent death, and I (we?) would > appreciate any information (including names). I just read the > "speaker" thread over on alt.callahans (a group I didn't know > existed before yesterday) but there was not much information other > than that Carl was found dead on Friday, cause attributed to "illness". > As far as I could gather (and someone has called the police, and got confirmation to Carl's death, and maybe knows the formal reasons), Carl had a serious heart condition, which he didnt take care of (he didnt take surgery or medicine), and died from his heart condition. You could find most, if not all, of the news articles about the subject at http://www.dejanews.com/. Uri Raz. +---------+--------------------+-------+-------+ | Uri Raz | uraz@iil.intel.com | Noir | :-) | | All opinions are mine. Others may share it. | +----------------------------------------------+ Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 00:45:20 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50fv30$mvh@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> <50cl5c$o0c@apollo.csd.net> <50d83u$55k@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154688 sci.skeptic:205012 alt.callahans:159141 camilla... >This happened to my landlord a couple of years ago. He'd had well >controlled diabetes for years. One day, his heart just did a weird >flipflop and he passed out and died. He was only 51. >As an aside (for another good man with diabetes who died young): Most >people hate their landlords, but I always really liked Frank Segal. >This isn't really related to Carl, but I feel Frank deserves some kind of >memorialization in cyberspace. Because if not for him, I would have >become homeless when I first came down with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and >found myself completely unable to work. He let me slide a number of >months on my rent until I got my fights with my disability insurance >carrier straightened out. Unlike many landlords, he was a decent human >being who just couldn't see himself putting a sick person out on the >street, rent or no rent. kitten raises her glad to frank, another good man. -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!news.lvld.hp.com!news ~From: Randy Martens ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:12:53 -0700 Organization: The Vectra at the End of the Universe ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32272F25.4F44@lvld.hp.com> ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hplvlrm1.lvld.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) To: Wayne Johnson Thanks for posting this. I vote it go into the Alt.Callahans archives. I can understand why Carl would have liked this. on a different note ... We just installed a new file server here in MXD. Yeah, it's not a VAX, nor does it run VMS. It's an HP Symmetric Processor PA-RISC machine running on 4 CPUS at 200 MHz. It has 100 gigabytes of hard disk, and will sit on the inside of the firewall handling our News & Mail feeds from now on. All machine at our site have names that start with HPLVL (H.P. Loveland) designations. My workstation is HPLVLRM1, for example. I am pleased to say that HPLVLCARL is now on the air. -- | "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no | | basis for a system of government" ----------- M. Palin | Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.inc.net!news ~From: Ager or Persson ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:51:16 -0600 Organization: Internet Connect, Inc. The Wisconsin ISP 414-476-4266 http://www.inc.net ~Lines: 52 Message-ID: <32271C04.C04@discover-net.net> ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.230.195.79 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I) To: Wayne Johnson ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158936 Wayne Johnson wrote: > > I was greatly saddened to hear of the death of Carl Lydick. > > He showed two personas to the Usenet world. One was his ominous > Speaker to Minerals persona; the other, the helpful answer man. His > true persona I never knew, to my dismay. > > I, like thousands of other morons, have been flamed heartily by Carl; > and though I'm a veteran of many flame wars, I immediately saw the > innate talent of the man, and stood back. > > About a year ago, however, Carl got into it on sci.astro and > alt.science.folklore with a fellow named Robert Roosen, a New Age > "scientific astrologer" and parascience aficiando who somehow got > under Carl's skin. Bob and Carl got into a protracted and > particularly nasty flame fest that lasted for weeks, with other > participants gleefully joining in to toss helpful doses of gasoline > when necessary. > > The situation approached critical mass, when I decided to write a > series of posts involving the main participants. Carl, curmudgeon > though he was, grudgingly admitted his enjoyment of these three posts; > many others, having read his vituperative musings over time, figured > they were straight news reports. I reserve all comment. > > I did not know that Carl had as many fans as he did; I certainly was > one, and remain so. Since he got a kick out of these missives, I will > repost them in these groups, to his memory.... > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [big, reluctant snip] > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Carl's only argument with the above tales was about the treatment of > his boss, the Director of the Palomar Observatory. > > I told him to take that up with Bob Roosen. He agreed that this was > the only reasonable course of action. I was just a witness. > > Bye, Carl. Be at rest. > > Wayne Johnson Wayne! Glad to see you in alt.callahans. You just helped our quasi-Irish wake along considerable; I just laughed my ass off and can't find it anywhere. Don't tell us you've only stopped in to pay tribute to Carl Lydick. Stay awhile, will ya? Beth "I love taquitos, too" Ager Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 12:35:28 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5078p0$hdn@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. [newsgroups trimmed to alt.callahans] On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:46:52 GMT in alt.callahans, Wayne Johnson said: : I was greatly saddened to hear of the death of Carl Lydick. Thank you for sharing with us. [...] : I did not know that Carl had as many fans as he did; I certainly was : one, and remain so. Since he got a kick out of these missives, I will : repost them in these groups, to his memory.... *ROFLMAO* Thank you, thank you. That was brilliant. (Claudia! This is a Best Of Post!) Leslie Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: ciacon@popd.ix.netcom.com (Wayne Johnson) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,alt.folklore.science,sci.astro,sci.skeptic,misc.health.diabetes,comp.os.vms,soc.culture.african.american ~Subject: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:46:52 GMT Organization: CIA Consulting ~Lines: 535 Message-ID: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: whx-ca1-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 30 12:44:38 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158821 alt.folklore.science:35569 sci.astro:141571 sci.skeptic:203768 misc.health.diabetes:43191 comp.os.vms:154488 soc.culture.african.american:240816 I was greatly saddened to hear of the death of Carl Lydick. He showed two personas to the Usenet world. One was his ominous Speaker to Minerals persona; the other, the helpful answer man. His true persona I never knew, to my dismay. I, like thousands of other morons, have been flamed heartily by Carl; and though I'm a veteran of many flame wars, I immediately saw the innate talent of the man, and stood back. About a year ago, however, Carl got into it on sci.astro and alt.science.folklore with a fellow named Robert Roosen, a New Age "scientific astrologer" and parascience aficiando who somehow got under Carl's skin. Bob and Carl got into a protracted and particularly nasty flame fest that lasted for weeks, with other participants gleefully joining in to toss helpful doses of gasoline when necessary. The situation approached critical mass, when I decided to write a series of posts involving the main participants. Carl, curmudgeon though he was, grudgingly admitted his enjoyment of these three posts; many others, having read his vituperative musings over time, figured they were straight news reports. I reserve all comment. I did not know that Carl had as many fans as he did; I certainly was one, and remain so. Since he got a kick out of these missives, I will repost them in these groups, to his memory.... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thought I'd let you all know about my interesting experience. I was coming back from getting my weekly dose of taquitos in downtown L.A. when I decided to take the 210 out from Pasadena. There was Caltech! I dropped off the freeway and got directions to the computer center. "Here to see Carl! Friend of his! Just tell him old CIACON is here to see him," I announced, bluffing like hell to a secretary. "He does VAX for you guys," I added. She gave me a blank look. "Friend?" "Oh, yeah, we go way back," I said. I checked my shirt for stray guacamole, wondering why she stared so oddly. She made a call. Instead of taking me into an office, a guard came and said, "Come with me." We went down an elevator for a long ride. Then some stairs; several flights. I began to get nervous. "Where are we going?" I asked. "You've been cleared. That's all I can say," said the guard. He looked nervous, himself. We heard a distant pounding noise. We came to a steel door. "I don't feed him. This is as far as I go," said the guard. The pounding was louder. We gave each other a look. "Lend me your gun," I said. He shook his head. "I can't. It's in his contract. No visitors with guns and no second visits." He ran back upstairs, taking them three at a time. I slowly opened the door, and saw a computer room littered with busted monitors and keyboards. A large man, wearing a straightjacket, was kicking a computer cabinet. A spool of tape unreeled itself as he kicked. "Stupid bastard! Dumbass! AAARRRGH!" "Carl?" I said, timidly. He spun around, glaring at me with reddened eyes. "And who the fuck are you? Another psychiatrist? Another dummy?" Spittle dripped from his chin. His nose was bleeding. His eyes were like brake lights. "I read your stuff on the Net," I said, stunned at his appearance. It was the first thing I could think of. Then, attempting to placate this monster, I said, "Heh heh, you called me stupid once, about..." "ROOSEN! YOU STUPID, DUMB...ARRGH!" he screamed, and staggered toward me, teeth gnashing. "Gravity! It was about gravity," I gibbered, scared shitless. He stopped. "You're not Roosen?" he said. "No," I answered. He ran to phone that was off the hook on a desk and began screaming into it. "I want Roosen NOW! He stole my telescope! He's DUMB! I know VAX! I know VMS! READ MY CONTRACT!" I noticed belatedly that the phone cord had been yanked from the wall. "Listen, Carl, I came to ask you something," I said. "You aren't a Turing machine or a program, obviously. What do you do all day?" He quoted from his sig. We know it by heart, so I won't repeat it here. "And I work on rebuilding my VAX! I'm almost done! I only need a few more parts! See?" He looked around, proudly, at the total chaos in the room. "I ordered the parts, and they sent them, and I was almost finished, and then...well, the RAM chips...well..." and then his look became terribly sad. I felt real sympathy for this monster. "What happened to the RAM chips, Carl?" "I, I, well...er...I ate 'em," he cried, and stricken with the enormity of his crime, burst into tears. "Jesus," I muttered under my breath. He brightened. "Let's flame some stupid moron," he said suddenly. "You're dumb, you'll like this!" He scampered like a kid to a darkened corner of the room, where a brand new Pentium machine with a 21" monitor sat. Flawless, save for the blood-covered keyboard. I soon saw why. With his hands bound by the straightjacket, he typed out his messages with his nose. "Here's one, guy says VAX is outmoded. I'll type YOU STUPID MORON," and he carefully and softly typed this out, until he saw the author. "Roosen. ROOSEN! THAT IDIOT!" He began banging away, harder and harder, hurling his face at the keyboard until he looked like Woody Woodpecker on amphetamines. "SNOOPIT BNASTARD! I'LL TELL YOU ABOUT..." I carefully backed away, and out of the room, quietly shutting the door behind me. I didn't stop to check the lock. A gazelle could not have caught me as I went up the stairs. As I passed the office on the way out, I had to stop and talk to the secretary. "How long has he been down there like that?" I asked. She thought it over. "Hmmmm...since lunch," she said. "What! You mean, he's not a prisoner?" I gasped. "He's wearing a straightjacket! There's an armed guard!" "Oh no," she said, "he's got a contract that goes until 2010 for the VAX, but we don't use that stupid old thing anymore. He just orders spare parts and writes software nobody uses. He just likes the straightjacket, I guess, cause he wears it every day - but he's always on time!" She gave me a bright smile. "But what about the guard? Why the guard?" I had to know. "Well, you said he's your friend. Don't you know how many people want to kill him?" she asked. I thought it over. "No," I admitted, "I really don't. He subscribes to more newsgroups than I do." `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` (With apologies to T.H. White) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After my harrowing experience visiting Carl Lydick, I decided to drop by Robert Roosen's place to tell him of the danger he was in. When I got there, I saw a huge, tumbledown house in the Los Angeles foothills, surrounded by a SWAT team. A detective with a bullhorn was trying to outshout speakers from inside, playing "Age of Aquarius" at an ear-splitting volume. I recognized the cop as Lt. Mark Vermyn, a taquito-eating buddy of mine from downtown. "Yo Mark, what's up?" I asked. "Got a kidnapping here. Got any taquitos?" I snatched a styrofoam box of our favorite delicacy out of my car. "Still hot! No napkins, though," I said. He was already eating. A nearby sniper looked envious. "Look, we can't get in," said Vermyn. "He's got a the victim locked down somehow and we're in a jam." He looked wistful. "If there were some nig-" he looked at me, and changed the word, "colored guys in there, we'd just blow 'em all away and blame the coons - I mean, the spoo-" he struggled for a word. "Darkies?" I tried. "I haven't used that word in ten years!" said Vermyn, looking shocked. He took another bite of taquito. "Anyway, it would be easy - hell, it's department policy ever since Patty Hearst." "Look, let me try. I know this guy," I said. "You wouldn't blow me away, would you?" "OK. Five minutes. But remember, you're black, so we have reason to shoot, now, and plant evidence later, got that?" "Got it!" I said, and walked to the door and knocked. The music was overpowering. The door opened a crack, and the tip of a double barreled shotgun emerged. "Izzat you, Lydick?" growled someone. "Johnson! Wayne Johnson! Jesus," I yelled. He let me in. "Why are you worried about Lydick? That's the SWAT team out there!" I yelled. "Ever meet Lydick?" asked Roosen. I admitted he had a point. He invited me to sit down, and yelled for someone to bring coffee. The room was gloomy and dank. I noticed that there was a large, bent up brass telescope with PROPERTY OF CARL LYDICK embossed on the side, poking out of a broken window pane. "Just because we're unorthodox, everybody's out to get us," he said. "It's the same with the paranoid," I agreed, "but that's what I wanted to ask you about. Are you really a qualified scientist?" I grew alarmed as his face clouded up. He jumped to his feet, and fired the shotgun straight through the ceiling. "Qualifications? I got your qualifications right here!" he yelled, and unzipped his pants, reached in, and pulled out a folded, brown piece of paper. "Read this!" he ordered. I unfolded it. "Wal-Mart," I read, "Recycle this bag." "Turn it over!" In crayon was written the following: ROBERT ROOSEN, BS, MS, PHD, A.F.U., AA, AKC, BUT NOT SCI.ASTRO "Is this it?" I asked. "Took me hours to write that," he said. "See? The green crayon broke on SCI.ASTRO and I had to finish it in purple." Just then a gorgeous woman with the largest bustline I've ever seen walked into the room, carrying a tray with two cups. To my amazement, each breast actually floated upward inside her blouse, like balloons. I accepted a cup. "Cream?" she asked in a voice like Donald Duck. I nodded, and she began to undo her blouse. "All natural!" beamed Bob. "Uh, never mind!" I said hastily. She left, and I said, "What's with her?" "We used helium instead of silicone for her enhancement. Very non-traditional, of course...and she needs a refill every six hours, and talks like a duck, but the benefits - " "Of course, Doctor Roosen, but do you have any other qualifications?" "Well, I attended Camarillo State!" he said, proudly. "Camarillo State Mental Hospital?" I asked, incredulous. "The top man there had to confess that I had more going on in here-" he tapped his head - "than all those other doctors could EVER figure out!" he shouted. "Come see my latest experiment!" We walked into an empty room, where in the center, a bowling ball hung from a steel chain. "Telepaths in China have been exerting tremendous force on this sphere for four years," he said. "Not once has it veered in any other direction. Rock solid proof of telekinesis, wouldn't you say?" he smiled. "It's just gravity, Doctor, not telekinesis," I said. "Prove it!" glowered Roosen, fingering the shotgun. "Maybe later," I said. We went on to the next room, where I was shocked to see a distinguished looking gentleman strapped to a chair. Next to him was a table; on the table, a large black kitchen skillet; against the wall, a chalkboard. "Our operatives caught this fellow sneaking around the Palomar observatory, so we brought him here." "I'm the Director of the Observatory!" shouted the man. "We know," said Roosen. "But you don't believe that the stars influence our daily lives. We're going to prove different." He picked up the skillet and whacked the man on the head. "See stars?" "Wha huh yeah," said the man. "You see, the stars do affect the way we act, don't they? DON'T THEY! DON"T YOU SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY?" screamed Roosen. He raised the skillet to whack the man again, but right then we heard the doors bursting open. "They're coming in! I've got to do something!" Roosen yelled, and scampered from the room. I immediately unstrapped the man, and half carried, half dragged him towards the door. "We've got to get you out of here. SWAT's coming in," I said, but the man protested. He struggled from my grasp, and staggered towards the chalkboard. "Get me to the chalkboard. We've got to debunk him, right now," he slurred. "Nothing else matters..." I hate to say it, but I had to clip him one and carry him out; there is simply no other way to deal with astrophysicists when they get chalkboard lust. I got him and myself out a side window, and carried him back to Lt. Vermyn's car. "Here's your kidnap victim," I said, dumping the astronomer across his hood. SWAT was busy blowing holes in the house. "That's not him," said Vermyn. Just then, a man dressed as a clown clambered out of a basement window and ran to the car. "That's him," said Vermyn. At the same time, we saw Roosen and his pneumatic assistant on the roof of the house. She stripped off her top, and began to float away; Roosen grabbed her ankles and was rapidly lifted skyward, laughing like a maniac. "Damn!" said the clown. "They hired me to do a kid's birthday party, and then when I got here, they took my helium cylinder and locked me in the basement. I had to fill up old gasbags there every few hours cause the doctor couldn't figure out the valves." "Well, the perp got away, but we saved the victim," said Vermyn. "They only fed me granola. It's got me plugged up bad," complained the clown. "Have a taquito," I offered, as SWAT continued to blaze away in the background. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel that it's necessary to report the the newsgroups about the latest series of events surrounding the Carl Lydick/Robert Roosen situation. Things have gotten worse. Since SWAT had totally leveled Roosen's house, and Lt. Mark Vermyn and the clown had eaten all my taquitos, I decided to leave. As I drove away from the smoking wreckage, I got a call on my cellular phone. The voice was frantic. "CIACON? This is the President of CalTech. Lydick's taken control. He'll only talk to you!" "What? Who? Huh?" I'm always ready for the unexpected. "Lydick! Somehow, he got the VAX online, and it's controlling everything! Now we..." the connection faded, and then I heard a robotic voice repeating "MORON. MORON. MORON..." I stepped on the gas and got to CalTech in a few minutes, only to behold a hideous sight. Although it was daytime, the lights in the buildings were flashing on and off. I saw physicists grappling on the lawn, locked in tooth and nail struggles for pocket calculators. It was horrible. Suddenly a caravan of police cars escorting a large truck with "Bob's Slide Rules" painted on the sides pulled in front of the Physics building. Before they could come to a stop, a horde of people rushed out, turned over the truck, and began looting it, screaming and ripping open boxes of slide rules. The few cops who got too close were quickly mauled. Some of the mathematicians didn't even try to get away; they just sat down and began doing functions, right in front of everyone. I turned away, retching. My God, I thought. The computers must be on the fritz ...and they haven't used the chalkboards in years...they must be out of chalk. If they act this way for slide rules...what will happen when the chalk truck arrives? I hurried to the administration building and walked into the President's office. "I never thought this could happen," he said. "Lydick is the worst programmer we've ever seen!" "It started right after I got a call from the Director of Palomar," he continued, "and he couldn't even talk straight. Drunk as a skunk. I fired him," said the President. "Oh no," I said, and told him about Roosen's experiment and why the Director's speech was slurred. "Nonsense. I've known him since grad school; drinks like a fish. A wonder that he felt the skillet at all. Oh well, I'll reinstate him," he relented. "It's Lydick I'm worried about. He's always been crazy, but this has gone too far!" "Then why did you give him a contract until 2010?" "He's my son-in-law!" shouted the President. "Everything was fine, until somebody ripped off his dime-store telescope! Then he went crazy! Some nonsense about a Doctor Rooster," he said. "Roosen," I muttered. "Whatever. He went nuts. Ordered all kinds of RAM chips. And picante sauce. Who needs RAM chips and picante sauce? Come look at this," and he hurried out of his office. "Hold all calls!" he yelled at the secretary. "Bleagh bumbl neagl, Duuuh," she answered. Her eyes were crossed. The president walked over and slapped her, hard. "Thanks, sir," she said, groggily. "Lydick's made us log in with 'I'M A MORON', typed fifty times," he growled. "That's what happens. The whole staff's gone goofy. Now watch this." He put a bagel in a microwave next to the secretary's desk, set it for five minutes, and pressed Start. The display flashed, YOU'RE STUPID, the microwave suddenly whined, and the bagel burst into flames. "How the hell did he do that?" challenged the President. "Every toilet in the building won't stop flushing. The vice president of the college has been on an elevator ride for two hours! I can smell the puke from the hallway," he said, disgusted. "Let's go see Carl," I said, grimacing. On the way over, we saw an old man stop a young student who had been looting the truck. He pointed skyward; when the young man looked up, the old guy popped the kid with a solid left hook. The student went down like a sack of mud. The old man frisked the kid, taking a pocket calculator and a looted slide rule. He staggered off, mumbling gleefully to himself. "Old fart moves like Holyfield," I noticed. "Nobel prize winner," said the President, shaking his head. "Must have been in physics." "How did you know?" asked the President, surprised. Quickly changing the subject, I told the President why I thought the riot started. "Nonsense. We have plenty of chalk," he said. "If I ever let this place run out of chalk, they'd lynch me. Happened to my predecessor," he added, musing. "No," he continued, "Lydick went around and stole all the chalkboard erasers! Fifteen minutes," he shook his head, "and every board was full. That's when all hell broke loose!" We hurried over to the computer science building, and rushed to Lydick's underground lair. We found Carl standing on an immense pile of blackboard erasers. He looked worse than ever. Picante sauce was all over his straightjacket; RAM chips clung to his beard. Worst of all, the VAX was up and running, somehow wired to his Pentium. A deep hum of power filled the room. "I guess you morons have come to beg for mercy. Forget it!" he screamed. "Right now I'm spamming the Net. Soon I'll have ALL you idiots under my control! No more flaming me for my brilliant SIG!" he crowed. "Carl!" I said. "There's got to be a better way!" "What way? No fool, even you, could come up with a better idea than mine!" I thought fast. "A conference! You can present a paper, to all the dummies, and they'll HAVE to look up to you and give you the respect you deserve! That will teach ALL of us that VAX and VMS are the Wave of the Future!" We waited as he thought it over. I put more cheese in the trap. "We'll title it: Science Versus Common Sense: Battle of the Morons!" A faint smile creased his face, but he still hesitated. I played my hole card. "Roosen won't be able to stay away...." "Yes! But they'll all have to admit to being morons," he said, bargaining. "What, with Rusty Rae Sheila and Dr. Jai Maharaj there?" I said. "Let ALONE Darin Johnson." "O.K. But they must admit to the superiority of VAX and VMS!" "You'll win 'em over with charm, if nothing else," I said. "I take it that's a yes?" asked the President. He eyed the pile of erasers wistfully. "Don't press our luck," I muttered. We hurried back upstairs. The cops were just staggering to their feet. "Can't use these wimps for security. I'd better call Vermyn and his SWAT crew," I said. "But who will moderate? Everybody here has gone crazy, but they won't take this job," said the President. "Let me handle it," I said. "I know where I can find lots of people crazier than this." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carl's only argument with the above tales was about the treatment of his boss, the Director of the Palomar Observatory. I told him to take that up with Bob Roosen. He agreed that this was the only reasonable course of action. I was just a witness. Bye, Carl. Be at rest. Wayne Johnson ciacon@ix.netcom.com (On a Usenet troll): It is said that each person has a purpose in life. His is to show that things are never perfect. ....DCI Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!wariat.org!kf8nh.apk.net!news ~From: bsa@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 18:34:22 -0400 Organization: Brandon's home server in Parma, Ohio ~Lines: 14 Message-ID: <507q9e$eia@kf8nh.apk.net> ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <32271C04.C04@discover-net.net> <507c6m$39c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kf8nh.apk.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159035 Also sprach ciacon@popd.ix.netcom.com (Wayne Johnson) (<507c6m$39c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>): +----- | Sure...I gotta figure out the protocol around here, but seems like one | heck of a crowd... +--->8 Protocol, what protocol? Some people choose to immerse themselves in the imagery, others of us prefer to strip away some of the imagery we use elsewhere in the 'Net (I tend to be less restrained in alt.callahans than in other newsgroups; most of the others I subscribe to are technical groups). -- ++brandon s. allbery flying with merlin! bsa@kf8nh.apk.net telotech's "loup-guru" :-) FORZA CREW! bsa@telotech.com Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!zdc-e!super.zippo.com!zdc!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: ciacon@popd.ix.netcom.com (Wayne Johnson) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:36:19 GMT Organization: CIA Consulting ~Lines: 91 Message-ID: <507c6m$39c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <32271C04.C04@discover-net.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: whx-ca5-12.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 30 1:33:58 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Ager or Persson wrote: >Wayne! Glad to see you in alt.callahans. You just helped our >quasi-Irish wake along considerable; I just laughed my ass off and can't >find it anywhere. Don't tell us you've only stopped in to pay tribute >to Carl Lydick. Stay awhile, will ya? >Beth "I love taquitos, too" Ager Sure...I gotta figure out the protocol around here, but seems like one heck of a crowd... No wonder Carl liked it so much. Of course, he was certifiable. Many discussions over time dealt with his sanity; I did my own research, and though Carl knew of it, he did not object. At one point, it was seriously considered that Carl was a crazed mutant that had somehow escaped from a secret government lab. Following is a response to one of Roosen's posts on the subject: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >WAYNE JOHNSON (ciacon@ix.netcom.com) wrote: > >: If you know for sure that he's been captured, let me know; it will >be a relief to sleep with both eyes closed tonight, for a change. > >Roosen responded: >He was obviously born into captivity. Anyone who has spent much time >in the field can tell that without a cage and walls to bang against, >Carl would fall off the edge of his own personal universe and have >that psychotic episode he is threatening so many others with. >PS To understand Lydick's Disease better, watch the video Strozeck by >Werner Herzog. The dancing chicken is played by none other than Carl >Lydick. Wayne followed up with: I hate to say it, but you've been misinformed. The subspecies Carl Lydick (Insultus Everydamndayus) has never been successfully bred in captivity. Every specimen captured has within minutes gnawed its way out of the cage, or picked the lock, and left insulting notes about the keepers personal habits and low intelligence behind, written with its own feces. In addition, what we call psychosis is just natural behavior for the typical Carl Lydick; in fact, the scientist that "proved" that all Carl Lydicks were infected with rabies at birth was thoroughly debunked, with the research paper (Title: You're a Fucking Moron, published in Nature, Volume 173, May 1992, pp 117-161) proving it somehow magically printed on his VAX terminal. The man was broken; he's now a janitor at a small community hospital. All efforts to exterminate Carl Lydicks have been put on hold, anyway. It's been found that in areas infested with them, there are no rats, roaches, or rattlesnakes to be found. It's assumed that the Carl Lydicks dine on these species exclusively, and very aggressively. The species is protected. My own research shows that a Carl Lydick will actually leap over a plate of hot taquitos to eat a live rat. I saw this happen once, and assumed that the Carl Lydick was therefore unintelligent; it wasn't until I reached for the guacamole sauce and realized that it was gone, that I finally understood how clever and vicious this subspecies can actually be. Don't underestimate it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carl never denied the "lab escapee" theory; I find this interesting, as he was quite the stickler for scientific accuracy. Although he promptly flamed me, it was over the "Why is the sky blue, daddy" controversy, not my research into his love of rattus norvigicus con guacamole. Curious, don't you think? Wayne Johnson ciacon@ix.netcom.com (On a Usenet troll): It is said that each person has a purpose in life. His is to show that things are never perfect. ....DCI Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 19:34:20 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 16 Message-ID: <507fns$33i@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <32271C04.C04@discover-net.net> <507c6m$39c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159007 >>to Carl Lydick. Stay awhile, will ya? >>Beth "I love taquitos, too" Ager wayne: >Sure...I gotta figure out the protocol around here, but seems like one >heck of a crowd... >No wonder Carl liked it so much. Of course, he was certifiable. kitten bursts into systerical laughter, scaring her co-workers. -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,alt.folklore.science,sci.astro,sci.skeptic,misc.health.diabetes,comp.os.vms,soc.culture.african.american ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 05:21:47 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5093nr$7h8@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <3227f726.4813843@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158893 alt.folklore.science:35595 sci.astro:141710 sci.skeptic:204080 misc.health.diabetes:43268 comp.os.vms:154564 soc.culture.african.american:241018 On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 09:14:46 GMT in comp.os.vms, J.j. Varley said: : : These alt.callahans people are nuts. They're like a newsgroup of MUDders. "Except we aren't playing D&D here in a.c., you know. Callahan's Place is the creation of the SF writer Spider Robinson. It seemed like a really great place to be, in fiction, so some people decided to create their own version of the Place in virtual reality. "If you don't read science fiction, you probably wouldn't understand. "For more info on alt.callahans and Callahans, see the FAQs and other related links on my webpage." Leslie. He probably wouldn't understand about the slugs, either. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!enews.sgi.com!ames!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 07:02:20 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 60 Message-ID: <5099kc$anq@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <32271C04.C04@discover-net.net> <507c6m$39c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:36:19 GMT in alt.callahans, Wayne Johnson said: : : Sure...I gotta figure out the protocol around here, but seems like one : heck of a crowd... "Well, check out the FAQs, read some threads. Basically you can post in whatever style you're most comfortable with, whether it's Usenet. basic style, or third-person narration," Leslie explains. "Third- person is very useful for putting in gestures and facial expressions and tone of voice to convey a sense of body-language and subtext that the more ordinary style can't get across, though." : No wonder Carl liked it so much. Of course, he was certifiable. "He reminded me of Wonko the Sane, actually." : Many discussions over time dealt with his sanity; I did my own : research, and though Carl knew of it, he did not object. At one : point, it was seriously considered that Carl was a crazed mutant that : had somehow escaped from a secret government lab. Following is a : response to one of Roosen's posts on the subject: "This is at least more entertaining than Mickey over in m.h.d., who claimed that StM wasn't really diabetic, but was only posing as an expert to bolster his ego." [story deleted. snicker.] : Carl never denied the "lab escapee" theory; I find this interesting, : as he was quite the stickler for scientific accuracy. Although he : promptly flamed me, it was over the "Why is the sky blue, daddy" : controversy, not my research into his love of rattus norvigicus con : guacamole. : : Curious, don't you think? "He could perhaps have been wary of challenging you to produce 'proof' of your claims, since all you'd have to do would be to point out that there were no rats in his building, and where did they go to, hmm? He'd have no answer to that one. "That, or he had a sense of humor about himself, which he did. In fact, realizing that was the first thing that told me there was more to him than met the ear..." "It's a damn shame you missed the slug thread, Wayne. StM painted quite an, um, graphic picture of skiing down the slug-covered slope of an exploding volcano..." Leslie turns slightly green just remembering *that* one. Leslie --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,alt.folklore.science,sci.astro,sci.skeptic,misc.health.diabetes,comp.os.vms,soc.culture.african.american ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:30:01 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3227f726.4813843@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co5-24.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 31 3:30:46 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158885 alt.folklore.science:35592 sci.astro:141704 sci.skeptic:204073 misc.health.diabetes:43266 comp.os.vms:154559 soc.culture.african.american:241007 The Ever-so-wise ciacon@popd.ix.netcom.com (Wayne Johnson) once said: ->I did not know that Carl had as many fans as he did; I certainly was ->one, and remain so. Since he got a kick out of these missives, I will ->repost them in these groups, to his memory.... -> Thank you for that, and welcome to Callahans. If you haven't figured things out yet, let me buy you a drink, then, sit back and watch the going's on for a while. I'm sure many here will be willing to help, if you ask. Harker places a dollar on the counter for Wayne's next drink, and points to the back wall (the one without a mirror) and the words written there: "Shared pain is lessened; Shared joy is increased" John Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,alt.folklore.science,sci.astro,sci.skeptic,misc.health.diabetes,comp.os.vms,soc.culture.african.american Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!jvarley ~From: jvarley@netcom.com (J.j. Varley) ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <3227f726.4813843@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 09:14:46 GMT ~Lines: 17 ~Sender: jvarley@netcom16.netcom.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158889 alt.folklore.science:35594 sci.astro:141705 sci.skeptic:204074 misc.health.diabetes:43267 comp.os.vms:154561 soc.culture.african.american:241009 harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) writes: >The Ever-so-wise ciacon@popd.ix.netcom.com (Wayne Johnson) once >said: >->I did not know that Carl had as many fans as he did; I certainly was >->one, and remain so. Since he got a kick out of these missives, I will >->repost them in these groups, to his memory.... >-> > Thank you for that, and welcome to Callahans. These alt.callahans people are nuts. They're like a newsgroup of MUDders. -- -- J.j. Varley | jvarley@netcom.com | San Diego, CA "He has two consuming ambitions, never achieved: to overthrow the government and to get his trousers mended." Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!szdc!news ~From: jvinson@rmci.net (John W. Vinson) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,alt.folklore.science,sci.astro,sci.skeptic,misc.health.diabetes,comp.os.vms,soc.culture.african.american ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 23:50:44 GMT Organization: Wysard of Information ~Lines: 8 Message-ID: <3228c992.8817384@news.rmci.net> ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <3227f726.4813843@nntp.ix.netcom.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158965 alt.folklore.science:35626 sci.astro:141824 sci.skeptic:204324 misc.health.diabetes:43322 comp.os.vms:154594 soc.culture.african.american:241253 jvarley@netcom.com (J.j. Varley) wrote: >These alt.callahans people are nuts. They're like a newsgroup of MUDders. "Yeah, you got us pegged pretty well. Some of us anyway." replies John the Wysard. "May I offer you a drink? Or a backrub?" Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp.crl.com!usenet ~From: briancat@a.crl.com (-Lurch-) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,alt.folklore.science,sci.astro,sci.skeptic,misc.health.diabetes,comp.os.vms,soc.culture.african.american ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 02:32:23 GMT Organization: none - anyone seen my other sock? ~Lines: 27 Message-ID: <50ash4$hfn@nntp.crl.com> ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <3227f726.4813843@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <5093nr$7h8@pentagon.io.com> ~Reply-To: briancat@a.crl.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a127018.dca1.as.crl.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158945 alt.folklore.science:35618 sci.astro:141789 sci.skeptic:204252 misc.health.diabetes:43304 comp.os.vms:154584 soc.culture.african.american:241197 In alt.callahans, leslie@io.com (Leslie) burst forth, saying: >=>On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 09:14:46 GMT in comp.os.vms, >=>J.j. Varley said: >=>: >=>: These alt.callahans people are nuts. They're like a newsgroup of MUDders. >=>"Except we aren't playing D&D here in a.c., you know. Callahan's Place >=>is the creation of the SF writer Spider Robinson. It seemed like a >=>really great place to be, in fiction, so some people decided to >=>create their own version of the Place in virtual reality. >=>"If you don't read science fiction, you probably wouldn't understand. >=>"For more info on alt.callahans and Callahans, see the FAQs and other >=>related links on my webpage." >=>Leslie. He probably wouldn't understand about the slugs, either. "Probably wouldn't find skiing on them fun either!" ************************************** *Brian Catlin * Pardon me, * *briancat@a.crl.com * My Typo * *HWG List Guide Manager * is showing * ************************************** Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.csd.net!ares.csd.net!mark ~From: mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 04:28:28 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <50b3dc$i2s@apollo.csd.net> ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <32271C04.C04@discover-net.net> <507c6m$39c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <5099kc$anq@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ares.csd.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159005 leslie@io.com (Leslie) writes: >On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:36:19 GMT in alt.callahans, >Wayne Johnson said: [Snip...] >: No wonder Carl liked it so much. Of course, he was certifiable. >"He reminded me of Wonko the Sane, actually." Stumbling over to the bar, Mark says "Mike, here's a c-note for Leslie's war-chest. Gotta run...fires to put out, y' know." And with a smile.... Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 14:28:22 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <50co4m$cof@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159104 >the only reasonable course of action. I was just a witness. > >Bye, Carl. Be at rest. > >Wayne Johnson ciacon@ix.netcom.com Thanks Wayne, it was great ! I laughed so hard my sides hurt. But then, if RAH could use brown wrapping paper and a pencil for the course calculations for 'Rocketship to the Moon' so could the physicists at Cal Tech... :-) DJ of alt.callahans. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!panix!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 14:56:12 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50cpos$r01@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <3227f726.4813843@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <5093nr$7h8@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159110 [apparently I can only post to _one_ of the newsgroups in the list.] >Leslie. He probably wouldn't understand about the slugs, either. Over hill, over Dale, As we ski down the slug covered trail ! Rutabagas to the Left of Me ! Rutabagas to the right of Me ! I'm just glad Rutabagas don't fly ! And its a hi hi heee on the Usenet Trail ! Dis monkey-boy eats his vegetables, And he aint no telepath ! No sireeeee ! Da telepath-eee is no life for meeee ! [ I would go one, but I'm starting to become comprehensible...] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ " Who is DJ talking to, and how does he make his voice do that ?" Linda. DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!max.tiac.net!cmarie ~From: cmarie@max.tiac.net (Claudia Marie ) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,alt.folklore.science,sci.astro,sci.skeptic,misc.health.diabetes,comp.os.vms,soc.culture.african.american ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: 3 Sep 96 00:56:05 GMT Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <3227f726.4813843@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <5093nr$7h8@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159143 alt.folklore.science:35688 sci.astro:142093 sci.skeptic:205023 misc.health.diabetes:43512 comp.os.vms:154689 soc.culture.african.american:241620 leslie@io.com (Leslie) writes: >On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 09:14:46 GMT in comp.os.vms, >J.j. Varley said: >: >: These alt.callahans people are nuts. They're like a newsgroup of MUDders. >"Except we aren't playing D&D here in a.c., you know. Callahan's Place >is the creation of the SF writer Spider Robinson. It seemed like a >really great place to be, in fiction, so some people decided to >create their own version of the Place in virtual reality. "Of course, lots of M*s (muds, mushes, moos, mucks... did I miss any?) aren't about D&D either, but about socializing. Not that far a cry from what we have here... the difference being that the scenery there is in code, and here it's in the collective memory." "I really do have to look up the slugs stuff, though... I wasn't here when it happened." Claudia -- "Not many people think I'm real." -- The Wizard of Speed and Time Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!news.peak.org!news.PEAK.ORG!not-for-mail ~From: kightp@kira.peak.org (Pat Kight) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: r.i.p. carl lydick ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 16:11:43 -0700 Organization: Public Electronic Access to Knowledge,Corvallis,US ~Lines: 42 Message-ID: <50agrf$ga4@kira.peak.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: peak.org ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158966 Jezebel returns from her two-weeks vacation, the scent of heather in her hair and the sound of pipes in her ears, expecting almost anything. Except a wake. "Actually," she confesses, "I did have advance warning. My dear one, who didn't particularly like Carl, called me long-distance to tell me the news, because he knew I'd care. It was hard to explain to my sister why I was crying for the death of someone I'd never met. "I had a lot of time to think that over, on the long plane ride home yesterday: How these fragile connections we make with utter strangers, subject to the whims of electronic chance and quirky 'Net propagation, can still be as deep and personal and *real* as any human connections can ever be. And how, despite the various degrees of intimacy that may grow out of either sort of connection, we still remain essentially solitary and, in some ways, unknowable beings. "I didn't reach any earthshaking conclusions. And every time I started waxing mentally poetical about Carl and what he meant to me ... or speculating about what had happened to him in the weeks since we last heard from him ... I heard this *voice* in my head - the same voice my imagination had given to his written words - telling me to cut the bullshit. "So I will. "I'll just say that I liked Carl, just as he was, and I have every reason to believe he liked me. He certainly never flamed me, or belittled me, or made me feel like an idiot. Even when he was being an ornery s.o.b., he never failed to make me think, to make me challenge my own beliefs and assumptions. He was, in private communication, unerringly helpful - even gentlemanly - to a middle-aged woman learning a new and sometimes confusing technology. More often than you might think, he made me laugh. "I've missed him since June. And I won't forget him." Jezebel sighs, and looks around for kitten and Leslie. Drinks seem to be in order. And maybe a round of hugs. Travel tales can wait till later. --Jezebel kightp@peak.org Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!mr.net!news.ios.com!insync!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: r.i.p. carl lydick ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 23:14:25 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 53 Message-ID: <50b2j1$frt@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <50agrf$ga4@kira.peak.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159012 On 31 Aug 1996 16:11:43 -0700 in alt.callahans, Pat Kight said: : "Actually," she confesses, "I did have advance warning. My dear one, who : didn't particularly like Carl, called me long-distance to tell me the : news, because he knew I'd care. It was hard to explain to my sister why I : was crying for the death of someone I'd never met. "Oh, good, you had some warning. I was worried you'd pop back in and be terribly shocked..." : "I didn't reach any earthshaking conclusions. And every time I started : waxing mentally poetical about Carl and what he meant to me ... or : speculating about what had happened to him in the weeks since we last : heard from him ... I heard this *voice* in my head - the same voice my : imagination had given to his written words - telling me to cut the : bullshit. "Me too. And I was spouting some that I know he'd have called me on the carpet for, too. No one else has mentioned it so far, though..." : "I'll just say that I liked Carl, just as he was, and I have every reason : to believe he liked me. Leslie smiles, then giggles, remembering a certain 'Kiss me, Jez!' episode... : He certainly never flamed me, or belittled me, or : made me feel like an idiot. "Because you didn't *argue* with him, you *listened* to him, and debated things with him in a thoughtful, logical way." : Even when he was being an ornery s.o.b., he : never failed to make me think, to make me challenge my own beliefs and : assumptions. He was, in private communication, unerringly helpful - even : gentlemanly - to a middle-aged woman learning a new and sometimes : confusing technology. More often than you might think, he made me laugh. "Ditto." : "I've missed him since June. And I won't forget him." : : Jezebel sighs, and looks around for kitten and Leslie. Drinks seem to be : in order. And maybe a round of hugs. Travel tales can wait till later. Leslie just flings her arms around Jez's neck, and hugs her tightly, and bursts into tears all over again. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!access4!dpm ~From: dpm@access4.digex.net (David P. Murphy) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Carl Lydick ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 23:16:02 -0400 Organization: Phase of the Moon Software Inc. Alexandria, VA ~Lines: 42 Message-ID: ~References: <1996Aug31.085226.1@eisner> NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158948 the article below was posted by schenkenberg@eisner.decus.org (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) to comp.os.vms, and i have taken it upon myself to dup it into a.c --- it might give the non-vms readers an idea of how some of the vms-only-readers saw carl. *** "VAXMAN" ARTICLE BEGINS *** frank@rover.uchicago.edu (Frank R. Borger) writes: > > IMHO, most of the people who Carl Flamed DESERVED it. Not so fast here. IMHO, Carl was always quick to rush to judgement. Carl once flamed me and called me a UNIX moron for posting a message which, after all of the smoke had cleared, turned out to be a bug in VMS which Carl had never encountered. His language was vile and not appropriate. I flamed him right back without scatology. He didn't bother with me from that point on... I also pointed out errors he'd made on this and another VMS newsgroup and *not once* could he come down off his pedestal and accept the ad- monishment. I'm not hardened by that. It was simply Carl's S.O.P. I admired him for the salient advice he contributed to comp.os.vms and discounted his retorts. Those that know me have often heard me refer to comp.os.vms as carl.os.vms because of his notariety on this newsgroup -- good or bad. The thing I think I'll miss the most about Carl is his .signature! VAXman- For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Revelation) *** "VAXMAN" ARTICLE ENDS *** -- David P. Murphy mailto:murphy@connor.datametrics.com (work) systems programmer mailto:dpm@access.digex.net (personal) http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm COGITO ERGO DISCLAIMUM ftp://ftp.access.digex.net/pub/access/dpm ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!comp.vuw.ac.nz!HERMES!not-for-mail ~From: B.Hamilton@irl.cri.nz (Bruce Hamilton) ~Subject: Carl Lydick - From a passing stranger. Message-ID: <917cc$1767.a9@HERMES> ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 09:47:40 GMT Organization: Industrial Research Limited X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Lines: 109 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159074 The rather staid exterior of this place hides a maelstrom of emotion. I've read three score and ten of the posts concerning Carl, and still feel slightly uncomfortable with the presented perceptions. I arrive from strange land ( sci.environment ) and will not linger, but will try to respect your home away from home as I pass by. Carl was a dinosaur. Noble in the pursuit of facts, thirsty for new knowledge, willing to guide youth ( of whatever age ) who bit through their eggshell with any knowledge he could impart, but he refused to compromise in the face of his perception of vehement and wilful ignorance from careless and lazy posters. Like the dinosaurs, he didn't have the desire or opportunity to change - but, unlike the dinosaurs, he was very perceptive and smart. He was never gracious, in victory or defeat, because the ultimate prize was truth - not his glorification. Carl had an ability to cogently present complex issues with great clarity and forcefulness - many vacuous or poorly-focussed sci.environment threads became informative as posters responded to his challenges. Given the Usenet population of the mid to late 1990s, his posting style was going to become unacceptable to the ever-increasing hordes of sensitive souls who want a kinder, gentler, unreal perception of the world from all their newsgroups. Sentiment from Dylan Thomas (- that strident imperative to his dying mother, Do not go gentle into that good night - Rage! Rage! against the dying of the light ), isn't really appropriate for Carl. The old options were gone, those who wouldn't stand in front of him to slug it out under the original terms of engagement, achieved their objective by appealing about organisational image to faceless management - who didn't know ( or care ), about acceptable Usenet conventions. The rules have changed, he couldn't rage... Maybe the newsgroups are now kinder and gentler - but perhaps more posters lack the integrity to confront vehement, intelligent assessments of their perceptions and thoughts with cohesive arguments, in which case the groups may also contain more noise masquerading as signal. AFAIK, nobody else ever came as close to forcing posters to think about their posts - all the groups he frequented will miss his posts triggered by the Lydick bullshit meter... Carl had learnt a lot, and also given a lot - but the times were changing, and few others were prepared to vigorously challenge posted material they perceived as wrong. Carl *always* challenged what he perceived as junk in sci.environment, and always provided the opportunity for his opponents to demonstrate that his colourful assessment of their ability was wrong. As others have noted, once a indication of competence was displayed, he tended to post less confrontationally, and emailed followups were far more courteous. We traded blows and jokes over the years. It should be made clear that a significant % of his attacks in sci.environment were subsequently discovered to be unjustified, and that his failure to publically apologise or retract some of those severely tarnishes his credibility.. Unfortunately, Carl was dealt from a loaded deck but ( as always ), played the hand the best he could. He only demanded that those who disputed his position should demonstrate that they has actually considered the issue and implications. I don't believe he set onerous standards of knowledge or wisdom, all he required was an indication that posters had thought about their post prior to posting, and provided all the relevant information any helpers would require. I'm sad - not for Carl - like the dinosaurs his allotted time was up, and he stood alone, resolute, forcefully seeking clarity of thought and expression. No one else did that in sci.environment as well as Carl. As with the dinosaurs, history moves on, but is enriched by, and builds upon, what went before. I'm grateful for his posts to sci.environment, they hurt, they amused, they informed and they challenged posters to think. Nobody else will fill those steel-capped boots so well, and yell so loudly... No toasts, plaques, etc. - Carl was here, and also in sci.environment and elsewhere, his posts are his enduring legacy - make of them what you will before diminshing magnetic domains dissipate them forever. They are from another era, and many are from other groups, but it seems that here was where Carl felt most at home, so I thought you might appreciate how others viewed him. Sorry for the intrusion, and the belated post - but news does take a while to get down here - I hope I haven't reawakened painful memories.. Bye, Bruce Hamilton Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.supernet.net!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!noos.hooked.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!news.lvld.hp.com!news ~From: Randy Martens ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Carl Lydick - From a passing stranger. ~Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 13:10:13 -0700 Organization: The Vectra at the End of the Universe ~Lines: 46 Message-ID: <322B3F25.2134@lvld.hp.com> ~References: <917cc$1767.a9@HERMES> NNTP-Posting-Host: hplvlrm1.lvld.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) To: Bruce Hamilton ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159123 Bruce Hamilton wrote: > > The rather staid exterior of this place hides a > maelstrom of emotion. I've read three score and ten > of the posts concerning Carl, and still feel slightly > uncomfortable with the presented perceptions. > > I arrive from strange land ( sci.environment ) and > will not linger, but will try to respect your home > away from home as I pass by. Oh, please linger. All are welcome here, even those from lands stranger than yours! > Carl was a dinosaur. Noble in the pursuit of facts, > thirsty for new knowledge, willing to guide youth > ( of whatever age ) who bit through their eggshell > with any knowledge he could impart, but he refused to > compromise in the face of his perception of vehement > and wilful ignorance from careless and lazy posters. > Like the dinosaurs, he didn't have the desire or > opportunity to change - but, unlike the dinosaurs, > he was very perceptive and smart. > They are from another era, and many are from other > groups, but it seems that here was where Carl felt > most at home, so I thought you might appreciate how > others viewed him. Sorry for the intrusion, and the > belated post - but news does take a while to get > down here - I hope I haven't reawakened painful > memories.. > > Bye, > > Bruce Hamilton Very well said, and many thanks. Please do visit again, you are by no means intruding. As our patron is wont to say, there are no strangers, no intruders here - only friends we haven't met yet. Cheers, Randy -- | "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no | | basis for a system of government" ----------- M. Palin | Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 03:08:24 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: <50e4lo$903@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> <50baus$jps@xanadu.io.com> <50d7sl$199@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159134 On 1 Sep 1996 23:57:09 GMT in alt.callahans, Rachel Meredith Kadel said: [Thanks for the info, Rachel.] : >"Well, sure, low blood sugar can make anyone cranky. That's why he : >specifically gave kitten a 2X4: to whack some sense into him, if : >she caught him not keeping an eye on it." : : Yeah. But he can't possibly have been low the entire time he was on : the net. "Ya, that was sort of my point. And that was one thing I never did figure out how to figure out...how to tell the difference between him flaming out of crankiness related to blood sugar, and him flaming out of reasoned deliberation." Leslie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!panix!news.columbia.edu!news.new-york.net!news.put.com!main.put.com!silence ~From: Rose Platt ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ~Sender: usenet@news.put.com (The Root) Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: main.put.com ~Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 02:17:38 GMT ~Lines: 29 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159156 On Sun, 1 Sep 1996, Michael D. Bartman wrote: > A rose by any other name would still prick your finger. Silence winces. Shadow looks slightly bemused. Rose glares at her various personae and tells them not to take things so personally. *) "I'm sorry, Berek... this thread isn't the only one you came in in the middle of. There's an ongoing discussion about the legitimacy of me using different names, as well as one about me pricking various fingers; I think you just happened to mix metaphors at a particularly interesting time. Perhaps I shouldn't have brought it up at all--but I couldn't help noticing. "To be absolutely clear: My name is Rose. Silence and Shadow are my current characters, and usually they make more posts here than I do; lately I've had to set them aside and answer a few things in person, but that shouldn't go on for too much longer. If you're not sure who's posting--though it's usually clear from the content--look at the bottom of the post and see who signed it. Hope I don't cause any additional confusion!" --Rose, considering a new character named "Skunk Cabbage" to get away from that smells-as-sweet business once and for all "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." --Mark Twain Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.sojourn.com!condor.ic.net!news.cic.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mcsun!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!yama.mcc.ac.uk!news.salford.ac.uk!aber!bath.ac.uk!morse.ukonline.co.uk!usenet ~From: simon@ukonline.co.uk (Simon H Le G Bisson) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 16:25:07 GMT Organization: UK Online Ltd ~Lines: 31 Message-ID: <322b09ae.30134730@news.ukonline.co.uk> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> <32290B71.7EAE@ix.netcom.com> <50ccl6$9ei@news.cais.com> ~Reply-To: simon@ukonline.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: pardalis.ukonline.co.uk X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159145 On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 16:15:23 GMT, mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) wrote: >"The real answer? VMS was engineered, Unix 'jess growed'. Given the >differences in origin it isn't too surprising that Unix ended up a >tangled mess in which you can find nearly any shape you might >want...if you look long and hard enough." Berek smiles at this, >"While VMS is much easier to comprehend and work with quickly, but is >still capable of getting the job done in a reliable way. I see the >two, in botany terms, as a bonsai tree vs. a tangle of brambles. >Which is preferable depends on whether you are a gardener or a >rabbit." The cartoon mouse turned ISP sysadmin grins. "Which is why some of us are brave enough to risk the permanent floating flamewars and express a liking for the engineered UNIXes, like AIX and OSF/1..." The backpack by his feet tips over to reveal a pile of AIX 4.2.5 manuals. "If it's good enough to run a 2.5 million pages a month web site that delivers 3 GB of data a week, then it's good enough for me!" --- Ignatz Mouse is Simon H Le Gros Bisson ---- Simon H Le G Bisson -- simon@ukonline.co.uk Technical Manager, UK Online Ltd http://www.ukonline.co.uk/ Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 01:48:07 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 36 Message-ID: <50g2on$pvt@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159147 comp.os.vms:154694 >Berek pauses for a moment, as if looking back over a big span of years, >then says, "I've heard about some of your customs here, and now that I've >introduced myself, and said most of what I came to say about Carl to some >folks who obviously were affected by him as well, for better or worse, I >think..." He steps over to the bar, the floor giving slightly under his >larger than average mass, and produces a few gold coins of primitive >appearance. They clink quietly as he sets them on the bar. "Mike? A >double Tullemore Dew please?" >Mike sets up the whiskey, and Berek takes it and moves as carefully as >possible to the firing line, weaving between patrons and minding his elbows >so as not to brain anyone along the way. He stops, the toes of his...fur >boots?...sneakers?...vacuum armor??...positioned exactly at the designated >spot. He raises his glass high, stopping just clear of the feet of the >rafter-sitters. >"Carl, I doubt you had any more idea of *all* of the side effects your >words had on others than any of the rest of us do, but I thank you for the >help you gave, forgive you the trouble you caused, and hope that you are >happy wherever you are. I hope everyone who encountered you will consider >your efforts and learn *something* from your time on this planet. I know I >have and it's not something I'd be likely to learn from anyone less >controversial than you were. THANK YOU FOR BEING CARL LYDICK! NOBODY ELSE >WANTED THE JOB, AND, BOY, WERE YOU GOOD AT IT!!" kitten burst into tears (finally, thank the goddess)..."welcome" she sobs. -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!access4!dpm ~From: dpm@access4.digex.net (David P. Murphy) ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Followup-To: alt.callahans ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 22:29:36 -0400 Organization: Phase of the Moon Software Inc. Alexandria, VA ~Lines: 75 Message-ID: ~References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154699 sci.skeptic:205064 alt.callahans:159158 steve@adam.com.au (stephen white) writes: >Carl Lydick was completely correct when he pointed out that dpm was >attempting a crude form of emotional blackmail. PhaseOfTheMoon shakes his head tiredly, that once again the mere mention of a personal tragedy is considered 'emotional blackmail', while the abusive insults deliberately aimed at newcomers who failed to ask their questions 'properly', with the intent of making them feel so unwelcome that they would not post again, were felt to be morally justifiable. >If dpm was really concerned about the miscarriage, he would have been >too depressed to respond to the thread at all. Or posted up a brief >note stating his circumstances. PhaseOfTheMoon looks up from his pepsi. "and what qualifies you to diagnose me in this manner, mr. white? professional experience? a degree in clinical psychology? your wife miscarried once? your finger reveals no such information, and i can find no home page. "shall i apologize for not handling my grief in some manner acceptable to you? please inform me of the Official List of Approved Grieving Methods, and include the Authorized Timeline of Stepped Behavior (you know the one: so many hours of crying allowed, so many days of sleeplessness, so many weeks of depression, etc.) "why in the world do you make this ridiculous declaration that a 'real' sufferer would not have posted as i did? are you actually so incredibly retarded that you're publicly stating that either my wife did *not* have a miscarriage or i was *not* concerned about it nineteen hours after it happened? try as i might, i can't see any other conclusion to draw from your remark. "if you disagree with me, join the club, you're not alone. and maybe, for the sake of argument, i should not have written that post. but to infer that i was not 'concerned about the miscarriable' is an insult in itself, and a rather stupid one at that." >Instead, he posted a long counter-response, threw in numerous insults, >and THEN posted up his "Har Har, something bad happened to me so you >can't get me back!" news. How pathetically obvious can it be? "apparently it can be quite pathetically misleading, but then, i've seen that people are capable of reading whatever they want from any article or email whatsoever, so i'm certainly not surprised at your analysis." >Also, if he wished to make a point, he could have written a complaint to >Carl's boss as a private matter, rather than flooding the place with 35 >crudely composed self-righteous letters with getting-my-own-back insults >thrown in for good measure. Phase checks the many pockets of his denim jacket, but comes up empty- handed. "and i guess i'll be needing a copy of your 'Officially Sanctioned Method of Complaining to a Usenetter's Boss'. too bad that you didn't make these helpful brochures available to me four months ago! "no one at caltech has complained of 'flooding', so i see no reason to assume that i did anything wrong. nor do i see any reason for you to speak for GPS, to criticize the letter as 'crudely-composed', or to describe anything in that letter as an 'insult'. in fact, please do tell me what is insulting in that letter; i will absolutely stand behind everything i wrote as either provable fact and/or carl's own stated goals. Phase returns to his private conversations with various other patrons, knowing that whiners rarely respond to specific requests. David P. Murphy apologizes to the readers of comp.os.vms and sci.skeptic, assuring them that any continuation of this topic will be kept within the bar. ok dpm -- David P. Murphy mailto:murphy@connor.datametrics.com (work) systems programmer mailto:dpm@access.digex.net (personal) http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm COGITO ERGO DISCLAIMUM ftp://ftp.access.digex.net/pub/access/dpm Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 23:32:15 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 43 Message-ID: <50d6dv$li@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159163 In article <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com>, Looking Wolf wrote: >> >> : "Diabetes can cause mood swings, and even mild personality disorders, as >> : the brain is continually short-changed in its food supply. The second half of this sentence is inaccurate. The brain can use glucose without insulin; therefore, the brain is only starved of glucose during hypoglycemia. It is rare for a diabetic to keep themselves in continual hypoglycemia. >"If the people in these newsgroups were making me that angry, I'd >probably just quit posting to them. My health is more important than >trying to make an idiot see the light, which most of them never will, no >matter how hard you try." > For much of the past year, Carl has been arguing on misc.health.diabetes with a man named Michel Martin or Michel Martin Devine (he has posted under both names. This guy posts (or posted; he's off the air at the moment) very misleading pseudoscientific material about his several hobbyhorse subjects, one of them being supposed dangers of human insulin. He also posted extremely inflammatory material about those who disagreed with him; on the subject of Carl, he got much worse than Carl ever was. Among other things, he repeatedly threatened his life, and made various long-distance diagnoses of mental illness. Leaving Mickey's bullshit, as well as the bullshit posted by various other monomaniacs and snake-oil salesmen to misc.health.diabetes, unchallenged would threaten the health of more than just one person, and in much more tangible ways than simply making them angry. Leaving the newsgroup would have deprived its readers of Carl's genuine expertise (in the vast percentage of cases given in a polite and helpful manner), which helped people in very clear and tangible ways.. So in at least one case, Carl had both good reason to be extremely angry at a continuing flamewar and good reason not to leave the group. Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news1.radix.net!news ~From: cbarnhart@radix.net (Chris Barnhart - (TechnoPup)) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 23:39:28 GMT Organization: Not in my house! ~Lines: 70 Message-ID: <50d6nk$8da@news1.radix.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50a9fd$oc8@pentagon.io.com> <50afos$ibe@news1.radix.net> <50csj5$r6h@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~Reply-To: cbarnhart@radix.net NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin10.annex5.radix.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159161 jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) wrote: >TechnoPup: >[] He never flamed me. I never spoke with him. I observed his >[] interactions with others, found him lacking in the human qualities > Maybe your observing skills need improving... Maybe your debate skills need lacking. If you want to respond to a sentence, at least don't cut the sentence off in the middle. Ah, but then it makes it something you can cut down, doesn't it? Carl *was* indeed lacking in the qualities *I* consider to be important. I defy you to tell me this is an untrue statement. Or do you understand what perspective is... >>Leslie, you digress as you always seem to. I am not claiming Carl > no, she made a point, that _you_ missed. No.. she changed the meaning I put into my post to fit her own meaning, when she then responded to and branched off... >[] right to think Carl was a worthless asshole as you do to think he was >[] some sort of net god, professor or friend. If you re-read your own > Even _i_ don't think he was a god, net or otherwise. So? >[] posts to this thread, any time someone has started out with anything >[] you disagree with, it has been: Ooh... Carl wouldn't have liked that. >[] Carl would have flamed you for that. That's not what Carl would have >[] said. My argument is in response to that. Why are Carl's feelings >[] more important, dead or alive? > Carl would have. If you knew anything about, had _observed_ anything >about him, you would comprehend that Leslie is stating the truth. Define truth for me. Tell me, in any universe not agreed upon by mathemeticians or certain scientists, what *truth* has to do with anything. >[] You almost have a point there. If Carl had feelings for others, >[] great, I'll take your word for it. If you think it is insulting to >[] think that Carl had a Napoleonic complex, so be it. Maybe it is. I > it is insulting because its a _totally_ bogus claim. It's a claim based on my experience of Carl. It also relates to something I said earlier in this post which was relevant. I oberserved certain things about Carl and didn't look any further, didn't *WANT* to look any further. >[] Ask yourself your own question. Why is it someone who didn't like >[] Carl is jumped on by you? Must everyone answer to the great >[] net-goddess Leslie? You have railed against many, defying logic and >[] syntax on several occasions, just to speak for Carl. > bullshit. Gee.... good retort. > But then, you and i probably define the word pattern 'net-goddess' >differently. Oh wow... what a concept. You and I probably define *lots* of things differently. Personal worth, good qualities and many others included. __________________________________________________________________ Chris Barnhart - TechnoPup | "Verbosity leads to unclear, cbarnhart@radix.net | inarticulate things." http://www.radix.net/~cbarnhart | -Dan Quayle ________________________________|_________________________________ Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 23:57:09 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 57 Message-ID: <50d7sl$199@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> <50baus$jps@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159164 In article <50baus$jps@xanadu.io.com>, Leslie wrote: >On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:57:35 -0700 in alt.callahans, >Looking Wolf said: > >: "Of, for crying out loud. At what point did I attack Carl's >: intelligence? Diabetes is very difficult to control, and very >: unpredictable, judging by everything I've ever heard about the >: condition. > >"Then you've obviously not heard very much, I guess. Some people are as >stable as rocks. Others are brittle. Many others are somewhere in >between. Illness can make bg's hard to control, but when in good health, >a person who knows their own body, and who pays attention to what they >eat, tests regularly, and understands how excercise affects them can >maintain very tight control, indeed. Read the group misc.health.diabetes >for more info on the subject, and please don't perpetuate the myth that >it's 'very difficult to control,' because that's definitely *not* >necessarily so. (Right, Rachel?)" > Well, since you ask, the answer is "Depends what you mean by "difficult" and "control"." Certainly, some people can keep themselves between, say, 80 and 180 mg/dl (approx. the normal range for non-diabetics) 95% of the time. However, very few can keep from getting off-track occasionally, and for most diabetics on insulin, keeping in control is not simple. (Either their lives need to be adjusted to their insulin, or their insulin needs to be adjusted to their lives.) Even someone who's meticulous can have a hard-to-control case, with frequent wide swings in bg levels. Even someone who has a generally easy-to-control case *and* is meticulous can have their bgs go haywire, especially if they get sick (say, with the flu) or they get far from their normal routine. There are the lucky ones whose type II will respond to oral meds and/or relatively minor changes in diet. But I would say the larger number of people can't keep their bg's normal all the time, and there are lots of people who have a hard time keeping them normal most of the time. >: "I did not mean he was too stupid to monitor his condition. I just >: meant that diabetes is not yet completely understood (once again, >: judging by my admittedly incomplete knowledge in the field), and >: mood-altering side-effects are well enough known that a retired >: psychologist has heard of them." > >"Well, sure, low blood sugar can make anyone cranky. That's why he >specifically gave kitten a 2X4: to whack some sense into him, if >she caught him not keeping an eye on it." > Yeah. But he can't possibly have been low the entire time he was on the net. Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 00:22:40 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 77 Message-ID: <50d9cg$g5@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <504baj$59q@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <505aor$7ij@kf8nh.apk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159168 In article <505aor$7ij@kf8nh.apk.net>, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote: >Also sprach shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) (<504baj$59q@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>): >+----- >| > Why on earth would a non-Insulin dependent diabetic take >| >shots? I've personally never heard this (although, I'll be the >| >| The classifications "insulin-dependent" and "non-insulin dependent" >| are, indeed, not always the best choice of terms. As of a few >+--->8 > >IDDM occurs when the immune system destroys the Islets of Langerhans, the >organs that produce insulin. A person with IDD *must* take insulin. No >other choice exists (except death). > >NIDDM is when insulin *receptors* are destroyed by the immune system: I've never heard an autoimmune mechanism postulated for NIDDM. The causal mechanisms for the impaired response to insulin (and sometimes impaired early-phase insulin release) are not well-understood. >there >is enough insulin, but the body doesn't respond to it. Correction: the body doesn't respond to it *as it should*. If there was no response to the insulin, none of the current therapies for NIDDM would work at all. >It is sometimes, but >not always, possible to survive without insulin injections; often NIDDM can >be "controlled" by diet. True, but incomplete: treatments for NIDDM include diet, exercise, weight loss, oral medications (which can reduce insulin resistance and/or increase insulin production), and insulin. (There's also lots and lots of snake oil out there). >I don't know the full story on NIDDM, but I do know >that failure to control it sufficiently (which is somewhat common, especially >since NIDDM has become well understood by doctors only relatively recently) >often leads to the victim requiring insulin shots to survive. (IIRC, this >is to insure that there is enough insulin to reach and trigger all the >surviving insulin receptors.) > (1) NIDDM is generally diagnosed fairly late. (2) Requiring insulin is not necessarily due to failure to control it early. Some people don't respond to the medications, or the medications lose their effectiveness over time. Insulin is sometimes simply the best treatment. (3) NIDDM is not "well-understood by doctors", in that its causes are mostly unknown. (4) Not all cases of NIDDM involve a shortage of insulin receptors, afaik. (Actually, I'm not sure if there's a shortage of insulin receptors in any of the common forms of NIDDM. >Anyway, the naming has more to do with whether the body is producing its >own insulin or not: in IDDM it isn't, in NIDDM it is but it can't be used. During the onset of IDDM, when the immune system hasn't finished doing in the beta cells, there's some endogenous insulin production. And (obviously, since insulin injections work as treatment for NIDDM) the insulin *can* be used in NIDDM -- just inefficiently. > >(We need a new local NIDDM expert. Any takers? Or maybe I should do it, >since I should really bone up anyway so I can make sure my boss is taking >care of himself --- he was diagnosed with NIDDM earlier this month. Dammit, >I was going to ask Speaker for tips...) You've got a ways to go. :P Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 00:28:20 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <50d9n4$1hh@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <32263D91.457F@prolog.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159169 In article <32263D91.457F@prolog.net>, Kevin D. Knerr, Sr. wrote: > Carl held rigid definitions of truth, freedom, and choice. (Which >should explain to prior posters why he described himself as a >"non-insulin dependent diabetic who uses insulin". As far as he was >concerned, diabetes did not force him to use insulin--he chose to use >insulin to treat his diabetic condition.) Actually, that's a technical term; another word for the same thing is "insulin-requiring type II". It means someone who has endogenous insulin production, is not experiencing an auto-immune loss of beta cells, and needs insulin injections to control blood glucose levels. Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 04:44:30 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 26 Message-ID: <322a65b8.12504954@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> <50d6dv$li@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co10-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 01 9:45:16 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159201 The Ever-so-wise rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) once said: ->For much of the past year, Carl has been arguing on misc.health.diabetes ->with a man named Michel Martin or Michel Martin Devine (he has posted ->under both names. This guy posts (or posted; he's off the air at the ->moment) very misleading pseudoscientific material about his several ->hobbyhorse subjects, one of them being supposed dangers of human insulin. ->He also posted extremely inflammatory material about those who disagreed ->with him; on the subject of Carl, he got much worse than Carl ever was. ->Among other things, he repeatedly threatened his life, and made various ->long-distance diagnoses of mental illness. I can second this about Mickey. He's the one who told me that his Mother (dead several months at the time, IIRC) was giving him legal advice on how it was Illegal for a company to stop selling a product (Insulin, as it were) I think that thread, combined with several others is the reason I stopped reading misc.health.diabetes. John Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 04:48:08 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 31 Message-ID: <322a668b.12716434@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> <502kj1$gvi@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32265a95.587245023@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co10-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 01 9:48:55 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159200 The Ever-so-wise tjl9@columbia.edu (Tom Lee) once said: Me: ->> It's been a week from hell for me as well. My mother went ->>into the hospital with heart trouble yesterday, and my uncle ->>(mother's side) is having difficulty with a brain tumor. ->> Mom will be fine, Uncle will be fine after his operation in ->>November. ((keep saying it, over and over again)) ->> {Sigh.} -> -> "Well, you have my best wishes that what you say will be true," ->says Tom. "This week has been a tough one for me as well ... here at the ->law school it's 'Profession of Law' week, a one-week intensive course on ->professional responsibility for the third-year students. I have to ->videotape every minute of every class, sometimes in two rooms at once, ->and even show some videos to boot. It's the roughest week of the year. ->Granted, not a tragedy, but it is draining." It did, at least for my mother. The doctors told her they could find no problem at all with her heart, in fact, it may have been the medication she's been taking for the past few years that has kept her feeling bad. She's going to change doctors now, and perhaps get some competant help. John [who's relieved to say the least] Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail ~From: marypcb@aol.com (MaryPCB) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 11:10:16 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) ~Lines: 54 ~Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <50etco$o2m@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Reply-To: marypcb@aol.com (MaryPCB) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159226 Mary MerryTail walks in, still short and round and blonde, with her tail dragging a little. Up to the bar. 'God's Blessing on us Mike. I need it and perhaps the rest of us would care to join. I keep thinking of this, from John Donne, so I went and looked it up. P'rhaps we could pin it on the noticeboard, if it's still here? No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Speaker would be proud, disgusted and hyper-active by turns at all this - just like he always was. Hell, Speaker would be Speaker because nothing changed that. To his own self he was ever true. It was a shame that his self hurt so, but sharp knives tend to do that. I don't know what to say. I *liked Speaker... even when he upset my friends. I miss him. I believe he really didn't understand how much (or even why) he hurt the patrons he hurt - if he was right, you needed to know, right? but I remember him being kind to me. I remember him acknowleding his own folly' MeryTail looks over at the drag marks that Mike still hasn't managed to polish off the floor by the hot tub. 'I *remember him. I don't think I'll ever forget him. I learnt from him, I'm proud to know him and I hope that he is happy, at peace or in the middle of the finest logical discussion he's ever enjoyed. For our sake and for his. Mourning, like celebration, is mostly for the bystanders. but if we can bear witness to the truth in his soul, or pay tribute to what we learnt from him, or heal one misunderstanding here, I think he'd put up with our maudlin sentimentality ;-) Dammit I'll miss you. I thought you'd always be here g'bye Speaker. crash-tinkle' MerryTail shrugs and ties a black ribbon in her tail 'I thought I'd pop back in for a happier cause - to tell you about my new job, or movign to London, or facing change and growing from it. But I feel that soil crumbling today' Mary MerryTail tails and bells and dancing Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!tudelft.nl!petr ~From: petr@duttnxc.tn.tudelft.nl (Peter Kocourek) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 07:43:47 +0200 Organization: Institute of Advanced Chocolate Studies ~Lines: 67 Message-ID: <1996090207434794801@kocourek.tn.tudelft.nl> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kocourek.tn.tudelft.nl X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.1 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159202 [I was cut off from my usual news server for a few days, so I tried to post this from another one. It does not appear to have gotten through, however it may ultimately show up twice. Sorry about that.] barbara trumpinski wrote: > kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called > speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl > was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone > out there can help, please do." > > she raises her glass in a silent toast. qsi enters the Place, which he has never seen before; he had never heard of the Place. It is the passing of the kzin that pointed him in this direction. He tries to fathom the customs of this Place, where Speaker-to-Minerals apparently spent a good deal of time. qsi shifts from shape to shape, and settles on a humanoid form, trying to blend in, unsuccessfully, with the regulars, as he orders a drink, consisting mostly of chocolate, at the bar. The faint *crash* from glasses being shattered at the hearth fills his ears, as well as the silence of the unbroken glasses standing in the fireplace. "I have not argued with StM myself," qsi intones, "whom I have known under his human name Carl Lydick, as I am wont to frequent the more mundane newsgroups. It is there that I observed him. On one occasion, many years ago, he answered a question I had put, in his usual manner, also pointing out the flaws in my question." qsi sips his drink, trying to see whether the Place contains any orange fur. "Speaker-to-Minerals possessed the indomitable kzinti spirit, which many people eagerly used as an excuse to have him be shut up, when what they were really upset about was StM's infuriating habit of being almost always factually accurate, and having a razor-sharp mind. A dangerous combination of qualities to possess, especially among humans." qsi orders another chocolaty drink, with a dash of spirits this time. "I shall truly miss Speaker-to-Minerals, for he was a wise man, with great insight on a staggering array of subjects. He was mercilessly knowledgeable. His kzinti side was counterproductive at times, but I find his knowledge far outweighed that aspect of his persona." qsi shifts briefly to amorphous shape, and back again to the humanoid form. "Carl was the best bullshit-detector on the net. He always fought the good fight against ignorance, prejudice and superstition. I think his deeds in battle warranted at least a partial Name, if not a full one." qsi finishes his drink. "I do not know how to pronounce Speaker-to-Minerals's title in the Hero's Tongue, for I am as of yet unfamiliar with that language." qsi looks around, starts to leave, and clears his throat. "Farewell, warrior." qsi disappears into the depths of the Place, perhaps to linger for a while, perhaps to return later, but always carrying the memory of Speaker-to-Minerals with him. Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!aanews.merit.net!news.mich.com!news ~From: jfd@mich.com ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 14:25:28 GMT Organization: mich.com, Inc., Farmington, Michigan ~Lines: 24 Message-ID: <50eqoo$rkk@news.mich.com> ~References: 50asgu$hfn@nntp.crl.com NNTP-Posting-Host: am001-48.dialip.mich.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159221 On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 briancat said: >This here thread is the best tribute to Carl going. It's got >everything in it now. Somewhere in the middle ar a couple flame >battles ala Carl's heyday. Way to go >StM is still here - the world is upright once again... I agree. I too have suffered Carl's flames, And benefited from his wisdom If there is good in his death. It's that he no longer suffers the raviges of diabetes. And that I have found you folks (Whom I did not know existed) (But when I read "Alt.Callahans" I knew I had to visit here!, Make mine diet Root Beer however please, Like Carl I don't need the carbs, And I don't like the EtOH). (Or Irish coffie, Hold the Irish) (I know, I know) Carl may be gone. But he'll not soon be forgotten. Carl was a true Dragon Slayer. Too bad the dragon got him in the end. `[1;37;44m John F Davis, WA8YXM, In Delightful Detroit, aa122@detroit.freenet.org `[1;33;44m "Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business" `[1;32;42mNet-Tamer V 1.04 - Registered Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 03:45:34 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <50gr7e$ks3@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <577302493.47804709@chatter.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159213 On 02 Sep 1996 08:46:32 GMT in alt.callahans, Bob Gilbert said: : I know Speaker meant much to many many of you and I grieve for you. As : Doone said, (paraphase) 'the death of anyone diminishes me', so it is : with Speaker. His death diminishes me and all of you. Thank you. : Will I miss him? No, I won't. Am : I glad he no longer posts to alt. Callahan's? Yes I am glad his posts are : no longer here. I would however, have much rather he just stopped posting : as opposed to dying. Trust me, I understand why you feel that way. Leslie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 04:07:59 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <50gshf$l8m@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159203 On 01 Sep 1996 17:47:01 +0100 in alt.callahans, T.C. Muon said: : He turns around, although he'd looked in he never thought : he'd come here. Some look familiar from another place, : even another world. : : He walks back to the bar and orders a Stella. "Hello, stranger. Welcome to the Place. By what name shall we call you?" Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 01:29:36 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 26 Message-ID: <50g1m0$osl@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> <50baus$jps@xanadu.io.com> <50d7sl$199@decaxp.harvard.edu> <50e4lo$903@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159177 >[Thanks for the info, Rachel.] >: >"Well, sure, low blood sugar can make anyone cranky. That's why he >: >specifically gave kitten a 2X4: to whack some sense into him, if >: >she caught him not keeping an eye on it." >: >: Yeah. But he can't possibly have been low the entire time he was on >: the net. leslie: >"Ya, that was sort of my point. And that was one thing I never did >figure out how to figure out...how to tell the difference between him >flaming out of crankiness related to blood sugar, and him flaming out of >reasoned deliberation." kitten giggles..."i never did figure that out either...and i nearly had to eat the damn' 2x4 a couple of times..." -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!metro.atlanta.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.usit.net!news ~From: jmiles@usit.net (Janet D. Miles) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 00:58:44 GMT Organization: yeah right ~Lines: 21 Message-ID: <322a30b1.1096138@news.usit.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50arpv$hg5@news.cais.com> <50b8ci$rps@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <50cduc$a7a@news.cais.com> ~Reply-To: jmiles@usit.net NNTP-Posting-Host: bway-slip8.dynamic.usit.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/16.227 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159172 On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 16:37:22 GMT, in alt.callahans mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) wrote: [performance of "The Chemist's Drinking Song" snipped] >The music fades, Berek grins and waits to see how his performance was >recieved. With considerable joy and amusement, thank you very much! Do you know Tom Lehrer's "Periodic Table"? I tried memorizing it, figuring it would have to be easier with music, but never quite succeeded. On the other hand, I didn't spend *all* that much time working on it. Let me follow others in welcoming you to alt.callahans, and in offering to buy you a drink if/when you're ready (and it doesn't have to be alcoholic if you don't want). == Posted by Janet Miles , or if you prefer anonymous email. Copy cc:d to poster, who will probably get the email long before the actual post appears on the newsgroup Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!worldlinx.com!news1.sympatico.ca!news ~From: Linda or Robert Wilkinson ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 23:48:21 -0500 Organization: Tried organization once - didn't like it much. ~Lines: 30 Message-ID: <322BB895.1961@sympatico.ca> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50arpv$hg5@news.cais.com> <50b8ci$rps@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <50cduc$a7a@news.cais.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp2374.on.sympatico.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159225 comp.os.vms:154716 Michael D. Bartman wrote: > > > "Paradimethylaminobenzaldehyde; > Go soak your head in a good strong insecticide. > Slosh it around and impregnate your brain > With dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane!" > > The music fades, Berek grins and waits to see how his performance was > recieved. > "Gosh", says Blessing, as she floats back down from the rafters which were her sanctuary during the preceding. "I guess chemists get vowels for FREE!" Still slightly shaken (and a little stirred) "That was nearly ineffable!" -- L. Wilkinson lwilk@sympatico.ca "The stars come down," she thought, "down to the hills and the darkness. The darkness lifts up to the hills and the stars. And here on the porch is a me-sized empty place trying to Become. It's so hard to reconcile darkness and the stars - but what else are we but an attempt at reconcilliation?" Zenna Henderson 'The Ingathering' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!insync!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 05:20:29 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 11 Message-ID: <50h0pd$m5c@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50g0v6$n2s@news.cais.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159211 On Tue, 03 Sep 1996 01:20:39 GMT in alt.callahans, Michael D. Bartman said: : "Cross-poster...set for comp.os.vms. It's been sending some of the : conversations here down the street to the techno guys place. "Oops," Leslie says helpfully. "Didn't your newsreader show you the newsgroups line? I had sort of wondered why the a.c. stuff was showing up over there..." Leslie. Who's been editing her newsgroups line, too. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!munnari.OZ.AU!metro!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!lily.newcastle.edu.au!c9210088 ~From: c9210088@lily.newcastle.edu.au (Claire Black) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) Followup-To: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 07:17:24 GMT Organization: The University of Newcastle ~Lines: 38 Message-ID: <50gm24$ncd@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50arpv$hg5@news.cais.com> <50b8ci$rps@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <50cduc$a7a@news.cais.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lily.newcastle.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159194 comp.os.vms:154705 Michael D. Bartman (mike@cais.com) wrote: : "Paradimethylaminobenzaldehyde, : Sodium citrate, ammonium cyanide, : Mix 'em together and add some benzene : And top off the punch with trichloroethylene!" : "Got gassed up last night on some furfuryl alcohol, : Followed it up with a gallon of propanol, : Tanked up on hydrazine 'til after noon, : Then spat on the floor and blew up the saloon!" : "Paradimethylaminobenzaldehyde, : Powdered aluminum, nitrogen iodide, : Chlorates, permanganates, nitrates galore; : Just swallow one drink and you'll never need more!" : "Whiskey, tequila, and rum are too tame. : No, the stuff that I drink must explode into flame : When I breath and disolve all the paint in the room : And rattle the walls with a ground-shaking boom!" : "Paradimethylaminobenzaldehyde; : Go soak your head in a good strong insecticide. : Slosh it around and impregnate your brain : With dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane!" : The music fades, Berek grins and waits to see how his performance was : recieved. Claire_Bear grins "That was great :) Now I don't suppose you know any drinking songs about Scheme Programming?" -- Claire Black c9210088@cs.newcastle.edu.au GIT d-@ s: a- C++>$ ULS+>$ P L+(++) !E W+ N+ o? K--? w !O !M V-- PS? PE? Y? !PGP t+@ 5? X++ R tv b++++ DI-- D++ G e h-- r--@ x? Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!nntp.crl.com!usenet ~From: briancat@a.crl.com (-Lurch-) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 01:12:59 GMT Organization: none - anyone seen my other sock? ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50dc85$lq2@nntp.crl.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> <32290B71.7EAE@ix.netcom.com> <50ccl6$9ei@news.cais.com> ~Reply-To: briancat@a.crl.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a127022.dca1.as.crl.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159174 In alt.callahans, mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) burst forth, saying: >=>"The real answer? VMS was engineered, Unix 'jess growed'. Given the >=>differences in origin it isn't too surprising that Unix ended up a >=>tangled mess in which you can find nearly any shape you might >=>want...if you look long and hard enough." Berek smiles at this, >=>"While VMS is much easier to comprehend and work with quickly, but is >=>still capable of getting the job done in a reliable way. I see the >=>two, in botany terms, as a bonsai tree vs. a tangle of brambles. >=>Which is preferable depends on whether you are a gardener or a >=>rabbit." "Hmmm, I have experience in both - and keeping with the botanical analogy - VMS a bed of Tulips - pretty, does what it's supposed to most the time. UNIX - a bed of roses - full of thorns, but how sweet it is to get things done post haste. Which you use depends what type of garden you want." >=>> "Hmm.. sounds like you could use some more lubrication here. MIKE! Give the man his choice when he wants it" -Lurch- tosses some royal Betelguesan Ducats to the counter in fron of Mike. "That should cover it! Thanks" -Lurch- BASHing away as he fades to his usual LARGE grin. ************************************** *Brian Catlin * Pardon me, * *briancat@a.crl.com * My Typo * *HWG List Guide Manager * is showing * ************************************** Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!zdc-e!super.zippo.com!zdc!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!munnari.OZ.AU!metro!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!lily.newcastle.edu.au!c9210088 ~From: c9210088@lily.newcastle.edu.au (Claire Black) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 06:18:21 GMT Organization: The University of Newcastle ~Lines: 14 Message-ID: <50gijd$lds@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lily.newcastle.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159212 Leslie (leslie@io.com) wrote: : "It's nice to see some of the comp.os.vms crowd wandering over here, : seeing as how we just lost our own resident VAX/VMS god..." Claire_Bear hears this and is reminded to say: "Oh yes - I just got a errr, ummm request from one of the comp.os.vms crowd via email - he strongly requests that we don't cross post any more articles in this thread." -- Claire Black c9210088@cs.newcastle.edu.au GIT d-@ s: a- C++>$ ULS+>$ P L+(++) !E W+ N+ o? K--? w !O !M V-- PS? PE? Y? !PGP t+@ 5? X++ R tv b++++ DI-- D++ G e h-- r--@ x? Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!new-news.cc.brandeis.edu!ST951787@pip.cc.brandeis.edu ~From: st951787@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (BEREK) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 09:50:27 GMT Organization: Brandeis University ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <50gv13$4ni@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com>,<50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> ~Reply-To: st951787@pip.cc.brandeis.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: pip.cc.brandeis.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159206 In article <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) writes: >"Hello, Berek Halfaxe. Welcome to the Place. There's another Berek >over there somewhere, too, though, already--you'll have to sort out >a way to tell yourselves apart." "Shouldn't be too hard to tell the difference," Berek says. "After all, I'm a Klingon, Vulcan, and Terran fused in a transporter accident. I look somewhat unique." No Matter Where You Go, There You Are--Buckaroo Banzai WavBst@aol.com st951787@pip.cc.brandeis.edu Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!HiWAAY.net!usenet ~From: mjn@HiWAAY.net (Smokerise) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Carl Lydick - From a passing stranger. ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 02:54:51 GMT Organization: HiWAAY Information Services ~Lines: 28 Message-ID: <50di9r$blm@parlor.hiwaay.net> ~References: <917cc$1767.a9@HERMES> NNTP-Posting-Host: max12-69.hiwaay.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159186 In article <917cc$1767.a9@HERMES>, B.Hamilton@irl.cri.nz says... > > >The rather staid exterior of this place hides a >maelstrom of emotion. I've read three score and ten >of the posts concerning Carl, and still feel slightly >uncomfortable with the presented perceptions. > >I arrive from strange land ( sci.environment ) and >will not linger, but will try to respect your home >away from home as I pass by. > [A stranger speaks of dinosaurs and changing times] [He speaks of posters who do not think] [He says Carl's posts are sufficient memorial] I thank you, stranger, for a fresh view of this unique man. I wish you could stay; you would be welcome here. I think we will put up the plaque anyway. Carl might not need it, but we do. -- ============== Smokerise (AKA Mike Norton) ================ - Creator of improbable gadgets that always work. - Incarnation of Willie Armitage (Mission Impossible) - yhpruM's Law applies - if it can possibly work, it will Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.supernet.net!news.magicnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!demos!Gamma.RU!srcc!news1.relcom.ru!mcsun!EU.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!agate!boulder!spot.Colorado.EDU!rparson ~From: rparson@spot.Colorado.EDU (Robert Parson) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Carl Lydick - From a passing stranger. ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 21:18:18 GMT Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder ~Lines: 99 Message-ID: <50fiuq$i36@peabody.colorado.edu> ~References: <917cc$1767.a9@HERMES> NNTP-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu NNTP-Posting-User: rparson ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159217 [Yet another stranger enters the pub. He steps up to the bar and asks for a glass of Midleton Rare. Spider, he mutters, is a fantastic writer but his taste in Irish Whiskey is all wrong; Black Bush can't hold a candle to Midleton or Tyrconnell.] "Kind folk, I have for you not one but two testimonials that I have posted about your Speaker in the past week. One was written for alt.folklore.science, a group in which his virtues sparkled; one for sci.environment, where his record was somewhat more mixed." ------------------------------------------------------------------- [posted to alt.folklore.science] Carl Lydick was not a scientist, but he had a remarkable grasp of the physics and chemistry of everyday life - better than many professional scientists I've known. He also had a rare talent for explaining these things in simple language that was nevertheless correct. In both respects he reminded me of Isaac Asimov, who he greatly admired. Carl disagreed strongly with Asimov's left-leaning political stance, but unlike many people who are superficially more polite than he was, he never had any trouble separating scientific evaluations from political ones. Carl's combative style was better suited to some newsgroups (notably sci.skeptic) than others. He was usually right although occasionally he misfired (I'd guess his overall accuracy was about 85%). He often brought to my mind a quote that someone made about J. Robert Oppenheimer: "He doesn't suffer fools gladly, and he is sometimes a little bit hasty in deciding that someone is a fool. Once you succeeded in earning his respect (for example, by showing that he was wrong about something) he usually treated you well. That is, he'd give you a couple of chances to correct yourself before launching into one of his tirades. :-) I, for one, will miss him. --------------------------------------------------------- [posted to sci.environment] Carl hated false sentimentality so I won't be falsely sentimental. I'll say exactly what I think. He deserves that. Carl was a damn smart guy, and he had a remarkable grasp of what might be called "the physics of everyday life." He was at his best in sci.skeptic, where he directed his wrath against phony psychics, medical quacks, and the loonier postmodern science-studies types. He also performed to good effect in alt.folklore.science and sci.geo.meteorology, where he often explained things better than the professional scientists. He was more erratic in sci.environment, not because of his foul language and abusive style (he was that way everywhere) but rather because he sometimes plunged into subjects that he didn't know much about. In short, he screwed up. I well remember one flame war in which he unwisely tried to argue chemistry with Bruce Hamilton; after Bruce handed him his head, with the right shoulder, right arm, collarbone and several ribs attached, Carl shut up and AFAIK never went after Bruce again. Carl knew when he'd been beaten, although he didn't accept defeat gracefully - his way of acknowledging defeat was to drop out of a thread suddenly without explanation. Next time the subject came up, he would get it right, though. In sci.environment, Carl was at his best on subjects like climate change and atmospheric science; he knew the basic physics well, and picked up the specialized details quickly. He was one of the few people to really read through and understand the first version of my ozone depletion FAQ, for example. I know he did, because I later saw him using arguments from it, recast in his own style, in net debates. (He always gave me proper credit.) I learned a lot about how to explain science in nontechnical language from him. Carl was smart and knowledgeable guy who contributed a lot to this group. He was also a flaming asshole. This stance of his was deliberately calculated (he said so). There were situations in which it really was effective - for example, there used to be a guy in sci.skeptic who drove everybody nuts with vague, meandering disquisitions on the Social Construction of Scientific Reality and suchlike. When you argued politely with him, you always lost because he would "basically agree" with you and then reinterpret all of his vaguely-defined terms to come up with something very different. Carl actually got this guy to define his terms and state his positions in simple, ordinary language. He did it by insulting him until the guy did what was being asked of him out of sheer spite. Unfortunately, Carl used the same tactics in circumstances where they were inappropriate. He could not distinguish between people who were being vague and fuzzy in order to avoid stating their position clearly, and people who were being vague and fuzzy because they hadn't really figured out what their position was. What can you say? He was who he was. I'll miss him. ------ Robert Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!quagga.ru.ac.za!uct.ac.za!iafrica.com!not-for-mail ~From: donpaul ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Fuck you Speaker! How could You! ~Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 23:14:25 -0700 Organization: Internet Africa ~Lines: 32 Message-ID: <322BCCC1.6C82@iafrica.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 196-7-171-144.iafrica.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159222 Fuck you Speaker. How could you leave? His was one of the first messages I read when I wandered in nearly two years back. Spicy, acerbic vitriol laced with an intelect honed to a razors'edge...and then wrapped up in those juvenile cuss-words last heard on a primary school playing field. Moron...idiot..I ask you? Oh how I loved it when some smart arse wandered in and tried to match minds. Better still, when the do-gooding PC's grew offended and attempted to teach you good manners. Sagas that ran longer than Coronation Street or Bold and the Beautiful - or so it felt! Did he make the world a better place? Not a damn; but he taught me how to bite my tongue in RL - to engage brain before accelerating mouth! One is reminded that there is always someone smarter than oneself. The picture I keep in my head is of a bloke called Karl somewhere out there. Smarter than me and most. I guess he's still there - except he isn't around to remind us that often. Carve that plaque deep in case the contrary old bastard tries to come back and correct some minor, unintended error. Give 'em hell in heaven! It's going to get quiet around here. DonPaul goes to bed a sadder man at the passing of a mind he met in a new and exciting world. Suddenly, the virtues of the Internet have become terribly real - it isn't vitual at all. It's people! And people die. And I miss them terribly. Fuck you Speaker. It wasn't supposed to be like this! Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!claudia ~From: claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (and a RETURN) ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 18:41:40 GMT Organization: NowHere ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <50f9p4$6oo@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <841350465.14622@dejanews.com> <507fjb$iv5@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunster-lab1.student.harvard.edu Cc: leslie@io.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159223 Leslie (leslie@io.com) wrote to val: : : "As for me, personal updates can wait -- a lot's happened since I was last : : in here. It's good to see you all again." : "Nice to see you again too, Valentine. I suppose I wish it could have : been under happier circumstances... : "(BTW, I have a link to your 'ST: The Crouton Generation' page. It's : truly hilarious, I wish I could have been here to see it happening.)" Claudia, as an occasional participant but mostly reader of the Crouton Generation, grins. "It's definitely fun stoff. But, Leslie, I'm just wondering what made you think it happened *here*?" Claudia, humming "The Anachronism Tango" -- O Freuden-Tag! O Halloo-Schlag! Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.wildstar.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail ~From: elcabalero@aol.com (ElCabalero) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Speaker-to-Minerals, my enemy. ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 23:24:34 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) ~Lines: 63 ~Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <50g8di$e5k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159171 The door to The Place swings open, and a man walks in. He's familiar to some, 6'1", brown hair and eyes, 260 pounds but not looking it. The man's face is strange, tightly controlled would be the closest approximation. The face of a man who doesn't know exactly what he is feeling. He steps up to the bar, gets a bottle, and drains it in one long pull. Grabbing a second and stepping up to the chalk-line, he begins to declaim to any who care to listen, in a soft, but deep, carrying voice: "I thought very hard about what I would say, or even if I should say anything at all. StM was not my friend, nor was Carl Lydick. Indeed, he hated me (That is not my opinion, Carl related it to me in the second of only two phone conversations we ever had), and for a time I hated him with an intensity that I normally reserve for people I intend to kill." "The reasons for his hate for me I do not know. I'm pretty sure that if I tried to guess I would be wildly wrong, dead certain I would be significantly incorrect. I hated him because he seemed to have little or no empathy, but mostly because he never hesitated to attack me where I was weakest, even if I was not fighting back." "This is not too say he didn't have compassion, only that he seemed to be unable (or unwilling) to see things from my point of view. I wanted very badly to see him as a pure villain. Yet Carl would sometimes amaze me by doing the most wonderful things for people, in ways that seemed totally out of character. Of course, they weren't out of character, only not in accord with my mental image of his character. I, who pride myself on being able to get inside someone's head and see the world through their eyes, found myself completely and totallly baffled by StM." "It was as if, somehow, StM was truly the alien he pretended to be. That his way of thinking and feeling was so foreign to mine that I had literally no common ground with him. That I couldn't even grasp it, much less judge it. So, how can I blame him for not seeming to grasp mine?" "And even these statements are probably incorrect. I simply cannot see the heart of this enigma of a man." "'That which does not kill me, makes me stronger.' I am stronger, emotionally, for Carl's attacks on me. I learned things about myself I would have found no other way. Many of them, I did not like. In that way, I owe him a debt." Draining the second bottle, he reverses it and grabs it by the neck. "But I cannot love him for it." "And I don't know how I can pay that debt. I only know that in the future, on those melancholy nights when I remember my dead friends, as I fall deeper and deeper into an anaesthetic daze, I will remember one enemy, as well." With that, he makes as if to throw the bottle into the fireplace, then stops. Lowering it, he cradles it in his hands as he walks out of The Place, staring at it as if it holds incredible secrets, if only he knew how to look at it properly. The Uncaged Tiger Regards, The Gentleman Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Speaker-to-Minerals, my enemy. ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 04:39:16 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 37 Message-ID: <50guc4$lt4@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50g8di$e5k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159209 On 2 Sep 1996 23:24:34 -0400 in alt.callahans, ElCabalero said: : The door to The Place swings open, and a man walks in. He's familiar : to some, 6'1", brown hair and eyes, 260 pounds but not looking it. The : man's face is strange, tightly controlled would be the closest : approximation. The face of a man who doesn't know exactly what he is : feeling. Leslie watches the Uncaged Tiger enter, and her stomach tightens in apprehension. UT was the cause of her trying her double dammnedest to flame Speaker to ashes in email, the only time she ever did that. She got nowhere, of course, and StM flamed her back just as vigorously. She still got nowhere when she dropped the flames and tried logic, as best she could. He quit flaming, too, but he would not be moved... Listening as the Uncaged Tiger speaks, she remembers that terrible time, and many many thoughts cross her mind. But this seems not the time or the place to voice them aloud. [...] : With that, he makes as if to throw the bottle into the fireplace, then : stops. Lowering it, he cradles it in his hands as he walks out of The : Place, staring at it as if it holds incredible secrets, if only he knew : how to look at it properly. "I hope that doesn't mean you're leaving us, Dave? Please...stick around? I've missed you..." Leslie. CC: Dave --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: ciacon@popd.ix.netcom.com (Wayne Johnson) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Speaker-to-Minerals, my enemy. ~Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 06:37:02 GMT Organization: CIA Consulting ~Lines: 112 Message-ID: <50gjhu$n2r@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50g8di$e5k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: whx-ca3-06.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03 1:34:38 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159192 elcabalero@aol.com (ElCabalero) wrote: > The door to The Place swings open, and a man walks in. He's familiar >to some, 6'1", brown hair and eyes, 260 pounds but not looking it. The >man's face is strange, tightly controlled would be the closest >approximation. The face of a man who doesn't know exactly what he is >feeling. Agent detects the flickering within the man; realizes it's much like his own. The inner man, cursed with empathy, hidden in the physique of the outer man, who others would think didn't need sensitivity to deal with his world. > He steps up to the bar, gets a bottle, and drains it in one long pull. > Grabbing a second and stepping up to the chalk-line, he begins to declaim >to any who care to listen, in a soft, but deep, carrying voice: > "I thought very hard about what I would say, or even if I should say >anything at all. StM was not my friend, nor was Carl Lydick. Indeed, he >hated me (That is not my opinion, Carl related it to me in the second of >only two phone conversations we ever had), and for a time I hated him with >an intensity that I normally reserve for people I intend to kill." As the man speaks, the intensity of the flickering grows to strobe-like pitch; the man's rage is not at himself, for not acting on his anger, but on Speaker to Minerals, who cared not that the struggle took place at all. He understands, and is miserable in the memory of his own struggle. > "The reasons for his hate for me I do not know. I'm pretty sure that >if I tried to guess I would be wildly wrong, dead certain I would be >significantly incorrect. I hated him because he seemed to have little or >no empathy, but mostly because he never hesitated to attack me where I was >weakest, even if I was not fighting back." > "This is not too say he didn't have compassion, only that he seemed to >be unable (or unwilling) to see things from my point of view. I wanted >very badly to see him as a pure villain. Yet Carl would sometimes amaze >me by doing the most wonderful things for people, in ways that seemed >totally out of character. Of course, they weren't out of character, only >not in accord with my mental image of his character. I, who pride myself >on being able to get inside someone's head and see the world through their >eyes, found myself completely and totallly baffled by StM." The curse of empathy is laid heavily on this man; Agent, perhaps more than others, can nearly anticipate every word this man will speak. > "It was as if, somehow, StM was truly the alien he pretended to be. >That his way of thinking and feeling was so foreign to mine that I had >literally no common ground with him. That I couldn't even grasp it, much >less judge it. So, how can I blame him for not seeming to grasp mine?" Agent leaps to his feet, and catching himself, sits again. How to explain that empathy is a curse? The person perceived is not the person; we cannot truly know, only project our own inner being in a twisted mask over what we see in others; this is the curse of the empath. Speaker to Minerals was not of the ordinary run of humanity; for this Gentleman to project his own simple decency onto the complex psyche of Speaker was to descend into the maelstrom of self-doubt... Agent, who has been there, knows what is to be said next. > "And even these statements are probably incorrect. I simply cannot >see the heart of this enigma of a man." Breathing in relief, Agent realizes that The Gentleman has managed to relinquish the helm, and let the storm run its course without his struggling with it. He will remain sane. > "'That which does not kill me, makes me stronger.' I am stronger, >emotionally, for Carl's attacks on me. I learned things about myself I >would have found no other way. Many of them, I did not like. In that >way, I owe him a debt." "Do not mistake hardness for strength," murmurs Agent, but is not heard. > Draining the second bottle, he reverses it and grabs it by the neck. > "But I cannot love him for it." > "And I don't know how I can pay that debt. I only know that in the >future, on those melancholy nights when I remember my dead friends, as I >fall deeper and deeper into an anaesthetic daze, I will remember one >enemy, as well." > With that, he makes as if to throw the bottle into the fireplace, then >stops. Lowering it, he cradles it in his hands as he walks out of The >Place, staring at it as if it holds incredible secrets, if only he knew >how to look at it properly. >The Uncaged Tiger "I don't think that anything that fails to kill me makes me stronger," said Agent to no one in particular, "I just think it makes me more dangerous." And with that, he drained off the frozen Stolichnaya, and arced his glass into its final home. Wayne Johnson ciacon@ix.netcom.com (On a Usenet troll): It is said that each person has a purpose in life. His is to show that things are never perfect. ....DCI Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!max.tiac.net!cmarie ~From: cmarie@max.tiac.net (Claudia Marie ) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: 3 Sep 96 00:51:16 GMT Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. ~Lines: 11 Message-ID: ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159173 ciacon@popd.ix.netcom.com (Wayne Johnson) writes: >I was greatly saddened to hear of the death of Carl Lydick. >I did not know that Carl had as many fans as he did; I certainly was >one, and remain so. Since he got a kick out of these missives, I will >repost them in these groups, to his memory.... Claudia grins. "This and DJ's trip to Tycho, I'm putting on my favorite posts page (to which anyone can add posts by mailing them to me)." Claudia Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 01:06:52 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <50g0bc$9b1@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com> <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> <50edqm$ksi@ilx018.iil.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154715 sci.skeptic:205236 alt.callahans:159219 In article <50edqm$ksi@ilx018.iil.intel.com>, Uri Raz wrote: > Some guys around here know, having spoken with his employers. As far as I > could gather from the newsgroups, someone sent some of Carl's mails to > Carl's employers and complained, and they decided to fire him. Post hoc ergo propter hoc? > As far as I could gather (and someone has called the police, and got > confirmation to Carl's death, and maybe knows the formal reasons), Carl > had a serious heart condition, which he didnt take care of (he didnt > take surgery or medicine), and died from his heart condition. He did take medication -- both for his diabetes (insulin) and for his heart condition. Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.gtn.com!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!usenet ~From: Jan Vorbrueggen ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 03 Sep 1996 09:14:59 +0200 Organization: Institut fuer Neuroinformatik, Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum, Germany ~Lines: 17 ~Sender: jan@cora Message-ID: ~References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: cora.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.33 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159198 dpm@access4.digex.net (David P. Murphy) writes: > steve@adam.com.au (stephen white) writes: > > >Carl Lydick was completely correct when he pointed out that dpm was > >attempting a crude form of emotional blackmail. > > PhaseOfTheMoon shakes his head tiredly, that once again the mere mention > of a personal tragedy is considered 'emotional blackmail', while the abusive > insults deliberately aimed at newcomers who failed to ask their questions > 'properly', with the intent of making them feel so unwelcome that they would > not post again, were felt to be morally justifiable. [rest snipped to save bandwidth] I'm with you all the way, David. Jan Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.interlog.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 07:40:22 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50h5f6$fbq@zot.io.org> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159231 On 30 Aug 1996 13:08:13 GMT in alt.callahans, Chris Barnhart said: : : Leslie, you seem to suffer from the same condition as StM suffered. : EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, whether based in fact or not. Eyeing Technopup narrowly, Leslie says, "Then of course you grant that I am entitled to my opinion of Looking Wolf's (and everyone else's) opinion? And you grant that StM was entitled to his opinions of other people? "And," she adds. "StM would have called that statement one of the single most stupid things he'd ever heard. 'Whether based in fact or not'--good god, you really think an opinion based on figments of a person's imagination could be *worth* anything, to them or anyone else?" Leslie. A trick question? You be the judge... cc: Technopup (are you getting news okay lately? Let me know...) -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!news.sgi.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!news.texas.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!btnet-feed1!news.compulink.co.uk!cix.compulink.co.uk!usenet ~From: adi@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Adrian Carter") ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Message-ID: Organization: Compulink Information eXchange Amca: Amusement Caterers (Sheffield) Limited ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:11:19 GMT X-News-Software: Ameol32 ~Lines: 15 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159230 Adi who has been absent for some time for various reasons wanders back into the bar. He knew if Speaker To Minerals and conversed with him on the odd occasion. "My only knowledge of Speaker was in here, but regardless of what he meant to you he was pretty much a landmark in this place. Threads involving him were numerous and always lively whether or not you agreed with him or not". Adi continues silently raising a glass "He'll be missed" Adi ========== DisHevelled Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!bt!usenet ~From: Carol Clarke ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 14:14:51 +0100 Organization: BT, but this is my own view and not necessarily BT's ~Lines: 85 Message-ID: <322C2F4B.22C9@boat.bt.com> ~References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> ~Reply-To: CLARKEC4@boat.bt.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 147.150.160.129 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b7 (Win16; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159232 comp.os.vms:154722 David P. Murphy wrote: > > steve@adam.com.au (stephen white) writes: > > >Carl Lydick was completely correct when he pointed out that dpm was > >attempting a crude form of emotional blackmail. > > PhaseOfTheMoon shakes his head tiredly, that once again the mere mention > of a personal tragedy is considered 'emotional blackmail', while the abusive > insults deliberately aimed at newcomers who failed to ask their questions > 'properly' I've lurked for years - and lurked again even more intensely since news of Carl's death broke wondering whether and if to post and what to say. I'm uncomfortable with the generalisations and therefore felt I had to put my view of Carl's behaviour over here - largely for the benefit of the Callahanians (though I'm growing to think they knew him better than we did). I also think - despite the understandable wish of comp.os.vms to hear no more about this, that as it involves the relative views of both groups this must be cross posted so you can disagree with _me_! - apologies to those upset by this. David - I believe that you do Carl an injustice in appearing to claim this was how he treated all newcomers and their questions. For the record - I have seen him be helpful and abusive to new and old comers. It always seemed to me that he flamed the 'takers' from the net, the people who wanted their code fixed without even giving us sight of it!, the people who thought we were psychic, people who claimed as fact knowledge which was faulty, people who only gave us half the question etc. People who were open about their problems and showed they had made efforts to help themselves were treated differently (as is, ironically, illustrated in the thread you quoted on your site with several replies we can all agree with!). He didn't put me off posting - though he did make me check all the facts first. He also often made me laugh out loud. >, with the intent of making them feel so unwelcome that they would > not post again, were felt to be morally justifiable. I think you misrepresent (my understanding of) Carl's aims - I understood him to want them to _think_ before they posted. Something I always thought was a laudible aim! but I often thought he came on far too strong - 'sheesh' always seemed to make the point well enough to me (Maybe he did work in that Steel works?!) I also think you do a lot of people an injustice in claiming Carl's methods were considered (by whom?) 'morally justifiable'. Many of the group took long and loud objection to them both publically and privately and even those who didn't cannot be assumed to have agreed. My impression of you from your posts over the years didn't seem to me to be from someone prone to generalise so I think that you are misrepresenting yourself here *grin* by making these generalisations? > "if you disagree with me, join the club, you're not alone. and maybe, > for the sake of argument, i should not have written that post. If I may offer a view here too - I think you fell foul of one of the great gotchas of Usenet and Email - your post was completely 'flat' and didn't necessarily read as you wrote it. It is _possible_ to read the part about the miscarriage as a 'Postscript' (as I did when I first read it) and therefore, perhaps, see it as an 'excuse'. Having seen your replies and denials I believe you didn't mean it as such but if I can see that maybe you can see that Carl (and maybe others) saw it the other way? IMHO his response was _appalling_ (but I was not lurking at the real time it happened so couldn't post to that effect or I would have done), I also think your response to his response was disproportionate. I venture to wonder if you also wonder if that was so? I suppose we all have our own style. To finish I: - greatly admire your honesty in making public your actions - grieve for you and your wife's loss - am stunned at the loss I feel for Carl - someone I 'knew' only through his posts - hope that posting this against my better judgement was not a mistake and it will be taken in the spirit in which it was intended. Carol Clarke (trying hard not to fan the flames) -- [ Note: Opinions expressed are entirely my own and are my views. They are in no way related to opinions held by my employer ] Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 08:10:31 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 11 Message-ID: <50hao7$eo6@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <50f6a0$sme@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159236 John Palmer wrote: [] He had a human side, and a good heart; he just didn't know it [] where most people'd expect he would. Precisely. DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 13:30:43 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 57 Message-ID: <50hbu3$i3v@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159241 Chris Barnhart (cbarnhart@radix.net) wrote: (re: Leslie, "the net didn't bring out the worst in him") : I absolutely disagree. It *did* bring out the worst in him. Calling : someone a moron or shit for brains or anything else like that hardly : EVER causes them to think. And, as anal-retentive and nit picky as : Carl was, it should have been a fairly obvious distinction for him : that saying someone is stupid is much different than saying something : someone says is stupid. Nod. However, merely saying that "you've said something stupid" wouldn't have been what he was trying to communicate. Carl was honest; this isn't necessarily a good thing ("Gee, Aunt Sara, I know you'll never cook this for me again, and I wasn't hungry so I didn't eat much, but your pasta salad was horrible; I mean, it really sucked rocks; I'd likely gag at the very thought of tasting even the smallest bit, ever again.") but it's necessary to understanding him. : Whether or not his intentions were clear unto himself, Carl, like all : of us, needed to take the responsibilities for his actions. Er, he did. What he didn't do was "want to accomplish the things that you wanted him to want to accomplish". That is, he had different goals than you thought he should have had. YOU thought he should desire to keep people from feeling bad about what he said. . . he didn't. Call him an asshole, call him a callous unfeeling bastard. . . you'll be wrong in both cases, but you'll be a LOT closer than calling him irresponsible. : When I've flamed, albeit here or somewhere else, I've been called on : the carpet for it, and perhaps rightfully so. Though I think that : there is a time to express anger. As do I. . . and people who attack me "just" for flaming get back worse, twice over. Those who say "I think this flame was unjustified" or who say "You are, in fact, wrong" or who ask questions get a much kinder, more polite response. : My impressions of Carl's flaming tendencies were that he had a lot of : inner rage he couldn't take out elsewhere, that he had a terminal : Napoleonic complex, that he had little regards for how anyone felt, : other than himself. : Am I wrong? Perhaps. Grin. At least you're willing to admit that you don't know. That's the first step. : I wasn't going to say any of this, not out of respect for StM/Carl, : but for respect for his friends. But it's apparent that everyone who : knew him is aware of the controversy regarding his personality. Herm. If any of his friends couldn't deal with honest, harsh words directed at him, I don't know how they could stay his friends for long. However, you're slightly inaccurate in your asessment. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 13:38:42 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 41 Message-ID: <50hcd2$i3v@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159243 Looking Wolf (lookingwolf@rand.nidlink.com) wrote: : "I had wondered about this myself," says the wolf, "so, after I learned : a bit more about Carl (posthumously, unfortunately), I asked a friend of : mine who is a psychologist. She said that Carl's medical conditions : could easily have affected his personality. It could have. . . but. . . : "Diabetes can cause mood swings, and even mild personality disorders, as : the brain is continually short-changed in its food supply. Also, Carl : had congestive heart disease, I have been told, and was scheduled for a : sextuple bypass operation. He must have been in incredible pain. That : pain, combined with whatever medication he was taking, could have caused : long-term problems, including his general irascibility. He was nasty long before his medical problems. He was at least as bad when he first came into Callahan's, some 4+ years ago. Every now and then I had a flash of perverse joy when people got exasperated with him. See, our first fights were over Christianity and theology, and *EVERYONE* knows that THOSE topics aren't worth defending. He was an asshole about that, see, but no one cared. It wasn't until he attacked something that the other person considered important that they cared about his language. I guess it's the cynic in me. Somehow I enjoyed the hypocrisy of those who didn't care about Speaker until he attacked something that THEY had their druthers about. Plus, by that time, he was something of a constant, and a pain in the neck that I'd gotten used to. . . I felt superior because I could deal with him by now, and these other people couldn't. Recently, I think he was on a shorter fuse. Plus, I think he was wrong more often recently. . . but he hadn't changed his method all that much. What had changed was not the intensity, but the frequency. Shrug. One final note: Carl would make no excuse nor ask any sympathy for his condition. If you'd dared try to excuse the least little bit of his nastiness because of his health, he'd have shown you how nasty he was. He *INSISTED* on "owning" every one of his actions, even when he wasn't completely in control of those actions. *THAT* is a level of responsibility that I've rarely, if ever, seen. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 13:47:23 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 51 Message-ID: <50hctb$i3v@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159244 Chris Barnhart (cbarnhart@radix.net) wrote: : > "Great. The above would have gotten you *nuked* by StM. His major : reason : > for postponing the operation was, in fact, posted by him here, in : June. : > So it was *not* 'known only to himself.' Next theory? Try to make : it : > based in *facts* this time, eh?" : Leslie, you seem to suffer from the same condition as StM suffered. : EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, whether based in fact or not. Yes, everyone is. But Chris, not everyone is allowed to post false information without it being challenged. If I posted a bunch of revisionist bullshit about how the Holocaust never happened, would you complain when someone posted a strong counter to my claims? : What some of us are saying (and which you REFUSE to allow) is that we : didn't *care* to delve into the personality of StM and I personally : don't care *how* he rationalized his obnoxious behavior on or : offline. Er, Chris. . . how do you know he RATIONALIZED his behavior? How do you know he didn't EXPLAIN his behavior? You're insisting that he wasn't honest while admitting that you don't really know the truth. . . don't you see the hypocrisy in that? : Why the hell are you trying to take apart almost everyone who differs : with your construct of StM's personality? Leslie is defending a man she loved from the type of attack that he would loathe. "Pity poor Speaker, he wasn't in control, he didn't really mean it. . . he wasn't honest, he was lying to us about who he was, what he felt, and what he meant, but only because he was in PAIN. So ignore whatever it was he might ever have said that you disliked, because, after all, it wasn't really HIM speaking." Gads. If someone said that about ME. . . well. . . I can't think of words strong enough. : If you want to discredit everyone : who doesn't buy into the Carl as great teacher and pointer out of all : wrongs, then fine. Er, where is Leslie doing that? Please, Chris, explain how Leslie is doing that, or admit that you overspoke yourself. I think Leslie will be one of the first to admit that Carl was wrong often enough. . . she won't let people say that he was wrong half as often as THEY thought he was, and she won't let them whitewash his words with a pleasing coat of illness, but she's NOT making Speaker out to be a saint. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 14:01:57 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 71 Message-ID: <50hdol$i3v@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159246 Looking Wolf (lookingwolf@rand.nidlink.com) wrote: : Leslie wrote: : > He said, given : > the complications of his diabetes anyway, having the operation wouldn't : > change the quality of his life. Somehow I suspect 'being free of pain' : > would count as a change in the quality of his life, no? : "If being free of pain would have changed the quality of his life, then : he must have been in pain. You just reversed your earlier position. No, she said that since the bypass wouldn't have changed the quality of his life, he must not have been in pain. Why? Because getting rid of pain is a change in the quality of life. : > "As far as iracibility goes, he's been that way for decades. And : > recently there were a lot of threads going on in at least three : > newsgroups where he was faced with both idiots and misinterpretations. : > Just how short would your fuse be, under those conditions?" : "If the people in these newsgroups were making me that angry, I'd : probably just quit posting to them. Nod. But you're not Carl. : My health is more important than : trying to make an idiot see the light, which most of them never will, no : matter how hard you try." Huh? This has nothing to do with health. Leslie said "he could be on a short fuse because of flamewars on three newsgroups". That doesn't mean anything about his health at that time. : "I was only trying to give some possible reasons for the behavior Carl : exhibited. Quite a few people seemed hurt by his anger, and I thought, : 'Gee, maybe it wasn't all personal. Maybe he wasn't just an angry, : nasty, hateful, spiteful bastard. Maybe all the good things people are : saying about him are true also. Okay, but don't insist that your interpretation is more valuable than what Carl himself said. Carl *NEVER* insisted he was polite, and, in fact, stated several times that he was rude, and intentionally so. He specifically stated that he was disgusted, but rarely angry, with stupidity. As for it being "personal"? There were times when you'd see he and I speaking gently, in a potentially friendly manner in one post, while going at it hammer and tongs in another. Oh, he had enemies, people he intensely disliked, but I'd say that a vast majority of the people he insulted weren't insulted "personally". He just wasn't going to say that it wasn't personal because that might give the wrong impression. . . such as, making it sound like he didn't really MEAN what he said, with as much conviction as he used. : "By the way, if you read carefully, you will see that I NEVER ONCE said : 'I am right, this is the way it is.' Instead, it was always 'maybe' and : 'could have been' and so on. Nod. But you could also say that "Clinton was maybe terrified to be hurt or killed in the military; he could have been unconcerned about the war in Vietnam, and only concerned with his own precious skin", and you're still being insulting. (Side note: I don't know that Bill Clinton WASN'T afraid of being hurt; how would I, and how could I know that? But raising that as a possible reason and not exploring other reasons pushes the idea that it "probably was" cowardice.) Again: Speaker never got that much NASTIER. . . but he did get to be on a shorter fuse. The latter I can believe could be caused by suffering of one sort or another, but the former was always there. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 14:11:52 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50heb8$i3v@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50a9fd$oc8@pentagon.io.com> <50afos$ibe@news1.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159248 Chris Barnhart - (TechnoPup) (cbarnhart@radix.net) wrote: : leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: : >"Okay--so, you have your own personal standards as to what constitutes : >'a time to express anger.' Why do you feel that StM should've also : >been bound by *your* standards, rather than his own? What if StM : >diagreed with *you* about when and where and how you expressed anger? : >Would you have agreed to follow his standards after that?" : Leslie, you digress as you always seem to. I am not claiming Carl : should have done anything. I"m stating my own (as you pointed out) : personal beliefs on Carl. You're at least strongly insinuating that Carl's decisions about when to express anger was wrong. : Ask yourself your own question. Why is it someone who didn't like : Carl is jumped on by you? Has Leslie "jumped on" anyone who's expressed dislike for Carl *WITHOUT* posting information that Carl himself contradicted? You seem to sure that Leslie is trying to paint Carl to be a saint when she's just answering a heck of a lot of statements that would be insulting to Carl. : You have railed against many, defying logic and : syntax on several occasions, just to speak for Carl. Perhaps you can provide examples of these defiances of logic and syntax before insulting Leslie? Or perhaps it's time for you to suggest that you overspoke yourself? Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 14:18:00 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50hemo$i3v@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50a9fd$oc8@pentagon.io.com> <50afos$ibe@news1.radix.net> <50csj5$r6h@medea.gp.usm.edu> <50d6nk$8da@news1.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159249 Chris Barnhart - (TechnoPup) (cbarnhart@radix.net) wrote: : jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) wrote: : >TechnoPup: : >[] He never flamed me. I never spoke with him. I observed his : >[] interactions with others, found him lacking in the human qualities : > Maybe your observing skills need improving... : Maybe your debate skills need lacking. If you want to respond to a : sentence, at least don't cut the sentence off in the middle. Ah, but : then it makes it something you can cut down, doesn't it? Carl *was* : indeed lacking in the qualities *I* consider to be important. Really? List those properties, then prove that he didn't have those qualities. *OR* admit that you didn't think he had those qualities, OR admit that you just plain didn't like how he presented himself, and stop trying to make a moral issue about it. ain't no one gonna say you gotta love the bastard, but if you're not gonna like him, you should at least know *WHY*. You most especially shouldn't dislike him for the wrong reason. Not if you wanna play "more callahanian than thou". : >[] Ask yourself your own question. Why is it someone who didn't like : >[] Carl is jumped on by you? Must everyone answer to the great : >[] net-goddess Leslie? You have railed against many, defying logic and : >[] syntax on several occasions, just to speak for Carl. : > bullshit. : Gee.... good retort. Shrug. Then prove that it's not bullshit; post those several examples of Leslie defying logic and syntax. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!mcsun!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!news ~From: muon@sandy.ast.cam.ac.uk (T.C. Muon) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 03 Sep 1996 14:08:04 +0100 Organization: IoA, Cambridge ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50gshf$l8m@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sandy.ast.cam.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159237 leslie@io.com (Leslie) writes: > On 01 Sep 1996 17:47:01 +0100 in alt.callahans, > T.C. Muon said: > : He turns around, although he'd looked in he never thought > : he'd come here. Some look familiar from another place, > : even another world. > : > : He walks back to the bar and orders a Stella. > > "Hello, stranger. Welcome to the Place. By what name shall we call you?" "Hello there. I am best known here as `muon', although I have other names. For a brief time I was known as `Speaker to Speakers', until another took my place." He takes a deep sip of the pint and nods his thanks to Cindy. "Nice place you got here, I've heard much about it. I won't be staying long, but some occasions cannot be allowed to pass without acknowledging them." Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!warwick!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!news ~From: muon@sandy.ast.cam.ac.uk (T.C. Muon) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 03 Sep 1996 14:35:44 +0100 Organization: IoA, Cambridge ~Lines: 41 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50gshf$l8m@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sandy.ast.cam.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159245 muon@sandy.ast.cam.ac.uk (T.C. Muon) writes: > leslie@io.com (Leslie) writes: > > On 01 Sep 1996 17:47:01 +0100 in alt.callahans, > > T.C. Muon said: > > : He turns around, although he'd looked in he never thought > > : he'd come here. Some look familiar from another place, > > : even another world. > > : > > : He walks back to the bar and orders a Stella. > > > > "Hello, stranger. Welcome to the Place. By what name shall we call you? > "Hello there. I am best known here as `muon', although I have ... > "Nice place you got here, I've heard much about it. > I won't be staying long, but some occasions cannot be > allowed to pass without acknowledging them." "Oh, while I remember. Mike, I don't quite know what could be done with this, but this was StM's. Well used, in another place, where such are needed." He reaches under his cloak and pulls out a vicious looking switchblade. The handle is green, and heavily stained with blood and ochre. He flicks the blade open to reveal the legend engraved: `Parson's slasher' "I also brought this, he always wanted one, but we wouldn't let him. Handicap rules you know." From under his cloak he brings out a new, shining cleadhmorh, the scabbard is green, the grip and guard plain and functional. "He never carried a shield in that other place, nor anywhere else I knew." Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!juand.earth.nwu.edu!jed ~From: jed@juand.earth.nwu.edu (John DeLaughter) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 13:49:18 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL, US ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <50hd0u$429@news.acns.nwu.edu> ~References: <50f3h6$661@news.cais.com> <50fb6a$4c@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: juand.earth.nwu.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159250 agwin@mail.utexas.edu (Anne Gwin) writes: > >No, no, please stay! Anybody who tells me where to find "S-N" (which isn't >on the greatest hits CD! Argh!) is Very Very Welcome! In fact I will >happiL-Y buy you a drink. Thank you, but I prefer to hide in the background, unless I can be os some use. (I may, however take you up on that drink - being a grad student, I *live* for/by coffee and alcohol, not necessarily in that order...) But, for now, I need to be "learning Chinese, said Werner Von Braun" (i.e., I've got to get back to my research). John DeLaughter Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV!MORPHIS ~From: morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: niceness and Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Followup-To: alt.callahans ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 15:05:15 GMT Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab ~Lines: 117 Message-ID: <50hhfb$jmn@fnnews.fnal.gov> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> <50cl5c$o0c@apollo.csd.net> <50d83u$55k@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,<50deq8$qgh@apollo.csd.net> ~Reply-To: morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV NNTP-Posting-Host: d0niu3.fnal.gov ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154730 sci.skeptic:205326 alt.callahans:159247 My apologies to the info-vax crowd, this will be my last post to c.o.vms on this subject. mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) writes: >Camilla Cracchiolo writes: > >>What would be truly ironic is if someone built a conspiracy theory >>out of Carl's death. :) > >Recent battles, Carl vs the "be nice" faction, focussed upon threats of >contacting his employer. I recall a poster from Isreal actually >publishing a Caltech address people could use. I remember that minor conflict, I and a number of other people took the Israeli to task for his suggestion. He was quite surprized, thought there was a language problem. >Carl had a good time skewering the jew (if he was) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >with a sharply pointed "Nazi" barb, which >of course caused the expected reaction amongst those in opposition. Considering that the Nazis murdered something like 14 million people because they were of the wrong ethnic group or religion or sexual orientation, not to mention the ?20 million Russians and however many others they killed in the war I think it not unreasonable to be very restrained in the use of that label. My main feed tends to purge fairly often but I don't recall Carl defending his use of Nazi after he was taken to task for it. If you have some reason to believe that Carl actually enjoyed "skewering the jew" I would suggest that Richard was right in his suggestion that Carl was sick in more than one way. (My own feeling was that Carl was human with all that that implies) > Mark gmt1810@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes: >In article <504fv7$j68@corn.cso.niu.edu>, >system@niuhep.physics.niu.edu writes: >>Nigel Arnot writes: >>>"Richard B. Gilbert" <76702.1567@CompuServe.COM> wrote: >>>> Stafford@Wind.Winona.msus.edu writes: >>>> >ubeeson@slamaa.ed.ray.com wrote: >[Snip...] > >>Real Men change diapers > >Real men don't _wear_ diapers :-) Shit for brains. Presumably the :-) applies to only the first comment not the "Shit for brains". If you have something substantial to state about my statements that you please feel free, otherwise confine your grieving to the bar. Normally I snip article #s but in this case I left it in so that anybody who was curious could go back and see if they could figure out what got Mark into a snit. I beleive this was only on comp.os.vms. >But you appear to be actually talking about the "American >Dream"..."nice" people raising "nice" families.... > > Mark What does the "American Dream" have to do with raising a family? I am talking about the basic evolutionary drive to procreate, and the responsible action of sticking around to raise the children you sired. In my book men who refuse to change diapers because "its icky" or "its a woman's job" only rank a couple of rungs higher than men who abandon their children (and men who discourage the mothers of their children from breastfeeding don't rate any higher, but that is another discussion). When did "nice" become an insult? I don't know about you but I like nice families who don't let their children stomp around in the apartment above you at 6:00 in the morning. Oh, you could retaliate with loud music at 2:00 am or by going to the landlord, but wouldn't it be NICE if they were considerate of your needs? Or we could talk about NICE kids who keep the sand in the sandbox * that you were NICE enough to let them use. Or we could talk about teenage boys who are polite and don't put on an attitude when they are retrieving the ball that came into your yard. *most of the time, come on, we're talking about kids here. And just in case some idgit decides to hang a political label on me for my "defense" of the "American Family" read my web page (my fingers are getting tired :) Final comment to alt.callahans (I think this is going there too) apologies for the non-persona posts. I stopped by and listened in, sounds like a nice place. "StM and I, ahem, didn't exactly get along, generally I ignored his flamefests, valued his input and occasional help when I needed it, occasionally explained to newbies what he was about, and every so often explained why I thought he was wrong. (wish I had done that a few more times...)" "Listening to your wake has made me simultaniously happy and sad, I am glad he had such friends and companions in his life's journey. I am sad to think he is gone and to know the physical pain that he endured." Peace to all, Robert Morphis system@physics.niu.edu morphis@physics.niu.edu morphis@fnal.gov http://www.physics.niu.edu/~morphis ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!ap-seans.uchicago.edu!seanr ~From: seanr@fs-gate.uchicago.edu (Starknight) ~Subject: Re: A new Entry in the Allabout regarding Speaker X-Nntp-Posting-Host: ap-seans.uchicago.edu Message-ID: ~Lines: 39 ~Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: University of Chicago/Comptrollers Office X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #1] ~References: <5041fi$1d@crushed.ice.net> <507j79$hob@zot.io.org> ~Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:34:25 GMT ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159254 In article imorgan@umr.edu (Ilene H. Morgan) writes: >In article <507j79$hob@zot.io.org>, deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) wrote: >>On 29 Aug 96 23:40:35 GMT in alt.callahans, >>Claudia Marie said: >>: kwalsh@ice.net (shadowcat) writes: >>: >Speaker to Minerals - Resident Curmudgeon, Bringer of Wisdom, You will be >>: >missed. >>: Claudia's face takes on a wry expression. >>: "There's a difference between wisdom and factual knowledge. My >>: understanding was that it was the latter Speaker strove for." >>"I think I agree with Claudia. An awful lot of people disagreed with >>StM's idea of 'wisdom.' How about just 'Resident Curmudgeon, and an >>intellect to be reckoned with'--?" >"I'll drink to that." <<>> Starknight's glass describes a gentle arc through the air, and demolishes the pile of stacked glasses in the fireplace. "Sorry, folx, but the fireplace needs to be kept clear... Speaker would have wanted that." A wry grin crosses his face. "I've been thinking pretty seriously about mortality the last week or so, from the time Kitten called me with the news. Carl's death, so soon after the car crash I had earlier this year, shook loose a whole bunch of things that have been plaguing my thoughts. It's been a bit depressing. On the positive side, a great deal of creativity has been released by this, and it's translated really well into the Vampire chronicle I'm working on... "I'll always remember StM, and Carl also. Even though we had it out several times in the past, he was always willing to listen to what I had to say. I had a wonderful exchange of email with him about my 'Why won't they listen to me?' rant some time back... I'm rambling. I guess... all I can say now is... "So long, Carl. May your journey take you where you need to go, and may the challenges be almost - but not quite - too difficult to overcome..." Starknight Now, where did I put my life? It was right around here somewhere... Path: news2.digex.net!access1!dpm ~From: dpm@access1.digex.net (David P. Murphy) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 14:03:09 -0400 Organization: Phase of the Moon Software Inc. Alexandria, VA ~Lines: 49 Message-ID: ~References: <322608B3.33A2@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159263 === FAIRFAX, VA 13:29 Tuesday 3 September 1996 === PhaseOfTheMoon folds up his cell phone and slips it back into his jacket. "I just finished speaking to Jean Grinols, who is the 'Division Administrator' for caltech's Division of Geological and Planetary Sciences. I introduced myself --- she recognized my name from that letter, of course --- and told her about the wake on the internet, and that many people (mostly friends) were very much in need of some hard information. She was very polite and did not hesitate to answer my questions, which i hereby summarize." The police found him on Friday 23 Aug 1996 in his apartment. They found his doctor's name on medication and determined that he had not been to that doctor for approximately six months. A preliminary indication from the morgue is that he had not been taking his medicine [unspecified] for a long time. The autopsy is not done; she will call me once she knows the results. His sister has flown in from Maryland to handle the necessary arrangements. Carl was laid off [her words] because the grant money ran out for Professor James Westphal (Professor of Planetary Science) and his project. In fact, a few other people are feeling the axe (or soon will) along with Carl. The only effect my letter had {was}{would have been} 'a small disciplinary action'. She agreed quite strongly with my assumption that caltech would *not* fire an employee just because of a single letter. Technically, Carl was placed 'in a layoff position until october' to ensure that he was still covered for health insurance, at least for a few more months; GPS was aware of his condition(s) to some degree. Phase is silent for a moment. "I thanked her as best I could, assured her that I and many others appreciated the information, and that I would pass all of this on as quickly as possible. Her number, for those who might wish to talk to her themselves, is (818) 395-6912." He then finds a dark quiet corner, pulls out a sheaf of paper, and continues writing what appears to be a long letter. "I've still got a lot to think about . . ." he mutters. ok dpm -- David P. Murphy mailto:murphy@connor.datametrics.com (work) systems programmer mailto:dpm@access.digex.net (personal) http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm COGITO ERGO DISCLAIMUM ftp://ftp.access.digex.net/pub/access/dpm Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 16:44:00 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 48 Message-ID: <50hn8g$ktn@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159262 David P. Murphy (dpm@access4.digex.net) wrote: : steve@adam.com.au (stephen white) writes: : >Carl Lydick was completely correct when he pointed out that dpm was : >attempting a crude form of emotional blackmail. : PhaseOfTheMoon shakes his head tiredly, that once again the mere mention : of a personal tragedy is considered 'emotional blackmail', Was it the mere mention of a personal tragedy, or an attempt to dredge up "pity points"? : while the abusive : insults deliberately aimed at newcomers who failed to ask their questions : 'properly', with the intent of making them feel so unwelcome that they would : not post again, were felt to be morally justifiable. Er, here you are attributing motives to an action when you don't know the actor. Does this strike you as a good idea? : >If dpm was really concerned about the miscarriage, he would have been : >too depressed to respond to the thread at all. Or posted up a brief : >note stating his circumstances. : PhaseOfTheMoon looks up from his pepsi. "and what qualifies you to : diagnose me in this manner, mr. white? professional experience? a degree : in clinical psychology? your wife miscarried once? your finger reveals : no such information, and i can find no home page. Bringing up a personal tragedy in the middle of an argumentative thread is almost always an attempt at garnering pity points. About the only way I think you can do it without making a pity grab is to state that you are having a rough time, and you admit that you might be over-reacting to (X), but nevertheless (continuation of argument). Shrug. Or you could do what Carl did: state that you have a problem, explain carefully that it doesn't absolve you of even the least bit of responsibility for what you say or do, but request that people take note of your actions and let you know if/when they feel your actions may have been influenced by your problem. : "shall i apologize for not handling my grief in some manner acceptable : to you? Probably not, but you might owe yourself a little more honesty. Feeling bad doesn't excuse what you do. . . it might make it more understandable, but it doesn't absolve you of responsibility. Particularly, ending a nastygram with news of a tragedy is in poor taste. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!alph02.triumf.ca!shoppa ~From: shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) ~Newsgroups: misc.health.diabetes,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Question about Speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 18:10:22 GMT Organization: Tri-University Meson Facility ~Lines: 11 Message-ID: <50hsae$8d@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> ~References: <322AFAD5.344C@den.mmc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: alph02.triumf.ca ~Xref: news2.digex.net misc.health.diabetes:43583 alt.callahans:159265 Personally, I'm waiting for Betty Martini to claim that Carl died of Nutrasweet poisoning. I also strongly hope that there's a special place in hell for those who try to convince diabetics that they don't need to take medication, watch their diet, and check their blood sugars if they just take the "magic" combination of herbs and snake oil that they are selling. And the demon in charge of their never-ending agony will, I believe, look just like Carl. Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca, shoppa@almach.caltech.edu) Path: news2.digex.net!access1!dpm From: dpm@access1.digex.net (David P. Murphy) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 3 Sep 1996 14:30:40 -0400 Organization: Phase of the Moon Software Inc. Alexandria, VA Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <50hn8g$ktn@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159270 jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) writes: >David P. Murphy (dpm@access4.digex.net) wrote: >: abusive >: insults deliberately aimed at newcomers who failed to ask their questions >: 'properly', with the intent of making them feel so unwelcome that they would >: not post again > Er, here you are attributing motives to an action when you don't >know the actor. Does this strike you as a good idea? PhaseOfTheMoon puts down his pen. he mulls over possible responses for a while, then sighs and takes the low road. "I am not attributing motives. I am echoing the statements made by Carl himself. He was quite explicit about the reasons for his posts, not once but many times. Any comp.os.vms regular will be able to confirm this for you." ok dpm -- David P. Murphy mailto:murphy@connor.datametrics.com (work) systems programmer mailto:dpm@access.digex.net (personal) http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm COGITO ERGO DISCLAIMUM ftp://ftp.access.digex.net/pub/access/dpm Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.csd.net!ares.csd.net!mark From: mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 3 Sep 1996 17:31:46 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company Lines: 133 Message-ID: <50hq22$6uu@apollo.csd.net> References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: ares.csd.net Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159272 dpm@access4.digex.net (David P. Murphy) writes: >steve@adam.com.au (stephen white) writes: >>Carl Lydick was completely correct when he pointed out that dpm was >>attempting a crude form of emotional blackmail. [Snip...] > "no one at caltech has complained of 'flooding', so i see no reason >to assume that i did anything wrong. nor do i see any reason for you to >speak for GPS, to criticize the letter as 'crudely-composed', or to >describe anything in that letter as an 'insult'. in fact, please do >tell me what is insulting in that letter; i will absolutely stand behind >everything i wrote as either provable fact and/or carl's own stated goals. > Phase returns to his private conversations with various other patrons, >knowing that whiners rarely respond to specific requests. David P. Murphy >apologizes to the readers of comp.os.vms and sci.skeptic, assuring them >that any continuation of this topic will be kept within the bar. Hi Dave. I just took a brief look at your web page and the Lydick issue. Have I got this correct? You made your wife pregnant. The pregnancy failed. In the heat of battle, you uttered that fact and Carl commented upon it. You sent 35 letters to supervisors and coworkers at Caltech where Carl was employed. Carl allegedly was fired. Carl allegedly is deceased. Dave...let's call an end to this discussion about any letters, any justifications, any cause and effect. Please. Or I'll do my level best to rearrange this bar, with your head. Want another pepsi? Mark Tarka Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry 108 Gaines Hall Montana State University Bozeman, Montana 59717 Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mcsun!EU.net!Ireland.EU.net!maths.tcd.ie!maths.tcd.ie!not-for-mail From: dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 3 Sep 1996 20:37:00 +0100 Organization: The Ancient and Illuminated Order of Seers of Dublin 4 Lines: 12 Message-ID: <50i1cs$pe5@bell.maths.tcd.ie> References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> <50cl5c$o0c@apollo.csd.net> <50d83u$55k@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bell.maths.tcd.ie Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154747 sci.skeptic:205442 alt.callahans:159274 Camilla Cracchiolo writes: >As an aside (for another good man with diabetes who died young): Most >people hate their landlords, but I always really liked Frank Segal. >[...] Unlike many landlords, he was a decent human being who just couldn't see >himself putting a sick person out on the street, rent or no rent. Frank sounds like he was a very humane man. Derek -- Derek Bell dbell@maths.tcd.ie WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html "Donuts - is there _anything_ they can't do?" - Homer Simpson Path: news2.digex.net!access1!dpm ~From: dpm@access1.digex.net (David P. Murphy) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 16:13:01 -0400 Organization: Phase of the Moon Software Inc. Alexandria, VA ~Lines: 37 Message-ID: ~References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <50hq22$6uu@apollo.csd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159276 mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) writes: >Have I got this correct? >You made your wife pregnant. >The pregnancy failed. >In the heat of battle, you uttered that fact and Carl commented upon it. >You sent 35 letters to supervisors and coworkers at Caltech where Carl was >employed. >Carl allegedly was fired. >Carl allegedly is deceased. PhaseOfTheMoon looks over the list handed to him, crosses out the words 'allegedly', and hands it back. "These statements are all correct. you are, of course, leaving out a great deal, but individually i'm happy to verify each of them as facts." >Dave...let's call an end to this discussion about any letters, any >justifications, any cause and effect. >Please. >Or I'll do my level best to rearrange this bar, with your head. Phase looks puzzled. "If your newsreader lacks a killfile feature, i'll be happy to point you to one that supports killing by author or subject. i'm afraid i can't see any reason to refrain from continuing to discuss this subject." >Want another pepsi? "I _always_ want another pepsi. thanks, and what're you drinking?" ok dpm -- David P. Murphy mailto:murphy@connor.datametrics.com (work) systems programmer mailto:dpm@access.digex.net (personal) http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm COGITO ERGO DISCLAIMUM ftp://ftp.access.digex.net/pub/access/dpm Path: news2.digex.net!access1!dpm ~From: dpm@access1.digex.net (David P. Murphy) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 16:29:49 -0400 Organization: Phase of the Moon Software Inc. Alexandria, VA ~Lines: 29 Message-ID: ~References: <322C1C42.3E9B@interlog.com> <50hqdj$c4c@news.ro.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159277 === FAIRFAX, VA 15:11 Tuesday 3 September 1996 === A loud *beep*beep*beep* emanates from PhaseOfTheMoon's jacket. He somehow looks both apologetic (towards the patrons nearby, in case the noise interrupted their conversation) and exasperated (since his wife already called once today) as he opens up his cell phone, answering with a simple 'murphy'. The annoyance disappears immediately as he grabs a nearby spoon and bangs it loudly against someone's glass. But he ignores the rest of the bar's inhabitants as they watch him grunt monosyllabically into the tiny microphone. "Uh-huh. Right. I see. Okay. Okay. Uh-huh. Thank you very much. I appreciate the call." Phase looks around. "That was Jean Grinols (administrator at caltech, see previous post) with some additional news. Carl is being cremated in california tomorrow (wednesday 4 sep); there will be no service of any kind at that time; the ashes will be flown to baltimore (i assume that's where is sister lives); there is still no word on autopsy results." He pauses, then adds, "Really is considerate of her to call back like that." He again returns to the Letter Which Will Apparently Never Be Finished. ok dpm -- David P. Murphy mailto:murphy@connor.datametrics.com (work) systems programmer mailto:dpm@access.digex.net (personal) http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm COGITO ERGO DISCLAIMUM ftp://ftp.access.digex.net/pub/access/dpm Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news4.agis.net!agis!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.PBI.net!usenet ~From: The Polymath ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:12:55 -0700 Organization: Polymath Enterprises ~Lines: 41 Message-ID: <322C8337.B9C@pacbell.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> ~Reply-To: polymath@pacbell.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-206-171-250-42.vntrcs.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159281 Leslie wrote: >On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:46:07 -0700 in alt.callahans, Looking Wolf said: >:"Diabetes can cause mood swings, and even mild personality disorders, as >:the brain is continually short-changed in its food supply. Also, Carl >:had congestive heart disease, I have been told, and was scheduled for a >:sextuple bypass operation. He must have been in incredible pain. That >:pain, combined with whatever medication he was taking, could have caused >:long-term problems, including his general irascibility. > >"Nice theory, except for the *tiny* problem that he WASN'T IN PAIN, >not that I knew of anyway. (Polymath? Soprano? Did he complain >at all of pain that you knew of?)... It's very difficult to say. There are many ways to feel lousy that don't entail what is commonly thought of as "pain." Carl never complained about his infirmities in my presence, though he frequently had to deal with their consequences. In short, I don't know whether he was in pain per se. I know he couldn't walk fast or far without frequent stops to catch his breath. I know low blood sugar could make him irritable and that sometimes showed up in his posts (he admitted it on at least one occasion). I know he frequently pricked a finger tip to test his blood sugar level and administered a shot of insulin as necessary. (That does not strike me as painless). I once saw him suffering from nausea and vomiting so continuous and severe that Soprano literally kidnapped him and took him to a hospital emergency room, though he kept insisting it wasn't necessary. I'm sure he had other unpleasantness to deal with that didn't show on the surface. He once remarked there was hardly a symptom in the entire medical lexicon that diabetes couldn't produce in some circumstances. I suspect he suffered from many of them at various times. He wasn't given to constant complaining. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP) polymath@pacbell.net <<<===PLEASE NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS http://www.babcom.com/polymath <<<===AND NEW HOME PAGE URL (818) 882-6309 Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!news.dx.net!news.accessus.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-atl-21.sprintlink.net!metro.atlanta.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.PBI.net!usenet ~From: The Polymath ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:22:45 -0700 Organization: Polymath Enterprises ~Lines: 29 Message-ID: <322C8585.18C@pacbell.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> ~Reply-To: polymath@pacbell.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-206-171-250-42.vntrcs.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159283 Looking Wolf wrote: >Leslie wrote: >>:"One last thought: I read that Carl refused the bypass operation, 'for >>:reasons known only to himself'. ... >>... His major reason >>for postponing the operation was, in fact, posted by him here, in June. ... >... I was quoting SOMEONE >ELSE! I did not just pull this off the top of my head. So his >reasoning was not unknown. Yet again, I was accepting what was said by >people who seemed to know more about him than I did." In fact, I believe you were quoting me. Without going back to check, I probably said something to the effect that his reasons were _likely_ known only to himself. Subsequent posts corrected my misconception. His reasons were known, but not by the person who _should_ have known them. Well, StM's spirit lives on. Yet another flame fest has been started in his name. Maybe we should make it an annual event: "The Annual Speaker to Minerals Memorial Flame Fest and Weenie Roast." (-:{ -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP) polymath@pacbell.net <<<===PLEASE NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS http://www.babcom.com/polymath <<<===AND NEW HOME PAGE URL (818) 882-6309 Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.ksu.ksu.edu!hptemp1.cc.umr.edu!imorgan.math.umr.edu!user ~From: imorgan@umr.edu (Ilene H. Morgan) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 13:20:33 -0600 Organization: University of Missouri-Rolla ~Lines: 85 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: imorgan.math.umr.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159278 This is about the fourth attempt at a reply to Leslie. The first three came out too long and too scathing. Ilene does not want to start or propagate a flame war, but she has had to bite her virtual tongue so hard, and so often, that, were she biting her real tongue, it would be a bloody pulp by now. In article <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: >"He was complex and complicated and just plain didn't *think* the same >way most other folks do, although most people tried to fit him into >a category they were more familiar with, causing them to misunderstand >him by quite a wide margin. "Leslie, I'm not saying that my opinion should influence you in any way. But, for your information, whenever you say something like this (which is pretty damned often), it comes across to me as incredibly patronizing and smug. I think you should consider the possibility that some other people understood StM better than you gave them credit for--perhaps better than you." In article <50a3p2$ll6@pentagon.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: >"He didn't care in the slightest about being liked or not, anyway. >He had his priorities, and he knew what they were, and he held >to them come hell or high water--and he paid the cost for it, too. >If that cost had been too high, or if he wasn't achieving what he >wanted to acheive, he would've changed tactics." "No, he didn't care about being liked--but he *did* care about being respected intellectually. I maintain (YMMV, and all that) that (lately) he was more interested in winning arguments than in establishing what was correct. In my opinion, this made him a hypocrite. A big one. But, as you say, he had no reason to change his tactics, because almost everyone would say something like, 'Yeah, he's hard on people, but he keeps us honest' or 'I don't care if he *is* right most of the time, he shouldn't treat people like that'. This is exactly what he wanted. "Recently, I read some archived posts from December 1993, and the StM I saw was very different. I think, if December 1993 StM would have read some of the posts by 1996 StM, he would have been horrified. "IMHO, what 1996 StM needed was for a friend to notice the deterioration and break through the barricade of rationalizations and denial. That's hard, though. It's much easier to defend your friends than it is to confront them. (I'm not claiming that the outcome would have been different; there's no way to know whether anything would have changed significantly.) "As you know, StM took a very pronounced dislike to me. I think it's because I came too close to some truths that he just didn't want to acknowledge. Maybe I'm completely wrong. I guess we'll never know." In article <50b2j1$frt@xanadu.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: >On 31 Aug 1996 16:11:43 -0700 in alt.callahans, >Pat Kight said: >: He certainly never flamed me, or belittled me, or >: made me feel like an idiot. >"Because you didn't *argue* with him, you *listened* to him, and debated >things with him in a thoughtful, logical way." "This is bullshit, Leslie. I tried to think of some other way to word this, but nothing else expressed my opinion adequately, so there it is. I can't stop you from spouting bullshit of this sort, but, if you think that everyone who listened to StM and debated things with him in a thoughtful, logical way escaped his flames, then you're living in a fantasy world. "It seems to me that, as unfortunate as the whole StM situation has been, it would be criminally wasteful to refuse to learn anything from what has happened. "Leslie, you once told me that I was a good influence in alt.callahans. I'm not asking you to agree with anything I've said, but, if you have *any* respect for my judgment, I hope you'll think about it." Ilene cc: Leslie -- Ilene H. Morgan, Ph. D. |"Moral excellence comes about as a Assistant Professor of Mathematics| result of habit. We become just University of Missouri-Rolla | by doing just acts, temperate by e-mail: imorgan@umr.edu | doing temperate acts, brave by Standard disclaimers apply. <*> | doing brave acts." --Aristotle Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news4.agis.net!agis!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.PBI.net!usenet ~From: The Polymath ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 14:14:54 -0700 Organization: Polymath Enterprises ~Lines: 16 Message-ID: <322C9FCE.1CA6@pacbell.net> ~References: <322608B3.33A2@pacbell.net> ~Reply-To: polymath@pacbell.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-206-171-250-4.vntrcs.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) To: "David P. Murphy" ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159289 David P. Murphy wrote: >"I just finished speaking to Jean Grinols, who is the 'Division Administrator' >for caltech's Division of Geological and Planetary Sciences. ... >... She ... did not hesitate to answer my questions, which i hereby summarize." [...] Thanks, David. That puts a lot of rumor and misinformation to rest. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP) polymath@pacbell.net <<<===PLEASE NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS http://www.babcom.com/polymath <<<===AND NEW HOME PAGE URL (818) 882-6309 ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!ap-seans.uchicago.edu!seanr ~From: seanr@fs-gate.uchicago.edu (Starknight) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker X-Nntp-Posting-Host: ap-seans.uchicago.edu Message-ID: ~Lines: 15 ~Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: University of Chicago/Comptrollers Office X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #1] ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50a9fd$oc8@pentagon.io.com> <50afos$ibe@news1.radix.net> <50g0eh$nra@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:36:37 GMT ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159288 In article <50g0eh$nra@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) writes: >we've mourned him all weekend, starknight and i, and i will go on >mourning him for a long, long time...i'd give just about anything to >have him call me a blonde airhead bimbo again. Starknight checks to make sure he's securely stowed StM's backpack, on the off-chance he might need to find a 2x4. >we gotta remember, shared pain is lessened, shared joy is increased. >thus do we refute entropy." "True, love, true. Thank you for sharing..." Starknight Damn, you could build an observatory with this much lumber... Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!lerc.nasa.gov!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ns.mcs.kent.edu!tombstone.kent.edu!kent!spendlet ~From: spendlet@kent.kent.edu (Samantha Pendleton) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 20:17:39 GMT Organization: Kent State University Information Systems ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: <50i3p3$75n@tombstone.kent.edu> ~References: <50f3h6$661@news.cais.com> <50fb6a$4c@news.acns.nwu.edu> <50hd0u$429@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kent.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159291 John DeLaughter (jed@juand.earth.nwu.edu) wrote: : agwin@mail.utexas.edu (Anne Gwin) writes: : > : >No, no, please stay! Anybody who tells me where to find "S-N" (which isn't : >on the greatest hits CD! Argh!) is Very Very Welcome! In fact I will : >happiL-Y buy you a drink. : Thank you, but I prefer to hide in the background, unless I can be os : some use. (I may, however take you up on that drink - being a grad : student, I *live* for/by coffee and alcohol, not necessarily in that : order...) But, for now, I need to be "learning Chinese, said : Werner Von Braun" (i.e., I've got to get back to my research). : John DeLaughter When you have the time, please accept a drink on (whoops, I meant to say _from_, really I did!) me, as well, in thanks for reminding me of years past. You see, my younger sister recently and accurately accused our parents of having warped us irreperably by raising us on a steady diet of Tom Lehrer, Spike Jones, and Tiny Tim from infancy. For a while I thought I had recovered, but lately I've begun listening to country music . . . . surely a troubling sign. :) --Kathy Fitz Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!news From: Brad Spencer Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: Re: Carl Lydick Date: 3 Sep 1996 22:33:24 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison Lines: 19 Message-ID: <50ibnk$3csc@news.doit.wisc.edu> References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com> <501ij6$5ds@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bert03.chem.wisc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; OSF1 V3.2 alpha) X-URL: news:501ij6$5ds@nntpd.lkg.dec.com Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154765 everhart@star.enet.dec.com (Glenn C. Everhart) wrote: > >I think that in memory of the good Carl did here, we should discount much >of the bitterness and anger in his last postings as coming from a dying >man, in much (but private) pain and illness, and recall how each of us >might speak under such stress, particularly if we had no shoulders to May I suggest that in his memory we also try to emulate the good side of his presence in comp.os.vms? He was wonderfully thorough in his postings and obviously did THINK, as he frequently admonished others to do. There were only a few questions in this group that he and I both answered but I was impressed that his answers were always better than mine. Even on what would seem to be very simple questions. -*- There is only one business: satisfying customers. mailto:brad@chem.wisc.edu Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail ~From: marypcb@aol.com (MaryPCB) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 13:10:19 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) ~Lines: 5 ~Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <50f4dr$qsk@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ~References: <50baus$jps@xanadu.io.com> ~Reply-To: marypcb@aol.com (MaryPCB) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159302 >StM 101 we should write it. a course in basic logic is really useful ;-) MerryTail Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news.nap.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.izzy.net!izzy5!sewiv ~From: sewiv@izzy5.izzy.net (Sanford E. Walke IV) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 16:38:37 GMT Organization: Isthmus Corporation ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <50f2id$muu@izzy4.izzy.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50b8rt$l5u@nadine.teleport.com> <50cbqt$8ss@news.cais.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: izzy5.izzy.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159300 Michael D. Bartman (mike@cais.com) wrote: : randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) wrote: : >"'I looked death in the face today/I saw him in the mirror/And he simply : >smiled/He told me not to worry/He told me just to take my time.' : A very large figure near the end of the bar looks up from his : conversation at this and adds his own favorite on this subject, "Death : tugs at my ear and says: 'Live, I am coming.'" Which brings to mind the addition I saw on a bathroom wall: "Then he rolled over and went to sleep, the bastard." -- Sandy sewiv@izzy.net "Fatty tissue, convolutions, chemicals and tiny lightning....this is all my head has to work with, so I cut it a lot of slack." -- JT I don't speak for anyone but myself, and sometimes not even that. Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 17:42:24 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 27 Message-ID: <50f6a0$sme@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159306 A couple of people have posted that Speaker was lacking in human qualities. One time when I was depressed because of my untreated ADD, I was sure that I had something besides "just" depression. I was right, but my doctors weren't telling me everything. My GP said "you're not diabetic". Speaker said "She couldn't be 100% sure without a glucose tolerance test." I asked my doctor; she said that there was no need for one. Now, when you're depressed, and getting desperate, that kind of answer is dangerous to get. It means "I'm not going to give you help". (Note: if she'd said "John, because of this, this, this and this, I can be 99.9% sure you're not diabetic." that wouldn't have been bad; as it was, she wasn't giving me an answer, she was giving me a refusal to prove the answer to me.) Carl told me he had a spare glucometer; he told me he knew where to get some reagent grade glucose; he told me he'd mail 'em both to me (He didn't even ask for postage) along with instructions for the test. Were we "friends"? Only insofar as we'd probably both gotten to the point that we knew what the other would fight about. Me, I have a feeling that he would have done it for anyone who'd asked him for information about something this important. He had a human side, and a good heart; he just didn't know it where most people'd expect he would. Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!news.dx.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!metro.atlanta.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!cs.utk.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeeder.gi.net!news.mid.net!news.dra.com!news.starnet.net!newsreader.wustl.edu!zagi.wustl.edu!jcorbett ~From: Jon 'Souichirou-kun' Corbett ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:26:28 -0500 Organization: Washington University in St. Louis, MO USA ~Lines: 37 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zagi.wustl.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jcorbett@zagi.wustl.edu In-Reply-To: <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com> ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159297 After a long-caking of dust, and a long silence, Sou-chan wakes up in Callahans... reading the trilogy for the first time only last night after lurking (often) and posting (very rarely) off and on over the last two or three years... to see this... a beloved patron... "Mike, give me my usual...." Sou-chan slips a crisp new dollar bill up on the counter... and out comes an Irish coffee... Sou-chan steps up to the chalk line. "A toast. To the most hardheaded, stubborn sonofabitch I've ever virtually met. I'll miss you. I think I'll stick around awhile now... I think I need the Place for a while..." Sou-chan swallows a quick sob, downs the drink a little too quickly, and hurtles the glass as hard as he can into the center of the fireplace, watching the glass spatter out, even of Mike's fireplace... ****CRASH**** Sou-chan walks back to the bar for another drink, and watches what goes on here at the Place... ... -- Jon 'Souichirou-kun' Corbett |"When personal freedom's being | jcorbett@math.wustl.edu |abused, you have to move to | http://lado.wustl.edu/~jcorbett/ |limit it" -- Bill Clinton | ------------------------------------------------------------------ "Math is harder than male-female relationships" -- Usagi Tsukino Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!news.dx.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!metro.atlanta.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 23:48:54 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <50ig56$pnq@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <322C1C42.3E9B@interlog.com> <50hqdj$c4c@news.ro.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159308 > Phase looks around. "That was Jean Grinols (administrator at caltech, >see previous post) with some additional news. Carl is being cremated in >california tomorrow (wednesday 4 sep); there will be no service of any kind >at that time; the ashes will be flown to baltimore (i assume that's where is >sister lives); there is still no word on autopsy results." He pauses, >then adds, "Really is considerate of her to call back like that." kitten lifts a silent glass to her friend, and to her brother who burned on sept 4, 1989 (it hurts...i thought i was getting better, but it hurts so bad) -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!newsfeeder.gi.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.stealth.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!emetine.phr.utexas.edu!user ~From: ACombs@mail.utexas.edu (Alan B. Combs) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Speaker Threads (Endless Proliferation) ~Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 18:21:31 -0500 Organization: College of Pharmacy, Univ. of Texas ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> <50e3lp$soj@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: emetine.phr.utexas.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159304 Earlier last week, Leslie was commented about participating in the last Speaker thread. Based on the proliferation of Speaker threads, there may never be a last one. Clearly, Carl's influence will not soon be over. Along with the inevitable thoughts over mortality and grief, Alan has been marveling over the complexity of his character and the almost unbelievable variety of response he generated -- in life and in death. "The King is dead!" "Long live the King!" (Now, who will that be?) cc. Leslie -- Alan B. Combs College of Pharmacy University of Texas Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail ~From: marypcb@aol.com (MaryPCB) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 13:17:55 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) ~Lines: 8 ~Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <50f4s3$r3d@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ~References: <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> ~Reply-To: marypcb@aol.com (MaryPCB) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159322 >is no-one willing to be a bit of a bastard in >memory of Carl? I think he would have wanted it that way I'd have thought the logicfest and near-flames honour him nicely Carl wanted people to understand (and agree with him) I think we've all admitted he'd qualify as a bastard. but he was worth it. the world may not be diminished, but we are... and what is the world but us? oh, and the other few million sods ;-) Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news4.agis.net!agis!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail ~From: elcabalero@aol.com (ElCabalero) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 19:07:35 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) ~Lines: 24 ~Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <50idnn$76v@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ~References: <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159316 In article <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) writes: >most folks who didn't like him are trying to show respect for those of >us who did. (i could be wrong and i don't want to claim to know how >other people feel....but that's my take on the situation.)" > "I have said what I thought of Carl, in other posts. I have softened it, to some degree, for that very reason. Much as I disliked him, many that I respect felt differently. I will not add to their pain by taking cheap shots now. It wouldn't make me feel any better, and it might make them feel worse. What I have said is much the same as I would have had Carl returned to the group, shorn of uneccessary insult and illustrative drama." "Call me chicken if you like. This very thing is where I part company from Carl's 'truth at any price' viewpoint. I refuse to hurt the living, to slake my hatred of the dead." The Uncaged Tiger Regards, The Gentleman Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 14:57:45 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 46 Message-ID: <50fe7p$3nr@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <501m5l$f0h@medea.gp.usm.edu> <50999v$r1i@izzy4.izzy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159338 On 31 Aug 1996 07:56:47 -0400 in alt.callahans, Tom Smith said: : "But you." Tom's gaze, brighter for the tears, fixes on DJ. : "You *walk to the fucking moon* for him. Do you know how deeply that : touched me? Because that's not one-thousandth as deeply as he must : have touched you." "The reason he touched me," Leslie says, tears standing bright in her eyes, too. "Was because of the childlike innocence I sometimes glimpsed in him. The child who spoke of viewing the world around him with a sense of wonder. Bear even described him once just that way...that he lit up like a little kid when he talked about something he was interested in. "And as God is my witness, there was no evil in him. No malice. I would have seen it, I would have sensed it. Which made him a better man than me, frankly, and for that he won my respect." "One of my all-time favorite memories is from long ago. I myself started a thread to discuss StM's language (though I was not so crass as to mention him by name; but of course what I'd said couldn't have applied to anyone else). The debate didn't really last very long, but it must have gotten (though I can't quite remember any details) less than civil, because Danger Mouse stepped in to scold both of us. (You remember that, Jez--?) "And StM said, 'Er, what made Danger Mouse think we were fighting?'" Leslie blinks back tears. "The really precious part was, he wasn't kidding. He honestly didn't know. I cracked up laughing. (So did DM. In private...) But it proved to me just exactly how he himself viewed his own actions. He wasn't fighting with *me*, but with *what I'd said*. And that made all the difference in the world, to my way of thinking." Leslie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!mcsun!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail ~From: laredith@aol.com (LAREDITH) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 17:30:43 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) ~Lines: 15 ~Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <50i823$529@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159321 In article <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) writes: > >kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called >speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl >was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone >out there can help, please do." > >she raises her glass in a silent toast. I am sorry for his death. I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know what. I hope he is happier now. Larry Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.wildstar.net!news.ececs.uc.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!news.dacom.co.kr!news.postech.ac.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!agate!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail ~From: elcabalero@aol.com (ElCabalero) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 18:37:56 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) ~Lines: 64 ~Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <50ic04$6og@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ~References: NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159314 In article , dpm@access2.digex.net (David P. Murphy) writes: >PhaseOfTheMoon quietly walks in and leans against a wall unnoticed. >He watches and listens, astonished, to the many people who mourn >the apparent passing of Speaker. Phase has never been here before, >never even known the place existed, until he heard voices inside >as he was passing by, discussing "Carl Lydick". He is impressed >by the maturity of the bar's inhabitants, and is not quite sure >what to do. The only thing certain in his mind is that this was >not the desired outcome. He hesitantly clears his throat and >asks, to no one in particular, "Who knows what really happened >about his job at CalTech?" > >He waits for an answer, wondering . . . did his letter to the >staff at GPS have anything to so with Carl's termination? > "Um, excuse me?" A medium sized tiger sidles up next to the newcomer, an empty bottle clutched in an anachronistic hand. "You probably don't want hear someone say they no how you feel, but the fact is, I do." "I never actually sent a letter to his superiors, but I seriously planned to at one point. I went so far as to get the names and email addresses of the appropriate persons." "I've thought about that, ever since I heard that he lost his job. I think about it even more, now." "You're wondering how much you may have been responsible for Carl's death, right? Terrible feeling. Bad enough to make a concious decision to kill someone, to have it happen by accident, as a indirect result of something you did..." "Don't. Not because of any bullshit argument that you were only one of many. (And you were. At least a dozen people that I know of have written such letters.) But because even if it was your letter that broke the camel's back, and got Carl fired, and that is the cause of his death, you still should not feel the weight of that guilt." "Because any such karma belongs to Carl." There are a few murmurs at this, many intakes of breath. "Think about it. Carl, whatever else, was *not* stupid. Over the course of years, he chose to be who he was, write the way he did. Many times people complained, and probably more than a few were discussed with him by his superiors." "He chose to continue. Say it was stubbornness, say it was bravery, say it was meaness, say it was any damn thing you like. But don't get so guilt-ridden that you start hunting for blame. Somehow, I think Carl might have had some choice words for that." "Here. Let me buy you a drink." The Uncaged Tiger Regards, The Gentleman Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.wildstar.net!news.ececs.uc.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail ~From: elcabalero@aol.com (ElCabalero) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 18:52:44 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) ~Lines: 79 ~Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <50icrs$6vm@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ~References: <50a3p2$ll6@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159313 In article <50a3p2$ll6@pentagon.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) writes: >On 31 Aug 1996 08:23:38 -0400 in alt.callahans, >David P. Murphy said: >: and someone who used >: the net as much as speaker should have realized the picture he was >: painting. > >"How could he not realize, what with people telling him this over >and over and over again through the years? He got called as many >names as he called others." > "More. Carl was not very creative in his epithets, most of the time." "In truth, I think I know why Carl hated me. I will venture it only as my opinion, but I will lay it out:" "Carl suffered from a severe medical condition, with effects that were both life-threatening, and mood altering. Never the less, he refused to allow himself any slack for this." "Unfortunately, he held me to the same standard." "In many ways, I am not well, mentally. The only thing that any two neurologists have ever been in agreement on about me is that my central nervous system is royally fucked. Physical trauma, chemical insult, a variety of illegal drugs of questionable purity, and a variety of prescriptions of doubtful effectiveness, have combined to create a plethora of problems. Physical twitches, aphasia, and a number of effects from having approximately 20% of your brain cells killed, can make one qualify as a little strange. Indeed, most people with damage as extensive as mine are to be found only in state hospitals, and are popularly known as 'Burnouts'. "By all rights, I should be dead. Short of that, I should be a vegatable. In spite of all this, I maintain a fairly normal life, and make a good living as a programmer. I have fought long and hard to recover my faculties, and have about as much back as I am like to get." "I've never heard a satisfactory explanation of how I can have so much trouble with traditional logic, and yet deal well with the extremely rigorous logic demanded by computers. The best I've heard is that although traditional routes of access to the logic centers of my left brain are semi-functional at best, the creative process of programming is seated in the right, and this creative center still has access to them." "Regardless of the cause, my logic frequently leaves something to be desired. And, because I so frequently find myself knowing things with any knowledge of their provenance, I have learned not to question things I feel to be true, without being able to explain why they are true. If I refused to admit thoughts of this type, I would be simply incapable of functionng." "This also means that I sometimes believe things to be true that I cannot prove. Whether they are actually true or not, didn't matter to Carl. My failure to acount for them was unacceptable." "Carl apparently didn't feel that my medical problems were any excuse. Not having allowed his own to serve as one, he would not allow mine to. Indeed, he refused to discuss them with me at all." >: then again, perhaps he really and truly didn't give a >: damn what that picture was. > >"He didn't care in the slightest about being liked or not, anyway. >He had his priorities, and he knew what they were, and he held >to them come hell or high water--and he paid the cost for it, too. >If that cost had been too high, or if he wasn't achieving what he >wanted to acheive, he would've changed tactics." "Perhaps. The phrase 'Collateral Damage' springs to mind. His absolute dedication to truth, I can admire. His absolute ruthlessness it its defense, I can't." The Uncaged Tiger Regards, The Gentleman Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!newsfeeder.gi.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail ~From: elcabalero@aol.com (ElCabalero) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 22:07:33 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) ~Lines: 16 ~Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <50io95$c54@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ~References: <50icrs$6vm@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159352 In article <50icrs$6vm@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, elcabalero@aol.com (ElCabalero) writes: >from having approximately 20% of your brain cells killed, can make one "A correction is needed here. 20% of my brain is not functioning properly. There is a test, I forget the name, that shows the glucose absortion rate in various parts of the brain. Most are symmetrical, mine is extremely assymetrical. I have been led to believe that almost any assymetry is a sign of dysfunction." UT Regards, The Gentleman Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 00:27:11 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 10 Message-ID: <50iicv$rfd@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <322C1C42.3E9B@interlog.com> <50hqdj$c4c@news.ro.com> <50ig56$pnq@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159318 comp.os.vms has asked that people quit crossposting there. kitten -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 06:26:01 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 200 Message-ID: <50jp09$pon@bermuda.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bermuda.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159382 On Tue, 03 Sep 1996 13:20:33 -0600 in alt.callahans, Ilene H. Morgan said: : In article <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: : >"He was complex and complicated and just plain didn't *think* the same : >way most other folks do, although most people tried to fit him into : >a category they were more familiar with, causing them to misunderstand : >him by quite a wide margin. : : "Leslie, I'm not saying that my opinion should influence you in any way. : But, for your information, whenever you say something like this (which is : pretty damned often), it comes across to me as incredibly patronizing and : smug. "I suspect--I don't know, but I suspect--you wouldn't feel that way, if we were talking face to face, because my *actual* tone-of-voice in the above is 'matter-of-fact.' I don't know if that makes a difference or not, though. I say it matter of factly, because that's very close to exactly the way he phrased it, himself. And he was in a position to observe whether or not people understood him, and to observe the patterns in how he got misunderstood. He even posted a rather lengthy post on that very topic, giving a couple of examples of typical ways in which he didn't fit into the 'box' people wanted to fit him into." : I think you should consider the possibility that some other people : understood StM better than you gave them credit for--perhaps better than : you." "Er, where did I say *no* one understood him? I did say 'most didn't' though; perhaps that might have been better as 'some,' for it most surely *was* true of some. And I don't actually claim to understand *everything* about him, myself, because there was a lot I didn't know. But, what I did now, I was very sure of. "Try to remember, you can't hear my actual tone of voice." : In article <50a3p2$ll6@pentagon.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: : : >"He didn't care in the slightest about being liked or not, anyway. : >He had his priorities, and he knew what they were, and he held : >to them come hell or high water--and he paid the cost for it, too. : >If that cost had been too high, or if he wasn't achieving what he : >wanted to acheive, he would've changed tactics." : : "No, he didn't care about being liked--but he *did* care about being : respected intellectually. I maintain (YMMV, and all that) that (lately) : he was more interested in winning arguments than in establishing what was : correct. In my opinion, this made him a hypocrite. A big one. "I think he thought he *was* correct. I'm not sure if this contradicts what you're saying, but I do know that if he had *any* leg to stand on in an argument, he wouldn't give in, or give up, and he was always that way." But, : as you say, he had no reason to change his tactics, because almost : everyone would say something like, 'Yeah, he's hard on people, but : he keeps us honest' or 'I don't care if he *is* right most of the time, : he shouldn't treat people like that'. This is exactly what he wanted. "Also, his flames were getting him the results he wanted, as usual, too. People either got a lot more careful to check facts, or to think harder, or they shut up. And when people continued in the face of flames, his flames at least assured him that nobody anywhere could possibly mistake him for agreeing with the other person, which was rather of paramount concern to him at all times." : "Recently, I read some archived posts from December 1993, and the StM : I saw was very different. I think, if December 1993 StM would have read : some of the posts by 1996 StM, he would have been horrified. Leslie looks very troubled. : "IMHO, what 1996 StM needed was for a friend to notice the deterioration : and break through the barricade of rationalizations and denial. That's : hard, though. It's much easier to defend your friends than it is to : confront them. (I'm not claiming that the outcome would have been different; : there's no way to know whether anything would have changed significantly.) "I didn't have much hesitation in confronting StM. But I wouldn't do it unless I had a *lot* of weight on my side. I didn't dismiss your concerns out of hand, Ilene. It wasn't that it didn't occur to me that I was too close to the subject, and too emotionally involved. It was just that I couldn't *see* what you were seeing. Especially since, sometimes, his email commentaries to me on a thread were the picture of reasonability, even when I suspect you would have labelled his behaviour in his posts 'hypocritical' and 'signs of deterioration.' "And insofar as anyone having an effect on him goes, that assumes that people whose judgement he trusted, whom he cared about, were aware of what was going on on the net, in the first place. I really have not much of a clue as to how much my opinion of him did or did not affect him. I know he trusted me to an extent, but I couldn't tell you just what that extent *was*." : "As you know, StM took a very pronounced dislike to me. I think it's : because I came too close to some truths that he just didn't want to : acknowledge. Maybe I'm completely wrong. I guess we'll never know." "I think it was your over-all track record, actually. By the time you got to the point of bringing up his apparent changes in his argument styles, you'd managed to pretty well discredit yourself with him. He simply blew you off, in other words. Perhaps, if you had provided some evidence from the posts of the past, and contrasted them with parts of current posts illustrating the difference, you could have gotten his attention. But, maybe not even then, I don't know." : In article <50b2j1$frt@xanadu.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: : >On 31 Aug 1996 16:11:43 -0700 in alt.callahans, : >Pat Kight said: : >: He certainly never flamed me, or belittled me, or : >: made me feel like an idiot. : >"Because you didn't *argue* with him, you *listened* to him, and debated : >things with him in a thoughtful, logical way." : : "This is bullshit, Leslie. "You're right. I even knew there was something not right about that bit, but," Leslie says with a small grimace. "I didn't think it through enough before sending it out." : I tried to think of some other way to word : this, but nothing else expressed my opinion adequately, so there it is. : I can't stop you from spouting bullshit of this sort, but, if you think : that everyone who listened to StM and debated things with him in a : thoughtful, logical way escaped his flames, then you're living in a : fantasy world. "Is that the same as calling me delusional? I remember StM used that word on you quite frequently. But, you're right. A lot of it had to do with track records, I believe. He was more apt to give someone with a good track record the benefit of the doubt, and perhaps one or two extra chances to explain themselves, before flaming, and if someone had a bad track record, he abandoned 'teaching' in favor of 'confronting,' figuring he might as well skip the polite stage, because he hadn't observed politeness to get anywhere with them in the past, anyway. "Mostly, what I found worked like a charm on him was to grant him at least *some* partial validity in what he was saying; demonstrating that you did *see* his point, and why that point was important to him, went a long way (I think) in reassuring him that you were actually listening to him, and thinking about what he'd said, even if you disagreed with his point (which I did, on more than one occasion). "It's when people would point-blank refuse to see his point at all that he got his back up. (Unless the subject was such that they could prove conclusively that he was in the wrong.) And, of course, even people being as thoughtful and logical as they could could still be wrong (bearing in mind that we're working with StM's idea of 'being wrong,' which not infrequently included things that most other people wouldn't have even noticed, or put much if any weight on if they did notice)." : "It seems to me that, as unfortunate as the whole StM situation has been, : it would be criminally wasteful to refuse to learn anything from what has : happened. "I'm not sure what there is to learn? How to handle another Kzin, if one walks in?" : "Leslie, you once told me that I was a good influence in alt.callahans. : I'm not asking you to agree with anything I've said, but, if you have *any* : respect for my judgment, I hope you'll think about it." Leslie is quiet for a long moment. "I'm glad," she says, finally. "If he refused to consider the possibility that his mind was being affected by his diabetes. Although I quashed Looking Wolf's theory, I was not unware that this can happen. I don't know if it did happen, in StM's case; he seemed his usual self to me in email, despite what might have been happening in public posts. Hence my doubt. The evidence conflicts. "Your theory had it that it was 'emotional stress' affecting him; Looking Wolf brought up the theory of actual physical damage. Of the two, I have to grant LW's theory as being the more likely one to be true. So you see, you may have misinterpreted him quite entirely, after all, Ilene, just as he insisted you had. "And, if, *if*, it was true...if what you saw as his 'deterioration' really was in fact true... "Then I'm glad he denied it. Perverse and hypocritical though that might very well be, that denial would've lengthened his life. Leslie pauses to cast a glance towards the Uncaged Tiger. "Because I know he'd rather be dead, than to live with a mind and memory he couldn't trust." "Of course, there is always the more simple explanation that he'd simply spread himself too thin, and that his health wasn't up to the energy required to keep his mind focussed; a question of being overtired, not of any actual physical problem with his mind, or interference of emotions on his thinking. "But in that case, I do think it would have taken one heck of a LOT of evidence in order to convince him to slow down, and take it easier." Leslie. Who naturally prefers that last theory, of course. CC: Ilene. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 06:30:56 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 10 Message-ID: <50jp9g$pqv@bermuda.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50a9fd$oc8@pentagon.io.com> <50afos$ibe@news1.radix.net> <50g0eh$nra@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bermuda.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159383 On 3 Sep 1996 01:08:33 GMT in alt.callahans, barbara trumpinski said: : leslie, love...it's not going to do you a goddamn bit of good to : defend speaker now, any more than it did when he was alive. don't let : the people who didn't love/like/respect him mess up your grieving : process...that truly would be counterproductive. "But, kitten..." Leslie points out. "This appears to *be* my grieving process..." Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!op.net!en.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.usit.net!news ~From: jmiles@usit.net (Janet D. Miles) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 02:48:57 GMT Organization: yeah right ~Lines: 76 Message-ID: <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> ~Reply-To: jmiles@usit.net NNTP-Posting-Host: bway-slip91.dynamic.usit.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/16.227 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159346 On 1 Sep 1996 03:33:58 -0500, in alt.callahans leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: >On 30 Aug 1996 13:08:13 GMT in alt.callahans, >Chris Barnhart said: >: Leslie, you seem to suffer from the same condition as StM suffered. >: EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, whether based in fact or not. > >"Entitled? Sure, everyone has the right to freedom of speech, and they >can voice their opinions if they want. But if opinions aren't based in >fact, they're worthless, aren't they? Leslie, I'm sorry, but I disagree with you here. Veering away, for the moment, from the issue of Speaker, his personality, and his tactics, I have lots of opinions that aren't based on provable fact but that are useful to me. I recognize that they may not be useful to others, and I generally try not to press those opinions on others, but I still hold them. Some examples (set up as columns, please read with a monospace font if possible): Opinion Utility ======= =========== Tripe is disgusting I've tried it, I don't like it, I won't spend money on it again Steven Brust is a better Given X amount of money, I'll buy series writer than Piers books by Brust before books by Anthony Anthony, and will probably enjoy them more in the long run There is/are one or more No obvious application, but I feel god/dess/s/es more comfortable, and it doesn't seem to affect how I handle the "real" world Math, up to and including I go into math classes with a Calculus, is fascinating and sense of wonder and anticipated elegant enjoyment, rather than fear of failure >The right to express your opinion >doesn't grant you the right to have that opinion *respected*, or taken >seriously, you know that. Granted. >And that's something you ought to have learned >from StM, too--the difference between an informed opinion and an >uninformed opinion." As far as I can tell, Leslie, all of the above *are* informed opinions (well, except the one about dieties) -- I've tried tripe, I've read both Brust and Anthony, I've taken math classes. Still, these are what I would call "pure" opinions -- not based in fact of any sort (statistics, replicable (?) experimental results, scientific observations, whatever). Reasonable people may come to different conclusions about the same questions -- my opinions aren't "right" or "wrong", and I'm unlikely to get into a debate over them, but by gods, I'm entitled to hold those opinions, and I'm entitled to express them. If someone disagrees with me on these or similar points, I'm more likely than not to say something like, "Well, my belief works for me, and harms no one else. If you like tripe, that's cool, but don't expect *me* to," but there is no way on this earth or any other that anyone is going to convince me that tripe is "good", no matter what facts they present. Yes, I'm angry. No, I don't think I'm angry at you, Leslie. I suspect, right now, I'm angry at life, the universe, and Murphy (the Murphy of Murphy's Law, not David Murphy aka PhaseOfTheMoon). == Posted by Janet Miles , or if you prefer anonymous email. Copy cc:d to poster, who will probably get the email long before the actual post appears on the newsgroup Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!aries!miller ~From: miller@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Kelly Miller) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 07:30:32 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 37 Message-ID: <50jb6o$h9k@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> <50d6dv$li@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: aries.scs.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159359 rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) writes: >For much of the past year, Carl has been arguing on misc.health.diabetes >with a man named Michel Martin or Michel Martin Devine (he has posted >under both names. This guy posts (or posted; he's off the air at the >moment) very misleading pseudoscientific material about his several >hobbyhorse subjects, one of them being supposed dangers of human insulin. >He also posted extremely inflammatory material about those who disagreed >with him; on the subject of Carl, he got much worse than Carl ever was. >Among other things, he repeatedly threatened his life, and made various >long-distance diagnoses of mental illness. (Popping his head the door for just a second...) Mickey's father and/or mother has also died a number of times over the years, from a wide variety of causes which somehow seemed to change depending upon the point he wanted to make. Perhaps this explains, a bit, why he treat PhaseOfTheMoon's mention of his wife's miscarrage as seriously as he perhaps should have. A Diet Mountain Dew (God's gift to mankind), to Carl. Many times he posted (on mhd and alt.folklore.science) what I wanted to say, better than I could have said it. Oh, and go donate some blood, too (he says, remembering the completely bizarre crosspost thread between ac and mhd which Carl started a while back). He seemed completely delighted when he discovered that the Red Cross had changed its rules to allow diabetics to donate (at least in some places in the country). Kelly Miller who wouldn't be here if his mother hadn't miscarried her previous pregnancy, for what it's worth. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!aries!miller ~From: miller@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Kelly Miller) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 07:40:38 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 32 Message-ID: <50jbpm$hgr@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> <50baus$jps@xanadu.io.com> <50d7sl$199@decaxp.harvard.edu> <50e4lo$903@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: aries.scs.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159369 leslie@io.com (Leslie) writes: >On 1 Sep 1996 23:57:09 GMT in alt.callahans, >Rachel Meredith Kadel said: >[Thanks for the info, Rachel.] >: >"Well, sure, low blood sugar can make anyone cranky. That's why he >: >specifically gave kitten a 2X4: to whack some sense into him, if >: >she caught him not keeping an eye on it." >: >: Yeah. But he can't possibly have been low the entire time he was on >: the net. >"Ya, that was sort of my point. And that was one thing I never did >figure out how to figure out...how to tell the difference between him >flaming out of crankiness related to blood sugar, and him flaming out of >reasoned deliberation." (Was going to go to bed, but the conversation at the bar was a bit too interesting...) Many times I wanted to write a follow-up to one of his posts -- "Carl, don't post when you're low." I just assumed that he was low when his vocabulary completely went to hell, little more than various combinations of rather uninspired insults (I'm sure you know the ones), when he seemed to have more primal rage than clarity of thought. But it was just a guess. Kelly Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!slip-50-5.ots.utexas.edu!user ~From: agwin@mail.utexas.edu (Anne Gwin) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 23:24:27 GMT Organization: Callahan's-in-the-Zocolo ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: ~References: <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bf <50f3h6$661@news.cais.com> <50fb6a$4c@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip-50-5.ots.utexas.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159368 In article <50fb6a$4c@news.acns.nwu.edu>, jed@juand.earth.nwu.edu (John DeLaughter) wrote: > If you don't mind a butt-inski, may I suggest you go to: > > http://www.cybercomm.net/~drz/tom.lehrer/ > > This website has the lyrics to *all* of Tom Lehrer's songs, including > the ones he sang on "Sesame Street". I'll butt back out, now. No, no, please stay! Anybody who tells me where to find "S-N" (which isn't on the greatest hits CD! Argh!) is Very Very Welcome! In fact I will happiL-Y buy you a drink. Anne -- Machine shared by Anne Gwin (agwin@mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarlathotep@mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post. "Oooooh...._Never_ use this!" -- Zathras "Who knew they were French?" -- Marcus Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.supernet.net!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!zdc-e!super.zippo.com!zdc!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!argus.demon.co.uk ~From: Andy May ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: r.i.p. carl lydick ~Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 20:15:34 GMT ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: <841781734snz@argus.demon.co.uk> ~References: <50agrf$ga4@kira.peak.org> ~Reply-To: Andy@argus.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: argus.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.30 X-Mail2News-Path: relay-4.mail.demon.net!post.demon.co.uk!argus.demon.co.uk ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159348 In article <50agrf$ga4@kira.peak.org> kightp@kira.peak.org "Pat Kight" writes: > Jezebel returns from her two-weeks vacation, the scent of heather in her > hair and the sound of pipes in her ears, expecting almost anything. > > Except a wake. > "I've missed him since June. And I won't forget him." > > Jezebel sighs, and looks around for kitten and Leslie. Drinks seem to be > in order. And maybe a round of hugs. Travel tales can wait till later. > > --Jezebel *HUG* (but we still want to hear the travel tales though - welcome home !) [journeyman] Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.nwnet.net!netra.oscs.montana.edu!Msu.oscs.montana.edu!gmt1810 ~From: gmt1810@Msu.oscs.montana.edu (Mark Tarka) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 00:45:22 Organization: Montana State University ~Lines: 14 Message-ID: <009A7D82.D11250E0@Msu.oscs.montana.edu> ~References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au>, ~Reply-To: gmt1810@Msu.oscs.montana.edu (Mark Tarka) NNTP-Posting-Host: trex.oscs.montana.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159340 In article , dpm@access4.digex.net (David P. Murphy) writes: >steve@adam.com.au (stephen white) writes: > >>Carl Lydick was completely correct when he pointed out that dpm was >>attempting a crude form of emotional blackmail. > > PhaseOfTheMoon shakes his head tiredly, that once again the mere mention [Snip...] Phase of...David P. Murphy...c'on over to alt.callahans; I'm gonna do my best to stick it up this punk's ....can I say it...what's the legal opinion on this issue? Mark :-) ~From: steve@adam.com.au (stephen white) ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> ~Lines: 77 X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] NNTP-Posting-Host: eden.adam.com.au Message-ID: <322d051d.0@eden.adam.com.au> ~Date: 4 Sep 96 04:27:09 GMT Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!news.dx.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!msunews!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!munnari.OZ.AU!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.mel.aone.net.au!eden.adam.com.au!not-for-mail ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159339 David P. Murphy (dpm@access4.digex.net) wrote: : "why in the world do you make this ridiculous declaration that a : 'real' sufferer would not have posted as i did? Examiner of Logic sets up an experiment in response to the question. He tells some guards to savagely whip someone from the village. A couple of hours later, Examiner of Logic brings in the villager to present the results of the experiment. The poor unfortunate's back has been rended into shreds, blood seeping past thick clots and glimpses of white ribs are visible in the depths of some of the larger wounds. Examiner of Logic asks the wretch, "How are you feeling?" "Uurrrrrrrrrrr..." replies the villager. Examinor of Logic comments "Phase of the Moon would have replied that he had never felt better, because he hasn't read the Official List of Approved Grieving Methods". Examiner of Logic then tells the wretch, "Carl Lydick says you're a knobhead". "Uurrrrrrrrrrr..." replies the villager. Examiner of Logic says "The villager is clearly uninterested in Carl Lydick's opinions since he is too busy with other things - namely the pain that he is in. This is as expected. It would appear to be a a reasonable surmise to state that being human provides a common base of experience with other humans. One does not require a degree in clinical psychology to make elementary deductions about human behaviour". : Phase checks the many pockets of his denim jacket, but comes up : empty- handed. "and i guess i'll be needing a copy of your 'Officially : Sanctioned Method of Complaining to a Usenetter's Boss'. Examiner of Logic comments "While we're at it, here's a copy of the 'Officially Sanctioned Method of Not Being A Shit-For-Brains'. Good luck, you'll need it". : nor do i see any reason for you to speak for GPS, to criticize the : letter as 'crudely-composed', or to describe anything in that letter : as an 'insult'. Examiner of Logic looks at the letter and comments "This manuscript rambles, repeats itself, makes its points poorly, and has no cohesive overall flow. It makes asinine rhetorical statements. It consistently states personal observations as being fact. I have no hesitation in saying that this manuscript is a fine example of crudely-composed verbiage". : in fact, please do tell me what is insulting in that letter; i will : absolutely stand behind everything i wrote as either provable fact : and/or carl's own stated goals. Examiner of Logic says "Imagine that you are a fool. For me to state that you are a fool is still insulting, regardless of the truth of that statement. It can therefore be easily seen that all of your comments about Carl Lydick are insulting, regardless of the truth of those statements". Examiner of Logic adds "I said what I wished to say in the first message. My personal belief is that Carl Lydick correctly pointed out a crude form of emotional blackmail, even though in doing so he stepped over conventional behavioral guidelines. "Incidentally, I'm very upset that you chose to disregard the death of my grandmother's dog in the pursuit of your malicious self-righteous satisfaction. It would appear that you are no better than he whom you have relentlessly hounded to death for the same sin". Examiner of Logic sighs at the stupidity of those bent on justifying their own actions, makes the sign of matter to energy, and disappears in a blaze of tachyons. -- steve@adam.com.au Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!mr.net!visi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.csd.net!ares.csd.net!mark ~From: mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: What happened to Carl Lydick ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 05:18:50 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company ~Lines: 82 Message-ID: <50j3fq$b9m@apollo.csd.net> ~References: <322608B3.33A2@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ares.csd.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159360 I've attempted to change the subject line back to it's original form; I don't know if this will be successful... dpm@access1.digex.net (David P. Murphy) writes: >=== FAIRFAX, VA 13:29 Tuesday 3 September 1996 === [Snip...] >were very much in need of some hard information. She was very polite and >did not hesitate to answer my questions, which i hereby summarize." [Snip...] Ah...more information. Death confirmed; cause of separation -- conflicting reports. Can I say...that with two pieces of information, two points are sufficient to draw a line, on which one can only pace back and forth? Three points define a plane in space, something a person can stand and walk upon. Is there a third independent report on the death of Speaker (a death certificate from the coroner's office, for example) and some more information of Carl's discharge (e.g. a memo with a date _prior_ to Murphy's 35 letter salvo :-) Well done Murphy, my true and loyal puppy. C'mon over here and let me scratch your ears. Yeah, little guy...you really know how to play FETCH. Yeah (scratch, scratch). You've brought us some new and interesting information. Good puppy. Is the information presented by Dave probative? > His sister has flown in from Maryland to handle the necessary > arrangements. Maryland! Baltimore, as later stated. I used to live there. Schooling, a job at a downtown institutional advertising agency owned by Dave Barton (the logo on the door was in lower-case letters, something like "db"...look at it long enough, and it looks like a couple of nuts and a prick:-). I worked in a darkroom developing B&W negatives and prints. Even had the opportunity to travel to Richmond, I believe, for a shooting at Virginia Commonwealth University. Every photo in the final package was mine, 'cept for that spread with the horses standing out in that tall meadow grass at dawn, with the mist hanging low over the ground. Yeah, Murphy (scratch, scratch). Boy! You're just covered with blood, ain't'cha? Git yursef a bunny rabbit out there at the edges of the parking lot. Whoa...looks like blood from two different critters (scratch, scratch). Now before you start whining about some statements made by a secretary at Caltech with a fancy title on the other end of a telephone line, let me point you at some of my background: Tarka v Franklin, 891F.2d 102 Tarka v Cunningham, 741F.2d 1281, 917F.2d 890 It ain't exactly on point, but does indicate some experience with institutions of higher education. GO FETCH. Now, ya know, the longer I look at David P. Murphy, the more he begins to look like a piece of shit. I'm sorry, but the standards have already been set out in the software..."We hold these truths to be self evident...that all men are created equal". Have those standards been "dumbed down" to such a level as to admit something like dpm? (That's David P. Murphy...for those who just tuned-in). OBTW...Dave...tell your wife I won't be able to make that lunch date this Friday. Mark :-) Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.csd.net!ares.csd.net!mark ~From: mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 06:23:39 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company ~Lines: 16 Message-ID: <50j79b$bp4@apollo.csd.net> ~References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <50hq22$6uu@apollo.csd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ares.csd.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159347 dpm@access1.digex.net (David P. Murphy) writes: >mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) writes: [SNIP...] > Phase looks puzzled. "If your newsreader lacks a killfile feature, >i'll be happy to point you to one that supports killing by author >or subject. i'm afraid i can't see any reason to refrain from >continuing to discuss this subject." MURPHY (scratch, scratch)...you include the letters "kill" in your response. I've never seen blood on Carl Lydick's hands :-) Have I called you a piece of shit, lately? Sorry, I must be getting tired. Mark Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mindspring.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.gtn.com!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!usenet ~From: Jan Vorbrueggen ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 04 Sep 1996 11:16:43 +0200 Organization: Institut fuer Neuroinformatik, Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum, Germany ~Lines: 13 ~Sender: jan@cora Message-ID: ~References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <50hn8g$ktn@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cora.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.33 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159374 jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) writes: > Was it the mere mention of a personal tragedy, or an attempt to > dredge up "pity points"? Come on, read the damn thread - David has told you where it's available! > Er, here you are attributing motives to an action when you don't > know the actor. Does this strike you as a good idea? You should know better than to ask this silly question. Jan Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (and a RETURN) ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 04:47:37 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 27 Message-ID: <50jfn9$c40@zot.io.org> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <841350465.14622@dejanews.com> <507fjb$iv5@xanadu.io.com> <50f9p4$6oo@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159372 On 2 Sep 1996 18:41:40 GMT in alt.callahans, Claudia Mastroianni said: : Leslie (leslie@io.com) wrote to val: : : "(BTW, I have a link to your 'ST: The Crouton Generation' page. It's : : truly hilarious, I wish I could have been here to see it happening.)" : : Claudia, as an occasional participant but mostly reader of the Crouton : Generation, grins. "It's definitely fun stoff. But, Leslie, I'm just : wondering what made you think it happened *here*?" "Errrrr...I dunno?" Leslie ponders. "When I was first here, Valentine and the Admiral were talking about The Croutonprize (and some other Crew Member was here too, but I forget his name. The one who blushed a lot--?). And ... I dunno, I guess it sounded like they were talking about posts to a.c. from the past." She frowns to herself. "I think Val does mention a mailing list(?) on her webpage though, come to think of it...but I guess I had the idea already in my mind that it was in a.c., so that bit of information didn't sink in very far..." Leslie. Remembered trivia isn't worth much, but *half*-remembered is *really* worthless. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.usit.net!news ~From: jmiles@usit.net (Janet D. Miles) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Carl Lydick - From a passing stranger. ~Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 02:49:37 GMT Organization: yeah right ~Lines: 38 Message-ID: <322cee13.9629451@news.usit.net> ~References: <917cc$1767.a9@HERMES> <50fiuq$i36@peabody.colorado.edu> ~Reply-To: jmiles@usit.net NNTP-Posting-Host: bway-slip91.dynamic.usit.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/16.227 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159328 On 2 Sep 1996 21:18:18 GMT, in alt.callahans rparson@spot.Colorado.EDU (Robert Parson) wrote: > "Kind folk, I have for you not one but two testimonials that I > have posted about your Speaker in the past week. One was written for > alt.folklore.science, a group in which his virtues sparkled; one for > sci.environment, where his record was somewhat more mixed." Thank you for posting, these, Robert; and for showing me two more places to look for people who knew Carl. I've been following these threads in several groups, and it's interesting to see what is said of him in each. I'm only going to comment on a single point, so lest I forget, please allow me to welcome you to This Place, and offer to buy you a drink, if you care to accept. >He could not distinguish between people who were being vague and >fuzzy in order to avoid stating their position clearly, and people >who were being vague and fuzzy because they hadn't really figured out >what their position was. Could not, or chose not to? I don't suppose we'll ever know, now, though from what I've read in the past few days, it's possible that he may have been every bit as aggravated by people who *hadn't* figured out their position, as he was by people who didn't want to state their position. >What can you say? He was who he was. I'll miss him. I can agree with that, wholeheartedly. == Posted by Janet Miles , or if you prefer anonymous email. Copy cc:d to poster, who will probably get the email long before the actual post appears on the newsgroup Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.usit.net!news ~From: jmiles@usit.net (Janet D. Miles) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: niceness and Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 02:50:20 GMT Organization: yeah right ~Lines: 26 Message-ID: <322cee51.9691131@news.usit.net> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> <50cl5c$o0c@apollo.csd.net> <50d83u$55k@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,<50deq8$qgh@apollo.csd.net> <50hhfb$jmn@fnnews.fnal.gov> ~Reply-To: jmiles@usit.net NNTP-Posting-Host: bway-slip91.dynamic.usit.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/16.227 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159329 On 3 Sep 1996 15:05:15 GMT, in alt.callahans morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV wrote: [much snippage, but even out of context I think this is a fair quote] > (My own feeling >was that Carl was human with all that that implies) My opinion is that most of us here in alt.callahans would agree with that statement. >Final comment to alt.callahans (I think this is going there too) >apologies for the non-persona posts. No apologies needed; there are many of us who do not post in persona -- I personally am not creative enough, so I post in standard first-person style, with an occasional third-person "stage direction", like this: . == Posted by Janet Miles , or if you prefer anonymous email. Copy cc:d to poster, who will probably get the email long before the actual post appears on the newsgroup Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: r.i.p. carl lydick ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 02:20:49 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <50g4m1$rj7@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <50agrf$ga4@kira.peak.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159390 >"I've missed him since June. And I won't forget him." >Jezebel sighs, and looks around for kitten and Leslie. Drinks seem to be >in order. And maybe a round of hugs. Travel tales can wait till later. kitten comes over to jez for a hug... -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 06:57:16 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <50jqqs$q2p@bermuda.io.com> ~References: <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50idnn$76v@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bermuda.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159386 On 3 Sep 1996 19:07:35 -0400 in alt.callahans, ElCabalero said: : : "Call me chicken if you like. This very thing is where I part company : from Carl's 'truth at any price' viewpoint. I refuse to hurt the living, : to slake my hatred of the dead." "The Place is for sharing pain, though. I would not begrudge you that, if you needed it. (So long as you got your facts straight...) "And so long as the expression of that hatred really served to release it. If it only served to keep it alive and growing, then perhaps it's best left unspoken, after all. "Hating the dead seems to offer very little profit to the living." Leslie CC: UT. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 07:26:25 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 14 Message-ID: <50jshh$qm9@bermuda.io.com> ~References: <322608B3.33A2@pacbell.net> <50j3fq$b9m@apollo.csd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: bermuda.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159391 On 4 Sep 1996 05:18:50 GMT in alt.callahans, Mark Tarka said: : : OBTW...Dave...tell your wife I won't be able to make that lunch date : this Friday. Go away. Trollers aren't welcome in alt.callahans. Or not. We do enjoy a good laugh now and then, come to think of it, and your pitifully lame attempt at a flame was pretty hilarious. In my opinion, of course. Leslie. Oh, Agent... Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 13:31:24 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 16 Message-ID: <50k0bc$rd0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50a9fd$oc8@pentagon.io.com> <50afos$ibe@news1.radix.net> <50g0eh$nra@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50jp9g$pqv@bermuda.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159398 kitten: >: leslie, love...it's not going to do you a goddamn bit of good to >: defend speaker now, any more than it did when he was alive. don't let >: the people who didn't love/like/respect him mess up your grieving >: process...that truly would be counterproductive. >"But, kitten..." Leslie points out. "This appears to *be* my grieving >process..." "you're right...i am wrong and i knew i was when i said it." -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.apk.net!wariat.org!kf8nh.apk.net!news ~From: bsa@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 10:47:46 -0400 Organization: Brandon's home server in Parma, Ohio ~Lines: 30 Message-ID: <50es2i$36k@kf8nh.apk.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> <32290B71.7EAE@ix.netcom.com> <32291de6.165881286@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kf8nh.apk.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159406 Also sprach harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) (<32291de6.165881286@nntp.ix.netcom.com>): +----- | ->> leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: | ->> "Don't be too hard on yourself. The only really dumb questions I've | ->> heard all had to do with why it isn't more like Unix...and I'm sure | ->> you never got that bad." | ->Yeah, but why isn't Unix more like VMS???? | -> | 88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888 | So, VAX and UNIX isn't much alike huh??? +--->8 Err, VMS and Unix. VAX is a line of minicomputers, on which VMS is the standard operating system and Unix is an option. # # # Just *barely* enough alike to give those of us accustomed to only one of them fits. :-) (I haven't actually used VMS very much --- but having used TOPS-20 in a former life, I could probably find my way around if I had to. As a user, not as a sysadmin.) They're different. And the question of "which one is better?" is meaningless --- "better" for *what*? Under what circumstances? I've never had much use for Unix vs. VMS flamewars aside from taking note of any snippets of actual VMS knowledge that might accidentally be slipped in :-) -- ++brandon s. allbery flying with merlin! bsa@kf8nh.apk.net telotech's "loup-guru" :-) FORZA CREW! bsa@telotech.com Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.apk.net!wariat.org!kf8nh.apk.net!news ~From: bsa@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 10:49:04 -0400 Organization: Brandon's home server in Parma, Ohio ~Lines: 11 Message-ID: <50es50$37e@kf8nh.apk.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kf8nh.apk.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159402 Also sprach Rose Platt (): +----- | --Rose, considering a new character named "Skunk Cabbage" to get away | from that smells-as-sweet business once and for all +--->8 "Mom?" :-) -- ++brandon s. allbery flying with merlin! bsa@kf8nh.apk.net telotech's "loup-guru" :-) FORZA CREW! bsa@telotech.com Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 14:20:43 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 28 Message-ID: <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159404 Janet D. Miles (jmiles@usit.net) wrote: : On 1 Sep 1996 03:33:58 -0500, in alt.callahans leslie@io.com (Leslie) : wrote: : >On 30 Aug 1996 13:08:13 GMT in alt.callahans, : >Chris Barnhart said: : >: Leslie, you seem to suffer from the same condition as StM suffered. : >: EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, whether based in fact or not. : > : >"Entitled? Sure, everyone has the right to freedom of speech, and they : >can voice their opinions if they want. But if opinions aren't based in : >fact, they're worthless, aren't they? : Leslie, I'm sorry, but I disagree with you here. Veering away, for : the moment, from the issue of Speaker, his personality, and his : tactics, I have lots of opinions that aren't based on provable fact : but that are useful to me. Well. . . some of your opinions (which I deleted) *WERE* based on provable fact, though they weren't stated as well as they could have been. (e.g. "tripe is disgusting" should be "I find tripe to be disgusting", unless you're going to try to convince a person that likes tripe that they don't.) I think Leslie 'really' meant that "opinions that ignore facts are worthless". e.g., I can have the opinion that the sky is 'really' pink, but that's worthless as an opinion. . . it ignores an observable fact. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 14:26:04 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 32 Message-ID: <50k3hs$b47@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <50hn8g$ktn@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159405 David P. Murphy (dpm@access1.digex.net) wrote: : jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) writes: : >David P. Murphy (dpm@access4.digex.net) wrote: : >: abusive : >: insults deliberately aimed at newcomers who failed to ask their questions : >: 'properly', with the intent of making them feel so unwelcome that they would : >: not post again : > Er, here you are attributing motives to an action when you don't : >know the actor. Does this strike you as a good idea? : PhaseOfTheMoon puts down his pen. he mulls over possible responses : for a while, then sighs and takes the low road. : "I am not attributing motives. I am echoing the statements made : by Carl himself. So Carl said something that paraphrases to "I want to make newcomers feel so unwelcome that they don't post again."? Can I find that on DejaNews? BTW: Yes, that is *EXACTLY* the point of contention here. You are saying you know WHY Carl acted a certain way. I'm saying "I'm very sure that you're over-speaking yourself." Did he insult people, deliberately, because they didn't ask their questions 'properly'? I don't know for sure that he did, but I can believe that. I *STRONGLY* doubt that he wanted them to not post again; I'd bet that he did it to get them to ask the question in a way that it can be answered. Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!jobone!news2.acs.oakland.edu!condor.ic.net!news.cic.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 00:49:16 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 54 Message-ID: <50fv4d$m4u@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> <32290B71.7EAE@ix.netcom.com> <50ccl6$9ei@news.cais.com> <50dc85$lq2@nntp.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159409 briancat@a.crl.com (-Lurch-) wrote: >In alt.callahans, mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) burst forth, >saying: > >>=>"The real answer? VMS was engineered, Unix 'jess growed'. Given the >>=>differences in origin it isn't too surprising that Unix ended up a >>=>tangled mess in which you can find nearly any shape you might >>=>want...if you look long and hard enough." Berek smiles at this, >>=>"While VMS is much easier to comprehend and work with quickly, but is >>=>still capable of getting the job done in a reliable way. I see the >>=>two, in botany terms, as a bonsai tree vs. a tangle of brambles. >>=>Which is preferable depends on whether you are a gardener or a >>=>rabbit." >"Hmmm, I have experience in both - and keeping with the botanical >analogy - VMS a bed of Tulips - pretty, does what it's supposed to >most the time. UNIX - a bed of roses - full of thorns, but how sweet >it is to get things done post haste. Which you use depends what type >of garden you want." "And when you want the blooms...Tulips are much earlier in the year than roses..." Berek grins through the crystal of his helmet. "The only thing from Unix I'd like to see added to VMS is pipes and the idea of filters to go with them. Other than that I like VMS just fine. There are a lot of VMS ideas I think Unix would benefit from, including logical names, a standard command line parser interface, asynchronous I/O, logical command names (with shortest unique prefix for command names being acceptable automatically) and built-in security that is flexible, yet securable." Berek swaps in a new analogy, "VMS is like a steamship...all the important and complex stuff is hidden away, doing its job, while Unix is a sailing ship, with all the ropes and sticks out where you can see them...and trip over them, bang your head on them, and watch them break in the first squall that comes along." >>=>> >"Hmm.. sounds like you could use some more lubrication here. MIKE! >Give the man his choice when he wants it" -Lurch- tosses some royal >Betelguesan Ducats to the counter in fron of Mike. "That should cover >it! Thanks" "Thank you very much, but I fear you are buying under a false assumption! That line wasn't mine...it was from the lady here..." Berek indicates Sue. I *do* have Linux installed on my home system, and I've logged into unix machines at work for testing purposes, but I'm still not a unix person at all." --Berek "unix has a user-surly interface" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!mcsun!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jenson.demon.co.uk!paul_h ~From: paul_h@jenson.com (Paul Harris) ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 4 Sep 96 16:55:09 GMT Organization: Jenson Technology Group Ltd. ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <1996Sep4.165509.400@jenson.demon.co.uk> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50g2on$pvt@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jenson.demon.co.uk ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154814 alt.callahans:159412 In article <50g2on$pvt@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) writes: > > kitten burst into tears (finally, thank the goddess)..."welcome" she > sobs. Eh? Anyone want to go on a VMSers night out to alt.callahans? "Spotty Anorak" trips over the threshold, bangs head on bar, drops to the floor and passes out in a puddle of puke... -- Paul Harris SLOG: Jenson Technology Group, Bristol, +44 (0)117 923 0100 SLOB: ehteam@telecall.co.uk, http://www.telecall.co.uk/pharris/ Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 01:08:33 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 45 Message-ID: <50g0eh$nra@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50a9fd$oc8@pentagon.io.com> <50afos$ibe@news1.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159435 leslie: >>"What did he flame you about, anyway? And who was right, you or him?" technopup: >He never flamed me. I never spoke with him. I observed his >interactions with others, found him lacking in the human qualities I >admire, and avoided/ignored him. chris: >>: *I* feel better for having said it, and I guess that's what memorial >>: is all about. If there is an afterlife of any sort, I can wish for >>: Carl that he finds there what he is looking for. Would he grant me >>: the same respect? I honestly don't know. leslie: >>"I don't know either." chris: >Nor do I care. kitten bites her tongue, says ouch, thinks, 'kitten you are a dumbass' and takes a deep breath. "ya know, pup....you are right. speaker was a major asshole...but it's very likely that he'd admire you for speaking you mind even while calling you a moron. leslie, love...it's not going to do you a goddamn bit of good to defend speaker now, any more than it did when he was alive. don't let the people who didn't love/like/respect him mess up your grieving process...that truly would be counterproductive. we've mourned him all weekend, starknight and i, and i will go on mourning him for a long, long time...i'd give just about anything to have him call me a blonde airhead bimbo again. we gotta remember, shared pain is lessened, shared joy is increased. thus do we refute entropy." -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 3 Sep 1996 01:17:18 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <50g0uu$od2@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50asgu$hfn@nntp.crl.com> <50bd9j$id@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159434 leslie: >"Even if I wanted to--and I don't--I couldn't channel StM (there's a >scary thought, eh?). No way could I imitate his analytical abilities. >"And if you think we didn't/don't have flamewars where StM was NOT >the star participant, think again. He wasn't the only one, not by >a long shot..." "goddess in heaven," kitten's brain boggles at the thought of leslie channelling speaker. "yeah....what about the iranians....and (what the hell was his name) dirque shadowsword....and archteryx....i don't think speaker was part of that...and the loss of didi. (well, i think he expressed an opinion...)." -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!claudia ~From: claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 20:50:27 GMT Organization: NowHere ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <50kq2j$q47@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunster-lab1.student.harvard.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159466 John Palmer (jpalmer@infinet.com) wrote: : Well. . . some of your opinions (which I deleted) *WERE* based on : provable fact, though they weren't stated as well as they could have been. : (e.g. "tripe is disgusting" should be "I find tripe to be disgusting", : unless you're going to try to convince a person that likes tripe that they : don't.) No, John. "I find tripe to be disgusting" is a fact (a true one in Ilene's case). "Tripe is disgusting" is the corresponding opinion. You are here saying that all opinions "should" be phrased as facts. I consider that unreasonable. "Speaker was an asshole" is an opinion. "Speaker did thus-and-such, which I consider reprehensible, his stated reasons notwithstanding" is a fact. But people get to express both. That's the way it goes. Claudia -- "If you think that by threatening me you can get me to do what you want... Well, that's where you're right. But -- and I am only saying that because I care -- there's a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing." Chris Knight (Val Kilmer), Real Genius -O Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!scws46.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@scws46.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 21:54:38 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: <50ktqu$qqf@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <322C8337.B9C@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: scws46.harvard.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159474 In article <322C8337.B9C@pacbell.net>, The Polymath wrote: >I know he frequently pricked a finger tip to test his blood >sugar level and administered a shot of insulin as necessary. (That does >not strike me as painless). The shots generally are. The tests aren't painless, but they aren't terrible either -- like pricking your finger with a sewing needle, brief "ooch" and move on. Rachel WARNING: A violation of US law is about to occur. Please avert your eyes. "tits" Ok, you can look now. http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) Followup-To: alt.callahans ~Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 01:20:39 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 41 Message-ID: <50g0v6$n2s@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159456 There is the sound of a phone bleeping for attention near the end of the bar. Berek jumps and starts slapping his clothing in an attempt to locate the cursed device. He runs it to ground in an inside vest pocket of his spacesuit, and hauls it out of the fur overcoat. "Yeah?" he says testilly into the device. "Huh?!? You're kidding! Aw, damn! OK, I'll see what I can do...thanks for letting me know." He hangs up and re-pockets the phone. He stands up from the stool, says to those he was chatting with, "Excuse me a minute? Something I have to take care of...", and moves down the bar, his crystal-helmed head scanning up and down like a radar antenna. About halfway down, at a spot with nobody currently seated, he finds what he is searching for. "Got ya!" he exclaims, and, crouching very low so he can see up under the bar, he reaches into the shadows usually inhabited only by knees and retrieves a smallish black device with an ugly appearance and a rubber-duckie antenna. "God, I hate these things! So hard to spot unless you're looking for them, and boy, can they cause trouble when you miss one!" He takes a lead-lined pail out of somewhere in his clothing, and drops the thing into it. There is a slight puff of smoke and a pronounced sizzle. The pail disappears back from whence it came. Berek looks relieved, and heads back to his stool. "What was that?" asks Mike. "Cross-poster...set for comp.os.vms. It's been sending some of the conversations here down the street to the techno guys place. Just got a call warning me about it, and asking us to knock it off. Said they can hardly hear their drives spinning with all the racket from here. I wish I'd noticed it when I came in...I hang out over there too sometimes, and they don't know I drink...or at least, they didn't. Ah, well, I'll cope I guess." Berek sits down, carefully, on his stool again (it creaks anyway), and picks up his Broken Kneecap for a refreshingly cold sip, and tries to tune back in on the conversations around him. --Berek "it's in the bit-bucket now" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!informer.alliance.net!news ~From: Lissa & Eric McCollum ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: A greeting (was Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 22:12:09 -0400 Organization: Alliance Network, Inc. (GRR MI) (616-774-3010) ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: <322CE579.2978@alliance.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gr62.ppp.alliance.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159445 Rose Platt wrote: > "To be absolutely clear: My name is Rose. Silence and Shadow are my > current characters, and usually they make more posts here than I do; > lately I've had to set them aside and answer a few things in person, but > that shouldn't go on for too much longer. If you're not sure who's > posting--though it's usually clear from the content--look at the bottom > of the post and see who signed it. Hope I don't cause any additional > confusion!" > > --Rose, considering a new character named "Skunk Cabbage" to get away > from that smells-as-sweet business once and for all > > "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." > --Mark Twain Lissa grins impishly, and says, "Well then, Greetings Mr. Twain! :)" "Honestly though. I seem to have arrived at both alt.callahans and #callahans after you were a regular. I don't know what happened. I don't care what happened. But, I would like to buy you a drink in greeting and welcome." Lissa Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!erich.triumf.ca!music ~From: music@erich.triumf.ca (Fred W. Bach, TRIUMF Operations) ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,comp.sys.dec,alt.callahans,sci.skeptic,sci.environment,sci.geo.meteorology,sci.physics,vmsnet.misc,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.herbs,misc.health.diabetes,sci.med,sci.astro,soc.culture.african.american ~Subject: Letters of Condolences to Carl Lydick's Family ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 13:16 PST Organization: TRIUMF: Tri-University Meson Facility ~Lines: 24 Distribution: world Message-ID: <4SEP199613161146@erich.triumf.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: ftp.triumf.ca Keywords: Letters of condolences to Carl Lydick's family News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50 ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154836 comp.sys.dec:43769 alt.callahans:159448 sci.skeptic:205876 sci.environment:112812 sci.geo.meteorology:29461 sci.physics:212259 vmsnet.misc:5213 alt.folklore.science:35773 alt.folklore.herbs:36245 misc.health.diabetes:43652 sci.med:187774 sci.astro:142346 soc.culture.african.american:242137 I have personally contacted someone in Caltech Administration who gave me the name, address, and phone number of the mortuary dealing with Carl's passing. The mortuary is not having a service for Carl there, but they will be happy to pass along messages of condolences to Carl's family back east. Address your letters to: The Carl Lydick family c/o Turner, Stevens and Edwards Mortuary 926 E. Orange Grove Blvd. Pasadena, CA 91104 The phone number at the Mortuary is (818) 793-4156 . I have just called the mortuary and confirmed that this information is correct. I told them I would post the address to Carl's friends on Usenet. Fred W. Bach , Operations Group | Internet: music@triumf.ca TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility) | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6327/6278 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS | FAX: 604-222-1074 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 2A3 "Accuracy is important. Details can mean the difference between life & death." These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question. They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.iadfw.net!David ~From: elcabalero@aol.com ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 16:17:39 GMT Organization: InsurQuote ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: <50ka33$3cs_001@library.airnews.net> ~References: <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50idnn$76v@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <50jqqs$q2p@bermuda.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.121.14.131 X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159431 In article <50jqqs$q2p@bermuda.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: }On 3 Sep 1996 19:07:35 -0400 in alt.callahans, }ElCabalero said: }: }: "Call me chicken if you like. This very thing is where I part company }: from Carl's 'truth at any price' viewpoint. I refuse to hurt the living, }: to slake my hatred of the dead." } }"The Place is for sharing pain, though. I would not begrudge you that, }if you needed it. (So long as you got your facts straight...) "Well, fact is, I was aprehensive at the thought of Carl's return, but I don't really hate him anymore. Ask the same question a few months ago..." } }"And so long as the expression of that hatred really served to release }it. If it only served to keep it alive and growing, then perhaps it's }best left unspoken, after all. "Yes." } }"Hating the dead seems to offer very little profit to the living." "Hating the living doesn't offer much more," UT Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!aanews.merit.net!news.mich.com!news ~From: jfd@mich.com ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 4 Sep 1996 18:31:20 GMT Organization: mich.com, Inc., Farmington, Michigan ~Lines: 32 Message-ID: <50khto$76g@news.mich.com> ~References: 50edqm$ksi@ilx018.iil.intel.com NNTP-Posting-Host: am001-16.dialip.mich.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154825 sci.skeptic:205847 alt.callahans:159436 On 2 Sep 1996 uraz said: >As far as I could gather (and someone has called the police, and got >confirmation to Carl's death, and maybe knows the formal reasons), >Carl had a serious heart condition, which he didnt take care of (he >didnt take surgery or medicine), and died from his heart condition. >You could find most, if not all, of the news articles about the Carl was a diabetic. The offical cause of death was, I understand, listed at first as "Illness" however after the M.E. did his thing it was changed to DIABETES. I'm a diabetic myself. That's how I came to know Carl, And why I am one of the people who called Pasadena PD to verify the report. About a week after the fact so that the M.E. Had a chance to finalise his report. I did not know about Carl's heart condition. I was also unaware he'd been fired however I did notice his cal.tec UID was no longer valid. If some snake oil salesman got him fired.... (Over on misc.health.diabetes he mostly flamed snake oil salesmen, and he was the best person for the job) If some snake oil salesman go him fired.... May said salesman fry in his own oil! `[1;37;44m John F Davis, WA8YXM, In Delightful Detroit, aa122@detroit.freenet.org `[1;33;44m "Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business" Silly rabbit. ... Tricks are for HOOKERS! `[1;30;45mNet-Tamer V 1.04 - Registered ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,misc.health.diabetes,comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.mathworks.com!mvb.saic.com!eskimo!thekid ~From: thekid@eskimo.com (Kyla Ghigliotti) ~Subject: Carl Lydick: An address for cards and letters X-Nntp-Posting-Host: eskimo.com Message-ID: ~Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id) Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT BETA (06/24/1995) #4 ~Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:43:52 GMT ~Lines: 37 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159477 misc.health.diabetes:43670 comp.os.vms:154852 sci.skeptic:205933 I spoke with Carl's sister Pat today and she gave me permission to post her address for those who might like to write or send cards. The address is as follows: Patricia Lydick 1340 Washington Blvd. Baltimore, MD 21230 Pat told me this afternoon that Carl was not only in need of the 6x heart bypass but he also needed a valve replacement. She said that his doctor had informed him that if he chose to have the surgery that he only had a 20% chance of pulling through it and if he did make it that he would have to be a lot less active. For those of you who don't know...Carl did not drive he walked or bicycled everywhere. Pat also told me that they took Carl's blood sugar levels after his death and it read about 800. They told her that it could have gone done after his death but it could not have increased. I told Pat about the incredible amount of posting that has been going on across the internet both good and bad and that people both loved and hated him...sometimes both. Carl was a truly great friend to me. He sometimes annoyed the hell out of me. He sometimes made me laugh until I cried. Carl loved me and I loved him though not as he would have liked me to. I will miss him tremendously. [and the Kyla-Sprite fluttered her wings and flew up to the rafters to sit quietly in a corner and reflect for a while] -- @}-'--,-- Oh, could you view the melody of every grace and music of her face, you'd drop a tear; seeing more harmony in her bright eye than you now hear. --,--'-{@ -Lucasta [1649] Orpheus to Beasts- Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.supernet.net!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!umass.edu!risky.ecs.umass.edu!usenet From: pheimann@ecs.umass.edu Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: Wed, 4 Sep 96 17:16:47 GMT Organization: Engineering Computer Services Lines: 21 Message-ID: <50ld56$95j@risky.ecs.umass.edu> References: <322C1C42.3E9B@interlog.com>,<50ig56$pnq@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.ecs.umass.edu Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159522 kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) writes: >kitten lifts a silent glass to her friend, and to her brother who >burned on sept 4, 1989 (it hurts...i thought i was getting better, but >it hurts so bad) To which Sybel lifts her glass as well. May the fires release the sprit to soar free, my brother. No matter what or who, death still saddens the heart. When you know the person (or in Carl's case, wrote with him and to him enough to feel you have met him), the sadness is a great weight. Lifted by time, the weight is still hard to endure in the first few days and weeks. I will miss Carl, both at the place and in my e-mail. And I am glad he is now free of the multitude of problems that he was physically faced with these last few years. Good bye, Carl. --Sybel Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!news.bconnex.net!news.lightlink.com!news2.interlog.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail From: deirdre@zap.io.org (Leslie) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 5 Sep 1996 05:51:51 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <50m7rn$b5i@zap.io.org> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvstr$28t@boris.eden.com> <50fhh9$jm8@access4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zap.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159550 On 2 Sep 1996 16:54:01 -0400 in alt.callahans, Dreamweaver said: : : I was checking out the Place for the first time in a long time, and of : course half the articles have to do with Speaker, "Of course." : but this time r.i.p was next to his name. "Unreal, still, isn't it?" : Dreamweaver brings out a little box of straw men he's collected over the : past 4 years. All the times I re-thought an argument and found the flaw : in it before Speaker could. "Somewhere, StM is smiling a very self-satisfied smile, hearing you say that. "Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Dreamweaver." Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!agate!boulder!spot.Colorado.EDU!rparson From: rparson@spot.Colorado.EDU (Robert Parson) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Carl Lydick - From a passing stranger. Date: 5 Sep 1996 00:25:40 GMT Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder Lines: 40 Message-ID: <50l6m4$qf1@peabody.colorado.edu> References: <917cc$1767.a9@HERMES> <50fiuq$i36@peabody.colorado.edu> <322cee13.9629451@news.usit.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu NNTP-Posting-User: rparson Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159487 In article <322cee13.9629451@news.usit.net>, Janet D. Miles wrote: >I'm only going to comment on a single point, so lest I forget, please >allow me to welcome you to This Place, and offer to buy you a drink, >if you care to accept. Why thank you. A glass of Tyrconnell Irish Whiskey, if available. Slainte! > >>He could not distinguish between people who were being vague and >>fuzzy in order to avoid stating their position clearly, and people >>who were being vague and fuzzy because they hadn't really figured out >>what their position was. > >Could not, or chose not to? Probably some of each. A problem in sci.env is distinguishing those posted questions which are really requests for information or enlightenment, from those which are merely rhetorical posturing expressed in interrogative mode. If a question was clearly of the first kind, Carl would answer politely and lucidly, and pitch his explanation to what he perceived as the level of expertise of the person asking the question. If clearly of the second kind, Carl would tell the poster to go learn high school physics/chemistry/economics/whatever, and he would accompany this advice with picturesque hypotheses concerning the contents of the poster's cranial vault. Problem is, lots of the questions are hard to place. _Usually_, Carl would give a poster the benefit of the doubt the first time around. However, as time proceeded (I watched him over a period of about four years) it seemed to me that he stopped making these distinctions and adopted a "shoot first" policy. I flamed him once for what I considered a wholly unjustified attack, and somewhat to my surprise he didn't strike back. ------ Robert Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 5 Sep 1996 08:51:52 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park Lines: 24 Message-ID: <50mlto$hfi@medea.gp.usm.edu> References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <009A7D82.D11250E0@Msu.oscs.montana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159589 Mark Tarka wrote: >Phase of...David P. Murphy...c'on over to alt.callahans; I'm gonna >do my best to stick it up this punk's ....can I say it...what's the >legal opinion on this issue? > > Mark :-) Is it true that bozos live in Montana ? Your pettiness makes you look foolish. But you already knew that. That is, you knew it, if your mind functioned. Some of us are having a hard enough time dealing with Speaker's death without some shithead like you being around. But, its a Freeee Net. I could killfile ya, but fungus like you grows where it wants to. In MY F*CKING OPINION, your comments are totaly uncalled for ! DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.new-york.net!actcom!ilnews.iil.intel.com!pauls From: Uri Raz Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 5 Sep 1996 05:05:04 GMT Organization: Intel Corp. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <50ln20$2940@ilx018.iil.intel.com> References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> <50edqm$ksi@ilx018.iil.intel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ilx316.iil.intel.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (X11; I; AIX 2) X-URL: news:50edqm$ksi@ilx018.iil.intel.com Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154887 sci.skeptic:206092 alt.callahans:159567 I have written in this thread : > (I recall him > once insulting someone who, in a thread he started, said his wife had > an abortion, in a VERY LOW way). > Brian Tillman has pointed out the person's wife had a miscarriage. I stand corrected, and appologize for my mistake. Uri Raz. +---------+--------------------+-------+-------+ | Uri Raz | uraz@iil.intel.com | Noir | :-) | | All opinions are mine. Others may share it. | +----------------------------------------------+ Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) Newsgroups: alt.callahans,misc.health.diabetes Subject: Re: Carl Lydick: An address for cards and letters Date: 5 Sep 1996 13:20:21 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 28 Message-ID: <50mk2l$4kk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159576 misc.health.diabetes:43708 kyla: >> Pat told me this afternoon that Carl was not only in need of the 6x heart >> bypass but he also needed a valve replacement. She said that his doctor >> had informed him that if he chose to have the surgery that he only had a >> 20% chance of pulling through it and if he did make it that he would have >> to be a lot less active. For those of you who don't know...Carl did not >> drive he walked or bicycled everywhere. jan: >Thanks for the research. However, I am puzzled by the assertion of 20% >survival for this type of surgery. I'm pretty sure a heart transplant would >have a higher success rate, so why bother with it? He was still walking, he >was in much better shape than most people waiting for a transplant. kitten: carl had other problems....the diabetes was bad, he had recurring bouts with his appendix (but they wouldn't remove it), he had low blood pressure, he was a chocolate junkie, and an alcoholic. also, i don't think he really wanted ANY kind of surgery (although that is speculation and i hesitate to make it for fear of a lightning bolt.) -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 5 Sep 1996 16:37:43 GMT Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 Lines: 16 Message-ID: <50mvkn$ms2@nadine.teleport.com> References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <322d051d.0@eden.adam.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: kelly.teleport.com Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159610 In article <322d051d.0@eden.adam.com.au>, stephen white wrote: > >Examiner of Logic sets up an experiment in response to the question. He >tells some guards to savagely whip someone from the village. > [...] "This is sickening. It's the kind of thing which Fast Eddie's blackjack is there to prevent, in Spider's Callahans. "I say any ethical point which can only be made by brutalizing some innocent is false. Enough, 'Examiner,' enough." R. Path: news2.digex.net!access5!dpm From: dpm@access5.digex.net (David P. Murphy) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 5 Sep 1996 14:22:47 -0400 Organization: Phase of the Moon Software Inc. Alexandria, VA Lines: 264 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159624 prologue ======== CARL logged out at 23-AUG-1996 12:44:25.86 ^P >>>h Halted >>> storyline ========= PhaseOfTheMoon looks up from his seat at the bar, where he has drained the last can of his pepsi six-pack while listening to the many, many patrons who have spoken for, against, and/or about the one known as Speaker-to-Minerals. "This is a very interesting Place," he begins. "A few of you have read those papers i tacked to the wall, some of you have discussed them openly, and some of you have whispered your thoughts to me while others were talking. i was happy to hear from you, regardless of your opinions. Even those who refuse to listen to any words they do not wish to hear," he says, motioning to an individual who stares constantly at Phase; this person has somehow acquired several of Phase's business cards, and is busy scratching out the title 'systems programmer' thereon and writing 'sysadmin' instead . . . but whenever Phase opens his mouth to speak, the man frantically stuffs wads of cotton into each ear, only to remove them as soon as he finishes conversing. Phase shrugs. "Killfiling. It happens." He casually strolls around the bar, appreciating the respect shown him by the patrons. He has already privately complimented those who contributed particularly well-thought-out remarks; there were many more then he expected. "I will admit that i was beginning to feel a bit frustrated that, after a week of discussions over his fate, no one seemed to have made any effort to find out the truth behind his termination. Did this group of people prefer to sit around and mong rumors? Finally i called his employer myself and relayed what i heard, though i knew it would not mean much coming from 'the accused'. I have since been informed that others had indeed been making inquiries, and in one case had been specifically asked *not* to post. So i apologize to the Patrons in general, and i'd especially like to thank The Yendi, Fred Bach, and," he pauses to look up into the rafters, "Kyla-Sprite for their efforts. There are probably others; my thanks to them as well." "The best place for me to start is to answer the many queries about my motives in sending that letter; these range from those who agreed with my assessment but were disgusted that i 'complained to an employer', all the way to those who believe i was doing my damnedest to get Carl fired for his 'miscarriage' comment. "Point one. Many letters had already been received by caltech about his behavior, going back a long time. He had been abusive for years without any apparent reaction from his superiors, so i certainly had good reason to think that *nothing* would happen as a result of my letter; in fact, i said as much in the letter itself. "Point two. Anyone who seriously believes that caltech would fire an employee with several years tenure over a single letter might as well stop reading this post, since you're obviously beyond my ability to convince of anything at all. "Point three. I did not suggest in my letter that his net.access be revoked, let alone that he be terminated. I only wanted to ensure that they were aware of what their employer was accomplishing with their resources and their name . . . any actions taken would be theirs. "Point four. It can be seen that his termination would not be in my best interest, because i fully expected him to simply get an account with a private ISP in pasadena and continue posting to comp.os.vms as he had always done. "Point five. Since i did not expect him to be fired or even reprimanded, the intent of my letter was to find *someone* he respected (thus the thirty- one coworker recepients) who would hopefully be alerted by the letter to take him aside and convince him to be more considerate." Phase shakes his head. "Sure, it was a long shot. But there wasn't much else for me to do, and although i was the only one to write it and sign it, i wasn't alone in spirit. Many of the comp.os.vms regulars resented Carl's attitude, and someone over there recently said Whether we sympathize with this or not is irrelevent. The end result is a situation where people are less likely to try answering questions, and we the members of this newsgroup/list are the ultimate losers. which pretty much confirms what i felt. I assure you that i was as surprised as anyone here when i heard he was fired, and that i was quite sad and unhappy when i heard of his death. I can't claim him as a friend --- he never talked about himself on that newsgroup --- yet i felt naught but grief over his end. "He wanted to scare away anyone who couldn't ask questions intelligently and anyone who posted misinformation. He justified this stand by saying the signal-to-noise ratio should be kept high, and that false information would harm people who used it. But he *knew* his abuse resulted in much more noise than 'wrong' questions ever did, and if he despised those he felt incompetent, why did he try to protect them (since any competent person would test code off the net before placing into a production area)? "Many people have said that Carl 'did not suffer fools gladly'. But the determination of who is a fool and who isn't reflected heavily on Carl; again, i'll let someone from the vms group speak: _Usually_, Carl would give a poster the benefit of the doubt the first time around. However, as time proceeded (I watched him over a period of about four years) it seemed to me that he stopped making these distinctions and adopted a "shoot first" policy. which i agreed with so strongly that it was the primary cause of my decision to write the letter; the 'miscarriage' comment, if anything, was simply the last straw. Re-read the very end of the attachment on my web page and decide whether his goal was to persuade the person to post more detailed explanations in the future, or simply to insult." A voice is heard from the crowd. "I feel that your bringing up a personal tragedy in the midst of an argument wasn't appropriate either." "Yeah, my 'emotional blackmail'. If you had heard my tone of voice," he glances over at someone and smiles ruefully, "you would have realized that i was merely remarking upon a coincidence, as in two bad things happening at the same time." Phase glances over at one corner of the bar, where an ugly person is viciously beating a villager, yelling 'I know how you'll react to this!!', then continues on. "Obviously not everyone will believe this, but while i was most certainly hurting from the miscarriage, i was still able to be depressed that someone i respected was not only refusing to understand my question, but was putting words in my mouth and distorting the thread." Someone in the back snorts, "You respected him? You don't act like it." "Everyone on comp.os.vms respected him for his knowledge and his devotion to helping people about VMS. Anything else we felt doesn't change that. He helped me many times, and i thanked him each time. Sometimes i thanked him for assisting a third party." A lady at the bar murmurs, without turning around, "You've painted a rather one-sided picture, Phase." He turns in her direction, pauses, then blushes. "Truly, i *am* guilty. T'was unintentional, and i thank you for pointing it out." He resumes facing the majority of the crowd. "No matter how often i stand here and talk about his help, i'm understating the case. Carl was astoundingly prolific, replying to a host of questions not only deep in number but wide in subject. His *answers* were almost always complete, clear, and correct. There are hundreds if not thousands of VMS users, programmers and admins logging in today who are better off because Carl spent some of his time helping them. He certainly earned respect and admiration for that, and i'm sorry that i've talked so much about the 'bad' without fully acknowledging the good." A rough voice calls out from a booth. "So Carl said something that paraphrases to 'I want to make newcomers feel so unwelcome that they don't post again.'? Can I find that on DejaNews?" "No, he said he wanted to scare away newcomers *who couldn't ask questions properly*. As for DejaNews," Phase looks a bit exasperated, "look yourself. I don't remember when he said it, i can't find it in any of my email archives, and i stopped my Deja attempt as soon as i saw Hits 1-50 of 2079 for Query: ~a lydick & ~g comp.os.vms * 975 articles posted between 1996/01/01 and 1996/06/24. * 99 % followups. i'm sorry, but i just don't have to time to read over two thousand articles." A slight pause as his eyes unfocus, then "Geez, the man posted to FIFTY-EIGHT different newsgroups in six months! I wonder how much of that was due to cross-posting?" The rough voice continues, "You are saying you know WHY Carl acted a certain way. I'm saying 'I'm very sure that you're over-speaking yourself.'" Phase sighs, thinking of that Perfect World in which everyone carefully reads postings. "No, i'm saying 'Carl publicly described his motives', not 'I know his motives'. The innermost truth about Carl is beyond my grasp." A small, misshapen yet somehow unlikeable sickly-green monster struts up to Phase and begins beating his arms against Phase's knees, striking blows which would fail to dent a marshmallow. Phase reluctantly reaches into the hyperspatial pocket of his denim jacket (not the one holding the katana ;-) and hands the malformed creature a child-sized basketball with a happy face painted onto it. The freak gleefully runs around, using the ball to push chairs and tables into different positions. Mike tolerates this until it maniacally attacks the cash register, and which point he asks it just what does it thinks it's doing? It looks up at him in contempt and snarls loudly "I'm rearranging this bar with his head!" Mike looks it straight in the eyes and quotes the Monster Manual, "To kill a troll, the monster must be burned or immersed in acid." The troll glares back at him and shouts, "Your remarks are not probative! I cannot be harmed until no fewer than two other statements of separate origin confirm that to form a *plane* of fire! Here, I'll show you!" He jumps into the fireplace and is instantly and totally consumed by the roaring flames; a few patrons reward his ashy remains with a golf-clap. Mike finishes his quote, "Intelligence: Low." Another voice, soft but sure. "At one point I considered sending your letter and attachments along with a personal letter stating that you had caused the death of my friend to your employer and as many fellow employees that I could.... but I chose to let the anger burn away." Phase shrugs. "If you think you'll accomplish something, send what you will to John Abate (my superior), Doug Borella (his superior), Dr. John Kelly (president), Grady Ogburn (head of support), Tony Scanga (VMS programmer), or Jeff Edmonds (guy across the hall) at Datametrics Systems Corporation 12150 East Monument Drive #300 Fairfax, VA 22033 USA or call (703) 385-7700. However, i'm not *encouraging* you to do so; they've all got plenty of Real Work to do, and i've kept them informed of my actions from the day i handed the thirty-five envelopes to a Post Office employee, and they pretty much agree with what i've done. But i'm not going to hide anything from ya'll. "Please be quite sure of any accusations you make, though. i strongly doubt you can legally defend the statement that i 'caused the death' of Carl. "And as for 'letting the anger burn away', many people tried many times over several years to get Carl to chill out. They and i felt that it was *not* his newsgroup nor his place to decide who could post and who couldn't, and that *he* had no business posting insults to a technical newsgroup. I let him alone for a long time, and sat on the letter for two weeks after originally writing it, thinking it over, before sending it. "Clearly i don't agree with those who think it was none of my business sending the letter to caltech; in my mind, i was merely bringing their attention to a matter of which they either were already aware or should have been." A distinguish-looking gentleman calls out, "What if he had not posted from caltech.edu?" "Then i wouldn't have sent anything to caltech. And that, i'm afraid, makes me think that Carl was *stupid*. To constantly send such abuse and libel from his employer's computers strikes me as either incredibly dim- witted or incredibly arrogant, and at least one person has already said that Carl deserved due to be fired just for that." Phase asks Mike for a glass of Glenfiddich, then walks to the chalk line and eyes the fireplace, which is now reminiscent of a pickup location for a glass recycling center. "I cannot toast the memory of Speaker-to-Minerals; i never met that individual, and he seems to have been a bit different from the person i knew." He sets the glass on the floor, the whiskey untouched. "One patron said 'Carl needed help in his present, not in this one.' He might have needed help, but IMHO he never asked for it, didn't want it and probably wouldn't have accepted it if it had been offered. "And now i've got things to do. My older daughter just started junior high, my younger wants me to finish painting her dollhouse, and I have yet to make the HER and HOLMES source available to the vms people as I promised. I'm grateful to all of you, good and bad, for showing me the other sides of Carl which of course were there, though i never saw them. "But i'll be in Anaheim in two months for the DECUS symposium. There'll be more than a few of the regular comp.os.vms/vmsnet.* crowd attending, and i'll be proud to buy a RL drink for anyone who wishes to toast Carl J. Lydick, who spent so much of his time answering other people's questions and doing what he thought was right to improve the newsgroup." Phase walks over to the papers he pinned to the wall, pulls them off, hesitates, then pins them back up. He nods to Mike, drops a double-eagle on the bar, and walks back to the chalk line. "One more thing," he says, picking up his whiskey and looking around the room. "To lively debate, to remembering each other, to seeking the truth, to enjoying life and attempting to find the meaning therein." He raises his glass to the crowd, drains the Glenfiddich, makes his System Shock roll (barely), and throws the glass into the fireplace <<<>>> with a passable screwball. PhaseOfTheMoon tips his ever-present black baseball cap with the purple _Sandman_ logo, replaces his glasses with prescription shades, pops open the inevitable pepsi-for-the-road, and walks out the door into that dark night. He doesn't look back. ok dpm -- David P. Murphy mailto:murphy@connor.datametrics.com (work) systems programmer mailto:dpm@access.digex.net (personal) http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm COGITO ERGO DISCLAIMUM ftp://ftp.access.digex.net/pub/access/dpm Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV!MORPHIS From: morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 5 Sep 1996 18:04:08 GMT Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab Lines: 19 Message-ID: <50n4mo$mj6@fnnews.fnal.gov> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net>,<50h5f6$fbq@zot.io.org> Reply-To: morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV NNTP-Posting-Host: d0niu3.fnal.gov Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159621 deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) writes: >Chris Barnhart said: >: >: EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, whether based in fact or not. >"And," she adds. "StM would have called that statement one of the >single most stupid things he'd ever heard. 'Whether based in fact >or not'--good god, you really think an opinion based on figments of a >person's imagination could be *worth* anything, to them or anyone else?" >Leslie. A trick question? You be the judge... Two comments, 1) who are you to judge whether such an opinion is worth something to them? 2) it depends heavily on what other evidence there is available. if there is no other evidence and if it is known that this opinion is based on imagination, maybe it has some worth. Peace, Robert Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV!MORPHIS From: morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 5 Sep 1996 21:06:08 GMT Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab Lines: 37 Message-ID: <50nfc0$5jn@fnnews.fnal.gov> References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au>,,<009A7D82.D11250E0@Msu.oscs.montana.edu> Reply-To: morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV NNTP-Posting-Host: d0niu3.fnal.gov Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159652 gmt1810@Msu.oscs.montana.edu (Mark Tarka) writes: >dpm@access4.digex.net (David P. Murphy) writes: >>steve@adam.com.au (stephen white) writes: >> >>>Carl Lydick was completely correct when he pointed out that dpm was >>>attempting a crude form of emotional blackmail. >> >> PhaseOfTheMoon shakes his head tiredly, that once again the mere mention >[Snip...] > >Phase of...David P. Murphy...c'on over to alt.callahans; I'm gonna >do my best to stick it up this punk's ....can I say it...what's the >legal opinion on this issue? > > Mark :-) "Here, have another (uh, Mike, what was he drinking?)" a dollar's worth of change is put on the bar. "Mark, if you are interested in Carl's memory... he didn't like hypocrasy so if that smilie is supposed to be a cover for the anger you apparently feel toward dpm (and/or generally about Carl's death)..." "I don't think he really got into sadism so if it is a grin at the thought of causing dpm pain..." "or do you have some other reason for the smilies you have been littering your offensive posts with?" "My use of 'offensive' isn't meant to be judgemental, I am not trying to suggest you shouldn't be offensive, I am merely making the observation." "If you are posting completely in grief/anger I will note for your later calm and sane consideration that given the surroundings in Callahans it is reasonable for PhaseOfTheMoon to work out his feelings here" "As are you, of course." Robert Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!scoop.eco.twg.com!usenet From: mike@vishnu.eco.twg.com (Mike Bartman) Newsgroups: alt.callahans,misc.health.diabetes Subject: Re: Carl Lydick: An address for cards and letters Date: 5 Sep 1996 21:24:34 GMT Organization: The Wollongong Group Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50ngei$7u2@scoop.eco.twg.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: vishnu.eco.twg.com Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159651 misc.health.diabetes:43733 In article , Jan Vorbrueggen writes: >thekid@eskimo.com (Kyla Ghigliotti) writes: > >> Pat told me this afternoon that Carl was not only in need of the 6x heart >> bypass but he also needed a valve replacement. She said that his doctor >> had informed him that if he chose to have the surgery that he only had a >> 20% chance of pulling through it and if he did make it that he would have >> to be a lot less active. For those of you who don't know...Carl did not >> drive he walked or bicycled everywhere. > >Thanks for the research. However, I am puzzled by the assertion of 20% >survival for this type of surgery. I'm pretty sure a heart transplant would >have a higher success rate, so why bother with it? He was still walking, he >was in much better shape than most people waiting for a transplant. > > Jan Berek leans over and says quietly to Jan, "Um...he said hextuple bypass, not transplant. A transplant is a replacement of the heart, a bypass is a replacement of a section of coronary artery with a chunk of artery or, more commonly, vein, taken from elsewhere in the person's body, usually the legs. This is to get around a spot where the coronary artery is blocked and therefore limiting blood supply to part of the heart, so as to prevent or limit damage to the heart muscle." --Berek "It's a rough operation, but common" Halfaxe-- ============================================================================== Zen Druids practice Transcendental Vegetation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) Newsgroups: alt.callahans,misc.health.diabetes Subject: Re: Carl Lydick: An address for cards and letters Date: 5 Sep 1996 17:12:00 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <50nj7g$9ph@bermuda.io.com> References: <50mk2l$4kk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bermuda.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159656 misc.health.diabetes:43736 On 5 Sep 1996 13:20:21 GMT in misc.health.diabetes, barbara trumpinski said: : jan: : >Thanks for the research. However, I am puzzled by the assertion of 20% : >survival for this type of surgery. I'm pretty sure a heart transplant would : >have a higher success rate, so why bother with it? He was still walking, he : >was in much better shape than most people waiting for a transplant. : : kitten: : carl had other problems....the diabetes was bad, he had recurring : bouts with his appendix (but they wouldn't remove it), he had low : blood pressure, he was a chocolate junkie, and an alcoholic. "He said, also, there was a non-negligible chance he would come out of the operation in a persistent vegetative state. He was a very poor candidate for surgery of any type." : also, i don't think he really wanted ANY kind of surgery (although : that is speculation and i hesitate to make it for fear of a lightning : bolt.) "If the surgery would have entailed an acceptable risk, he wouldn't have had so many doubts about it, I don't think. Also, he told me he trusted one of the doctors who'd likely be in charge of his case as far as he could throw him (to wit, not at all). Also, don't forget he did have serious qualms about assigning a power of attorney to someone, Soprano in particular, for the purpose of authorizing someone to pull the plug on him, should it become necessary. If he could have trusted his doctors to honor his wishes, that last wouldn't have been so much a consideration, seems to me." Leslie Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.csd.net!ares.csd.net!mark From: mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 6 Sep 1996 01:09:24 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company Lines: 36 Message-ID: <50ntk5$qmu@apollo.csd.net> References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <322d051d.0@eden.adam.com.au> <50mvkn$ms2@nadine.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ares.csd.net Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159666 randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) writes: >In article <322d051d.0@eden.adam.com.au>, >stephen white wrote: >> >>Examiner of Logic sets up an experiment in response to the question. He >>tells some guards to savagely whip someone from the village. >> >[...] >"This is sickening. It's the kind of thing which Fast Eddie's >blackjack is there to prevent, in Spider's Callahans. I thought it was hilarious; 'tho I wouldn't ever want to be on the receiving-end, myself. >"I say any ethical point which can only be made by brutalizing some >innocent is false. Enough, 'Examiner,' enough." EOL used only words; yet you react as if they were real. It would seem, that either you are mocking the patrons, or we are at opposite ends of the spectrum of opinions. I'll do for you, what I did for those who opposed Carl; I ask...can you restate EOL's arguments in your own reference frame, or provide him a way to make his position more acceptable to you? What I mean, I suppose, is...can you provide a format whereby Examiner of Logic can explain himself without offending you? The alternative is simply to educate you in the use of desciptive language to make a point more clear. Y' know...black and white TV is a drag and manufacturers are working to make color sets even more brilliant, more exciting. >R. Mark Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!emr1!minotaur!dhalliwe From: dhalliwell@nofc.forestry.ca (Dave Halliwell) Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker X-Nntp-Posting-Host: minotaur.nofc.forestry.ca Message-ID: Sender: news@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca Organization: Natural Resources Canada, Ottawa X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <50hcd2$i3v@news1.infinet.com> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:07:32 GMT Lines: 71 Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159733 Another visitor appears, having heard about the bar as a result of the recent passing of Speaker. This visitor knew him as Carl in the sci.* groups. The visitor has been watching the bar for a while, but has held back his words as he has assimilated the information available, and mourned in his own way. The bar seems to be full of people familiar with Speaker. There are even a few familiar faces, from outside the bar, of people draw to this place for the same reason: Robert, Bruce, muon - hello to you and to all the others. A snippet of conversation catches his ear... jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) writes: > It wasn't until he attacked something that >the other person considered important that they cared about his language. > I guess it's the cynic in me. Somehow I enjoyed the hypocrisy of >those who didn't care about Speaker until he attacked something that THEY >had their druthers about. "I would have to say that I can't ever remember Carl using any of his "abuse" on me, and that may colour my perception of him. Oh, yes we had our disagreements: my first memory of anything resembling a confrontation involved a statement of mine respecting mathematics, to which he bluntly responded "Oh? How about ?". I responded with a post supporting my point, and the matter was dropped. As I grew to know him (well, his net.persona, anyway - I never had the pleasure of meeting the man in person), I realized that I must have shown that my original statement was reasoned rather than off-the-cuff, and the beast within was satisfied. "Later, I can remember a longer dialogue, regarding our viewpoints and recollections of a previous discussion. The last post from Carl concluded with "There. We're both right." As it stood, we _were_ "both right". Once again, the beast remained within. "His approach to the net never bothered me. I used to start reading some threads, whose subject headings did not interest me, simply because Carl's name appeared in the list. He seemed like a bellwhether - his vitriol often serving as an early warning that a protagonist really *was* a moron. In sci.skeptic, I can remember him being referred to as "our point man". His ability to pick apart bogus arguments sure saved the rest of us a lot of time. "I also can't recollect many instances - if any at all - where Carl didn't give a person at least a couple of posts before he'd unleash the beast. Quick to temper, yes, but always with a point to make. Even if he'd tear apart a "luser" asking about ftp or such, he offer a solution with a caveat that he was assuming the luser was on a particular type of machine (e.g. Unix). "A couple of weeks ago, I saw a play where a couple were hosting a cocktail party, and the wife slowly lost control and ended up leaving home altogether. The husband was someone Carl would have had a field day with: as sharp as a bag of hammers, and totally devoid of the ability to reason beyond his immediate experience. Near the end of the play, one of the guests asked him if he would miss his wife. He answered, in all honesty, "I don't know. She's never been gone before." "*I* damn well know I'm going to miss Carl. To Leslie and those here that seem to have known him well (I've not been here long enough to remember all the names): I envy you in that you knew him better than I, and I realize that this means that your sorrow in his passing must also be great. My best wishes go with you, and with Carl. "Will someone join me in a toast, before I continue my journey? -- Dave Halliwell I don't speak for my employers, and you Edmonton, Alberta shouldn't expect them to speak for me. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail From: deirdre@zap.io.org (Leslie) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 6 Sep 1996 03:32:26 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. Lines: 51 Message-ID: <50ok2a$4dm@zap.io.org> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50h5f6$fbq@zot.io.org> <50n4mo$mj6@fnnews.fnal.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: zap.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159729 On 5 Sep 1996 18:04:08 GMT in alt.callahans, said: : deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) writes: : >Chris Barnhart said: : >: : >: EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, whether based in fact or not. : : >"And," she adds. "StM would have called that statement one of the : >single most stupid things he'd ever heard. 'Whether based in fact : >or not'--good god, you really think an opinion based on figments of a : >person's imagination could be *worth* anything, to them or anyone else?" : : Two comments, : 1) who are you to judge whether such an opinion is worth something to them? "A good question. Okay, I am talking about non-trivial opinions here; not opinions that don't really affect a person's life, much. (Like the one about which author is better than another; it wouldn't hurt someone, I don't think, to think that.) "But, an opinion based on a figment of their imagination--such as, for example, prejudice--*is* harmful to them, because it means they aren't relating to reality properly; they have a head full of false data, which is bound to cause them to misinterpret the reality around them. And if a person *acts* on that prejudiced opinion (eg. All whites are prejudiced!), that could cause harm to others, as well. "So...of what worth *is* an opinion that's based in nothing more than a delusion, or a figment of the imagination? If a person clings to it in the face of proof to the contrary, they'll not be acting in their own best interests, seems to me." : 2) it depends heavily on what other evidence there is available. : if there is no other evidence and if it is known that this opinion : is based on imagination, maybe it has some worth. "Granted, if a person is unware of some facts, they could unknowingly have a baseless opinion. But your last sentence makes no sense to me. Could you you give an example of an opinion based in pure imagination that does have worth? Or perhaps a better word there is 'usefulness.' I grant that some things can be useless, but harmless. It's the useless and *harmful* ones I was most concerned about." Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!babylon5.babcom.com!babylon5.babcom.com!not-for-mail From: alaric@babylon5.babcom.com (The Renaissance Man) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick Date: 5 Sep 1996 22:30:48 -0700 Organization: The Babylon Project Lines: 32 Message-ID: <50ocu8$1ot@babylon5.babcom.com> References: <322608B3.33A2@pacbell.net> <50j3fq$b9m@apollo.csd.net> <50jshh$qm9@bermuda.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: babcom.com Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159731 Quoth leslie@io.com (Leslie): ] On 4 Sep 1996 05:18:50 GMT in alt.callahans, ] Mark Tarka said: ] : ] : OBTW...Dave...tell your wife I won't be able to make that lunch date ] : this Friday. ] ] Go away. Trollers aren't welcome in alt.callahans. Or not. We do ] enjoy a good laugh now and then, come to think of it, and your pitifully ] lame attempt at a flame was pretty hilarious. ] ] In my opinion, of course. "I didn't find it clever enough to be funny," Alaric comments sadly. "It was just rather pathetic. The poor sick little twerp probably can't get any other kind of attention. It really makes you wonder what we're coming to. I've no doubt the two lawsuits he cited were probably something on the level of suing Heinz because he spilled ketchup on his pants. "Well, he's now blocked from all my tcp services.... nntp, smtp, everything. I'm dumping him in with the spammers. He's fit company for them." -- Phil Stracchino Babylon Project System Administrator alaric@babcom.com Creator, alt.support.survivors.prozac The Renaissance Man http://www.babcom.com/jwz/alaric/ NRA, NRA-ILA, NRA-SATF, GOA, GOC, CRPA, CCRKBA, SAF, LEAA, NRAMC-SV Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV!MORPHIS From: morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 5 Sep 1996 21:33:36 GMT Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab Lines: 65 Message-ID: <50ngvg$5jn@fnnews.fnal.gov> References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <50hn8g$ktn@news1.infinet.com> ,<50k3hs$b47@news1.infinet.com> Reply-To: morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV NNTP-Posting-Host: d0niu3.fnal.gov Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159695 jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) writes: >David P. Murphy (dpm@access1.digex.net) wrote: >: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) writes: > >: >David P. Murphy (dpm@access4.digex.net) wrote: > >: >: abusive insults >: >: deliberately aimed at newcomers who failed to ask their questions >: >: 'properly', with the intent of making them feel so unwelcome that they >: >: would not post again > >: > Er, here you are attributing motives to an action when you don't >: >know the actor. Does this strike you as a good idea? > >: "I am not attributing motives. I am echoing the statements made >: by Carl himself. > > So Carl said something that paraphrases to "I want to make newcomers >feel so unwelcome that they don't post again."? How about "I want clueless newbies to go away"? >Can I find that on DejaNews? I doubt it. That was a paraphrase of either a post or an email to me in the late 80s or early 90s. Sadly I can not find it in any of my archives. As I _recall_ he basically said that being nice didn't work so in order to save bandwidth/improve signal to noise, he was going to insult them until they went away. I will admit that there may have been some small escape clause for those who came back with perfectly formed questions but the gist of it was he automatically considered them hopeless and just wanted them to go away. > BTW: Yes, that is *EXACTLY* the point of contention here. You are >saying you know WHY Carl acted a certain way. I'm saying "I'm very sure >that you're over-speaking yourself." I wouldn't be so sure :) > Did he insult people, deliberately, because they didn't ask their >questions 'properly'? I don't know for sure that he did, but I can believe >that. Assuming the Carl was not a lier (sp?) I can state definatively that he did. >I *STRONGLY* doubt that he wanted them to not post again; I'd bet >that he did it to get them to ask the question in a way that it can be >answered. I think he may well have changed to this stance later. 'Course one could note that there were a number of occasions when others did successfully answer the question that he felt was too vague. OTOH vague questions are a problem on comp.os.vms. It is not the vagueness that gets me, I understand ignorance, but the attitude that they expect us to be able to answer it as worded. Of course then there are the PC people and the UNIX people who expect vms to work just like their favorite OS... (he yanks back on his own chain) sorry about that, didn't mean to start a rant. :) Robert Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.interlog.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail From: deirdre@zap.io.org (Leslie) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Carl Lydick - From a passing stranger. Date: 6 Sep 1996 03:52:54 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <50ol8m$4rb@zap.io.org> References: <917cc$1767.a9@HERMES> <50fiuq$i36@peabody.colorado.edu> <322cee13.9629451@news.usit.net> <50l6m4$qf1@peabody.colorado.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: zap.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159737 On 5 Sep 1996 00:25:40 GMT in alt.callahans, Robert Parson said: : to place. _Usually_, Carl would give a poster the benefit of the : doubt the first time around. However, as time proceeded (I watched him : over a period of about four years) it seemed to me that he stopped : making these distinctions and adopted a "shoot first" policy. "It did depend on the subject, I think. And his patience for 'morons' had run low, too. I know if the subject was *himself* (around a.c., anyway) he would shoot first and not ask questions later, sometimes." : I flamed him once for what I considered a wholly unjustified attack, : and somewhat to my surprise he didn't strike back. "That meant you were right, it was unjustified. I flamed him rather royally, myself, here in a.c. not that long ago. He deserved it, by god. And he never said word one in objection, ever. He let the flame stand, uncontested. "That must be a pretty select group, though, don't you think? People who've flamed Carl, and lived to tell the tale? :)" Leslie. Not to mention the times I threatened him with a 2X4... -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.stealth.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!not-for-mail From: faharve1@prairienet.org (Faith A. Harvey) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Speaker, goodbye.... Date: 6 Sep 1996 05:47:02 GMT Organization: Prairienet Lines: 35 Message-ID: <50odsm$rbn@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bluestem.prairienet.org X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159689 Faith comes back into Callahan's carrying a rose of deep crimson which she puts on the chair where Speaker used to sit. "Good bye, old friend. You had many thorns but somehow there was also some love left in there." "Speaker and I had our confrontations. Hell, I decided that I had had enough of him when he decided to call a friend a 'dumb polack' (offending me because I am partially Polish and very proud of this fact). But, Speaker also showed it when he cared about someone. I was going through a *very* tough time in my life, severe depression and all. I posted here about going to the psychiatrist that my psychologist at school recommended and having the doctor writing the perscription for lithium before he had even talked to me...my reaction was to walk out. Speaker not only agreed with my methods of dealing with it, he tried to be *helpful* and help me work through the pain and get some of the help that I needed. I still get bouts of depression now and again, but I am slowly coming out of it...with the help and support of my friends. Between Speaker and John Palmer, they helped so much during a *very* dark time." "So, no, I can't Speaker-bash too much. I didn't particularly like his methods, but I did know that there was a human being there...someone who helped me when I was in need. I wish there would have been something that I could have done to help him...if he needed help." Faith quits speaking from her couch to the assembled patrons and goes back to snuggling her sweetie. -- ***************************************************************** Faith Harvey -- Manhattan, IL -- Prairienet's Resident Virtue INFORMATION SUPERHIGHWAY:Interactive Network For Organizing, Retrieving, Manipulating, Accessing, and Transferring Information On National Systems, Unleashing Practically Every Rebellious Human Intelligence, Gratifying Hackers, Wiseasses, And Yahoos. - anon. ***************************************************************** Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 6 Sep 1996 11:38:01 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 17 Message-ID: <50p2ep$ac9@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <50hcd2$i3v@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159746 dave halliwell: > "*I* damn well know I'm going to miss Carl. To Leslie and those here >that seem to have known him well (I've not been here long enough to >remember all the names): I envy you in that you knew him better than I, >and I realize that this means that your sorrow in his passing must also be >great. My best wishes go with you, and with Carl. > "Will someone join me in a toast, before I continue my journey? kitten lifts her glass of bacardi and diet yet again and joins dave in another toast to carl. *crash* -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 6 Sep 1996 12:38:08 GMT Organization: InfiNet Lines: 20 Message-ID: <50p5vg$l47@news1.infinet.com> References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159752 Jan Vorbrueggen (jan@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de) wrote: : jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) writes: : > Was it the mere mention of a personal tragedy, or an attempt to : > dredge up "pity points"? : Come on, read the damn thread - David has told you where it's available! Why should I read "the damn thread"? I don't CARE. The person I'm replying to DOES care. . . he should look over his actions in that thread and decide for himself. What, do you think I'm some divine judge of rightness in action? I'm flattered, but I'm not such a judge. : > Er, here you are attributing motives to an action when you don't : > know the actor. Does this strike you as a good idea? : You should know better than to ask this silly question. You should know better than to accuse someone of "asking" a question that's clearly a rhetorical one. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 6 Sep 1996 12:41:43 GMT Organization: InfiNet Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50p667$l47@news1.infinet.com> References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <50hn8g$ktn@news1.infinet.com> ,<50k3hs$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50ngvg$5jn@fnnews.fnal.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159753 morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV wrote: : jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) writes: : >: "I am not attributing motives. I am echoing the statements made : >: by Carl himself. : > : > So Carl said something that paraphrases to "I want to make newcomers : >feel so unwelcome that they don't post again."? : How about "I want clueless newbies to go away"? Nope, that doesn't paraphrase to my above quote. It specifies a subset of newbies that he wishes would go away. Since "cluelessness" and "newbiedom" are both correctable problems, it also doesn't suggest that he wants people to "feel so unwelcome that they don't post again." : > BTW: Yes, that is *EXACTLY* the point of contention here. You are : >saying you know WHY Carl acted a certain way. I'm saying "I'm very sure : >that you're over-speaking yourself." : I wouldn't be so sure :) I would be, and am. . . and I'm more sure now. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.ksu.ksu.edu!hptemp1.cc.umr.edu!imorgan.math.umr.edu!user From: imorgan@umr.edu (Ilene H. Morgan) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:27:26 -0600 Organization: University of Missouri-Rolla Lines: 68 Message-ID: References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50lbi5$c5g@lex.zippo.com> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: imorgan.math.umr.edu Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159779 Since I may (or may not) be going ABVND (v := voluntary) for a while, I might has well put in my two microcents while I'm thinking about it. My view of Carl is that he claimed to be in favor of open debate and honesty, when in actuality (recently, anyway) he was just as biased and just as prejudiced as anyone--perhaps more so, and perhaps less willing to acknowledge that. I've had discussions recently in which I was given pages of advice about how to "handle" Carl. One of the *first* and most frequent pieces of this advice was to "take him literally". Unfortunately, I took him literally when he said that he was more interested in establishing what was true than in having people agree with him, so I got off on the wrong foot with him and he never took me seriously after that. Basically, I was using the wrong rule book (or, at least, an expired one). I know that Carl had several friends, and I don't begrudge them their fond memories. But *too many people* have been suggesting, outright or by implication, that people who incurred Carl's flames invariably deserved it. That's *false*, and it's insulting to anyone (Jaelle comes to mind) who got into a flame war with him simply by posting on a topic which hit one of his hot buttons and, politely but firmly, refusing to be intimidated into backing down when the facts were on his/her side. In article <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net>, sewiv@izzy5.izzy.net (Sanford E. Walke IV) wrote: >Zaphkiel wrote: >: In article <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com>, jpalmer@infinet.com says... >: > I think Leslie 'really' meant that "opinions that ignore facts are >: >worthless". e.g., I can have the opinion that the sky is 'really' pink, >: >but that's worthless as an opinion. . . it ignores an observable fact. >: I sat on the beach and watched the sun go down over the Gulf of Mexico >: tonight. There were several large clouds in the sky. For about 20 minutes >: the sky was pink. >: Does the fact that I watched and enjoyed a beautiful sunset make me >: a liar, or a moron? >Z, nobody used those loaded words until you did. John slipped in his >example by using a color that the sky actually is on occasion. How about >replacing "pink" with, oh, "chartreuse with black stripes and silver polka- >dots"? Does that make the concept any more clear to you, or are you once >again ignoring clarity in favor of sounding cool? I contend that Speaker *often* ignored clarity in favor of sounding cool. The "positive" way of saying this is that Speaker would feel free to dismiss a statement as incorrect without bothering to say *what* was incorrect about it; he expected people to be clear in their statements. If you wanted to communicate with him, you had to be ready to go through several iterations before something was stated to his satisfaction. I'm not making a value judgement on which communication style is better. But what *really pisses me off* is seeing people applauding a particular behavior from one source and belittling it if it comes from another, based (apparently) on the reputation of the source and not much else. Ilene sorely tempted to leave the Place for a LONG while -- Ilene H. Morgan, Ph. D. |"Moral excellence comes about as a Assistant Professor of Mathematics| result of habit. We become just University of Missouri-Rolla | by doing just acts, temperate by e-mail: imorgan@umr.edu | doing temperate acts, brave by Standard disclaimers apply. <*> | doing brave acts." --Aristotle Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.wildstar.net!news.ececs.uc.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!news.dacom.co.kr!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.postech.ac.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!ames!enews.sgi.com!insync!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 5 Sep 1996 22:48:28 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <50o6uc$2bk@xanadu.io.com> References: <322C1C42.3E9B@interlog.com> <50ig56$pnq@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50ld56$95j@risky.ecs.umass.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159790 On Wed, 4 Sep 96 17:16:47 GMT in alt.callahans, said: : : Good bye, Carl. Finally having found the key to unlocking the hold that sadness and emptiness have had on her this past week and a half, Leslie whispers into the void, "Good-bye, Carl..." Leslie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp.earthlink.net!usenet From: BetNoir Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:42:38 -0700 Organization: BetNoir Pirate Wenching Academy Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3230466E.5238@earthlink.net> References: <50baus$jps@xanadu.io.com> <50f4dr$qsk@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: max2-vgd-ca-28.earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; U) Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159792 MaryPCB wrote: > > >StM 101 > > we should write it. a course in basic logic is really useful It's already out there - known as Speech and Debate. Which probably saved my ass in more ways than one when I dealt with Speaker. State your facts, reference them, then draw your conclusions from those facts. It's good to have interesting thoughts and ideas, but if you can't present them in a logical manner, they are basically useless. BetN<---who, to this day, thinks the best thing her dad ever did for her was to kick her ass into Speech and Debate in high school.... Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp.earthlink.net!usenet From: BetNoir Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Carl Lydick: An address for cards and letters Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:00:35 -0700 Organization: BetNoir Pirate Wenching Academy Lines: 13 Message-ID: <32304AA3.4B2A@earthlink.net> References: <50mk2l$4kk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: max2-vgd-ca-28.earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; U) Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159797 barbara trumpinski wrote: > carl had other problems....the diabetes was bad, he had recurring > bouts with his appendix (but they wouldn't remove it), he had low > blood pressure, he was a chocolate junkie, and an alcoholic. And if he was an alcoholic - that would have only aggrevated the diabetes. A friend of mine who is a insulin-dependent diabetic once likened a glass of beer to three large pieces of bread slathered with butter in terms of the sugar content. Sounds to me like Carl was not taking the best care of himself as a diabetic.... Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.PBI.net!usenet From: The Polymath Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Carl Lydick: An address for cards and letters Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:27:15 -0700 Organization: Polymath Enterprises Lines: 28 Message-ID: <32306D03.5AA@pacbell.net> References: <50mk2l$4kk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32304AA3.4B2A@earthlink.net> Reply-To: polymath@pacbell.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-206-171-250-50.vntrcs.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159812 BetNoir wrote: >And if he was an alcoholic - that would have only aggrevated the >diabetes. A friend of mine who is a insulin-dependent diabetic once >likened a glass of beer to three large pieces of bread slathered with >butter in terms of the sugar content. > >Sounds to me like Carl was not taking the best care of himself as a >diabetic.... My impression was that Carl was determined to live, as nearly as possible, the life he would have led had he been in perfect health. He ate what he wanted, drank what he wanted, went where he wanted and did what he wanted to the greatest extent he was able. In order to survive that life style he checked his blood sugar level frequently and compensated with insulin as appropriate. From a medical standpoint, he was not doing the best he could for his health. However, from Carl's standpoint, he was living his life as he wanted to live it, and that was far more important to him than health or longevity. It may not have been everyone's choice, but it was Carl's and I respect it. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP) polymath@pacbell.net <<<===PLEASE NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS http://www.babcom.com/polymath <<<===AND NEW HOME PAGE URL (818) 882-6309 Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!news.us.world.net!ns2.mainstreet.net!sloth.swcp.com!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!lynx.unm.edu!tiguex.cs.unm.edu!mandersn From: mandersn@tiguex.cs.unm.edu (Mark A. Anderson) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) Date: 6 Sep 1996 17:47:34 GMT Organization: The University of New Mexico, Department of Computer Science Lines: 32 Sender: news@tiguex.cs.unm.edu Message-ID: References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <5057no$7pb@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tiguex.cs.unm.edu Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159821 *Big Tex wanders in off the street, hanging his hat by the door* *places a dollar on the bar and orders a blue bubble-gum Slurpee* *walks to the line deep in thought as he sips it* I've been trying to think of what I want to say since I first spotted this thread half-an-hour ago. I sometimes lurk and occasionally post in here. It's been a while for many reasons, but today I hit the wrong key in my newsreader, and ended up in alt.callahans even though I didn't think I had time to visit. I've been doing that far to much recently (thinking I didn't have time for this place). I immediately saw a huge thread, and decided to scan through it for Speaker's posts, until I saw the subject. I can't say that I liked Speaker, or agreed with all of his positions, but I always respected his posts. Others have said that he had little patience for people who spoke before they thought. In a way that was what I liked most about Speaker. He was one of very few people I've ever met that really did think before they spoke. *breaks down and doesn't know where to go from here* *slurps the bottom of his Slurpee and tosses the cup into the fire* To Speaker. *watches the cup burn in the fire, then turns around, hoping (knowing) that there are others in the bar who would like to share a hug* Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!vance From: vance@alumnae.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 6 Sep 1996 20:41:44 GMT Organization: Caltech Alumni Association Lines: 32 Message-ID: <50q2a8$egh@gap.cco.caltech.edu> References: <50edqm$ksi@ilx018.iil.intel.com> <50khto$76g@news.mich.com> <50mk4d$sp2@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <50n7qn$fod@zot.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: alumnae.caltech.edu Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:155034 In article <50n7qn$fod@zot.io.org>, Leslie wrote: > >He was laid off due to the project losing its funding. The GPS >secretary reports that he would have received a 'minor reprimand' >at most for any complaint about his posting style. > That's not true. Funding for Space Telescope WF/PC ends in December, and if Carl had not been fired in June, then it is true that he would've been laid off in December. Because the funding end is so close, a replacement will not be hired (I had asked). Carl lost his job because he had been repeatedly warned over a long period of time about his net activity from Caltech and that the problem was its association with Caltech. Going back to another post, Carl's employers are not "assholes". I worked in the WF/PC group while I was an undergraduate a number of years ago. I know Carls boss, he is one of the nicest guys around and highly respected and did a favor for Carl by hiring him after he was fired from the Physics dept a number of years ago. Caltech was EXTRAORINARILY TOLERANT of Carl's net activity. He never headed the warnings. Carl should have gotten an account at an ISP and posted from there. Why he didn't I don't know. Associating non-work-related posts with your work is dangerous. I post from my alumni account because Ehud Gavron had contacted my employer in January of 1993 and threatened to sue for a usenet post I made. Despite the fact that my employer agreed that it would've been frivilous, I decided to move my posting to another account. One has to be careful when one's job is involved. -- Vance Haemmerle vance@alumni.caltech.edu Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!mvb.saic.com!info-vax From: "Christopher Jovais" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: Carl (No Last Name Required Message-ID: Date: 29 Aug 1996 07:53:34 U Organization: Info-Vax<==>Comp.Os.Vms Gateway X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List Lines: 18 Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:155030 Hey Shit-For-Brains (I know you're reading this somewhere), I currently have 37 messages from you which I've saved because of their = high technical quality. Many more fit into that category, some deleted, = some on other systems from the past. On more than one occasion I laughed = aloud at a scathing post to Info-VAX in which you were involved directly = or indirectly. Sure there were times when it grew tiresome but life = grows tiresome some days eh? I've read your postings for 10 years and = you will forever be synonymous with this newsgroup in my mind. You've = help me numerous times, I'll probably never forget you. I will = definitely miss you. Peace be the journey (Cool Runnings). Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!erich.triumf.ca!music ~From: music@erich.triumf.ca (Fred W. Bach, TRIUMF Operations) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 6 Sep 1996 13:28 PST Organization: TRIUMF: Tri-University Meson Facility ~Lines: 45 Distribution: world Message-ID: <6SEP199613285468@erich.triumf.ca> ~References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <50hn8g$ktn@news1.infinet.com> <50k3hs$b47@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: erich.triumf.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159867 In article <50k3hs$b47@news1.infinet.com>, jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) writes... [ snip ] # Did he insult people, deliberately, because they didn't ask their #questions 'properly'? I don't know for sure that he did, but I can believe #that. I *STRONGLY* doubt that he wanted them to not post again; I'd bet #that he did it to get them to ask the question in a way that it can be #answered. To your first question, Yes, if he perceived that they *should* have know better. I have that in writing from him somewhere..... He did NOT always do it to the poster's first post. I believe he claimed his technique was the only thing that worked on some people. However, you are correct about your conclusions above. He wanted the users to post again with the correct information. Also he flamed people as an example of what happened to you if you don't both use your head and post the relevant information. For those who explicitly admitted their total ignorance, he was mild and helpful. For those who more or less bragged how smart they were and then made stupid blunders, well, he let them know. To those who wrongly guessed at the right answer, which answer would have resulted in more trouble, well, he flamed them pretty badly. Many of you are forgetting the times he corrected himself on a subject and actually apologized (OK, in Italian - search for "mia cupla" if that's how it's spelled). But he only did that, as far as I remember, if he was the first one to catch his mistake. There's no doubt in my mind he raised the *technical* level of the discussion and frightened the real newbies and foolish back into the books and reading online help where they belong. However, I don't say his technique was the proper one. Just that it had an effect. Fred W. Bach , Operations Group | Internet: music@triumf.ca TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility) | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6327/6278 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS | FAX: 604-222-1074 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 2A3 "Accuracy is important. Details can mean the difference between life & death." These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question. They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers. Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.csd.net!ares.csd.net!mark ~From: mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick ~Date: 7 Sep 1996 05:07:52 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company ~Lines: 14 Message-ID: <50qvv8$47b@apollo.csd.net> ~References: <322608B3.33A2@pacbell.net> <50j3fq$b9m@apollo.csd.net> <50jshh$qm9@bermuda.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ares.csd.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159923 leslie@io.com (Leslie) writes: >On 4 Sep 1996 05:18:50 GMT in alt.callahans, >Mark Tarka said: [snip...] >Go away. Trollers aren't welcome in alt.callahans. Or not. We do >enjoy a good laugh now and then, come to think of it, and your pitifully >lame attempt at a flame was pretty hilarious. [snip...] Troll...trollers...? Baiting...looking for a flame-fest? What _does_ the word mean? Mark Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!erich.triumf.ca!music ~From: music@erich.triumf.ca (Fred W. Bach, TRIUMF Operations) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Carl Lydick - From a passing stranger. ~Date: 6 Sep 1996 13:58 PST Organization: TRIUMF: Tri-University Meson Facility ~Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <6SEP199613583155@erich.triumf.ca> ~References: <917cc$1767.a9@HERMES> <50fiuq$i36@peabody.colorado.edu> <322cee13.9629451@news.usit.net> <50l6m4$qf1@peabody.colorado.edu> <50ol8m$4rb@zap.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: erich.triumf.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159914 In article <50ol8m$4rb@zap.io.org>, deirdre@zap.io.org (Leslie) writes... [ snip ] #"That must be a pretty select group, though, don't you think? People #who've flamed Carl, and lived to tell the tale? :)" [ snip ] The first time I met Carl online I did. And I was right and he knew it. It as about being careful when taking a new prescription. Fred W. Bach , Operations Group | Internet: music@triumf.ca TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility) | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6327/6278 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS | FAX: 604-222-1074 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 2A3 "Accuracy is important. Details can mean the difference between life & death." These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question. They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!cornellcs!uw-beaver!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!erich.triumf.ca!music ~From: music@erich.triumf.ca (Fred W. Bach, TRIUMF Operations) ~Newsgroups: misc.health.diabetes,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Question about Speaker ~Date: 6 Sep 1996 15:05 PST Organization: TRIUMF: Tri-University Meson Facility ~Lines: 96 Distribution: world Message-ID: <6SEP199615051776@erich.triumf.ca> ~References: <322AFAD5.344C@den.mmc.com> <50hsae$8d@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <4SEP199618114012@erich.triumf.ca> <50m1gs$1qv@metro.atlanta.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: erich.triumf.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50 ~Xref: news2.digex.net misc.health.diabetes:43806 alt.callahans:159855 In article <50m1gs$1qv@metro.atlanta.com>, mbh_eyh@ioa.com writes... #music@erich.triumf.ca (Fred W. Bach, TRIUMF Operations) wrote: #> Furthermore, outlawing folk medicines for #> 20 or so years (Typical restricted public test period: consider #> Advil and Tagamat) just to to the requisite tests *without proof #> that they are harmful* just ain't very nice at all. The real #> responsibility is to present the *evidence* that something is #> harmful, and the statistical eveidenc of what good it does, if #> any. Then let the consumer decide. There are way more deaths #> from prescription drugs than from herbal sources. # #Guessing you meant "'evidence' that something is NOT harmful" - #that would require a huge amount of testing. Or are you just #saying present evidence that in cliical trials as far as the #producer could find no one was harmed or they were harmed in only #limited ways. # #In a very reasoned and calm article I only strongly disagree this #you last staement above. Tobacco has a long history of use as a #folk remedy. It is still claimed as a tranquillizer ("I hellps #me calm down") and a digestive aid. I challenge you to name a #precription drug that kills as many as does tobacco. I would #estimate that tobacco kills more than all other licit drug deaths #combined (ethyl alcohol may be an exception, but there is another #folk cure widely used and misused). # #Matt # My answer to this got wiped out by an error, so here we go again: Basically we are in agreement. Sure, tobacco is often used as a counter example. But that's not looking with sharp enough vision. Whereas tobacco has been used culturally since Sir Walter's day (when its use went from the native cultures of North America into European cultures), an analysis of its use has demonstrated its harmfulness. To my way of thinking, tobacco must be on this planet for external use such as a bug-spray for crops (it works). You have no right to draw the conclusion on all other herbs that you draw on tobacco. If that were fair game, then I could draw the same conclusion on all pharmaceuticals because one particular tranquilizer caused severe birth defects. Not fair game. However, consider goldenseal, a marvellous herb with certain antibiotic properties, even recommended by my allergy specialist for my sinusitis! Its sale in dried and prepared form was recently opposed by certain agencies both US and Canadian, and legislation was on the table to that effect. In the USA, the only way it could have been sold would have been like celery or lettuce is sold in a grocery store. However, it seems that the public's right to purchase this herb in dried and ground form was rescued in the nick of time by an amendment to the legislation, as was our freedom of speech to say what it did for us. The proposed legislation precipitated the largest letter-writing campaign that Washington ever saw. They found out which side their bread was buttered on. If someone invents a new chemical that has not been tried on the public before, then I applaud the systems in place to protect the public against the dangers of untested products. But when a product has indeed been tested for years, and by doctors of old including native healers, why interfere and just ban it because nothing has been written on it in the form that the agencies deem necessary? Especially if it is not a public health problem? Tobacco is, but few if any other herbs are. The puny answer the agencies give is that there are no papers on it proving it to be safe. Well, let me ask you this - did you take out the garbage this morning? You did? Well, then did you write a paper and do a study on it and publish it? You didn't? Well, then it never happened. To just ignore the good work of herbal doctors over the past centuries is like saying that science was invented in the 20th century. It's arrogance, pure and simple. There is just no other word for it. And, as I said before, it steps on religious rights. I happen to know of a goldenseal formula that was marvellous at curing my sore throats and light chills. I have ovserved its effects on children too. But now the company has been litigated or otherwise pressured and the recipe has been effectively banned. Why, I ask. It worked so very well. Why? See next paragraph. When you get right down to the nitty gritty, and this is where the skeptics come all into their own, the herbal business in British Columbia rivals the lumber industry here, and boy do we grow and cut a lot of trees and make a lot of money at it! From the monetary figure alone, the cynically minded might have their own ideas on what is behind the broad effort to ban medicinal herbs. Fred W. Bach , Operations Group | Internet: music@triumf.ca TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility) | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6327/6278 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS | FAX: 604-222-1074 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 2A3 "Accuracy is important. Details can mean the difference between life & death." These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question. They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!cornellcs!uw-beaver!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!erich.triumf.ca!music ~From: music@erich.triumf.ca (Fred W. Bach, TRIUMF Operations) ~Newsgroups: misc.health.diabetes,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Question about Speaker ~Date: 6 Sep 1996 15:47 PST Organization: TRIUMF: Tri-University Meson Facility ~Lines: 126 Distribution: world Message-ID: <6SEP199615474398@erich.triumf.ca> ~References: <322AFAD5.344C@den.mmc.com> <50hsae$8d@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,<4SEP199618114012@erich.triumf.ca> <50n3ko$mie@fnnews.fnal.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: erich.triumf.ca News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50 ~Xref: news2.digex.net misc.health.diabetes:43807 alt.callahans:159856 In article <50n3ko$mie@fnnews.fnal.gov>, morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV writes... #As pointed out in another reply this is not true if you include #tobacco. If you can tag all herbs with the taint of tobacco then I can tag all pharmaceuticals with the taint of thalidomide. If you read *my* post you would see that I excluded herbs which had been *proven* harmful. There should be a post in between that one and this one which also speaks to the matter. #Buy it? ok. But to advertize and sell anything as medicine without #significant evidence as to it's efficacy and side-effects? I must #respectfully disagree with you if you support that. Listen, Robert, there is personal experience. There is freedom of speech. Was science invented in the twentieth century by the FDA and the pharmaceutical companies? If I have found herbs which have done me and others a world of good when medical science hasn't what right in heck have you got to say that I am lying, to say that it didn't happen, and to stifle my right to tell my own personal experiences and personal conclusions? I'll tell you what right - none! And on that Speaker agreed in the end, as rights cannot be denied. I got him on that point. #sci.med had a thread that touched on this, Camilla Cracchiolo stated that #she would like to see licensed herbalists (apparently this is the situation #in at least some countries in Europe). Unlike what you may be taught by the big pharmaceutical drug companies who must guard their shareholders' interests, - is not that in and of itself reason for skepticism? - Science was NOT invented in the 20th century. Herbs have been effectively used for many centuries before this one. It's the reason the human race is still around. Herbs were helping cure illness long before any of those guys were born or their agencies even thought of. And good for Camilla! # #Currently the FDA can only get involved with food additives once it receives #evidence that a food additive is harmful. Thus it is now moving to #regulate "Herbal Ectacy" Oh, brother, this was NOT their plan. You sound like a man who never read the proposed legislation. In fact, you sound like a young person with little experience in life (but I don't know that for sure). You also sound like a person who might believe everything the big boys tell him. You really ought to educate yourself into people's real motives. You ought to get hold of the *original* proposals. I did, and commentaries on its consequences. The FDA and its legislators were forced into this present arrangement by amendments to their proposed legislation by the biggest letter-writing campaign Washington ever saw. In the proposed legislation most if not all herbal preparations would have been banned until they had gone through the same (eg., 20-year) clinical trials that the drug companies have to put their *new* inventions through. Now do you know what monetary effect such a heavy hammer would have on the herbal industry? Sure you do. It would be to kill it dead for twenty years. And in the mean time, where would the public have to spend its money? To which gods would they have to bow down? Why to the WMP (Western Medical Priesthood) of course. Do you think they were looking at the good of the public or the financial good of the stockholders? On a field of some herbs you can make 50 times the money you can on wheat, and in BC here we can grow nearly anything. Do you think their motivation was altruism, or do you think it was money??? #I would support licensing herbalists who know what the various side-effects #and synergies are/might be and giving the FDA some additional power over #concentrated extracts and those products that have some history of #significant negative side-effects. These powders and preparations have been made by doctors and herbalists for centuries. They are even now being used extensively by movie stars. There are many old books on the subject which the agencies just appear to dismiss lock stock and barrel because science was invented by them in the twentieth century, as it were. #I certainly wouldn't stop anyone who wanted to grow their own and I would #start by presuming safety as far as allowing the unregulated sale of #herbal supplements as long as there is no advertising for medical uses. # #Robert Robert, I resent anyone taking away my right to purchase dried herbs (forcing me to grow them myself), taking away my right to read about their history, and taking away my right to listen to people's experiences with them, and taking away my right to tell my own experiences with them. It is simply a matter of FREEDOM OF SPEECH and FREEDOM OF RELIGION. I have the right to say something as my personal experience. And I can say what I believe. There's laws that protect me. You of course have the same right. You also have the right to say that you don't believe me, and to produce and present your evidence that what I say is wrong. But I don't have the right to stifle your free speech and you certainly don't have the right to stifle mine. And I believe that this is what the WMP is afraid of. People will actually learn that some herbs will help them and maybe then they won't have to buy those expensive pharmaceuticals. Drug making is a big business. Since when has big business by multinationals been altruistic? It's like the old chiropractor story. Skeptics can say what they will, but if you ever have gone to one and had a problem instantly relieved when medical doctors couldn't do the trick - well then you will know that the WMP certainly doesn't know everything and they aren't the gods they think they are. I can tell some very good stories. Fred W. Bach , Operations Group | Internet: music@triumf.ca TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility) | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6327/6278 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS | FAX: 604-222-1074 University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 2A3 "Accuracy is important. Details can mean the difference between life & death." These are my opinions, which should ONLY make you read, think, and question. They do NOT necessarily reflect the views of my employer or fellow workers. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news ~From: Stan ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Fuck you Speaker! How could You! ~Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 15:21:57 -0700 Organization: AlliedSignal ~Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3230A405.6201DD56@bombay.gps.caltech.edu> ~References: <322BCCC1.6C82@iafrica.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: thhpc.gps.caltech.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE i386) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159859 donpaul wrote: > > DonPaul goes to bed a sadder man at the passing of a mind he met in a new > and exciting world. Suddenly, the virtues of the Internet have become > terribly real - it isn't vitual at all. It's people! And people die. And When I came to work here about a year and half ago, I knew of Carl through comp.os.vms and his fire-breathing reputation there. Still, I didn't realize at first that he was just in the building across the street from me. Anyway, one day I did something kind of stupid on the system here and needed help. I posted my question to comp.os.vms, and I got a reply almost immediately from Carl. He explained exactly what I had done wrong and how to fix it. I was stunned. When I saw the 'New mail from carl@sol1...' I thought I was about to sprout a new orifice, but he was very nice about the whole thing. Later that day he wandered across the street and introduced himself. It was really a shock, since he was so pleasant in RL. Not at all like people from the net expected. Anyway, he saved my butt that day, and a couple of other times since. I'm going to miss him. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stan Schwarz | "I just want to live like Yogi Bear stan@bombay.gps.caltech.edu | He kicks ass on the average bear." ---------------------------------------------------- -Stukas Over Bedrock ----- Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.iadfw.net!David ~From: elcabalero@aol.com (The Gentleman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 14:16:46 GMT Organization: White Knight Consulting ~Lines: 14 Message-ID: <50pisi$pok@library.airnews.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <50hcd2$i3v@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.121.14.131 X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 X-No-Archive: Yes ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159852 In article <50hcd2$i3v@news1.infinet.com>, jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) wrote: }It wasn't until he attacked something that }the other person considered important that they cared about his language. "Not quite true. My first tangle with StM, well before the PD mess, was over his language towards kitten. I got shouted down, bigtime, including by the 'victim'. I also made it clear that I objected to his instant assaults on everything he didn't consider acceptable according to 'Truth, Justice, and a Rational Universe.' Many times, this led to vicious attacks as he would instantly assume that if I would defend it, I must believe it. Even after I would tell him I didn't, he would just call me a liar and attack some more." UT Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.PBI.net!usenet ~From: The Polymath ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 23:14:34 -0700 Organization: Polymath Enterprises ~Lines: 16 Message-ID: <323112CA.CC9@pacbell.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> <50d6dv$li@decaxp.harvard.edu> <50jb6o$h9k@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50q57o$3oj@news.orst.edu> ~Reply-To: polymath@pacbell.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-206-171-250-73.vntrcs.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159912 Unbeliever wrote: >The Unbeliever, who's been lurking in this thread while arranging his >thoughts for his own post about Carl, *CANNOT* *POSSIBLY* imagine a more >cruel and vicious God than the one which inflicted Diet Mountain Dew on >an unsuspecting mankind... What about the God that afflicted us with _caffeine free_ Diet Mountain Dew? (It's sort of like a Nerf(tm) steak knife. What's the point?) -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP) polymath@pacbell.net <<<===PLEASE NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS http://www.babcom.com/polymath <<<===AND NEW HOME PAGE URL (818) 882-6309 Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!trellis.wwnet.com!news.bconnex.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newsie.dmc.com!acs1.star.net!news ~From: "Adam E. Ek" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 22:18:02 -0600 Organization: StarNet ~Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3230F77A.7068@aol.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> ~Reply-To: adamek@aol.com NNTP-Posting-Host: boston29p.star.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159896 Wayne S Garmil wrote: > Wayne walks over to the fireplace and adds his empty glass next to > Sasquatch's (and probably many others). Say it ain't so! I've been off for a few weeks and I find this thread. Adam goes over and starts a pyramid on top of Wayne and Sasquatch's glasses. Adam Ek (IMHO, I think he's going to be haunting the Place waiting for the ultimate delurk.) Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!news.orst.edu!ucs.orst.edu!byersr ~From: byersr@ucs.orst.edu (Unbeliever) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 6 Sep 1996 21:31:36 GMT Organization: The Land ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <50q57o$3oj@news.orst.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> <50d6dv$li@decaxp.harvard.edu> <50jb6o$h9k@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucs.orst.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159857 In article <50jb6o$h9k@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Kelly Miller wrote: >A Diet Mountain Dew (God's gift to mankind), to Carl. The Unbeliever, who's been lurking in this thread while arranging his thoughts for his own post about Carl, *CANNOT* *POSSIBLY* imagine a more cruel and vicious God than the one which inflicted Diet Mountain Dew on an unsuspecting mankind... Be True... -=*> Unbeliever <*=- EMAIL: byersr@peak.org WEB: http://www.peak.org/~byersr "I mean, why not just drink urine? It's *GOT* to taste better..." Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!news.orst.edu!ucs.orst.edu!byersr ~From: byersr@ucs.orst.edu (Unbeliever) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 7 Sep 1996 00:20:22 GMT Organization: The Land ~Lines: 103 Message-ID: <50qf46$6bk@news.orst.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ucs.orst.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159861 In article , Ilene H. Morgan wrote: >This is about the fourth attempt at a reply to Leslie. The first three came >out too long and too scathing. Ilene does not want to start or propagate >a flame war, but she has had to bite her virtual tongue so hard, and so often, >that, were she biting her real tongue, it would be a bloody pulp by now. The Unbeliever listens and nods. It's a feeling he knows very well, just now... >I maintain (YMMV, and all that) that (lately) >he was more interested in winning arguments than in establishing what was >correct. In my opinion, this made him a hypocrite. A big one. The Unbeliever nods more vigorously. Except he wouldn't have been so quick to qualify it with "lately". >"Recently, I read some archived posts from December 1993, and the StM >I saw was very different. I think, if December 1993 StM would have read >some of the posts by 1996 StM, he would have been horrified. Unbe arches an eyebrow for a moment, and then becomes lost in thought. >>On 31 Aug 1996 16:11:43 -0700 in alt.callahans, >>Pat Kight said: > >>: He certainly never flamed me, or belittled me, or >>: made me feel like an idiot. > >>"Because you didn't *argue* with him, you *listened* to him, and debated >>things with him in a thoughtful, logical way." > >"This is bullshit, Leslie. I tried to think of some other way to word >this, but nothing else expressed my opinion adequately, so there it is. "Thank you, Ilene. I came very close to saying this myself, but I don't think Leslie would have taken it as well, coming from me. For unlike Jez, Speaker *DID* flame and belittle me, on several occasions. The first time was before I'd ever spoken to him; I didn't even know who he was..." Unbe steels himself for the speech he must now give. "It's been said in this thread that Speaker was an asshole. It's been said grudgingly, alongside lots of praise for his intelligence, for ``making us think'', for standing up to what he believes in, and so on." "I deny none of his good traits. He *WAS* intelligent. He *WAS* logical. He *DID* make people think. But in my opinion, he was something worse than ``just an asshole''. Something bad enough to overshadow the good parts." "Speaker to Minerals was an intentional giver of pain." "Now, this is a bad enough thing on its own, but Speaker found a way to make it much, much worse. You see..." "He did it *HERE*." Unbe pauses for emphasis. "Of all places, of *ALL* *PLACES*, for someone to practice hurt and pain, to make them into an art form all his own, Speaker to Minerals had to do it in the ONE place dedicated to lessoning pain: Callahan's Place. I don't care what his motives were. I don't care what his defenders say. Intentionally causing pain *HERE* is unforgivable." The Unbeliever turns a solemn gaze to the fireplace, and addresses his long-time nemesis directly... "I realize it must make me a horrible person in the eyes of some of the Patrons here, but I do *NOT* raise a toast to you, Speaker. You brought pain to me personally, and to many other undeserving souls in the Place. And I won't forgive you for that. I'm sorry you're dead, and I'm sorry for your affliction. But you asked no quarter, and you shall receive none from me. Intentional pain is never justified..." "I don't know how you managed it, but some very good people care a great deal about you. Jezebel, Kitten, Leslie..." Unbe sighs. "For their sake: Rest in peace, Speaker." Be True... -=*> Unbeliever <*=- EMAIL: byersr@peak.org WEB: http://www.peak.org/~byersr Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 7 Sep 1996 02:38:36 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 27 Message-ID: <50qn7c$2r4@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50lbi5$c5g@lex.zippo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159910 Zaphkiel wrote: : In article <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com>, jpalmer@infinet.com says... : > I think Leslie 'really' meant that "opinions that ignore facts are : >worthless". e.g., I can have the opinion that the sky is 'really' pink, : >but that's worthless as an opinion. . . it ignores an observable fact. : > : I sat on the beach and watched the sun go down over the Gulf of Mexico : tonight. There were several large clouds in the sky. For about 20 minutes : the sky was pink. So did you infer from that observation that the sky is really pink everwhere? : Does the fact that I watched and enjoyed a beautiful sunset make me : a liar, or a moron? It does if you infer something stupid from that sunset. Why did you bring this up, BTW? My response was (I believe) to a response to Leslie. Leslie had said "opinions not based on fact are worthless", and I said "I think she would have said "opinions that ignore facts are worthless" if she'd been thinking about what she wanted to say." I then went on to post an example of that: deciding to be of the opinion that the sky is 'really' pink. . . ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.put.com!main.put.com!silence ~From: Rose Platt ~Subject: Re: A greeting (was Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ~Sender: usenet@news.put.com (The Root) Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> <322CE579.2978@alliance.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <322CE579.2978@alliance.net> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: main.put.com ~Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:12:07 GMT ~Lines: 29 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159872 On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, Lissa & Eric McCollum wrote: > Rose Platt wrote: > > > --Rose, considering a new character named "Skunk Cabbage" to get away > > from that smells-as-sweet business once and for all > > > > "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." > > --Mark Twain > > Lissa grins impishly, and says, "Well then, Greetings Mr. Twain! :)" Rose returns the grin. "Why, thank you," she says, and for a moment her voice is much deeper than the usual contralto and she seems to have sprouted a ghost of a bushy grey mustache.... > "Honestly though. I seem to have arrived at both alt.callahans and > #callahans after you were a regular. I don't know what happened. > I don't care what happened. But, I would like to buy you a drink > in greeting and welcome." "I never saw you in #c and have only recently caught your posts here. Thanks for the welcome; may I buy you a drink in return?" --Rose "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." --Mark Twain ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ingress.net!news.new-york.net!news.put.com!main.put.com!silence ~From: Rose Platt ~Subject: Re: Lurker and StM Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ~Sender: usenet@news.put.com (The Root) Message-ID: ~References: Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Nntp-Posting-Host: main.put.com ~Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:44:35 GMT ~Lines: 11 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159883 "Neither myth nor persona is anything like required," Silence says with a slightly rueful smile. "I hope that you become more comfortable here in the future. May I buy you a drink to ease the newness and help you feel at home?" --Silence "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." --Mark Twain ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ingress.net!news.new-york.net!news.put.com!main.put.com!silence ~From: Rose Platt ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ~Sender: usenet@news.put.com (The Root) Message-ID: ~References: <322F3759.3317@ftn.net> <50ntf1$5ip@izzy4.izzy.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50ntf1$5ip@izzy4.izzy.net> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: main.put.com ~Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:48:51 GMT ~Lines: 25 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159864 On 6 Sep 1996, Sanford E. Walke IV wrote: > Ch'kai (chkai@ftn.net) wrote: > : Sanford E. Walke IV wrote: > > : > Not a hedgehog, though. > > : Ch'kai pauses to offer two minor comments: > > : 1) You'd have to be REALLY careful! > > : 2) What if you're a hedgehog? > > That was actually a Pratchett reference. Silence laughs. "I knew it! Anyone up for a rousing chorus of 'A Wizard's Staff Has A Knob On The End'?" --Silence, who swears that someday she will use the words "wossname" and "thingy" in a sentence "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." --Mark Twain Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!HiWAAY.net!usenet ~From: mjn@HiWAAY.net (Smokerise) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: niceness and Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 7 Sep 1996 01:08:59 GMT Organization: HiWAAY Information Services ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <50qhvb$um6@parlor.hiwaay.net> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> <50cl5c$o0c@apollo.csd.net> <50d83u$55k@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,<50deq8$qgh@apollo.csd.net> <50hhfb$jmn@fnnews.fnal.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: max7-86.hiwaay.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159895 In article <50hhfb$jmn@fnnews.fnal.gov>, morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV says... > >My apologies to the info-vax crowd, this will be my last post to c.o.vms >on this subject. > >mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) writes: >>Camilla Cracchiolo writes: >> [Snipped the start of a flame war] How ironic if a full-blown flame war should erupt over what Carl said and meant. This one has everything - visions of conspiracy, Holocost, jackboot thunder - the works. * Smokerise toasts a small plaque inside the fireplace. -- ============== Smokerise (AKA Mike Norton) ================ - Creator of improbable gadgets that always work. - Incarnation of Willie Armitage (Mission Impossible) - yhpruM's Law applies - if it can possibly work, it will Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.csd.net!ares.csd.net!mark ~From: mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: niceness and Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 7 Sep 1996 02:21:30 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company ~Lines: 49 Message-ID: <50qm7a$397@apollo.csd.net> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> <50cl5c$o0c@apollo.csd.net> <50d83u$55k@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,<50deq8$qgh@apollo.csd. NNTP-Posting-Host: ares.csd.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159908 morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV writes: [snip...] >mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) writes: [snip...] >>contacting his employer. I recall a poster from Isreal actually >>publishing a Caltech address people could use. >I remember that minor conflict, I and a number of other people took the >Israeli to task for his suggestion. He was quite surprized, thought >there was a language problem. >>Carl had a good time skewering the jew (if he was) > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>with a sharply pointed "Nazi" barb, which >>of course caused the expected reaction amongst those in opposition. > >Considering that the Nazis murdered something like 14 million people >because they were of the wrong ethnic group or religion or sexual >orientation, not to mention the ?20 million Russians and however many >others they killed in the war I think it not unreasonable to be very >restrained in the use of that label. My main feed tends to purge fairly >often but I don't recall Carl defending his use of Nazi after he was >taken to task for it. >If you have some reason to believe that Carl actually enjoyed >"skewering the jew" I would suggest that Richard was right in his >suggestion that Carl was sick in more than one way. (My own feeling >was that Carl was human with all that that implies) Carl's clearly articulated point was, that the jew was attempting to censor language _he_ deemed unappropriate...something the nazi's were capable of doing. Isn't it ironic...? [snip...] >gmt1810@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes: >>In article <504fv7$j68@corn.cso.niu.edu>, [This is you, me, you, isn't it, Bob? snip...] >>>Real Men change diapers >> >>Real men don't _wear_ diapers :-) Shit for brains. >Presumably the :-) applies to only the first comment not >the "Shit for brains". Real men don't wear diapers; although, you (and Agent) should wear one as a babushka, for the obvious reason :-) Mark Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.csd.net!ares.csd.net!mark From: mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 7 Sep 1996 15:03:30 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company Lines: 42 Message-ID: <50s2s2$7ve@apollo.csd.net> References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <50hn8g$ktn@news1.infinet.com> <50k3hs$b47@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ares.csd.net Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159933 jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) writes: >David P. Murphy (dpm@access1.digex.net) wrote: >: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) writes: >: >David P. Murphy (dpm@access4.digex.net) wrote: >: >: abusive >: >: insults deliberately aimed at newcomers who failed to ask their questions >: >: 'properly', with the intent of making them feel so unwelcome that they would >: >: not post again >: > Er, here you are attributing motives to an action when you don't >: >know the actor. Does this strike you as a good idea? >: PhaseOfTheMoon puts down his pen. he mulls over possible responses >: for a while, then sighs and takes the low road. >: "I am not attributing motives. I am echoing the statements made >: by Carl himself. > So Carl said something that paraphrases to "I want to make newcomers >feel so unwelcome that they don't post again."? Can I find that on >DejaNews? > BTW: Yes, that is *EXACTLY* the point of contention here. You are >saying you know WHY Carl acted a certain way. I'm saying "I'm very sure >that you're over-speaking yourself." > Did he insult people, deliberately, because they didn't ask their >questions 'properly'? I don't know for sure that he did, but I can believe >that. I *STRONGLY* doubt that he wanted them to not post again; I'd bet >that he did it to get them to ask the question in a way that it can be >answered. I have a dated rather extensive statement of Carl's philosophical approach on this issue. Essentially, he lays out some ground-rules for posting intelligently. The document is on another machine; send me mail requesting the file POST.DOC and I'll fetch it for you :-) Mark ichjsmt@earth.oscs.montana.edu Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn From: Zaphkiel Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 7 Sep 1996 00:26:21 -0700 Organization: zaphkiel@acun.com Lines: 90 Message-ID: <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50lbi5$c5g@lex.zippo.com> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp001.acun.com Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159942 In article , imorgan@umr.edu says... >In article <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net>, sewiv@izzy5.izzy.net (Sanford E. >Walke IV) wrote: > >>Zaphkiel wrote: > >>: In article <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com>, jpalmer@infinet.com says... > >>: > I think Leslie 'really' meant that "opinions that ignore facts are >>: >worthless". e.g., I can have the opinion that the sky is 'really' pink, >>: >but that's worthless as an opinion. . . it ignores an observable fact. > >>: I sat on the beach and watched the sun go down over the Gulf of Mexico >>: tonight. There were several large clouds in the sky. For about 20 minutes >>: the sky was pink. >>: Does the fact that I watched and enjoyed a beautiful sunset make me >>: a liar, or a moron? > >>Z, nobody used those loaded words until you did. John slipped in his >>example by using a color that the sky actually is on occasion. How about >>replacing "pink" with, oh, "chartreuse with black stripes and silver polka- >>dots"? Does that make the concept any more clear to you, or are you once >>again ignoring clarity in favor of sounding cool? Nobody used them? You think I just plucked them out of thin air? The problem is that these words were used all the fucking time, in exactly the same way. The point that Leslie made was that opinions that you couldn't back up with proof were worthless. She agreed with speaker that the burden of proof was always on everyone *else* to prove their opinion had factual basis. Then John, who realized that this is bullshit, tried to change the line of attack (by redefining what she 'really' meant) to 'an opinion that is based on *false* proof is worthless'. The problem here, once again, is that he assumes that the burden of proof falls on everyone *else*. His opinion (that the sky is blue) is taken as a given. The opinion that the sky is pink is false until proven true. This is the central hypocrisy of speaker. His opinion, according to him, was fact until proven false (and long after that, in most cases). And everyone else's opinion was suspect until they were able to provide proof that their opinion was correct.(or that they agreed with him) The people who bought into this bullshit are the people who stayed in Callahan's and became speaker's friends. The people who argued against this bullshit were insulted, abused, and ridiculed until they either left a.c. completely, or quit trying to argue. Or became one of the speaker-bashers. So, yes, it's not surprising that speaker has a lot of friends here. He did everything he could possibly do to chase away everyone who was willing to disagree with him directly. Leslie has come out and said that in order to argue with speaker, you had to say "yes, you're right, but..." That was the only thing he would accept. And that *isn't* arguing. So, Sandy, if you see someone trying to contend that the sky is made of silver and green polka dots, then feel free to prove them wrong. If you can do that, more power to you. It needs to be done sometimes. However, if someone says that 'Zaphkiel is an asshole' and you say 'oh, yeah, then prove it'.... and that person doesn't prove it, that does NOT mean I'm NOT an asshole. It doesn't prove that that opinion is wrong, it just provides you with a cheap method of claiming victory. If you use it (as speaker did countless times) and go on from there to insinuate that the person who didn't provide proof MUST be either a liar or a moron, then you are being just as intellectually dishonest as he was. All opinions are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Anyone who tries to put their opinion above this rule will be my enemy for life. And I AM an asshole. >I contend that Speaker *often* ignored clarity in favor of sounding cool. >The "positive" way of saying this is that Speaker would feel free to dismiss >a statement as incorrect without bothering to say *what* was incorrect >about it; he expected people to be clear in their statements. If you >wanted to communicate with him, you had to be ready to go through several >iterations before something was stated to his satisfaction. That is exactly why I never communicated with him. I tried to meet him half-way, and found that we were still seperated by the other half. > >I'm not making a value judgement on which communication style is better. >But what *really pisses me off* is seeing people applauding a particular >behavior from one source and belittling it if it comes from another, based >(apparently) on the reputation of the source and not much else. > >Ilene >sorely tempted to leave the Place for a LONG while Your choice, of course. I would like to point out that among this crowd, chasing other people out gains you respect, and being chased out gains you a reputation as a loser. This is wrong, of course, but it IS the legacy of speaker. You know that as well as I do. Don't get mad, get even. --Zaphkiel Cool as fuck Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!news.orst.edu!news ~From: Jezebel ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 13:55:51 -0700 Organization: Oregon State University ~Lines: 72 Message-ID: <32308FD7.5334@peak.org> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> <50setr$faj@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip140.ucs.orst.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win16; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159951 John Palmer wrote: > > True, and false. Kinda. I mean, it might be that the reason Jez > never got into fights with Speaker was that she didn't argue with him > without listening to him. . . but the converse isn't true. I know that > there were times when I got into fights with him when I was listening to > him and was being thoughtful and logical. It was a potentially necessary > condition to "not being flamed" to argue logically and thoughtfully; it > wasn't sufficient. Jezebel, having said pretty much what she had to say about her own relationship with Speaker, squirms a little at the thought of everyone speculating about *why* she didn't suffer his common slings and arrows. "I'm not sure I know all the reasons, myself," she says, slowly. "I think there were several reasons. When I misspoke myself, I was willing to rethink what I'd said and try to clarify my thoughts. When I was right and Speaker was wrong, I tried to say so in a non-combative way. "In either such case, when I'd explained myself, Speaker most often responded with a simple acknowledgment: `OK,' or `That makes sense.' "When I felt he was bordering on irrationality - and I grant that he could sometimes come off that way -- I usually walked away from the discussion. "It's been suggested, by someone very dear to me, that this amounted to `pussyfooting' around him, and capitulating to a bully." The Spinster shrugs. "I never saw it that way, but I suspect - no, I *know* - my interaction with him was based on my own personality and communication style. I don't much care for conflict; I rarely feel the need to `win' a debate, or to get the last word. Oh, I'll fight when I have to, like a tigress -- but fighting takes a lot of energy. I'm just lazy enough to save that energy for the really important fights, and Usenet, frankly, is rarely the place I wage them. "When I've expressed my point as clearly as I can, in keeping with my own beliefs and ethics, then that's enough for me. I don't see much point in repeating myself over and over; I'd rather get on with other matters. "I understand that others do not share my position on such things, and that their experiences with Speaker were much different from mine. We are, after all, different people. I do not deny their experiences. I just know that my own were, by and large, respectful and cordial on both sides." --Jezebel kightp@peak.org Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ftpbox.mot.com!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!juand.earth.nwu.edu!jed ~From: jed@juand.earth.nwu.edu (John DeLaughter) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 6 Sep 1996 16:00:17 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL, US ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <50phqh$co@news.acns.nwu.edu> ~References: <50mrd9$bnh@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: juand.earth.nwu.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159977 Jan Vorbrueggen writes: >jed@juand.earth.nwu.edu (John DeLaughter) writes: > >> BTW - How do you tag anything with helium? I thought only the >> higher noble gasses played those games. > >You don't. I wrote H-3, which is tritium. (Sound in the background of brain finally engaging.) Well, duh! Remind me not to post pre-cofee, willya? John DeLaughter Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 7 Sep 1996 17:46:09 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 269 Message-ID: <50stvh$rj8@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159956 On 7 Sep 1996 00:26:21 -0700 in alt.callahans, said: : In article , : imorgan@umr.edu says... : >>Zaphkiel wrote: : >>: In article <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com>, jpalmer@infinet.com says... : >>: > I think Leslie 'really' meant that "opinions that ignore facts are : >>: >worthless". e.g., I can have the opinion that the sky is 'really' pink, : >>: >but that's worthless as an opinion. . . it ignores an observable fact. "Actually, I think 'useful' is a better word here than 'worthless.' Worthless does imply a value judgement; useful simply refers to the utility of the opinion. But otherwise yes, opinions that ignore observable facts don't deserve to be taken seriously." (Zaph:) : >>: I sat on the beach and watched the sun go down over the Gulf : >>: of Mexico tonight. There were several large clouds in the sky. For : >>: about 20 minutes the sky was pink. : >>: Does the fact that I watched and enjoyed a beautiful sunset make me : >>: a liar, or a moron? "Only if you insisted that the sky was pink at 12 noon also, because you'd happened to once notice it was pink at sunset, or if someone pointed to the sky at noon and said, 'look, it's not pink!' and you argued that it was so pink..." (Sandy:) : >>Z, nobody used those loaded words until you did. John slipped in his : >>example by using a color that the sky actually is on occasion. How about : >>replacing "pink" with, oh, "chartreuse with black stripes and silver polka- : >>dots"? Does that make the concept any more clear to you, or are you once : >>again ignoring clarity in favor of sounding cool? : : Nobody used them? You think I just plucked them out of thin air? The : problem is that these words were used all the fucking time, in exactly the : same way. "Nobody in this current discussion used those words. Nobody in this current discussion would call anyone a moron for saying 'the sky was pink at sunset.'" : The point that Leslie made was that opinions that you couldn't back up : with proof were worthless. She agreed with speaker that the burden of proof : was always on everyone *else* to prove their opinion had factual basis. "Not true. The other person has to prove a factual basis if they want to be taken *seriously*, however, especially if the other side provides evidence to counter the opinion. However, if someone were to simply say 'that's bullshit' (with no further explanation) about an opinion, then it would be completely fair to first insist that they give evidence to back up the assertion that the opinion is bullshit. *Both* sides ought to back up what they say." : Then John, who realized that this is bullshit, tried to change the : line of attack (by redefining what she 'really' meant) to 'an opinion that : is based on *false* proof is worthless'. The problem here, once again, is : that he assumes that the burden of proof falls on everyone *else*. His : opinion (that the sky is blue) is taken as a given. The opinion that the : sky is pink is false until proven true. "I don't think so--I don't think either I or John were talking at all about simply insisting that someone prove something without first demonstrating *why* they feel such proof is necessary to begin with. (eg: What evidence do you have for that? I have [this evidence] which contradicts what you said, etc.) In your example of the sunset, all you'd have to do would be to point to the sky and say, 'look, it's pink,' to prove your point. But, actually, that is not a opinion; I mean, I suppose we could argue that it's not pink colored, it's rose colored, but neither of us would be working with figments of the imagination, in that case." : This is the central hypocrisy of speaker. His opinion, according to him, : was fact until proven false (and long after that, in most cases). "He always did list his reasons and his evidence for his opinions, though. He supported his arguments. It seemed to me that problems came in when the subject under discussion was in fact a matter that did admit of various interpretations (depending on your point of view, and your own personal values). Of course he'd insist his interpretation was right; in his eyes, it was right, because he was measuring by his own personal standards. "For example, I asked the harmless question, 'when and where is WorldCon this year?' He responded that he was 'disgusted' to realize I didn't read _Analog_ magazine [since if I read Analog, I'd have surely known when WorldCon was], and that meant I wasn't keeping up on current SF. My reaction was 'I don't care.' So, I don't read current SF, I wasn't going to lose any sleep over someone bitching about it. And I said that, quite plainly. I didn't get flamed at all. Turned out he had a good reason for being annoyed; WorldCon memeberships include the right to vote on the Hugo awards, and if I wasn't keeping up on the short fiction, how could I vote intelligently? (He made the not-unreasonable assumption that I knew what membership in the WorldCon entailed.) "But, my point is: he stated his opinion; I stated mine. I felt that made us even; we both got our points of view out there. I wasn't about to argue with him over a matter of personal preference like that. I mean, sometimes it was like, so *what* if he disagrees? He had his reasons, I had mine. What, exactly, was there to argue *about*?" : And everyone else's opinion was suspect until they were able to provide : proof that their opinion was correct.(or that they agreed with him) "I think 'everyone' and 'correct' are overstatements. It had seemed to me that if you could at least show why what you thought was valid *for you*, if you could at least *match* his evidence for his side with evidence of your own, you could beat him to a draw. At least, I did that, on at least a few occasions. But I didn't need to 'prove him wrong,' I settled for proving him 'not necessarily right.'" : The people who bought into this bullshit are the people who stayed in : Callahan's and became speaker's friends. The people who argued against this : bullshit were insulted, abused, and ridiculed until they either left a.c. : completely, or quit trying to argue. Or became one of the speaker-bashers. "I don't think it's inaccurate to say that people who stuck around had at least found a way to tolerate him, or cope with him, or ignore him. It's true that people did quit trying to argue him into changing, because it was so obvious that he had no intention of changing, and arguing with him only added more flames to the atmosphere; and since the whole point of arguing with him was to achieve a *reduction* of flames, it did seem counter-productive. And people could be his friend without agreeing that everything he did was right, too." : So, yes, it's not surprising that speaker has a lot of friends here. He did : everything he could possibly do to chase away everyone who was willing to : disagree with him directly. Leslie has come out and said that in order to : argue with speaker, you had to say "yes, you're right, but..." That was the : only thing he would accept. And that *isn't* arguing. "Not quite accurate, Zaph. Not 'you're *right*, but...' What I did was to say, 'yes, *I see your point*.' Or, 'yes, I see why you think you're right, from your point of view, but here is another point of view...' And of course sometimes I said 'I think you're wrong, and here's why,' too. I *never* advocated 'rolling over and playing dead,' not at *all*, the very idea makes me queasy. I would advocate treading very *carefully*, though. He could acknowledge someone else's point of view too; sometimes it was with the brusque comment, 'Fine,' before he went on to make his own point, but he did it." : So, Sandy, if you see someone trying to contend that the sky is made : of silver and green polka dots, then feel free to prove them wrong. If you : can do that, more power to you. It needs to be done sometimes. However, : if someone says that 'Zaphkiel is an asshole' and you say 'oh, yeah, then : prove it'.... and that person doesn't prove it, that does NOT mean I'm NOT : an asshole. It doesn't prove that that opinion is wrong, it just provides : you with a cheap method of claiming victory. "Incorrect. If someone doesn't back up a claim with evidence, you can't claim that they're *wrong*, unless you *do* have evidence to the contrary; you can however say, quite fairly, 'I don't see any reason to believe you,' or 'in the absence of evidence, I'm reserving judgement on the issue.' Once StM did put forth a rather unsupported observation, which people argued with. When I said, well, from *my* point of view both sides of the argument were anecdotal, so I didn't know who to believe, he agreed it was fine if I reserved judgement. He did NOT go ballistic that I wasn't 'taking his word for it.'" : If you use it (as speaker did : countless times) and go on from there to insinuate that the person who : didn't provide proof MUST be either a liar or a moron, then you are : being just as intellectually dishonest as he was. "Can you give an example of a time when he did this? I'm surprised at you, slightly, since we are having a discussion about 'backing things up,' and here you are making an unsupported assertion." : All opinions are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Anyone who tries to put : their opinion above this rule will be my enemy for life. And I AM an : asshole. "I agree. With the first sentence above, that is...But, I would add the proviso that: 'but, if you don't back up what you say, you should be prepared for people to not take your bare word for something.' This sounds eminently fair, to me. "But, I disagree with your choice of example--opinions like 'Zaph is an asshole' are so purely subjective, and based so much in personal values and perceptions, they really *can't* be either proven or disproven. You can say 'I disagree, and here's why...' but all that really proves is that you disagree. For example, I really enjoy reading _Xanth_ novels. In my opinion, they're worth reading. Zillions of other people *don't* find anything in them worth reading. Does that make me wrong? I don't think so, no. I do still enjoy them." : >I contend that Speaker *often* ignored clarity in favor of sounding cool. : >The "positive" way of saying this is that Speaker would feel free to dismiss : >a statement as incorrect without bothering to say *what* was incorrect : >about it; he expected people to be clear in their statements. If you : >wanted to communicate with him, you had to be ready to go through several : >iterations before something was stated to his satisfaction. : : That is exactly why I never communicated with him. I tried to meet him : half-way, and found that we were still seperated by the other half. "I would agree that he could at times be quite difficult to communicate with. But it wasn't impossible by any means, either. It could be quite impossible to get him to *agree* with you, though, of course." : >I'm not making a value judgement on which communication style is better. : >But what *really pisses me off* is seeing people applauding a particular : >behavior from one source and belittling it if it comes from another, based : >(apparently) on the reputation of the source and not much else. "I don't know if you meant me here, Ilene, but I can't say as I 'applauded' his more difficult tactics; I understood them, though, and learned to deal with them. Yes, that meant playing the game his way, but, to me, that was the challenge of it; beating him at his own game. Or at least beating him to a draw, which was much more likely, and just as satisfying." : >Ilene : >sorely tempted to leave the Place for a LONG while : : Your choice, of course. I would like to point out that among this crowd, : chasing other people out gains you respect, "If you don't back that up, you'll understand when I say I don't believe you for one second, I hope? I does NOT describe me, in the SLIGHTEST, (which I put forth as evidence to disprove your claim.) And, I'm sorry, but one or two examples won't do; you're claiming the *majority* of the people here feel this way, and *that* is what I'd like you to back up. "And if you believe that...why in the name of god do *you* hang around, Zaph? I mean, my personal opinion of someone who would give respect based on the fact that they 'chased someone out of a.c.' is that they're pretty brain-dead. Not someone I'd have a whole lot of respect for, anyway." : and being chased out gains you : a reputation as a loser. "Ah. This most surely explains why StM didn't let the Speaker-bashers chase him out of a.c., I guess--? "C'mon, Zaph. This really *does* sound like bullshit to me. I never, ever, thought of someone as a 'loser,' if they left a.c. because of StM's flames. I wished that they could've found a way to cope, or tolerate, or ignore him, but I understood it if they couldn't do that." : This is wrong, of course, but it IS the legacy : of speaker. You know that as well as I do. Don't get mad, get even. "You can't get even with Speaker, Zaph. He's dead. Sorry to have to break it to you. It sounds like you're saying you're going to take your past anger at him out on the people currently here. I ask you, is that fair? "Of course it's wrong--but I think you're wrong to characterize a.c. the way you've done. What you just said was very insulting, you do realize that, right? You didn't use any 'bad words' at all, but still, you might as well have, because I feel just as insulted as if you had. "And, why did you do it? Because it was your personal reaction to what you were perceiving. And because you were standing on your right to express your opinions. This explains StM, as well." : --Zaphkiel "So...are you ever going to start using your real name, Zaph?" Leslie. Inside joke. Cc: Zaph & Ilene. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 7 Sep 1996 18:29:15 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 86 Message-ID: <50setr$faj@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159945 Ilene H. Morgan (imorgan@umr.edu) wrote: : In article <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: : >"He was complex and complicated and just plain didn't *think* the same : >way most other folks do, although most people tried to fit him into : >a category they were more familiar with, causing them to misunderstand : >him by quite a wide margin. : "Leslie, I'm not saying that my opinion should influence you in any way. : But, for your information, whenever you say something like this (which is : pretty damned often), it comes across to me as incredibly patronizing and : smug. I can understand how it comes across that way, but Leslie is correct in a sense: many people *DID* misunderstand Speaker because they tried to fit him into a category that he didn't fit into. This doesn't mean that this is the ONLY reason people had problems with him. . . that's why I try to emphasize that I don't mind people disliking Speaker. But many people DID hate him, not because of what he was, but because of what they thought he MUST be. : In article <50a3p2$ll6@pentagon.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: : >"He didn't care in the slightest about being liked or not, anyway. : >He had his priorities, and he knew what they were, and he held : >to them come hell or high water--and he paid the cost for it, too. (deletia) : "No, he didn't care about being liked--but he *did* care about being : respected intellectually. I maintain (YMMV, and all that) that (lately) : he was more interested in winning arguments than in establishing what was : correct. In my opinion, this made him a hypocrite. A big one. But, : as you say, he had no reason to change his tactics, because almost : everyone would say something like, 'Yeah, he's hard on people, but : he keeps us honest' or 'I don't care if he *is* right most of the time, : he shouldn't treat people like that'. This is exactly what he wanted. Shrug. I dunno. Ilene, this is something that I don't like, not because I'm sure you're wrong, but because I see too much possibility that you're not right. I don't think he wanted people to say "he keeps us honest" or "he is right most of the time". I think he APPRECIATED hearing that (not in the "I deserve to have that said" but in the "it's good that people recognize that I'm not just trying to cause hurt, because that means people are thinking") but I don't think that was his goal. I say this because I've seen times when a HUGE majority of Callahans was against him. . . and he didn't give much of a hint about changing. Shrug. It might be true (as you intimate later) that these people were his worst enemies, keeping him from seeing degeneration in himself. I don't know. . . I agree he was on a shorter fuse, but keep in mind that there *WAS* a period of time lasting at least a couple months where he and his tactics were being attacked here. That type of thing DOES tend to make people defensive and a bit self righteous. . . you can't show or admit to weakness when you're being attacked. Oh, I'm not saying Speaker was a good guy after all; I'm just saying that I don't think there's enough evidence to paint him as a bad guy . . . especially not as a bad guy who was soaking in the joy of 'good public opinion'. (No, that's not exactly what you said, but it was something that could be kinda-inferred from what you said.) : In article <50b2j1$frt@xanadu.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: : >On 31 Aug 1996 16:11:43 -0700 in alt.callahans, : >Pat Kight said: : >: He certainly never flamed me, or belittled me, or : >: made me feel like an idiot. : >"Because you didn't *argue* with him, you *listened* to him, and debated : >things with him in a thoughtful, logical way." : "This is bullshit, Leslie. True, and false. Kinda. I mean, it might be that the reason Jez never got into fights with Speaker was that she didn't argue with him without listening to him. . . but the converse isn't true. I know that there were times when I got into fights with him when I was listening to him and was being thoughtful and logical. It was a potentially necessary condition to "not being flamed" to argue logically and thoughtfully; it wasn't sufficient. cc: Ilene Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 7 Sep 1996 18:41:50 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 50 Message-ID: <50sfle$fet@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50lbi5$c5g@lex.zippo.com> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159946 Zaphkiel wrote: : The point that Leslie made was that opinions that you couldn't back up : with proof were worthless. She agreed with speaker that the burden of proof : was always on everyone *else* to prove their opinion had factual basis. : Then John, who realized that this is bullshit, tried to change the : line of attack (by redefining what she 'really' meant) to 'an opinion that : is based on *false* proof is worthless'. No, Zaph, what I did was point out that Leslie, as stated, was incorrect. . . but that I think she wanted to say something closer to correct. That "something I think she wanted to say" was "opinions that run counter to fact are worthless." I *DID NOT* redefine what she meant; I presented an alternative. She can say "you're right, John, I was wrong, and this *IS* what I really meant" or she can say "No, I meant what I said" (and try to defend that position). : The problem here, once again, is : that he assumes that the burden of proof falls on everyone *else*. His : opinion (that the sky is blue) is taken as a given. The opinion that the : sky is pink is false until proven true. The 'sky' is accepted to be 'blue'. Any change to that statement requires that one of the quoted words be redefined so that it no longer refers to what people accept it as referring to. : The people who bought into this bullshit are the people who stayed in : Callahan's and became speaker's friends. The people who argued against this : bullshit were insulted, abused, and ridiculed until they either left a.c. : completely, or quit trying to argue. Or became one of the speaker-bashers. You forget those who didn't buy into the bullshit, became semi-friends of speaker, and didn't bash or ridicule others. : So, yes, it's not surprising that speaker has a lot of friends here. He did : everything he could possibly do to chase away everyone who was willing to : disagree with him directly. Perhaps if you modified your statement to be less all encompassing, you'd be somewhat closer to the truth. Please, feel free to search the archives and see some of the old wars Speaker and I were in. I think the problem most people have with Speaker is that they figured that unless they got him to capitulate, they'd lost. Why they couldn't define "winning" as "accepting everything he said, and reaching a decision that he was wrong in any way that mattered to them, and thus feeling free to ignore him as currently meaningless", I don't know. . .because that's what I eventually did. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!usenet ~From: randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 7 Sep 1996 21:48:19 GMT Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <50sqj3$qbq@nadine.teleport.com> ~References: <50baus$jps@xanadu.io.com> <50f4dr$qsk@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3230466E.5238@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: linda.teleport.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159953 In article <3230466E.5238@earthlink.net>, BetNoir wrote: > >It's good to have interesting thoughts and ideas, but if you can't >present them in a logical manner, they are basically useless. > Randolph, grinning: "Unless, of course, you are an artist. Sorry I missed you at Worldcon, by the way." -- Randolph Fritz randolph@teleport.com "'Your minds are over-rated/Your spirits all are cowed'" --Heather Alexander Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!usenet ~From: randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 7 Sep 1996 21:54:16 GMT Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 ~Lines: 29 Message-ID: <50squ8$qg1@nadine.teleport.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <50hcd2$i3v@news1.infinet.com> <50pisi$pok@library.airnews.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: linda.teleport.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159955 >In article <50hcd2$i3v@news1.infinet.com>, > jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) wrote: >} >}It wasn't until he attacked something that the other person >}considered important that they cared about his language. >} In article <50pisi$pok@library.airnews.net>, The Gentleman wrote: > > "Not quite true. My first tangle with StM, well before the PD >mess, was over his language towards kitten. I got shouted down, >bigtime, including by the 'victim'. I also made it clear that I >objected to his instant assaults on everything he didn't consider >acceptable according to 'Truth, Justice, and a Rational Universe.' >Many times, this led to vicious attacks as he would instantly assume >that if I would defend it, I must believe it. Even after I would >tell him I didn't, he would just call me a liar and attack some >more." > "It wasn't true of me, either--I chose to become his enemy when I realized he was hurting people for no good reason. There have been many other people, some said publicly, some privately, who rejected Speaker's conduct before he ever attacked them or their ideas. "John, what you are trying to claim simply isn't true." R. Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 7 Sep 1996 23:15:33 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 28 Message-ID: <50svml$dld@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50lbi5$c5g@lex.zippo.com> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159957 zaphkiel: > That is exactly why I never communicated with him. I tried to meet him >half-way, and found that we were still seperated by the other half. [ilene's comment snipped] > Your choice, of course. I would like to point out that among this crowd, >chasing other people out gains you respect, and being chased out gains you >a reputation as a loser. This is wrong, of course, but it IS the legacy >of speaker. You know that as well as I do. Don't get mad, get even. > --Zaphkiel > Cool as fuck kitten snorts..."you didn't communicate with him because you could never reach his level (and whether this is a good thing or a bac thing remains to be seen) your flat out statement 'chasing other people out gains you respect, and being chased out gains you a reputation as a loser' is a lie. it is not even a strawman, it is a lie." -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 7 Sep 1996 23:19:34 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: <50svu6$doq@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <50baus$jps@xanadu.io.com> <50f4dr$qsk@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3230466E.5238@earthlink.net> <50sqj3$qbq@nadine.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159958 bet noir: >>It's good to have interesting thoughts and ideas, but if you can't >>present them in a logical manner, they are basically useless. >> >Randolph, grinning: "Unless, of course, you are an artist. Sorry I >missed you at Worldcon, by the way." kitten splutters, chokes and reaches for the ever present rag to clean *kitten* awful off of everthing in a large radius. -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 8 Sep 1996 02:39:33 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 28 Message-ID: <50tbl5$mnc@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <50hcd2$i3v@news1.infinet.com> <50pisi$pok@library.airnews.net> <50squ8$qg1@nadine.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159969 Randolph Fritz (randolph@teleport.com) wrote: : >In article <50hcd2$i3v@news1.infinet.com>, : > jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) wrote: : >} : >}It wasn't until he attacked something that the other person : >}considered important that they cared about his language. : In article <50pisi$pok@library.airnews.net>, : The Gentleman wrote: : > : > "Not quite true. My first tangle with StM, well before the PD : >mess, was over his language towards kitten. Er, you considered the use of such language toward kitten "important" then. I believe that you're taking my statement out of context as well. . . I was speaking of generalities, not of specifics. : "It wasn't true of me, either--I chose to become his enemy when I : realized he was hurting people for no good reason. There have been : many other people, some said publicly, some privately, who rejected : Speaker's conduct before he ever attacked them or their ideas. Randolph, as usual, that has NO RELATIONSHIP at all to what I said. I said people only objected to his language (though I should have said "tactics") once he attacked something they considered important. I didn't say "once he attacked THEM OR THEIR IDEAS". Just "something they considered important". I chose those words for a specific reason. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.iadfw.net!170-131-57 ~From: elcabalero@aol.com (The Gentleman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sun, 08 Sep 96 05:47:53 GMT Organization: White Knight Consulting ~Lines: 32 Message-ID: <50tmm9$i6g_001@ipt.aol.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50lbi5$c5g@lex.zippo.com> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 170-131-57.ipt.aol.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 X-US-Congress: FUCK OFF! ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159986 In article <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com>, Zaphkiel wrote: } } Your choice, of course. I would like to point out that among this crowd, }chasing other people out gains you respect, and being chased out gains you }a reputation as a loser. This is wrong, of course, but it IS the legacy }of speaker. You know that as well as I do. Don't get mad, get even. } "As someone who got chased out, I have to say that I don't agree with that. Many people wrote email and posted messages saying that they didn't agree with the way speaker was acting towards me, and *nobody* has made me feel less than welcome to be back. Including many of his closest friends, more than a few of which have explicitly welcomed me. "Yes, I felt like a loser, and looked like a loser. Want to guess why? I friggin' lost, that's why. Me and Carl traded insults at 10 paces, and I couldn't take it. I ran like a rabbit, and deliberately avoided threads that crossed between his groups and mine. He beat me. I accepted it, realized I had met my better in that department, and decided that I didn't *want* to be better at it than he was. "I am not defending Carl. I'm defending the people that had the sufficiently odd taste to *like* Carl. And that peculiarity does not give you permission to attack them for all the things that Carl did." UT -- Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. --Thomas Paine Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.iadfw.net!170-131-57 ~From: elcabalero@aol.com (The Gentleman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sun, 08 Sep 96 05:48:02 GMT Organization: White Knight Consulting ~Lines: 205 Message-ID: <50tmmi$i6g_002@ipt.aol.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50stvh$rj8@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 170-131-57.ipt.aol.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 X-US-Congress: FUCK OFF! ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159987 I missed placing a few . This is not intended to quote out of context. I just lost track. In article <50stvh$rj8@pentagon.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: }On 7 Sep 1996 00:26:21 -0700 in alt.callahans, } said: }: In article , }: imorgan@umr.edu says... }: >>Zaphkiel wrote: }: >>: In article <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com>, jpalmer@infinet.com says... }: >>: > I think Leslie 'really' meant that "opinions that ignore facts are }: >>: >worthless". e.g., I can have the opinion that the sky is 'really' pink, }: >>: >but that's worthless as an opinion. . . it ignores an observable fact. } }"Actually, I think 'useful' is a better word here than 'worthless.' }Worthless does imply a value judgement; useful simply refers to the }utility of the opinion. But otherwise yes, opinions that ignore }observable facts don't deserve to be taken seriously." "Observed by whom? I realize that the scientific method requires that events be reproducible, but human interaction, among other things, is almost always unique in some respect. Also, 'utility' implies a rational judgement of gain, and matters of emotion or aesthetics are not governed solely by reason. And Carl could be very insistent that neither had any place in a judgement of utility." } }(Zaph:) }: >>: I sat on the beach and watched the sun go down over the Gulf }: >>: of Mexico tonight. There were several large clouds in the sky. For }: >>: about 20 minutes the sky was pink. }: >>: Does the fact that I watched and enjoyed a beautiful sunset make me }: >>: a liar, or a moron? } }"Only if you insisted that the sky was pink at 12 noon also, because you'd }happened to once notice it was pink at sunset, or if someone pointed to }the sky at noon and said, 'look, it's not pink!' and you argued that it }was so pink..." "But what if you said 'the sky is blue', I said 'except when it's pink', and you immediately launched into a diatribe about how stupid I was to say it was pink? What if you insisted that I had said it was *always* pink, and refused to allow me to qualify that statement? What if I proved that the sky is, sometimes, pink, and you continued to insist that since I hadn't touched logical first base, I was still a liar?" }: This is the central hypocrisy of speaker. His opinion, according to him, }: was fact until proven false (and long after that, in most cases). } }"He always did list his reasons and his evidence for his opinions, though. }He supported his arguments. It seemed to me that problems came in when }the subject under discussion was in fact a matter that did admit of }various interpretations (depending on your point of view, and your own }personal values). Of course he'd insist his interpretation was right; in }his eyes, it was right, because he was measuring by his own personal }standards. "And rejecting the validity of other standards. That's the point." } }"For example, I asked the harmless question, 'when and where is WorldCon }this year?' He responded that he was 'disgusted' to realize I didn't }read _Analog_ magazine [since if I read Analog, I'd have surely known }when WorldCon was], and that meant I wasn't keeping up on current SF. My }reaction was 'I don't care.' So, I don't read current SF, I wasn't going }to lose any sleep over someone bitching about it. And I said that, quite }plainly. I didn't get flamed at all. Turned out he had a good reason }for being annoyed; WorldCon memeberships include the right to vote on }the Hugo awards, and if I wasn't keeping up on the short fiction, how }could I vote intelligently? (He made the not-unreasonable assumption }that I knew what membership in the WorldCon entailed.) "And got disgusted at you for what seems to be a rather petty thing. And, again, look at his implicit assumption that your value system should be like his. That you would class the Hugo voting as so important that you would read lots of short fiction, and that you could not possibly miss a 1 paragraph blurb towards the back of the book. And that a failure in *any* way to agree with his value system was grounds to be disgusted with you." } }"But, my point is: he stated his opinion; I stated mine. I felt that }made us even; we both got our points of view out there. I wasn't about }to argue with him over a matter of personal preference like that. I }mean, sometimes it was like, so *what* if he disagrees? He had his }reasons, I had mine. What, exactly, was there to argue *about*?" "If you had said that you didn't think the Hugo awards were important enough to study for, what do you think his reaction would have been?" } }: So, yes, it's not surprising that speaker has a lot of friends here. He did }: everything he could possibly do to chase away everyone who was willing to }: disagree with him directly. Leslie has come out and said that in order to }: argue with speaker, you had to say "yes, you're right, but..." That was the }: only thing he would accept. And that *isn't* arguing. } }"Not quite accurate, Zaph. Not 'you're *right*, but...' What I did was }to say, 'yes, *I see your point*.' Or, 'yes, I see why you think you're }right, from your point of view, but here is another point of view...' }And of course sometimes I said 'I think you're wrong, and here's why,' }too. I *never* advocated 'rolling over and playing dead,' not at *all*, }the very idea makes me queasy. I would advocate treading very }*carefully*, though. He could acknowledge someone else's point of view }too; sometimes it was with the brusque comment, 'Fine,' before he went on }to make his own point, but he did it." "Why the hell should I have to tread so carefully? What, besides his status as a net.legend, made Carl so worthy of walking on eggshells around? The fact that he could flame the paint off the wall, that's what. And that's intimidation, no matter what you call it." } }: So, Sandy, if you see someone trying to contend that the sky is made }: of silver and green polka dots, then feel free to prove them wrong. If you }: can do that, more power to you. It needs to be done sometimes. However, }: if someone says that 'Zaphkiel is an asshole' and you say 'oh, yeah, then }: prove it'.... and that person doesn't prove it, that does NOT mean I'm NOT }: an asshole. It doesn't prove that that opinion is wrong, it just provides }: you with a cheap method of claiming victory. } }"Incorrect. If someone doesn't back up a claim with evidence, you }can't claim that they're *wrong*, unless you *do* have evidence to the }contrary; you can however say, quite fairly, 'I don't see any reason }to believe you,' or 'in the absence of evidence, I'm reserving judgement }on the issue.' Once StM did put forth a rather unsupported observation, }which people argued with. When I said, well, from *my* point of view }both sides of the argument were anecdotal, so I didn't know who to }believe, he agreed it was fine if I reserved judgement. He did NOT }go ballistic that I wasn't 'taking his word for it.'" "And what was his attitude towards those that were opposing his statement? This 'purely anecdotal' difference of opinion?" } }: If you use it (as speaker did }: countless times) and go on from there to insinuate that the person who }: didn't provide proof MUST be either a liar or a moron, then you are }: being just as intellectually dishonest as he was. } }"Can you give an example of a time when he did this? I'm surprised at }you, slightly, since we are having a discussion about 'backing things }up,' and here you are making an unsupported assertion." } }: All opinions are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Anyone who tries to put }: their opinion above this rule will be my enemy for life. And I AM an }: asshole. } }"I agree. With the first sentence above, that is...But, I would add the }proviso that: 'but, if you don't back up what you say, you should be }prepared for people to not take your bare word for something.' This }sounds eminently fair, to me. "Not take my word for it? No problem. Work me over like a punching bag?" }: >I contend that Speaker *often* ignored clarity in favor of sounding cool. }: >The "positive" way of saying this is that Speaker would feel free to dismiss }: >a statement as incorrect without bothering to say *what* was incorrect }: >about it; he expected people to be clear in their statements. If you }: >wanted to communicate with him, you had to be ready to go through several }: >iterations before something was stated to his satisfaction. }: }: That is exactly why I never communicated with him. I tried to meet him }: half-way, and found that we were still seperated by the other half. } }"I would agree that he could at times be quite difficult to communicate }with. But it wasn't impossible by any means, either. It could be quite }impossible to get him to *agree* with you, though, of course." "He could be impossible to communicate with, if he so chose. Between his ability to reinterpret at whim, and his insistence that whatever he read into your statements was the only valid meaning, conversation could quickly degenerate into a volley of 'LIAR', returned with 'ASSHOLE'. Communication requires a message, a transmitter, and a compatibly tuned receiver." } }: >I'm not making a value judgement on which communication style is better. }: >But what *really pisses me off* is seeing people applauding a particular }: >behavior from one source and belittling it if it comes from another, based }: >(apparently) on the reputation of the source and not much else. } }"I don't know if you meant me here, Ilene, but I can't say as I }'applauded' his more difficult tactics; I understood them, though, and }learned to deal with them. Yes, that meant playing the game his way, but, }to me, that was the challenge of it; beating him at his own game. Or }at least beating him to a draw, which was much more likely, and just }as satisfying." "I respectfully suggest that he never unloaded the full arsenal on you. I also respectfully suggest that insisting the game be played 'his way' was not within his rights, or conducive to discussion between equals." UT -- Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. --Thomas Paine Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.iadfw.net!170-131-57 ~From: elcabalero@aol.com (The Gentleman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sun, 08 Sep 96 05:50:40 GMT Organization: White Knight Consulting ~Lines: 42 Message-ID: <50tmrg$i6g_015@ipt.aol.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <50hcd2$i3v@news1.infinet.com> <50pisi$pok@library.airnews.net> <50squ8$qg1@nadine.teleport.com> <50tbl5$mnc@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 170-131-57.ipt.aol.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 X-US-Congress: FUCK OFF! ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159989 In article <50tbl5$mnc@news1.infinet.com>, jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) wrote: }Randolph Fritz (randolph@teleport.com) wrote: }: >In article <50hcd2$i3v@news1.infinet.com>, }: > jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) wrote: }: >} }: >}It wasn't until he attacked something that the other person }: >}considered important that they cared about his language. } }: In article <50pisi$pok@library.airnews.net>, }: The Gentleman wrote: }: > }: > "Not quite true. My first tangle with StM, well before the PD }: >mess, was over his language towards kitten. } } Er, you considered the use of such language toward kitten }"important" then. I believe that you're taking my statement out of context }as well. . . I was speaking of generalities, not of specifics. "Huh? You stated that people didn't care until he attacked something important to them, with the context implying that they didn't care about his attitude until it was directed at them. I responded that I had, in fact, cared, and had made that clear. That, in fact, it was the first thing I tangled with him about. You made a general statement, and I showed that in at least one case, that generality was inaccurate." "If I misread the context, I apologize. But, if your statement doesn't contradict this case, then what case would it apply to? Unless it was intended to apply only to those posters that did not, in fact, publicly object to his manner before they got into an argument with him? What about those that did so privately? In email to him? In email to the victim? I am afraid you can't claim enough information to be sure that statement applies to *anyone*." UT -- Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. --Thomas Paine Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.onramp.net!usenet ~From: mgiles@onramp.net ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Speaker, goodbye.... ~Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 22:02:31 GMT Organization: OnRamp Technologies; ISP; Dallas/Ft Worth/Houston, TX USA ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <50skep$el5@news.onramp.net> ~References: <50odsm$rbn@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lbj30.onramp.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159947 faharve1@prairienet.org (Faith A. Harvey) wrote: >"Good bye, old friend................." A long absent Pup obtains a drink and approaches the line. I never met Speaker in person, but have often wished to. To friends we've never met, and the influence they've had on our lives. **** CRASH **** mgiles@onramp.net http://rampages.onramp.net/~mgiles/ Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!brighton.openmarket.com!decwrl!news.hooked.net!chum-31 ~From: dberry@hooked.net (Douglas E. Berry) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Tentative RETURN, and Speaker.... ~Date: Sun, 08 Sep 96 01:23:15 GMT Organization: Imperial Scout Service ~Lines: 43 Message-ID: <50t763$dbk_001@ppp.hooked.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chum-31.ppp.hooked.net X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159964 A side window to The Place opens, and several heads begin poking through it. One by one, those who remember see Kayleigh the Guardian Weirdo, the Teddybear Procession, and at long last Kiri settle themselves around Kiri's old table. The occasionally Invisible Girl seems rather more insubstantial than she has been in recent visits, solidifying only to step to the bar, and then to the Line. She downs her double Aftershock, then sips her Diet Coke meditatively. Dorie settles onto her shoulder as the other firelizards dash off to visit with Credo and her family, and Kiri begins. "Such news to have to come home to.... As many others here have said, I was not close to the man, nor did I have much desire to be. In later months of my tenure here, I rapidly began killing any thread his name appeared in - even those that, up to then, I had held some interest in following - simply because I had long since exhausted my tolerance for his frequently petulant rants. When at last I found myself unwilling to even open new threads for fear of StM's possible appearance therein, I took my leave of the Place. "And yet, I find my RL self reading what you have had to say about the man, and wondering what I may have missed. DJ and Tom, your discussion of him moved me so greatly that my husband, the Sniper, turned an appalled gaze to me and said, 'You certainly can't be driven to tears of sorrow over *him*....' And yet I was. "Speaker was, of course, capable of showing a lighter side here, and occasionally did. I remember discussing the various condiment arrangements that could be made for french fries...." Kiri drains her Diet Coke, wondering for a moment if perhaps there shouldn't have been rum in it, and then spies the increasing pyramid of glasses upon the hearth. "You will forgive me if I don't join you in a tradition that has developed in my absence...." With that, Kiri nests her glasses one within the other, and hurls them at the fireplace with a multi-faceted fury - anger that the man had ever been capable of causing such distress; anger that she could allow herself to feel sorrow for his passing; anger that she could ever consider *not* feeling sorrow for another sentient; and anger that she would now never know, in even the slightest amount, all of the sides of the being known to many as Speaker, and to still others as Carl. - = < { [ | C R A S H | ] } > = - Kirsten M. Berry - killashandra@np1.com (posting to Usenet through the courtesy of her husband) Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.iadfw.net!170-131-57 ~From: elcabalero@aol.com (The Gentleman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: Sun, 08 Sep 96 05:48:28 GMT Organization: White Knight Consulting ~Lines: 24 Message-ID: <50tmnc$i6g_003@ipt.aol.com> ~References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <50hn8g$ktn@news1.infinet.com> <50k3hs$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50s2s2$7ve@apollo.csd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 170-131-57.ipt.aol.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 X-US-Congress: FUCK OFF! ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159988 In article <50s2s2$7ve@apollo.csd.net>, mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) wrote: } }I have a dated rather extensive statement of Carl's philosophical }approach on this issue. Essentially, he lays out some }ground-rules for posting intelligently. The document is on another }machine; send me mail requesting the file POST.DOC and I'll fetch it for }you :-) } "I've said this elsewhere, and I'll say it again: What gave Carl the right to insist that everyone conform to his standard of 'intelligent' posting? The only answer I ever got from him was 'because I say so, shit-for-brains.' (Paraphrased)" "Dammit, the bastard's dead, and he still has me looking over my shoulder. I am NOT amused by the implications, thank you." UT -- Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. --Thomas Paine Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.csd.net!ares.csd.net!mark ~From: mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick ~Date: 8 Sep 1996 11:22:00 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company ~Lines: 40 Message-ID: <50ua8o$egl@apollo.csd.net> ~References: <322608B3.33A2@pacbell.net> <50j3fq$b9m@apollo.csd.net> <50jshh$qm9@bermuda.io.com> <50ocu8$1ot@babylon5.babcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ares.csd.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159992 alaric@babylon5.babcom.com (The Renaissance Man) writes: >Quoth leslie@io.com (Leslie): >] On 4 Sep 1996 05:18:50 GMT in alt.callahans, >] Mark Tarka said: >] : >] : OBTW...Dave...tell your wife I won't be able to make that lunch date >] : this Friday. >] >] Go away. Trollers aren't welcome in alt.callahans. Or not. We do >] enjoy a good laugh now and then, come to think of it, and your pitifully >] lame attempt at a flame was pretty hilarious. >] >] In my opinion, of course. >"I didn't find it clever enough to be funny," Alaric comments sadly. Amused by Aleric's response, Mark suggests, "Pitiful...clever...funny? It was crafted to be _effective_, and wasn't intended for you." >"It was just rather pathetic. The poor sick little twerp probably can't > get any other kind of attention. It really makes you wonder what we're > coming to. I've no doubt the two lawsuits he cited were probably > something on the level of suing Heinz because he spilled ketchup on his > pants. With a grin, he continues, "Spell it 'catch-up' and you'll have a clue." >"Well, he's now blocked from all my tcp services.... nntp, smtp, > everything. I'm dumping him in with the spammers. He's fit company for > them." "Ah, my poor Alaric...that is one of the pitfalls of kill-files: they leave the creator blind to the reality around him. But I hope that others will find some educational value here." Mark Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.csd.net!ares.csd.net!mark ~From: mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: I remember Carl Lydick...Here's something he liked.... ~Date: 8 Sep 1996 11:41:39 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company ~Lines: 26 Message-ID: <50ubdj$eq4@apollo.csd.net> ~References: <506656$6p4@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <32271C04.C04@discover-net.net> <507c6m$39c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <5099kc$anq@pentagon.io.com> <50b3dc$i2s@apollo.csd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ares.csd.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159993 mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) writes: >leslie@io.com (Leslie) writes: >>On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:36:19 GMT in alt.callahans, >>Wayne Johnson said: >[Snip...] >>: No wonder Carl liked it so much. Of course, he was certifiable. >>"He reminded me of Wonko the Sane, actually." >Stumbling over to the bar, Mark says "Mike, here's a c-note for Leslie's >war-chest. Gotta run...fires to put out, y' know." And with a smile.... ...he adds, "I tried to be as neat as possible...if that doesn't cover the damages, let me know. Oh, by the way, there's an old photograph of Carl that needs a little retouching. If I can find the damn thing, I'll send it along. Maybe you've got some place to display it." "It's a new day, Mike," and Mark turns away towards the door. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!academ!bcm.tmc.edu!news.tamu.edu!news.utdallas.edu!newnews.metronet.com!feenix.metronet.com!fohnix.metronet.com!not-for-mail ~From: kcomer@fohnix.metronet.com (Ken Comer) ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 5 Sep 1996 17:06:08 -0500 Organization: Exon Vaseline Suppliers, LLC ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <50nisg$7ba@fohnix.metronet.com> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com> <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> <5066lq$8ps@babylon5.babcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.149.156.2 ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:155113 sci.skeptic:207340 alt.callahans:160028 In article <5066lq$8ps@babylon5.babcom.com>, The Renaissance Man wrote: >Quoth Stafford@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford): >] claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) wrote: >] Kill Files, or at least less than enough proficiency to implement >] one themselves. > >"Or, a thousand times more likely, simply chose not to. It's safe and > easy to insult people on the Net, but when you try to do so in this > manner, you only prove yourself the fool." I asked dpm this very question ("Why not just killfile him?") via e-mail yesterday, and his reply (paraphrase mine) was "he drove people off, and I needed to see what he wrote." the spiegel -- *=*=*=*=*=*=*+*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*+*=*=*=*=*=*=* Ken Comer | http://www.metronet.com/~kcomer | aka spiegel Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn ~From: Zaphkiel ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 7 Sep 1996 21:05:16 -0700 Organization: zaphkiel@acun.com ~Lines: 33 Message-ID: <50tgls$kui@lex.zippo.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50lbi5$c5g@lex.zippo.com> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50svml$dld@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp013.acun.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160012 In article <50svml$dld@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, kittent@staff.uiuc.edu says... > >zaphkiel: >> That is exactly why I never communicated with him. I tried to meet him >>half-way, and found that we were still seperated by the other half. > >[ilene's comment snipped] > >> Your choice, of course. I would like to point out that among this crowd, >>chasing other people out gains you respect, and being chased out gains you >>a reputation as a loser. This is wrong, of course, but it IS the legacy >>of speaker. You know that as well as I do. Don't get mad, get even. > >> --Zaphkiel >> Cool as fuck > > >kitten snorts..."you didn't communicate with him because you could >never reach his level (and whether this is a good thing or a bac thing >remains to be seen) Remains to be seen? And how is that going to happen, exactly? > >your flat out statement 'chasing other people out gains you respect, >and being chased out gains you a reputation as a loser' is a lie. it >is not even a strawman, it is a lie." It is a statement, so it can't be a strawman. As for the truthfulness of it, perhaps if I saw less people being chased out, and less respect given to the person who chased them out, I wouldn't believe it. --Zaphkiel Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn ~From: Zaphkiel ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 7 Sep 1996 22:30:10 -0700 Organization: zaphkiel@acun.com ~Lines: 98 Message-ID: <50tll2$mce@lex.zippo.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50lbi5$c5g@lex.zippo.com> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50sfle$fet@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp013.acun.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160013 In article <50sfle$fet@news1.infinet.com>, jpalmer@infinet.com says... > >Zaphkiel wrote: > >: The point that Leslie made was that opinions that you couldn't back up >: with proof were worthless. She agreed with speaker that the burden of proof >: was always on everyone *else* to prove their opinion had factual basis. >: Then John, who realized that this is bullshit, tried to change the >: line of attack (by redefining what she 'really' meant) to 'an opinion that >: is based on *false* proof is worthless'. > > No, Zaph, what I did was point out that Leslie, as stated, was >incorrect. . but that I think she wanted to say something closer to >correct. That "something I think she wanted to say" was "opinions that run >counter to fact are worthless." Yeah, that's what I said. The original point was incorrect (bullshit) and you changed it to something different. > > I *DID NOT* redefine what she meant; I presented an alternative. She >can say "you're right, John, I was wrong, and this *IS* what I really >meant" or she can say "No, I meant what I said" (and try to defend that >position). You presented an alternative to what she said. You claimed that alternative was what Leslie 'really' meant to say. I fail to understand how that is not a redefinition. Perhaps instead of claiming loudly that you did not redefine what she meant, you should not redefine what she meant. Personally, I don't have a problem with redefining what she said. It needed it. > >: The problem here, once again, is >: that he assumes that the burden of proof falls on everyone *else*. His >: opinion (that the sky is blue) is taken as a given. The opinion that the >: sky is pink is false until proven true. > > The 'sky' is accepted to be 'blue'. Any change to that statement >requires that one of the quoted words be redefined so that it no longer >refers to what people accept it as referring to. Perhaps if the word 'accepted' had been in the original statement, this would be pertinent. > >: The people who bought into this bullshit are the people who stayed in >: Callahan's and became speaker's friends. The people who argued against this >: bullshit were insulted, abused, and ridiculed until they either left a.c. >: completely, or quit trying to argue. Or became one of the speaker-bashers. > > You forget those who didn't buy into the bullshit, became >semi-friends of speaker, and didn't bash or ridicule others. People who don't exist are easy to forget. Mea culpa. Would you like me to go back and dig up posts from you're last flame war with speaker? Or would you rather I dig up posts of you ridiculing others? Or I could get some posts where you expound on exactly what speaker can, and cannot be taken to task for? I'm not going to. I'm too lazy. But you and I know those posts exist. I've never faulted your motives, John. You are consistently opposed to what you see as unfairness, no matter who does it. I don't always agree. There are a lot of times when everyone is being unfair, to some extent, and then it's just a matter of picking who is being the most unfair. And THAT is something that reasonable people can disagree about. Everyone has different values of what types of unfairness are the most important. > >: So, yes, it's not surprising that speaker has a lot of friends here. He did >: everything he could possibly do to chase away everyone who was willing to >: disagree with him directly. > > Perhaps if you modified your statement to be less all encompassing, >you'd be somewhat closer to the truth. Please, feel free to search the >archives and see some of the old wars Speaker and I were in. If I didn't overgeneralize, I wouldn't be me. I admit I am guilty of this quite often. Most of the things I have learned on usenet have been the result of me making a generalization that other people objected to. The objections serve to chip away things until you arrive at the truth. What would you say is easier? Starting with a block of stone and chipping away pieces until you make a statue, or taking chips of stone and sticking them together until you make a statue? A programmer does it the second way, because that's the only way to write a program. I do it the first way because when it comes to real life, it's a more efficient method. For me. > > I think the problem most people have with Speaker is that they >figured that unless they got him to capitulate, they'd lost. Why they >couldn't define "winning" as "accepting everything he said, and reaching a >decision that he was wrong in any way that mattered to them, and thus >feeling free to ignore him as currently meaningless", I don't know. . >.because that's what I eventually did. For me, it's because watching other people be intentionally hurt while I'm winning is, at best, a pyhrric victory. --Zaphkiel Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!nntp.crl.com!news.PBI.net!usenet ~From: The Polymath ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 11:40:42 -0700 Organization: Polymath Enterprises ~Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3233132A.62B@pacbell.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <50hcd2$i3v@news1.infinet.com> <50pisi$pok@library.airnews.net> <50squ8$qg1@nadine.teleport.com> <50tbl5$mnc@news1.infinet.com> <50tmrg$i6g_015@ipt.aol.com> ~Reply-To: polymath@pacbell.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-206-171-250-65.vntrcs.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160025 The Gentleman wrote: >In article <50tbl5$mnc@news1.infinet.com>, jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) wrote: >}Randolph Fritz (randolph@teleport.com) wrote: >}:>In article <50hcd2$i3v@news1.infinet.com>, jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) wrote: [ Discussion of who said what to whom and what it really meant and how they should have said it, etc., etc., etc. ad nauseum deleted. ] StM may be gone, but his spirit lives on. All we need is someone to throw the occasional "shit for brains" into the mix and you'd hardly know he wasn't here. For better or worse, he's definitely left his stamp on alt.callahans. I'm one of the old farts who was here when a.c was founded and participated in discussions of just what the group was, what it should be like and how to handle people who stepped out of our consensual reality. Flame wars were unheard of back then and those who attempted to start them were pointedly ignored (the equivalent of Fast Eddie's blackjack). Times have certainly changed the culture of the newsgroup. It's still one of the "kinder, gentler" ones on the net, but flames are all too common now and no one thinks much about them. StM and our tolerance of him probably contributed somewhat to that change in ambience. Now he's gone and we're stuck with it. Oh well. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP) polymath@pacbell.net <<<===PLEASE NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS http://www.babcom.com/polymath <<<===AND NEW HOME PAGE URL (818) 882-6309 Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 8 Sep 1996 14:45:33 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <50um6d$etu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50lbi5$c5g@lex.zippo.com> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50tmm9$i6g_001@ipt.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160004 UT: > "I am not defending Carl. I'm defending the people that had the >sufficiently odd taste to *like* Carl. And that peculiarity does not give you >permission to attack them for all the things that Carl did." kitten chokes on her morning pepsi and bounces over to hug the untamed tiger.... (i NEVER needed protection against speaker...and i'd give almost anything to have him call me a blonde bimbo again... who do you think made me question that part of my personality in the first place? even when he was WRONG about my beliefs, he did me a service by questioning the way i express myself.) -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.csd.net!ares.csd.net!mark ~From: mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Carl Lydick -- group photo ~Date: 8 Sep 1996 14:28:00 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company ~Lines: 40 Message-ID: <50ul5g$fjc@apollo.csd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ares.csd.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160003 -|- __ A -- \ \ o---===O(V)O===---o \ ox ox ^^^^ ^^^^ ox \ \ === U \ o || || --------- -+- <__|___|__> -|- -+- -+- | | + + o--=O(v)O=--o -+- | | |--o0o-- --o0o-- " " =============================_______ \\ | /_____\ /_____\ | // = | --+-- |[]|_ CL CL _|[]| o| + x-=OO \ / ##### == = \ \ | / / _\\###//_ _ == _=_ \ \ | / / == \ BH|BH / =[_]= \/ \|/ \ \ | / / \/ \ | / \|/ v^vvvvv^vvvv^vvv^vV^vV^VV^V^V^V^VV^Vv^v^vv^vvv^vvvvv^vvv^vvv^vmt 1/13/93 INFO-VAX: We still make house-calls. Here's the photo, Mike; I hope it'll fit in the frame. The story that goes with it could be told by anyone who was around comp.os.vms/Info-VAX about the time the Egyptian, Sabry, showed up. He had a VAX/VMS system, few docs, poor language skills, and wanted the group to respond to his crudely written posts by telling him how to run his system. They'll tell you Carl flamed the poor guy unmercifully. What I have to add is, Carl had the heat turned up so high, that there was no trouble getting a committee together for some one-on-one off-line interaction with Sabry, and sending paper manuals so he'd have documentation to work with. Anyway...I gotta get back to work. Mark Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!netaxs.com!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-7.sprintlink.net!news.usit.net!news ~From: jmiles@usit.net (Janet D. Miles) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 16:42:50 GMT Organization: yeah right ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3232f367.4401140@news.usit.net> ~References: <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bf <50f3h6$661@news.cais.com> <50fb6a$4c@news.acns.nwu.edu> ~Reply-To: jmiles@usit.net NNTP-Posting-Host: bway-slip73.dynamic.usit.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/16.227 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160016 On 2 Sep 1996 19:05:46 GMT, in alt.callahans jed@juand.earth.nwu.edu (John DeLaughter) wrote: >If you don't mind a butt-inski, may I suggest you go to: > >http://www.cybercomm.net/~drz/tom.lehrer/ Now *there* is a fun site. Thanks for suggesting it -- I will say, honestly, that I even enjoyed reading the term paper. At your convenience, and if you don't mind, I'd like to buy you a drink -- perhaps an Irish Coffee, thus meeting both needs of a college student in one go? :-) == Posted by Janet Miles Copy cc:d to poster Please copy me if you follow up to this post; my newsfeed misses about 1 post in 3. Thanks. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!netaxs.com!nntp.teleport.com!usenet ~From: randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) ~Newsgroups: misc.health.diabetes,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Question about Speaker Followup-To: misc.health.diabetes ~Date: 8 Sep 1996 20:28:38 GMT Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 ~Lines: 5 Message-ID: <50va9m$qkm@nadine.teleport.com> ~References: <322AFAD5.344C@den.mmc.com> <50n3ko$mie@fnnews.fnal.gov> <6SEP199615474398@erich.triumf.ca> <50u8n7$89t@metro.atlanta.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: linda.teleport.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net misc.health.diabetes:43898 alt.callahans:160033 Folks, this isn't an alt.callahans discussion anymore; I've set the followup to misc.health.diabetes. -- Randolph Fritz randolph@teleport.com Path: news2.digex.net!access1!dpm From: dpm@access1.digex.net (David P. Murphy) Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Followup-To: alt.callahans Date: 8 Sep 1996 17:51:37 -0400 Organization: Phase of the Moon Software Inc. Alexandria, VA Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com> <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> <5066lq$8ps@babylon5.babcom.com> <50nisg$7ba@fohnix.metronet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:155115 sci.skeptic:207376 alt.callahans:160037 kcomer@fohnix.metronet.com (Ken Comer) writes: >The Renaissance Man wrote: >>Quoth Stafford@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford): >>] Kill Files, or at least less than enough proficiency to implement >>] one themselves. >> >>"Or, a thousand times more likely, simply chose not to. It's safe and >> easy to insult people on the Net, but when you try to do so in this >> manner, you only prove yourself the fool." >I asked dpm this very question ("Why not just killfile him?") via e-mail >yesterday, and his reply (paraphrase mine) was "he drove people off, and >I needed to see what he wrote." PhaseOfTheMoon pulls out the transcripts. >StM (aka Carl Lydick) was in my killfile for over a year-- >why wasn't he in yours? Why not encourage that response? because i don't killfile anybody. my decision to send the letter was made due to his treatment of comp.os.vms newcomers . . . i was displeased at the efforts of one man to scare away people from a useful arena. "it was carl's treatment of *others*, not of myself, to which i objected. my killfiling him would not shield anyone, and would prevent me from receiving the valuable comments he posted." (followups routed to callahans) ok dpm -- David P. Murphy mailto:murphy@connor.datametrics.com (work) systems programmer mailto:dpm@access.digex.net (personal) http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm COGITO ERGO DISCLAIMUM ftp://ftp.access.digex.net/pub/access/dpm Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mathworks.com!mvb.saic.com!info-vax From: Mark Tarka Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick Message-ID: <009A812C.E8387800.2@earth.oscs.montana.edu> Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 16:40:28 MDT Organization: Info-Vax<==>Comp.Os.Vms Gateway X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List Lines: 51 Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:155117 In article , dpm@access1.digex.net (David P. Murphy) writes: [NB Quote symbol is "|" for the current message.] |kcomer@fohnix.metronet.com (Ken Comer) writes: | |>The Renaissance Man wrote: |>>Quoth Stafford@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford): |>>] Kill Files, or at least less than enough proficiency to implement |>>] one themselves. [Stafford wrote the preceeding two lines.] |>>"Or, a thousand times more likely, simply chose not to. It's safe and |>> easy to insult people on the Net, but when you try to do so in this |>> manner, you only prove yourself the fool." [Renaissance Man wrote the preceeding three lines.] |>I asked dpm this very question ("Why not just killfile him?") via e-mail |>yesterday, and his reply (paraphrase mine) was "he drove people off, and |>I needed to see what he wrote." [Comer wrote the preceeding three lines.] |PhaseOfTheMoon pulls out the transcripts. Wow! They're incredibly redundant! Comer's post was sufficient. You're still trying to justify your foolish act. | >StM (aka Carl Lydick) was in my killfile for over a year-- | >why wasn't he in yours? Why not encourage that response? | | because i don't killfile anybody. my decision to send the letter | was made due to his treatment of comp.os.vms newcomers . . . | i was displeased at the efforts of one man to scare away people | from a useful arena. | |"it was carl's treatment of *others*, not of myself, to which i |objected. my killfiling him would not shield anyone, and would |prevent me from receiving the valuable comments he posted." Murphy, you promised this crowd there'd be no more leakage from alt.callahans about this crusade of yours. I don't like cleaning up other peoples puke. You show up here again and I'll say in this venue what I said at alt.callahans, and include such questions as WHO are these _others_ you refer to and WHY didn't you just tell them to KILLFILE anything they didn't like in the same way you suggested to me that I KILLFILE you, instead of sending those 35 letters (which any reasonable mind has to dismiss as the ramblings of a whiner) to Carl's coworkers and supervisors. Do your thing at alt.callahans...I'm no longer there. Mark ichjsmt@earth.oscs.montana.edu msu-bozeman USA Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!netaxs.com!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 9 Sep 1996 03:07:53 GMT Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 Lines: 36 Message-ID: <5101m9$7ng@nadine.teleport.com> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> <50qf46$6bk@news.orst.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kelly.teleport.com Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160059 In article <50qf46$6bk@news.orst.edu>, Unbeliever wrote: > >"Speaker to Minerals was an intentional giver of pain." > [...] > >"He did it *HERE*." > "I thought, with my final toast, I was mostly done with this, but I've thought this over, and decided that you are right. "In Speaker's view he was a defender of the groups he participated in; barkeep and bouncer all at once. Now a bouncer, of necessity, is going to inflict some pain. But even so--Speaker did way more than was than needed. And sometimes he sought out reasons to attack people, and did so, regardless of how lame the reasons; his reasons for attack included personal religious and political views--things that by any reasonable standard of neutral discourse should be inviolable. Sometimes he attacked people out of misunderstanding--for views they just didn't hold at all. At his worst, he would resort to defamation and argument through popular prejudice ('ad populum'). "I believe--and I think Speaker's supporters would agree with me--that he was a teacher, with his eyes focused on the higher truths of reason--so damn!--why did he serve it so poorly sometimes? Reason is a sharp blade; one needs must be careful with it. "And, you know, he apparently wasn't caring for himself before he died--that's the truth in the glucose figures from the autopsy. Hell of a way to go. I'm sure he had reasons which, if asked, he would defend at great length--yet I wonder if, in his quick harsh judgements, he judged himself, and found himself wanting." R. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!news.PBI.net!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn From: Zaphkiel Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 8 Sep 1996 18:54:33 -0700 Organization: zaphkiel@acun.com Lines: 42 Message-ID: <50vtcp$rnn@lex.zippo.com> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50lbi5$c5g@lex.zippo.com> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50tmm9$i6g_001@ipt.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp008.acun.com Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160088 In article <50tmm9$i6g_001@ipt.aol.com>, elcabalero@aol.com says... > >In article <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com>, Zaphkiel wrote: >} >} Your choice, of course. I would like to point out that among this crowd, >}chasing other people out gains you respect, and being chased out gains you >}a reputation as a loser. This is wrong, of course, but it IS the legacy >}of speaker. You know that as well as I do. Don't get mad, get even. >} > "As someone who got chased out, I have to say that I don't agree with >that. Many people wrote email and posted messages saying that they didn't >agree with the way speaker was acting towards me, and *nobody* has made me >feel less than welcome to be back. Including many of his closest friends, >more than a few of which have explicitly welcomed me. I'd like to welcome you, as well. The way I described things is the way things shouldn't be, and the way you described things is the way things should be. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Call it a caricature, then. I took a truth and blew it up in order to make it clear to everyone just how *ugly* it is. > > "Yes, I felt like a loser, and looked like a loser. Want to guess why? I >friggin' lost, that's why. Me and Carl traded insults at 10 paces, and I >couldn't take it. I ran like a rabbit, and deliberately avoided threads that >crossed between his groups and mine. He beat me. I accepted it, realized I >had met my better in that department, and decided that I didn't *want* to be >better at it than he was. I understand, I think. In my case, I never doubted for a second that I could beat him in an all-out flame war. He was strong at abuse, but not very original. I decided that I didn't *want* to do that *here*. > > "I am not defending Carl. I'm defending the people that had the >sufficiently odd taste to *like* Carl. And that peculiarity does not give you >permission to attack them for all the things that Carl did." I didn't ask for permission. I'm not attacking them for things that Carl did. I'm shaming them for things that they *didn't* do. --Zaphkiel Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!news.PBI.net!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn From: Zaphkiel Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 8 Sep 1996 20:11:47 -0700 Organization: zaphkiel@acun.com Lines: 278 Message-ID: <5101tj$3l@lex.zippo.com> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50stvh$rj8@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp008.acun.com Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160089 In article <50stvh$rj8@pentagon.io.com>, leslie@io.com says... > >On 7 Sep 1996 00:26:21 -0700 in alt.callahans, > said: >: In article , >: imorgan@umr.edu says... >: >>Zaphkiel wrote: >: >>: In article <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com>, jpalmer@infinet.com says... >: >>: > I think Leslie 'really' meant that "opinions that ignore facts are >: >>: >worthless". e.g., I can have the opinion that the sky is 'really' pink, >: >>: >but that's worthless as an opinion. . . it ignores an observable fact. > >"Actually, I think 'useful' is a better word here than 'worthless.' >Worthless does imply a value judgement; useful simply refers to the >utility of the opinion. But otherwise yes, opinions that ignore >observable facts don't deserve to be taken seriously." I'm assuming you meant to replace worthless with useless, and not useful? The way it's written is a total reversal, and I don't think that's what you meant. So, assuming that, I totally agree. Opinions based on total knowledge of the facts is very useful. I think opinions that ignore facts could still be useful, if you consider gaining something by lying or decieving useful. I'm not suggesting that that is a good thing, in any way, I'm just saying it's possible. > >(Zaph:) >: >>: I sat on the beach and watched the sun go down over the Gulf >: >>: of Mexico tonight. There were several large clouds in the sky. For >: >>: about 20 minutes the sky was pink. >: >>: Does the fact that I watched and enjoyed a beautiful sunset make me >: >>: a liar, or a moron? > > >(Sandy:) >: >>Z, nobody used those loaded words until you did. John slipped in his >: >>example by using a color that the sky actually is on occasion. How about >: >>replacing "pink" with, oh, "chartreuse with black stripes and silver polka- >: >>dots"? Does that make the concept any more clear to you, or are you once >: >>again ignoring clarity in favor of sounding cool? >: >: Nobody used them? You think I just plucked them out of thin air? The >: problem is that these words were used all the fucking time, in exactly the >: same way. > >"Nobody in this current discussion used those words. Nobody in this >current discussion would call anyone a moron for saying 'the sky was >pink at sunset.'" Then things have changed for the better. I hope they remain that way. > >: The point that Leslie made was that opinions that you couldn't back up >: with proof were worthless. She agreed with speaker that the burden of proof >: was always on everyone *else* to prove their opinion had factual basis. > >"Not true. The other person has to prove a factual basis if they >want to be taken *seriously*, however, especially if the other side >provides evidence to counter the opinion. However, if someone were >to simply say 'that's bullshit' (with no further explanation) about an >opinion, then it would be completely fair to first insist that they give >evidence to back up the assertion that the opinion is bullshit. *Both* >sides ought to back up what they say." It's totally fair to ask someone to back up what they say. It is NOT fair to assume that because they didn't, that what they said is wrong. > >: Then John, who realized that this is bullshit, tried to change the >: line of attack (by redefining what she 'really' meant) to 'an opinion that >: is based on *false* proof is worthless'. The problem here, once again, is >: that he assumes that the burden of proof falls on everyone *else*. His >: opinion (that the sky is blue) is taken as a given. The opinion that the >: sky is pink is false until proven true. > >"I don't think so--I don't think either I or John were talking at all >about simply insisting that someone prove something without first >demonstrating *why* they feel such proof is necessary to begin with. That depends. Do you mean *necessary* to convince you, or *necessary* to avoid being abused? There is a big difference between saying "That's not what I have seen, could you provide evidence" and saying "That's not what I have seen, prove it or else". >: This is the central hypocrisy of speaker. His opinion, according to him, >: was fact until proven false (and long after that, in most cases). > >"He always did list his reasons and his evidence for his opinions, though. >He supported his arguments. It seemed to me that problems came in when >the subject under discussion was in fact a matter that did admit of >various interpretations (depending on your point of view, and your own >personal values). Of course he'd insist his interpretation was right; in >his eyes, it was right, because he was measuring by his own personal >standards. Exactly right. And his personal standards did not include any various interpretations for ANYTHING. "There can be only ONE" Sadly, the similarity to Highlander do not end there. >: And everyone else's opinion was suspect until they were able to provide >: proof that their opinion was correct.(or that they agreed with him) > >"I think 'everyone' and 'correct' are overstatements. It had seemed >to me that if you could at least show why what you thought was valid >*for you*, if you could at least *match* his evidence for his side >with evidence of your own, you could beat him to a draw. At least, >I did that, on at least a few occasions. But I didn't need to 'prove >him wrong,' I settled for proving him 'not necessarily right.'" If it was a draw, you didn't beat him. And, in my opinion, settling for proving him 'not necessarily right' when he was (in your opinion, not mine here) wrong, sounds pretty lame. >: The people who bought into this bullshit are the people who stayed in >: Callahan's and became speaker's friends. The people who argued against this >: bullshit were insulted, abused, and ridiculed until they either left a.c. >: completely, or quit trying to argue. Or became one of the speaker-bashers. > >"I don't think it's inaccurate to say that people who stuck around had at >least found a way to tolerate him, or cope with him, or ignore him. It's >true that people did quit trying to argue him into changing, because it >was so obvious that he had no intention of changing, and arguing with him >only added more flames to the atmosphere; and since the whole point of >arguing with him was to achieve a *reduction* of flames, it did seem >counter-productive. And people could be his friend without agreeing >that everything he did was right, too." They just had to keep quiet about it. Not rock the boat. Don't make Daddy MAD, cause then he'll beat us. Just do what he says. That's truely pathetic. Leaves a bad "Stockholm syndrome" taste in my mouth. >: If you use it (as speaker did >: countless times) and go on from there to insinuate that the person who >: didn't provide proof MUST be either a liar or a moron, then you are >: being just as intellectually dishonest as he was. > >"Can you give an example of a time when he did this? I'm surprised at >you, slightly, since we are having a discussion about 'backing things >up,' and here you are making an unsupported assertion." I'm not going to back it up. You can prove it wrong, or you can try to say that because I didn't back it up, that means I'm wrong. Either do the work, or be intellectually lazy, you're choice. You can't shift the burden to me. My opinions are innocent until PROVEN guilty. You don't have to believe them. You do have to accept that I have a right to have them, unless you can prove them wrong. > >: All opinions are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Anyone who tries to put >: their opinion above this rule will be my enemy for life. And I AM an >: asshole. > >"I agree. With the first sentence above, that is...But, I would add the >proviso that: 'but, if you don't back up what you say, you should be >prepared for people to not take your bare word for something.' This >sounds eminently fair, to me. It is fair, as long as you don't demand proof, like you just did in the above paragraph, and speaker did countless times. > >: >I contend that Speaker *often* ignored clarity in favor of sounding cool. >: >The "positive" way of saying this is that Speaker would feel free to dismiss >: >a statement as incorrect without bothering to say *what* was incorrect >: >about it; he expected people to be clear in their statements. If you >: >wanted to communicate with him, you had to be ready to go through several >: >iterations before something was stated to his satisfaction. >: >: That is exactly why I never communicated with him. I tried to meet him >: half-way, and found that we were still seperated by the other half. > >"I would agree that he could at times be quite difficult to communicate >with. But it wasn't impossible by any means, either. It could be quite >impossible to get him to *agree* with you, though, of course." No, it wasn't impossible. I could have totally capitulated. Since you are not advocating that, it was impossible. > >: >I'm not making a value judgement on which communication style is better. >: >But what *really pisses me off* is seeing people applauding a particular >: >behavior from one source and belittling it if it comes from another, based >: >(apparently) on the reputation of the source and not much else. > >"I don't know if you meant me here, Ilene, but I can't say as I >'applauded' his more difficult tactics; I understood them, though, and >learned to deal with them. And you have several times implied, or said outright, that anyone who lost an arguement with speaker must have been wrong. Without knowing anything about the argument. So if the shoe fits, wear it. Yes, that meant playing the game his way, but, >to me, that was the challenge of it; beating him at his own game. Or >at least beating him to a draw, which was much more likely, and just >as satisfying." I 'beat' him to a draw, and I don't find the outcome satisfying at all. >: >Ilene >: >sorely tempted to leave the Place for a LONG while >: >: Your choice, of course. I would like to point out that among this crowd, >: chasing other people out gains you respect, > >"If you don't back that up, you'll understand when I say I don't believe >you for one second, I hope? I does NOT describe me, in the SLIGHTEST, >(which I put forth as evidence to disprove your claim.) And, I'm sorry, >but one or two examples won't do; you're claiming the *majority* of the >people here feel this way, and *that* is what I'd like you to back up. You don't have to believe me. Other people probably will, however. >: and being chased out gains you >: a reputation as a loser. > >"Ah. This most surely explains why StM didn't let the Speaker-bashers >chase him out of a.c., I guess--? > >"C'mon, Zaph. This really *does* sound like bullshit to me. I never, >ever, thought of someone as a 'loser,' if they left a.c. because of >StM's flames. I wished that they could've found a way to cope, or >tolerate, or ignore him, but I understood it if they couldn't do that." No, of course not. If you had thought of them as losers, you would have had to think of speaker as the winner. And then you would have had to admit that he had some responsibility, and THAT you just won't do. > >: This is wrong, of course, but it IS the legacy >: of speaker. You know that as well as I do. Don't get mad, get even. > >"You can't get even with Speaker, Zaph. He's dead. Sorry to have to >break it to you. It sounds like you're saying you're going to take your >past anger at him out on the people currently here. I ask you, is that >fair? Was Ilene angry with speaker, or with the people currently here? She said shw was thinking of leaving now, so I assumed it was the latter. > >"Of course it's wrong--but I think you're wrong to characterize a.c. >the way you've done. What you just said was very insulting, you do >realize that, right? You didn't use any 'bad words' at all, but still, >you might as well have, because I feel just as insulted as if you had. Yes, it's insulting. If the patrons of a.c. will prove me wrong (not just tell me I'm wrong, prove it by NEVER DOING IT AGAIN) then I will appologize to each and every one of them. > >"And, why did you do it? Because it was your personal reaction to what >you were perceiving. And because you were standing on your right to >express your opinions. This explains StM, as well." The difference being that I admit I'm an asshole sometimes, and he never did. > >"So...are you ever going to start using your real name, Zaph?" > > >Leslie. Inside joke. >Cc: Zaph & Ilene. Oh, ok, ok.. opening the closet, rummaging around "hmmm, where did I put that name?" Oh, here it is. Carl Eichelberger Well, what would YOU have done?? Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!atmnet.net!usenet From: bob@linkline.com (Bob Clevenger) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 21:39:48 -0700 Organization: Not Bloody Likely! Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3233545e.83115812@news.linkline.com> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <50hcd2$i3v@news1.infinet.com> <50pisi$pok@library.airnews.net> <50squ8$qg1@nadine.teleport.com> <50tbl5$mnc@news1.infinet.com> <50tmrg$i6g_015@ipt.aol.com> <3233132A.62B@pacbell.net> Reply-To: bob@linkline.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.67.165.104 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160068 The Polymath wrote: >StM may be gone, but his spirit lives on. All we need is someone >to throw the occasional "shit for brains" into the mix and you'd >hardly know he wasn't here. For better or worse, he's definitely >left his stamp on alt.callahans. I _told_ ya that he was just lurkin' in the rafters!!! Carl created something that was bigger than himself, and we've inherited it --- for better or worse. -=Bob=- in Ontario, Calif. NRA, CRPA, SCA, IOOF, N6MLV I'm a politician's worst nightmare --- A voter with a memory! Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!news.PBI.net!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn From: Zaphkiel Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 8 Sep 1996 22:53:11 -0700 Organization: zaphkiel@acun.com Lines: 35 Message-ID: <510bc7$3ic@lex.zippo.com> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50svml$dld@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50tgls$kui@lex.zippo.com> <51046c$dn6@zap.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp001.acun.com Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160087 In article <51046c$dn6@zap.io.org>, deirdre@zap.io.org says... > > >On 7 Sep 1996 21:05:16 -0700 in alt.callahans, > said: >(kitten:) >: >your flat out statement 'chasing other people out gains you respect, >: >and being chased out gains you a reputation as a loser' is a lie. it >: >is not even a strawman, it is a lie." >: >: It is a statement, so it can't be a strawman. > >"Ouch. Ouch ouch. The phrase 'dragging a strawman into an argument' >means that you *invent* something, and then attack it and 'prove' >something about it Yes, and that 'something' is an argument. I didn't make an argument, I just made a statement. I also didn't 'prove' anything about that statement, other than I don't like it. It just doesn't have all the component parts to be a strawman. > >: As for the truthfulness >: of it, perhaps if I saw less people being chased out, and less respect >: given to the person who chased them out, I wouldn't believe it. > >"Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Does the word 'despite' ring any >bells with you--? So you're saying that I can only believe things that I can prove logically? How typical. --Zaphkiel Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mindspring.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news2.interlog.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail From: deirdre@zap.io.org (Leslie) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 8 Sep 1996 23:50:36 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. Lines: 43 Message-ID: <51046c$dn6@zap.io.org> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50svml$dld@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50tgls$kui@lex.zippo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zap.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160070 On 7 Sep 1996 21:05:16 -0700 in alt.callahans, said: (kitten:) : >your flat out statement 'chasing other people out gains you respect, : >and being chased out gains you a reputation as a loser' is a lie. it : >is not even a strawman, it is a lie." : : It is a statement, so it can't be a strawman. "Ouch. Ouch ouch. The phrase 'dragging a strawman into an argument' means that you *invent* something, and then attack it and 'prove' something about it (generally one invents something one can easily prove false, just as it's much easier to knock over a man made of straw than it is to knock over a real man). You fabricated the idea stated above, which has little if no basis in reality, claimed that the majority of the people here acted this way, and then attacked that as being wrong. It was a strawman. You were not attacking something that *really* occurs in a.c.." : As for the truthfulness : of it, perhaps if I saw less people being chased out, and less respect : given to the person who chased them out, I wouldn't believe it. "Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Does the word 'despite' ring any bells with you--? "And please, don't tell me you really didn't know the definition of 'strawman'--? Jeeze louise." Leslie. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I try very hard to say exactly what I mean. I'd appreciate it if you'd bear that in mind and not try to "interpret" my posts to fit your own preconceived notions if I'm posting in a serious thread. Remember: If you throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the result. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---a minor masterpiece of 'truth in advertising.' -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.interlog.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail From: deirdre@zap.io.org (Leslie) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 9 Sep 1996 00:21:01 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <5105vd$fmv@zap.io.org> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50tmm9$i6g_001@ipt.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zap.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160066 On Sun, 08 Sep 96 05:47:53 GMT in alt.callahans, The Gentleman said: : "Yes, I felt like a loser, and looked like a loser. Want to guess : why? I friggin' lost, that's why. "There is no shame," Leslie says with a sigh. "In 'losing' when the game is rigged to favor the house..." : Me and Carl traded insults at 10 paces, and I : couldn't take it. I ran like a rabbit, and deliberately avoided : threads that crossed between his groups and mine. He beat me. I : accepted it, realized I had met my better in that department, and : decided that I didn't *want* to be better at it than he was. "One of your wiser decisions, Dave. That was the one thing that never ever ceased to boggle my mind--watching people flame StM in posts in a.c. because they were angry at him for flaming people in posts in a.c. Excuse me? I missed something in there somewhere..." : "I am not defending Carl. I'm defending the people that had the : sufficiently odd taste to *like* Carl. And that peculiarity does not : give you permission to attack them for all the things that Carl did." "Zaph does not, actually, need 'permission.' If he's going to go running around voicing an opinion based on nothing much more than a figment of his imagination, he shouldn't be surprised to find that opinion being strongly challenged, though." Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!netaxs.com!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 9 Sep 1996 03:35:51 GMT Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <5103an$8e3@nadine.teleport.com> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50tbl5$mnc@news1.infinet.com> <50tmrg$i6g_015@ipt.aol.com> <3233132A.62B@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: kelly.teleport.com Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160072 In article <3233132A.62B@pacbell.net>, The Polymath wrote: > >I'm one of the old farts who was here when a.c was founded and >participated in discussions of just what the group was, what it should >be like and how to handle people who stepped out of our consensual >reality. Flame wars were unheard of back then and those who attempted >to start them were pointedly ignored (the equivalent of Fast Eddie's >blackjack). Times have certainly changed the culture of the >newsgroup. It's still one of the "kinder, gentler" ones on the net, >but flames are all too common now and no one thinks much about them. > >StM and our tolerance of him probably contributed somewhat to that >change in ambience. Now he's gone and we're stuck with it. Oh well. > "'It is better to be a live jackal than a dead lion [or Kzin--R] for while there is life there is hope.' Ecclesiastes, more or less. A hopeful word in that very grim book. It's too early for despair, Polymath. And I'm too young for it! :) "Change is still possible." R. "So sit me down, buy me a drink, tell me a good story/Sing us an old song which we know to be true./I don't give a damn if I never will be Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news2.interlog.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail From: deirdre@zap.io.org (Leslie) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick Date: 9 Sep 1996 02:22:47 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <510d3n$k81@zap.io.org> References: <322608B3.33A2@pacbell.net> <50j3fq$b9m@apollo.csd.net> <50jshh$qm9@bermuda.io.com> <50qvv8$47b@apollo.csd.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zap.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160086 On 7 Sep 1996 05:07:52 GMT in alt.callahans, Mark Tarka said: : : Troll...trollers...? Baiting...looking for a flame-fest? What _does_ : the word mean? Replying to Mark in email. Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 9 Sep 1996 12:49:39 GMT Organization: InfiNet Lines: 101 Message-ID: <5113p3$m4j@news1.infinet.com> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50lbi5$c5g@lex.zippo.com> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50sfle$fet@news1.infinet.com> <50tll2$mce@lex.zippo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160122 Zaphkiel wrote: : In article <50sfle$fet@news1.infinet.com>, jpalmer@infinet.com says... : > : >Zaphkiel wrote: : > : >: The point that Leslie made was that opinions that you couldn't back up : >: with proof were worthless. She agreed with speaker that the burden of proof : >: was always on everyone *else* to prove their opinion had factual basis. : >: Then John, who realized that this is bullshit, tried to change the : >: line of attack (by redefining what she 'really' meant) to 'an opinion that : >: is based on *false* proof is worthless'. : > : > No, Zaph, what I did was point out that Leslie, as stated, was : >incorrect. . but that I think she wanted to say something closer to : >correct. : Yeah, that's what I said. The original point was incorrect (bullshit) : and you changed it to something different. No, moron. YOU said I tried to change the "line of attack" (when what I was doing had nothing to do with attacking). I also said that I think what she wanted to say (as in, what she would have said if she'd thought through what she'd wanted to say) was this 'something different'. I did NOT change what she said; I let that stand. I am simply pointing out that there is a statement that is close to what she said that better represents what she probably wanted to say. By the way, dipshit: YOU started this fight. YOU accused me of attacking. Don't pretend that your lack of words that, by themselves, are insulting makes your statements any less insulting. : > : > I *DID NOT* redefine what she meant; I presented an alternative. She : >can say "you're right, John, I was wrong, and this *IS* what I really : >meant" or she can say "No, I meant what I said" (and try to defend that : >position). : You presented an alternative to what she said. You claimed that : alternative was what Leslie 'really' meant to say. I fail to understand : how that is not a redefinition. A redefinition, in the way I've heard it used when used by accusatory assholes like yourself, is an attempt to state what was "really" said, not what "would have been said if the speaker had been more careful". : Perhaps instead of claiming loudly that : you did not redefine what she meant, you should not redefine what she meant. Perhaps you should learn that when I say "I think she meant to say X", I'm not saying "she meant to say X". Now, if you can demonstrate that I made a statement more declarative than "I think she meant", I'll be glad to admit I made a mistake. : >: The problem here, once again, is : >: that he assumes that the burden of proof falls on everyone *else*. His : >: opinion (that the sky is blue) is taken as a given. The opinion that the : >: sky is pink is false until proven true. : > : > The 'sky' is accepted to be 'blue'. Any change to that statement : >requires that one of the quoted words be redefined so that it no longer : >refers to what people accept it as referring to. : Perhaps if the word 'accepted' had been in the original statement, this : would be pertinent. No. The statement "the sky is blue" is accepted. If you wish to say "the sky is pink", you are wrong, period, the end, until you can demonstrate an additional piece of information, by implication or by a direct statement. For example, while watching the sunset, you can say "the sky is pink", and imply the additional piece of information "at this time". : >: The people who bought into this bullshit are the people who stayed in : >: Callahan's and became speaker's friends. The people who argued against this : >: bullshit were insulted, abused, and ridiculed until they either left a.c. : >: completely, or quit trying to argue. Or became one of the speaker-bashers. : > : > You forget those who didn't buy into the bullshit, became : >semi-friends of speaker, and didn't bash or ridicule others. : People who don't exist are easy to forget. Mea culpa. Would you like : me to go back and dig up posts from you're last flame war with speaker? : Or would you rather I dig up posts of you ridiculing others? Or I could : get some posts where you expound on exactly what speaker can, and cannot : be taken to task for? Not at all; I'll admit that I didn't state myself precisely enough. "You forgot those who didn't buy into the bullshit, became semi-friends of speaker, and didn't insult, abuse, and ridicule people for opposing Speaker, and who, in fact, tried to back such people who opposed Speaker when possible." You're claiming that I "bought into the bullshit". Go ahead and prove it dipshit. Because I neither became a speaker basher, left callahans, or stopped arguing. Do I insult and ridicule others? I sure do. I try to restrict it to when they're worthy of such insult and ridicule. Because, you see, I've learned something from Speaker. Sometimes if you don't show your fighting side, people will walk all over you. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 9 Sep 1996 14:23:57 GMT Organization: InfiNet Lines: 19 Message-ID: <51199t$o1o@news1.infinet.com> References: <32263D91.457F@prolog.net> <50a63p$mog@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160138 Leslie (leslie@io.com) wrote: : On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:02:09 -0400 in alt.callahans, : Kevin D. Knerr, Sr. said: : : I finally "found" Callahan's a few months ago. Among the first things : : that happened to me were that I was a) *warned* about StM and b) warned : : about *StM*. Needless to say, I plunged right on in, fully confident of : : my own knowledge and abilities. I tried to not let the warnings : : prejudice my opinion of him. : Leslie smiles a little. "Well, when you see someone about to stick : their hand into a buzzsaw, a warning is an appropriate thing, I think. : I still sort of wonder why Christians were sometimes so determined to : voluntarily feed themselves to that particular Kzin..." Shrug. For the same reason that anyone with a strongly held belief would take it up. Plus, there is some Christian-bashing that goes on, and they want to "take up the good fight". Finally, Speaker was more often wrong about a person's statements about religion than about just about anything else. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!mail2.sas.upenn.edu!akors From: akors@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Kors) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 9 Sep 1996 15:04:45 GMT Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 49 Message-ID: <511bmd$dlr@netnews.upenn.edu> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50svml$dld@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50tgls$kui@lex.zippo.com> <51046c$dn6@zap.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: mail2.sas.upenn.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2-upenn1.3] Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160144 Leslie (deirdre@zap.io.org) wrote: [StM's sig]: : --------------------------------------------------------------------------- : I try very hard to say exactly what I mean. I'd appreciate it if you'd : bear that in mind and not try to "interpret" my posts to fit your own : preconceived notions if I'm posting in a serious thread. Remember: If you : throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the result. : --------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Leslie's judgment]: : ---a minor masterpiece of 'truth in advertising.' The Prof never has disagreed with Leslie before (of course, the Prof has been gone a long while), but this seems worth contesting. StM was a singular person, and I regret his death profoundly. He was capable of individual acts of kindess, but he was not a kind person, and at times he was a cruel person. He was a very intelligent person, but he lacked both judgment and subtlety. One of the marks of judgment and subtlety is perspective... knowing the human dimensions of a disagreement and knowing the appropriate dimensions of a response. He also tried to bully the insecure, which is neither kind nor intelligent. He touched many of you, alienated more of you, and drove out people who simply were different from him or less bellicose than he was. Not quite the spirit of The Place. His sig. was very, very far from "truth in advertising." Carl set up strawmen all the time, above all by selectively caricaturing both the minds and the motivations of people who disagreed with him in a way that somehow triggered--who knows why?-- an overreaction. He drew satisfaction from that, not wholly of a healthy kind, whatever his sig. said. Far from trying "very hard to say exactly what I mean," he became metaphorical on the subject of other individuals' minds and motivations at the drop of a hat, seeking to provoke reactions, not thoughts. When individuals seemingly knew more than he did, or if their approval meant something deep to him, he backed off. When individuals showed insecurity of any kind, he went after them yet more. Not good. People upset with his manner, however, should have killfiled him, and certainly should not have engaged him, leaving those who found profit in his company free to continue to do so. Who talks to someone one doesn't like at a pub? Who knows what moved him? Life and the human psyche are complex beyond all of our categories. May he rest in peace. Cheers, ACK Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.iadfw.net!David From: elcabalero@aol.com (The Gentleman) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 14:47:22 GMT Organization: White Knight Consulting Lines: 27 Message-ID: <511hpv$eut@library.airnews.net> References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <2cb_9609100027@gastro.apana.org.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.121.14.131 X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 X-No-Archive: Yes Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160152 In article <2cb_9609100027@gastro.apana.org.au>, terrys@gastro.apana.org.au (Terry Smith) wrote: } > From: dpm@access4.digex.net (David P. Murphy) } > Date: 2 Sep 1996 22:29:36 -0400 } } > steve@adam.com.au (stephen white) writes: } }>Carl Lydick was completely correct when he pointed out that dpm }was }>attempting a crude form of emotional blackmail. } }Onya Spew! } } > PhaseOfTheMoon shakes his head tiredly, that once again }the } > mere mention of a personal tragedy is considered 'emotional } }Accepted. You have gone so far into depression you have started }speaking of yourself in the third person. A good shrink could }help. } UT steps forward, baring his fangs and grinning. "Speaking of ourselves as a third person narrative is a long-standing tradition here in a.c . I'd advise you not to read much into it." UT Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!munnari.OZ.AU!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.ade.connect.com.au!curlew.mtx.net.au!chuckie.apana.org.au!gastro!terrys From: terrys@gastro.apana.org.au (Terry Smith) Date: 09 Sep 96 23:15:34 Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: What happened to Carl Lydick? Message-ID: <2cb_9609100027@gastro.apana.org.au> References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> X-FTN-To: dpm@access4.digex.net Organization: Fidonet:3:800/846.23 Lines: 38 Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160148 > From: dpm@access4.digex.net (David P. Murphy) > Date: 2 Sep 1996 22:29:36 -0400 > steve@adam.com.au (stephen white) writes: >Carl Lydick was completely correct when he pointed out that dpm was >attempting a crude form of emotional blackmail. Onya Spew! > PhaseOfTheMoon shakes his head tiredly, that once again the > mere mention of a personal tragedy is considered 'emotional Accepted. You have gone so far into depression you have started speaking of yourself in the third person. A good shrink could help. > David P. Murphy apologizes to the readers of comp.os.vms and > sci.skeptic, assuring them that any continuation of this topic will > be kept within the bar. If David P Murphy wishes to partake in abusing and misusing the long-term customs of Usenet, take personal umbrage at newsgroup posts, and adopt the arrogant net-loon response of the `letter to your boss' because someone didn't like him pissing his self-pity into an area, that is David P Murphy's lookout. If he is aware that he is posting into sci-skeptic, then could he endevour to utilise conventions used in that area, such as using proper English. Piss off, you pretentious little git. Carl Lydick was informative and entertaining - 50 of you would merely make a thicket. Terry Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.izzy.net!izzy5!sewiv From: sewiv@izzy5.izzy.net (Sanford E. Walke IV) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 9 Sep 1996 16:16:06 GMT Organization: Isthmus Corporation Lines: 14 Message-ID: <511fs6$llv@izzy4.izzy.net> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50lbi5$c5g@lex.zippo.com> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50tmm9$i6g_001@ipt.aol.com> <50vtcp$rnn@lex.zippo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: izzy5.izzy.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160156 Zaphkiel wrote: : I didn't ask for permission. I'm not attacking them for things that Carl : did. I'm shaming them for things that they *didn't* do. No, you're attempting to. For you to be able to shame someone, they have to give a damn about what you have to say about them. From your past performance, I can assure you that I don't. -- Sandy sewiv@izzy.net "Fatty tissue, convolutions, chemicals and tiny lightning....this is all my head has to work with, so I cut it a lot of slack." -- JT I don't speak for anyone but myself, and sometimes not even that. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 9 Sep 1996 18:49:41 GMT Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <511os5$1ii@nadine.teleport.com> References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <2cb_9609100027@gastro.apana.org.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: kelly.teleport.com Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160187 In article <2cb_9609100027@gastro.apana.org.au>, Terry Smith wrote: > >Accepted. You have gone so far into depression you have started >speaking of yourself in the third person. A good shrink could >help. > "This is in fact an alt.callahans convention, which is where your followup landed. "...what was that about attention to customs?" :) R. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!mvb.saic.com!info-vax From: Mark Tarka Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: Re: Letters of Condolences to Carl Lydick's Family Message-ID: <009A81CF.4C614EE0.3@earth.oscs.montana.edu> Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 12:02:55 MDT Organization: Info-Vax<==>Comp.Os.Vms Gateway X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List Lines: 38 Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:155150 In article <1996Sep9.100238.2471@gems.vcu.edu>, agnew@gems.vcu.edu (Brainwave Surfer) writes: [NB Quote symbol is "|" for the current message.] |In article <50ljut$jc4@apollo.csd.net>, mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) writes: |> music@erich.triumf.ca (Fred W. Bach, TRIUMF Operations) writes: |> |>> I have personally contacted someone in Caltech Administration who |>> gave me the name, address, and phone number of the mortuary dealing [SNIP...] |> Murphy (scratch, scratch)...you've gone wee-wee on my favorite chair. |> Bad puppy. |> |> |> Mark |-- | | |Mark Tarka, shut up... you are a LOT meaner than Carl ever was, and with |less of a message to tell. Can I include that with my resume? |Carl lived, you don't... "Dogs bark, Mark, keep your stuff to yourself" Phew! This is way over my head. Hope you feel better for having said it. You took that post from alt.callahans, and brought it over here. Why? Are you trying to embarass Dave Murphy, or me? Answers by private email would be appreciated since I don't read this group very often (and won't be returning to alt.callahans :-) Mark ichjsmt@earth.oscs.montana.edu msu-bozeman USA Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!jsue@cs.indiana.edu From: "jeff l sue" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:17:34 -0500 (EST) Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University Lines: 23 Message-ID: <15128@842293068> References: <009A812C.E8387800.2@earth.oscs.montana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: numbfish.cs.indiana.edu Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:155151 In article <009A812C.E8387800.2@earth.oscs.montana.edu>, Mark Tarka wrote: > >Murphy, you promised this crowd there'd be no more leakage from >alt.callahans about this crusade of yours. I don't like cleaning up >other peoples puke. You show up here again and I'll say in this >venue what I said at alt.callahans, and include such questions as >WHO are these _others_ you refer to and WHY didn't you just tell >them to KILLFILE anything they didn't like in the same way you >suggested to me that I KILLFILE you, instead of sending those 35 >letters (which any reasonable mind has to dismiss as the ramblings >of a whiner) to Carl's coworkers and supervisors. > Uh oh. A C.L. wannabe... or is this a real-life example of reincarnation? I'd grade this a pretty weak simulation myself. -- JLS -- *I* said that - since I can | Help stamp out abolitionists! barely speak for myself, don't | even think of blaming someone | Ignorance is bliss... else. | for awhile anyway... Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!EU.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.interlog.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail From: deirdre@zap.io.org (Leslie) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 9 Sep 1996 17:05:03 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. Lines: 95 Message-ID: <5120pv$qt8@zap.io.org> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50sfle$fet@news1.infinet.com> <50tll2$mce@lex.zippo.com> <5113p3$m4j@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zap.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160211 Another post found on another newsgroup, sci.environment, where things are done differently than they are here. And yes, that is *the* Marvin Minsky. -------- ~From: jftims@borg.com (Jim Tims) ~Newsgroups: sci.environment ~Subject: Re: Carl Lydick, R.I.P. ~Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 04:59:00 GMT Organization: Semper Excelsior ~Lines: 104 *****BEGIN OLDISH POST Message-Id: <1992Dec21.042914.12598@news.media.mit.edu> ~References: <1gobp1INNik@gap.caltech.edu> ~Date: 21 Dec 92 04:29:14 GMT Cc: minsky ~From: minsky@media.mit.edu (Marvin Minsky) Organization: MIT Media Laboratory ~Sender: news@news.media.mit.edu (USENET News System) ~Subject: Re: On God and Science ~Newsgroups: sci.skeptic ~Lines: 48 In article <1gobp1INNik@gap.caltech.edu> carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes: >In article , kalki33!system@lakes.trenton.sc.us writes: >=O'Keefe accepts that life developed on earth entirely through physical >=processes of the kind envisioned by Darwin. He stresses, however, that >=many features of the laws of physics have just the right values to allow >=for life as we know it. He concludes from this that God created the >=universe for man to live in -- more precisely, God did this at the >=moment of the Big Bang, when the universe and its physical laws sprang >=out of nothing. > >And of course, in so concluding, he commits a fallacy. Were the laws of >physics otherwise, he wouldn't be around to contemplate them. There is no >information about whether or not the universe was designed for human >life to be found in the observations. At best, one can conclude that >it's not impossible that the universe was designed for human life. Certainly, this universe would seem to permit lots of different kinds of life. But even if this one were uniquely suitable for humans -- for example, if there were abundant natural supplies of tuxedos and other indispensable necessities, that would prove nothing at all. Because if I had the job of making universes, I would adopt the simplest of all strategies, namely, to set up an enumeration of all possible sets of laws, and create a different universe for each of them. To be sure, almost all of those universes would be uninhabitable by anything, but who cares. In other words, it seems to me that most religious thinkers have been too small minded to grasp even elementary consequences of omnipotence in the realm of infinite computations. Clearly, this strategy predicts that some of those universes will be extraordinarily well suited to human life. In some of *those* universes, as Carl Lydick would swiftly point out, the human inhabitants would have "irrefutable evidence" for the existence of even the Christian god, because their planet would be rich in elementary particles that recite verses from the Bible! And yet they'd be simply and totally wrong in their faith, because countless such worlds would arise in that infinite enumeration of possible worlds. You might note, by the way, that this argument shows that irrefyutable evidence is inconclusive against the deadly combination of the Anthropic Argument plus the recursive-generation-of-All-possible-worlds hypothesis, which (so far as I can see) is the most economical of all theories of origins. Now just think how flaky, by comparison, are all those "merely compelling" arguments! Cheers. ********END OLDISH POST I've read more of Carl's posts than I have of my own, I think. I usually agreed when Carl resorted to calling people stupid, ignorant, _et hoc genus omne_; they were, or were the first to make disparaging remarks, obviously trolling, or obstinate about yielding to incontrovertible evidence (or admitting to a lack of it for their own position). Every now and then, he would find out that he was the one brandishing urban folklore instead of the ChemRubber Handbook, but, as has already been noted, he had enough courage to concede. It would certainly demonstrate bad taste to publish any such defeat -- he won far more than he lost, I would think. As for his swearing...you have got to be puttin' me fuckin' *on*, right? I mean...this is USENET, Bozos! 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs1.bu.edu!mjmh From: mjmh@bu.edu (Michael Holmes) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 9 Sep 1996 20:01:34 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 176 Message-ID: <511t2u$7a6@news.bu.edu> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs1.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160213 /* slips quietly back into Callahans, with little fanfare, and no visits from Ed McMahon in drag. Ilene H. Morgan (imorgan@umr.edu) wrote: : This is about the fourth attempt at a reply to Leslie. The first three came : out too long and too scathing. Ilene does not want to start or propagate : a flame war, but she has had to bite her virtual tongue so hard, and so : often, that, were she biting her real tongue, it would be a bloody pulp by : now. /* notes that Ilene is taking a break from a.c, and is sorry that he missed her, as he returns from a similar 'vacation from Callahans'. And mentally notes that he is unsure of how successful his 'break' was at doing what he felt he needed to do to bring himself back here. For the record, /* seems once again cursed to see fairly clearly *both* sides of the issue. He certainly knows what Leslie and John and kitten and Jez have alluded to. But he also thinks that Ilene and Zaph and Unbe and others have made legitimate points, which perhaps have not been considered as carefully as they might have been. But this is a time of grief, about perhaps the _most_ controversial Patron of this virtual bar. There was a serious divergence of opinion AND experience of him while he was here to explain things _himself_, and this divergence of opinion AND experience persisted even then... it is impossible to expect that we will somehow come to a 'unified theory of Carl' at this point. And perhaps it is incorrect to even think that there IS a single, 'correct' way to see or understand Carl. : In article <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: : >"He was complex and complicated and just plain didn't *think* the same : >way most other folks do, although most people tried to fit him into : >a category they were more familiar with, causing them to misunderstand : >him by quite a wide margin. : "Leslie, I'm not saying that my opinion should influence you in any way. : But, for your information, whenever you say something like this (which is : pretty damned often), it comes across to me as incredibly patronizing and : smug. I think you should consider the possibility that some other people : understood StM better than you gave them credit for--perhaps better than : you." "I agree with Ilene... I have to admit I often 'get' the same impression, though not *only* from Leslie -- what I have read in these threads often *seems* to be... condescending. I doubt that this was intended, though, and hope that is understood. And I don't point this out to accuse anyone, but just to give them a point of reference when evaluating how their words are received by their readers." "Leslie, I have read your post about 'not hearing your tone of voice,' and it is a good point to remember. If I could make a suggestion, though... and this is certainly not directed _only_ at you... this is something that has happened fairly often. In your specific case, Leslie, you've had to point out to people more than once that they 'got your tone of voice wrong'. Perhaps it might not be a bad idea to try to include some more 'emotional referencing' in your posts." "Some of us *do* try to do this, in using the 'third person' style of presentation here, but I realize it isn't comfortable to everyone. But if you feel that your emotional tone is being misunderstood a substantial amount of time, you might want to do something *proactive* about it, rather than waiting for a tense response, and then reminding people they can't here your tone of voice." "This will also help for the times when you *really are* angry -- so that people don't *underestimate* your emotional tone, either." : >: He certainly never flamed me, or belittled me, or : >: made me feel like an idiot. : >"Because you didn't *argue* with him, you *listened* to him, and debated : >things with him in a thoughtful, logical way." : "This is bullshit, Leslie. I tried to think of some other way to word : this, but nothing else expressed my opinion adequately, so there it is. : I can't stop you from spouting bullshit of this sort, but, if you think : that everyone who listened to StM and debated things with him in a : thoughtful, logical way escaped his flames, then you're living in a : fantasy world. /* looks decidedly unhappy. "I'm definitely torn. I know that people are grieving, (and I've been trying to do that myself, but seem somehow 'stuck' for the moment), and I don't want to add to anyone's pain." "But... a *good number* of people in Callahans past and present have felt *pain* as a reaction to Speaker's words. And felt unable to get any resolution. Now, they won't *ever* get a resolution _through_ him, because he's gone. That's difficult, and painful, and leaves jagged edges around your heart." "All of these people _need_ to find a way to get past this pain. Suggesting that their *experiences* of Speaker are wrong or their own faults or even *seeming* to suggest this may be extremely unhelpful. And I know many of us are having trouble thinking beyond our own pain at Speaker's passing." "I have a feeling that many people who are seen as 'Speaker-defenders' (a title I might remind everyone that I myself have held) had, at some point in their net.relationship with Speaker, an 'Ah-HA!' experience. A realization that helped them to understand him a little better, something that 'clicked' and put his words, his net.style, into place." "And, operating from that 'ah-HA' realization makes it easy to suggest to others that they *didn't* have that same, more-comprehensive understanding of his actions." "Further, ANY post that suggests this, no matter how diplomatic, can be (mis)interpreted as belittling any *alternative* experience or understanding of Speaker's behavior. This is *understandable*." "However... as sacriligeous as this may seem... all of us who have had 'ah-HA' experiences COULD STILL BE WRONG about Speaker. Ultimately, no matter how you point to posts or personal email with Speaker, you are dealing with an OPINION about how you THINK he operated." "Because none of us WERE him. And that's the ONLY way to be 100% sure." "And even if we are *mostly* right about who he was, that doesn't mean that he DID behave the same way to everyone, nor did he behave rigidly, perfectly, consistently, even according to his own system of ethics/morality/behavior -- no one could, if they are human, because none of us is perfect." "What we all have are our individual experiences with Speaker, which we compile, successfully or not-as-successfully, into an 'understanding' of the man. I know that my experience of him is as 'true' as I can understand it, but that does NOT mean that, if Leslie's understanding of him is 'different', that one of us *must* be wrong." "And this is a *very* difficult concept to grasp, sometimes, and even harder to hold onto once it's been grasped. I've been using the term 'experience' very deliberately, as I think it's the best term for what I am looking for. When you tell someone that 'my experience of you is *this*' -- you are honestly telling someone what you have felt and observed WITHOUT saying 'you ARE this'. This allows for you to be right, for you to be wrong, OR for something fuzzy in the middle... because even though you may be 'experiencing' someone in a certain way, it *isn't* 'them' in their entirety." "All of us are rather multi-faceted people. As clear and as open as I try to be, (and as long-winded as I *know* I can be) I'm _certain_ that there are a variety of opinions and experiences of who *I* 'really' am. And all of them are true, but I doubt any of them are *wholly* true." "And I don't intend this to 'take anyone to task' -- but, I *do* hope that _everyone_ who has felt _anything_ at all about Carl's death will be free to express it here. Regardless of how 'Callahanianly Incorrect' it might be." "And... I also hope that any... 'objections' or 'rebuttals' to another person's opinion or experience of Speaker are... carefully thought about... so as not to seem 'invalidating'. This really isn't as 'factual' an area as I believe some people are considering it, and I'm afraid that's rubbing against the raw emotions on ALL sides of this discussion." "I have to admit that I sometimes feel as if there has been a 'hardening of the attitudes' in this Place, and diversity of experience is less valued than it used to be. I hope that this *isn't* true, especially in as emotionally-tangled a situation as this one." [/* will happily clarify any unclear statements either publically or through email.] -- /* -> Mike Holmes, Happiness Patrol // Happiness Will Prevail! \\ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Few things are needful to make the wise man happy, but nothing satisfies the fool; and this is the reason why so many of mankind are miserable." -- Duc Francois de La Rochefoucauld Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!scws43.harvard.edu!rkadel From: rkadel@scws43.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 9 Sep 1996 20:40:29 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts Lines: 32 Message-ID: <511vbt$2pn@decaxp.harvard.edu> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50qf46$6bk@news.orst.edu> <5101m9$7ng@nadine.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scws43.harvard.edu Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160206 In article <5101m9$7ng@nadine.teleport.com>, Randolph Fritz wrote: > >"And, you know, he apparently wasn't caring for himself before he >died--that's the truth in the glucose figures from the autopsy. Someone with type I diabetes (Speaker had slow-onset type I, which was initially misdiagnosed as type II) can have their blood sugar go very high -- even higher than 800, which was apparently the reading at the autopsy -- over the course of a day. We need not assume he was intentionally neglecting his BG levels -- it's not unreasonable to think that he may have been sufficiently incapacitated (by a heart attack?) to be unable to get at his insulin for a while before he died. It does sound like he was neglecting his heart medication. Hell >of a way to go. I'm sure he had reasons which, if asked, he would >defend at great length--yet I wonder if, in his quick harsh >judgements, he judged himself, and found himself wanting." > Acute hyperglycemia would be a hell of a strange suicide method to choose -- far too slow. (Insulin overdose would be quicker and less unpleasant, but unreliable -- and that clearly didn't happen, anyway.) Rachel WARNING: A violation of US law is about to occur. Please avert your eyes. "tits" Ok, you can look now. http://www.eff.org/blueribbon.html Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!newsfeeder.gi.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs1.bu.edu!mjmh From: mjmh@bu.edu (Michael Holmes) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 9 Sep 1996 20:48:32 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 52 Message-ID: <511vr0$7a6@news.bu.edu> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <50hcd2$i3v@news1.infinet.com> <50pisi$pok@library.airnews.net> <50squ8$qg1@nadine.teleport.com> <50tbl5$mnc@news1.infinet.com> <50tmrg$i6g_015@ipt.aol.com> <3233132A.62B@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs1.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160207 The Polymath (polymath@pacbell.net) wrote: : [ Discussion of who said what to whom and what it really meant and : how they should have said it, etc., etc., etc. ad nauseum deleted. ] [...] : I'm one of the old farts who was here when a.c was founded and : participated in discussions of just what the group was, what it should : be like and how to handle people who stepped out of our consensual : reality. Flame wars were unheard of back then and those who attempted : to start them were pointedly ignored (the equivalent of Fast Eddie's : blackjack). /* unfortunately came too late to the Place to catch those times, though he has lived them vicariously, through the archives and through talking with the 'original' OldTimers. He has to admit he's always felt a little... envious of that period of time in a.c, and occasionally felt a bit like... an 'outsider'. Times have certainly changed the culture of the : newsgroup. It's still one of the "kinder, gentler" ones on the net, : but flames are all too common now and no one thinks much about them. "That, I think, is not entirely true. Many, I feel, think about them quite a bit. Perhaps we don't react to them as often, or as clearly, as we should, but I don't *believe* it's correct to assume that we aren't concerned about them." : StM and our tolerance of him probably contributed somewhat to that : change in ambience. Now he's gone and we're stuck with it. Oh well. "Hmmm... we are stuck with the fact that StM is gone. Whatever effect he had on a 'change in ambience' is far from permanent, though, Polymath. The 'mood' of alt.callahans is a function of active posters and what they contribute. It can change at any moment, and often does." "I, personally, would not be surprised if there was a substantial shift in the mood of a.c that became obvious in about 2-4 months." : Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. The purple guy sighs, a little melodramatically. "Sing on, brother! I've definitely spent a bit too much time in the 'past', lately." -- /* -> Mike Holmes, Happiness Patrol // Happiness Will Prevail! \\ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Few things are needful to make the wise man happy, but nothing satisfies the fool; and this is the reason why so many of mankind are miserable." -- Duc Francois de La Rochefoucauld Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs1.bu.edu!mjmh From: mjmh@bu.edu (Michael Holmes) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 9 Sep 1996 20:27:44 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 89 Message-ID: <511uk0$7a6@news.bu.edu> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> <50qf46$6bk@news.orst.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs1.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160215 Unbeliever (byersr@ucs.orst.edu) wrote: : In article , : Ilene H. Morgan wrote: [...] : >"This is bullshit, Leslie. I tried to think of some other way to word : >this, but nothing else expressed my opinion adequately, so there it is. : "Thank you, Ilene. I came very close to saying this myself, but I don't : think Leslie would have taken it as well, coming from me. For unlike : Jez, Speaker *DID* flame and belittle me, on several occasions. The : first time was before I'd ever spoken to him; I didn't even know who he : was..." /* notes quietly that this is one among several instances that the purple guy is aware of where Carl did _not_ reply politely in his first response to a person. Carl _often_ gave at least a first 'polite' reply, but did _not_ do so consistently. : Unbe steels himself for the speech he must now give. /*, though days too late, tries to offer what support he can for what he knows is a difficult moment for Unbe. : "It's been said in this thread that Speaker was an asshole. It's been said : grudgingly, alongside lots of praise for his intelligence, for ``making : us think'', for standing up to what he believes in, and so on." : "I deny none of his good traits. He *WAS* intelligent. He *WAS* : logical. He *DID* make people think. But in my opinion, he was : something worse than ``just an asshole''. Something bad enough to : overshadow the good parts." : "Speaker to Minerals was an intentional giver of pain." : "Now, this is a bad enough thing on its own, but Speaker found a way to : make it much, much worse. You see..." : "He did it *HERE*." : Unbe pauses for emphasis. : "Of all places, of *ALL* *PLACES*, for someone to practice hurt and pain, : to make them into an art form all his own, Speaker to Minerals had to do : it in the ONE place dedicated to lessoning pain: Callahan's Place. I : don't care what his motives were. I don't care what his defenders say. : Intentionally causing pain *HERE* is unforgivable." /* hangs his head low, filled with conflicting emotions. Unbe's absence from Callahans is something that he has never been happy about. And he believes that Unbe's position is... supportable, although /* has been so tangled up in 'Speaker-threads' for years that he isn't sure he HAS a single, solid opinion on the matter. And perhaps that's unhelpful, too. : The Unbeliever turns a solemn gaze to the fireplace, and addresses his : long-time nemesis directly... : "I realize it must make me a horrible person in the eyes of some of the : Patrons here, but I do *NOT* raise a toast to you, Speaker. You brought : pain to me personally, and to many other undeserving souls in the Place. : And I won't forgive you for that. I'm sorry you're dead, and I'm sorry : for your affliction. But you asked no quarter, and you shall receive : none from me. Intentional pain is never justified..." /* whispers... "For what it's worth, Unbe, I think no less of you for saying this, and, in a way, I'm glad that you said it." : "I don't know how you managed it, but some very good people care a : great deal about you. Jezebel, Kitten, Leslie..." : Unbe sighs. : "For their sake: Rest in peace, Speaker." The purple man nods, slowly, then looks at Unbe, trying to let him know that he is always welcome at his table, or in his mbox. -- /* -> Mike Holmes, Happiness Patrol // Happiness Will Prevail! \\ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Few things are needful to make the wise man happy, but nothing satisfies the fool; and this is the reason why so many of mankind are miserable." -- Duc Francois de La Rochefoucauld Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs1.bu.edu!mjmh From: mjmh@bu.edu (Michael Holmes) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 9 Sep 1996 20:36:43 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 32 Message-ID: <511v4r$7a6@news.bu.edu> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50lbi5$c5g@lex.zippo.com> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50svml$dld@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs1.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160216 barbara trumpinski (kittent@staff.uiuc.edu) wrote: : zaphkiel: : > Your choice, of course. I would like to point out that among this crowd, : >chasing other people out gains you respect, and being chased out gains you : >a reputation as a loser. This is wrong, of course, but it IS the legacy : >of speaker. You know that as well as I do. Don't get mad, get even. [...] : your flat out statement 'chasing other people out gains you respect, : and being chased out gains you a reputation as a loser' is a lie. it : is not even a strawman, it is a lie." "But... Zaph is *far* from the only person to express something like that. Can we not at least acknowledge that people fairly frequently, or easily, can get this impression?" "And is there anything we can do to be *more* certain that fewer people will feel this way in the future? Isn't that a good thing, regardless of whether you think Zaph is 'right' or not?" "I mean, if it really is a *wrong* impression, why shouldn't we try to do something to make it less likely people will get a wrong impression of us?" -- /* -> Mike Holmes, Happiness Patrol // Happiness Will Prevail! \\ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Few things are needful to make the wise man happy, but nothing satisfies the fool; and this is the reason why so many of mankind are miserable." -- Duc Francois de La Rochefoucauld Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!symark!marty From: marty@symark.com Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: Re: Fear of Freedom Message-ID: <1996Sep9.173928.314@symark.com> Date: 9 Sep 96 17:39:28 PDT References: Organization: Symark Software, A Symark International Company Lines: 54 Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:155174 In article , Stafford@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford) writes: > In article <322c5dd9.339933788@scoop.eco.twg.com>, reece@eco.twg.com > (Reece R. Pollack) wrote: > >> [see the article] > >> Carl drove away many who would contribute to this newsgroup, and many >> who might have used the knowlege that they might have gained here to >> support the use of VMS. I agree with Reese. I've talked with a number of people who, even if they hadn't been cremated by him, personally, had seen the carnage brought about by an innocuous error and stayed away. I firmly believe that pompous windbags who spew error-filled missives as truths should suffer the same fate as the Hindenburg. On the other hand, those who slip should be helped up, not kicked while they're down. > Two words. KILL FILE. Now what the hell is so difficult about that? > If you don't like a person's posts, KILL them. That's what Kill Files > are all about. If using the kill file were one hundred percent effective, I'd agree. Unfortunately, my news reader doesn't kill follow-up messages, or seem to understand case-insensitivity. Thus, if I tell the news reader to kill everything from "Stafford@Wind.Winona.msus.edu", it still may allow "Stafford@WIND.WINONA.MSUS.EDU" through. This also doesn't address the bandwidth wasted by the original message and on the useless follow-up natter. > I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who don't understand that > Usenet is not for those afraid of freedom. Freedom doesn't necessarily mean having carte blanche to be uncouth, uncivilized, or boorish. Would you go to the public library or the community center in your area if you knew there were going to be a bunch of unruly, unsupervised, children running around, screaming at the top of their lungs, and throwing bags of excrement at your head? Probably not. Some newsgroups are currently like that. Some people will vociferously defend the rights of the bag throwers, and then fail to notice that the facilities are slowly emptying. Later, they'll probably be the same ones crying that the group has lost useful content. Of course, by that time the place will only have bag slinging mockingbirds and a few hardy souls in protective gear. The trick to freedom is to personally exercise the ability to differentiate between what is socially acceptable and what is not within the context of the group. If you don't, in most cases, that freedom will be constrained by external forces. It'll either legislated, moderated or made useless by the indifference of the forum. Marty Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!newsfeeder.gi.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 10 Sep 1996 01:18:16 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 46 Message-ID: <512fko$njh@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50lbi5$c5g@lex.zippo.com> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50svml$dld@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <511v4r$7a6@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160227 >: zaphkiel: >: > Your choice, of course. I would like to point out that among this crowd, >: >chasing other people out gains you respect, and being chased out gains you >: >a reputation as a loser. This is wrong, of course, but it IS the legacy >: >of speaker. You know that as well as I do. Don't get mad, get even. kitten: >[...] >: your flat out statement 'chasing other people out gains you respect, >: and being chased out gains you a reputation as a loser' is a lie. it >: is not even a strawman, it is a lie." /*: >"But... Zaph is *far* from the only person to express something >like that. Can we not at least acknowledge that people fairly >frequently, or easily, can get this impression?" >"And is there anything we can do to be *more* certain that >fewer people will feel this way in the future? Isn't that >a good thing, regardless of whether you think Zaph is 'right' >or not?" "it's a good thing, yes...that people shouldn't feel like they can be chased out of callahans, or that it is the approved way to behave. but, dammit, /*, there are too many people who would chase you or me or leslie or speaker out just because we don't play nice with them and by their rules....and by all that i hold holy, i know that i don't like their rules and i don't think they have the right to force them on me. niceness-nazis make me billious. >"I mean, if it really is a *wrong* impression, why shouldn't we >try to do something to make it less likely people will get >a wrong impression of us?" "poison-tongued politeness will give some people a worse impression, as will the encouragement of hypocrisy." -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!news.dra.com!news.starnet.net!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 10 Sep 1996 01:21:18 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 33 Message-ID: <512fqe$nne@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50qf46$6bk@news.orst.edu> <5101m9$7ng@nadine.teleport.com> <511vbt$2pn@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160226 randolph: >>"And, you know, he apparently wasn't caring for himself before he >>died--that's the truth in the glucose figures from the autopsy. rachel: >Someone with type I diabetes (Speaker had slow-onset type I, which was >initially misdiagnosed as type II) can have their blood sugar go very high >-- even higher than 800, which was apparently the reading at the autopsy >-- over the course of a day. We need not assume he was intentionally >neglecting his BG levels -- it's not unreasonable to think that he may >have been sufficiently incapacitated (by a heart attack?) to be unable >to get at his insulin for a while before he died. >It does sound like he was neglecting his heart medication. "according to his sister, he wasn't taking it at all. and the bruising in his chest area indicated a rupture in his heart." >Hell >>of a way to go. I'm sure he had reasons which, if asked, he would >>defend at great length--yet I wonder if, in his quick harsh >>judgements, he judged himself, and found himself wanting." "god, randolph...you KNOW he would have flamed that statement." -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 10 Sep 1996 02:39:58 GMT Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 Lines: 33 Message-ID: <512kdu$gk6@nadine.teleport.com> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <5101m9$7ng@nadine.teleport.com> <511vbt$2pn@decaxp.harvard.edu> <512fqe$nne@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kelly.teleport.com Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160241 In article <512fqe$nne@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, barbara trumpinski wrote: >rachel: >>Someone with type I diabetes (Speaker had slow-onset type I, which was >>initially misdiagnosed as type II) can have their blood sugar go very high >>-- even higher than 800, which was apparently the reading at the autopsy >>-- over the course of a day. We need not assume he was intentionally >>neglecting his BG levels -- it's not unreasonable to think that he may >>have been sufficiently incapacitated (by a heart attack?) to be unable >>to get at his insulin for a while before he died. > >>It does sound like he was neglecting his heart medication. > >"according to his sister, he wasn't taking it at all. and the >bruising in his chest area indicated a rupture in his heart." > "I stand corrected on the medical details. It appears my general observation was correct, though." >>Hell >>>of a way to go. I'm sure he had reasons which, if asked, he would >>>defend at great length--yet I wonder if, in his quick harsh >>>judgements, he judged himself, and found himself wanting." > >"god, randolph...you KNOW he would have flamed that statement." > "Of course...and now I can't even curse him, or do anything to him worse than he's done to himself. Life and death are weird." -- Randolph Fritz randolph@teleport.com Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp.teleport.com!usenet From: randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 10 Sep 1996 07:45:36 GMT Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5136b0$t01@nadine.teleport.com> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50svml$dld@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <511v4r$7a6@news.bu.edu> <512fko$njh@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kelly.teleport.com Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160263 In article <512fko$njh@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, barbara trumpinski wrote: > >"poison-tongued politeness will give some people a worse impression, >as will the encouragement of hypocrisy." > "Martin Luther King once said, in response to critics who told him to quit rocking the boat, 'Peace is not the absence of conflict, but the presence of justice.' I think that's a good touchstone--not 'is that nice?' but 'is justice being done?'" -- Randolph Fritz randolph@teleport.com Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.supernet.net!news.magicnet.net!news.iag.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 10 Sep 1996 11:30:58 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 40 Message-ID: <513jhi$i4e@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> <322cedbd.9542944@news.usit.net> <50k37r$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50lbi5$c5g@lex.zippo.com> <50ls1r$62r@izzy4.izzy.net> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50svml$dld@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <511v4r$7a6@news.bu.edu> <512fko$njh@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160281 >/*: >>"But... Zaph is *far* from the only person to express something >>like that. Can we not at least acknowledge that people fairly >>frequently, or easily, can get this impression?" >>"And is there anything we can do to be *more* certain that >>fewer people will feel this way in the future? Isn't that >>a good thing, regardless of whether you think Zaph is 'right' >>or not?" kitten: >"it's a good thing, yes...that people shouldn't feel like they can be >chased out of callahans, or that it is the approved way to behave. >but, dammit, /*, there are too many people who would chase you or me >or leslie or speaker out just because we don't play nice with them and >by their rules....and by all that i hold holy, i know that i don't >like their rules and i don't think they have the right to force them >on me. >niceness-nazis make me billious. "i woke up in the middle of the night and tried to apologize for this line, /*, because i was NOT refering to you. i know there is a difference between the happiness patrol and the PC police...and i appreciate and honor your efforts to spread joy and share pain. you succeed more often than not and being nice is an intrinsic part of your being. you are a tolerant soul...will you accept my apology, mike?" kitten in RL(tm) actually did lose sleep worrying that she hurt her friends feelings....but the bloody computer didn't want to let me in last night. -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!d0niu4.fnal.gov!MORPHIS From: morphis@d0niu4.fnal.gov Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 10 Sep 1996 15:10:09 GMT Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab Lines: 47 Message-ID: <5140ch$o1k@fnnews.fnal.gov> References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <50hn8g$ktn@news1.infinet.com> ,<50k3hs$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50ngvg$5jn@fnnews.fnal.gov>,<50p667$l47@news1.infinet.com> Reply-To: morphis@d0niu4.fnal.gov NNTP-Posting-Host: d0niu4.fnal.gov Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160291 jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) writes: >morphis@D0NIU3.FNAL.GOV wrote: >: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) writes: > >: >: "I am not attributing motives. I am echoing the statements made >: >: by Carl himself. >: > >: > So Carl said something that paraphrases to "I want to make newcomers >: >feel so unwelcome that they don't post again."? > >: How about "I want clueless newbies to go away"? > > Nope, that doesn't paraphrase to my above quote. Where did I say that it did? >It specifies a >subset of newbies that he wishes would go away. Since "cluelessness" and >"newbiedom" are both correctable problems, it also doesn't suggest that he >wants people to "feel so unwelcome that they don't post again." and yet that is the clear result for many people. "I don't want the land to be radioactive, I just wanted to dig a big hole and a nuke was the easiest method" >: > BTW: Yes, that is *EXACTLY* the point of contention here. You are >: >saying you know WHY Carl acted a certain way. I'm saying "I'm very sure >: >that you're over-speaking yourself." > >: I wouldn't be so sure :) > > I would be, and am. . . and I'm more sure now. Ok, let me clarify. dpm is not far off the mark in the motives that he says that Carl assigned for himself. You are (I believe) trying to argue that Carl was simply trying to correct the problem, I am stating that the very strong flavor of what Carl Lydick stated was that he was quite happy to chase them away. My memory being what it is, I am quite willing to grant that he would be satisfied with having educated a few, but that wasn't HIS STATED PRIMARY PURPOSE. John, please remember that dpm and I both saw Carl (not StM) in action in c.o.v. which is a different place than this. Robert Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news-in.tiac.net!sunfish.hi.com!clam.Hi.COM!not-for-mail From: wright@clam.Hi.COM (David Wright) Newsgroups: alt.callahans,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Letters of Condolences to Carl Lydick's Family Date: 10 Sep 1996 14:12:47 -0400 Organization: English Language Relay Satellite Service Lines: 27 Distribution: world Message-ID: <514b2v$n4p@clam.Hi.COM> References: <4SEP199613161146@erich.triumf.ca> <512ko7$tko@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: clam.hi.com Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160316 sci.skeptic:208174 [newsgroups severely trimmed] In article <512ko7$tko@cuugnet.cuug.ab.ca> cmatrix@cuug.ab.ca (Michael "Mr Credulous" Fullerton) writes: >Fred W. Bach, TRIUMF Operations (music@erich.triumf.ca) wrote: >: I have personally contacted someone in Caltech Administration who >: gave me the name, address, and phone number of the mortuary dealing >: with Carl's passing. The mortuary is not having a service for Carl >: there, but they will be happy to pass along messages of condolences >: to Carl's family back east. Address your letters to: >If anyone knows the exact location of where this cat is buried, >please tell me. I would very much like to dance on his grave. You're a class act, Fullerton. It sure is great to see that you've oozed back onto sci.skeptic. Apparently, someone overturned the rock under which you'd been residing. I'm really looking forward to reading your credulous posts again, and your "skeptopath" diatribes against anyone who doesn't share your ability to believe any idiotic notion that comes along. Carl, if you can post from beyond the grave, we could use you. -- David Wright :: wright@hi.com :: Not an Official Spokesman for Anyone These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "The Internet is the bastard love-child of Thomas Pynchon and Cyndi Lauper." -- Deaddog Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!usenet From: tzhosk@cyberstore.ca (Sorrowsbane) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 10 Sep 1996 16:01:44 GMT Organization: Cyberstore Systems Inc. Lines: 8 Message-ID: <5143d8$haa@scipio.cyberstore.ca> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50r82t$ef9@lex.zippo.com> <50svml$dld@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50tgls$kui@lex.zippo.com> <51046c$dn6@zap.io.org> <511bmd$dlr@netnews.upenn.edu> Reply-To: tzhoskin@uniserve.com NNTP-Posting-Host: yvr-ppp-61.cyberstore.ca X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+ Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160333 In article <511bmd$dlr@netnews.upenn.edu>, akors@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Alan Kors) says: >StM was a singular person, and I regret his death profoundly. Sorrowsbane regrets StM's death, and regrets having somehow gotten onto the irascible Kzintosh's idiot list. Our last conversation (almost entirely in email) was very frustrating at the time, saddening now. It must have been hard to be official bullshit detector to so many newsgroups. Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.iadfw.net!171-150-44 From: elcabalero@aol.com (The Gentleman) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Truth, and Consequences. Date: Sun, 08 Sep 96 23:19:48 GMT Organization: White Knight Consulting Lines: 153 Message-ID: <50vkak$j60_001@ipt.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 171-150-44.ipt.aol.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 X-US-Congress: FUCK OFF! Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160052 UT is wandering around, listening in on this conversation and that, his face getting grimmer as he does. "ENOUGH!" The bellow resounds off the walls of The Place, the echoes rebounding from its fractal walls. 90Db, maybe a bit more. "I sit here, and I listen to people explaining all the reasons why it was all right for Carl to be the way he was. That it wasn't his fault so many people chose to leave, citing him as a reason." His form is morphing rapidly back and forth from human to tiger and back. His agitation is clear in both. Visibly, he pauses, reasserts control, and stabilizes as a human, a pained look on his face. "It's 90% bullshit. Truth is never more than a grain at the core, and the real meat of the issue is getting lost in the mechanics." "So what is the meat?" a faceless patron asks. "That, at least online, Carl was not a nice guy who sometimes acted like an asshole. He was a mean, nasty, son of a bitch that did nice things sometimes. If you didn't make him mad. If you conformed to his standards of posting. If you never, ever, said he was flat-out wrong." "All this 'noble seeker after truth' crap is just that, crap." "He treated someone like an idiot, called her a moron, and told her to fuck off. But, that's okay, because she was acting like a bimbo. BULLSHIT! Last time I heard something like that, my sister was explaining why it was okay that my brother-in-law was beating her, because he only did it when she made him mad." "He intimidated his friends, forcing them to conform with his value system, or he would get digusted with them and call them names. But, that's okay, because it really was what they thought, anyway. BULLSHIT! I am 6'1", 260 pounds, and an evil looking SOB when I am upset. If I stand over some guy and ask him about his opinion, he's probably going to ask me what mine is. And if I regularly train him with mild insults and little rewards, he'll be my best friend in the world." "He emasculated his allies, refusing to allow them to question his tactics, unloading a barrage of abuse if they so dared. But, that's okay, because he was just being very direct. BULLSHIT! 'Your honor, I beat my kids, but only because I want them to behave.'" "He claimed that analogies like these were invalid, because there was no physical presence involved. BULLSHIT! He was an expert at finding out what would hurt people, emotionally, and using it to maximum effect. And in all of these examples, the emotional aspects are the significant factor, not the element of physical presence." "And for those who made him mad, didn't understand, questioned his veracity, trespassed on his intellectual domain in ways he didn't approve of, or just plain refused to knuckle under and go along with what he was doing, he pulled out all the stops. He insulted them, hounded them, lied, cheated, and generally drove them nuts until they just couldn't take it any more. And then claimed that it wasn't his fault, that *they* *CHOSE* to leave. BULLSHIT!" "That he insulted them isn't subject to question, he insulted almost everybody, eventually. That he hounded them? He followed me around for a month straight in here, posting a insulting reply to nearly every post I made, even though he knew he was in my killfile. He threw a gratuitous insult of me into almost every post he made in other threads, so that his chances of being quoted by someone I was reading were as high as possible. I think I can safely say he hounded me. That he lied? He would repeatedly crop out half a paragraph, then insist that I had made a assertion without proof, when the proof WAS IN THE HALF HE CUT OUT! Then, when I posted the original paragraph, and showed that the proof was there, HE WOULD DO IT AGAIN, AND CALL *ME* A LIAR!" UT again pauses, breathing hard and flushed. With obvious effort, he calms himself, then continues. "Cheated? He was absolutely insistent that you take his words as he meant them. Any failure to do so was proof that you were too stupid to understand, or that you were deliberately misinterpreting him, a capital crime. And, at the same time, reinterpreting your words into something it was obvious you hadn't meant, and insist that was not only what you said, but what you believed. With no chance of explanation, revision, or qualification. If you tried, he would just continue the conversation without you, demolishing the position you never took, insulting you for having taken it, and calling you a liar for having denied it. He wouldn't follow the rules he set for other people, that sounds like cheating to me." "And if you were wrong, you had to crawl. You had to get on your metaphorical knees and beg him for forgiveness for having failed. And maybe, just maybe, he would forgive you. If you proved him wrong? Nothing. Zero. He would simply drop the subject with no reply, and any attempt to bring it back up with be met with a fresh salvo of abuse, more insults, more lies. Absolute outrage that you would try to rub his nose in it." "And that it wasn't his fault? That he never 'forced' someone to leave? In a philosphical sense, you can never force anyone to do anything. They always have a choice. He would present them with a choice between a daily round of insults, slander, and abuse, or calling it quits and leaving. Exactly how does presenting them to this choice represent a moral improvement on simply forcing them out?" "You see, all these explanations depend on one implicit assumption, that he had the right to be such an asshole, because he was seeking truth. And that's bullshit." 'Truth gets well if she is run over by a locomotive, while error dies of lockjaw if she scratches her finger.' --William Cullen Bryant "Truth does not need protection. The truth is the truth, and remains so, regardless. If all he wanted was the truth, he simply needed to look for it. If I say the sky is purple with yellow polka-dots, it doesn't change color just because nobody disagrees with me. And if someone voices a potentially dangerous falsehood, it is not necessary to viciously attack them for it. A simple correction, with an exact explanation of why, is all that's necessary. Nothing more. If Carl's methods were appropriate to Carl's ends, then Carl's ends were more than just the truth." "No. Carl was not a noble seeker of truth. Carl was a bully, using his superior flaming skills to make sure that everyone walked on eggshells around him. That some of you were his friends does not change this fact. That he was more than that does not change it." "Here's a question for you. If this post is 100% incorrect, if nothing in it applies to Carl or anyone else, can it hurt anyone? By Carl's strictly rational rules?" "I am not making this post to hurt anyone. Some of the things I wrote may sting, a little. I am writing this post because I am tired of so many people acting like Carl's victims asked for everything they got. That if they had just gone along with Carl, met his standards, they never would have had a problem." "He had no right. To say that we should have knuckled under is to insult us, to say that we were the ones to blame, and only us. And that simply is not true. What kind of logic says that Carl's habits were merely a posting quirk, but failure to meet his standards was justification for anything he did?" "Seems suspiciously like the logic that blames rape victims for tempting a man, who only did what his drives made him do." "Nor am I insulting those of you who got along with Carl. I am simply saying that each of you formed a separate peace with him, and did so through some form of appeasement, because that was the only way he'd have it." UT -- Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. --Thomas Paine Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Truth, and Consequences. ~Date: 10 Sep 1996 04:52:18 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 47 Message-ID: <513a82$cjf@zot.io.org> ~References: <50vkak$j60_001@ipt.aol.com> <5136vp$7s@nadine.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160269 On 10 Sep 1996 07:56:41 GMT in alt.callahans, Randolph Fritz said: : "Gentleman, thank you for an eloquent statement of the anti-Speaker : position. "Eloquent, yes. A lot of it plain wrong? Also yes." [old post of Randolph's] : > "Unfortunately, I agree with you (there's more on this in another : > reply to you). I just disagree with your methods. And I think : > you're acting like--oh, hell, you're going to *hate* this analogy, : > but I can't think of a better one--like one of those : > fire-and-brimstone preachers who's so interested in protecting the : > souls of his congregation that he won't let in any ideas that don't : > agree with his reading of scripture. Now--he sincerely cares for : > his congregation. But he's afraid of ideas, ideas he perceived as being *harmful* to people : > he's afraid of free thought, Bullfuckingshit. That's why he berated people so mercilessly for *not* thinking? That's why he posted once saying he thought the main problem in the world today is a dearth of critical thought? That it was a big problem, when people would think 'how might this be right,' and *not* think 'how might this be *wrong*'--? He built his reputation as being the Best Bullshit Detector on the Net by always, always, *always* thinking: how might this be wrong? Although I do think it was clear he didn't, in the last year, apply that to *himself* perhaps quite as often or as thoroughly as he ought to have. : "Does this make him clearer, perhaps? Speaker genuinely *cared*. For : real. And--I think--this is one reason he has been loved. And he was : also bullying and manipulative--and for this reason made enemies." "I'm astonished. I agree with you here, Randolph. What, did hell freeze over--?" Leslie. And me without ice skates, too. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Truth, and Consequences. ~Date: 10 Sep 1996 07:26:43 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 291 Message-ID: <513j9j$ejt@zot.io.org> ~References: <50vkak$j60_001@ipt.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160294 On Sun, 08 Sep 96 23:19:48 GMT in alt.callahans, The Gentleman said: : : "That, at least online, Carl was not a nice guy who sometimes acted like : an asshole. He was a mean, nasty, son of a bitch that did nice things : sometimes. If you didn't make him mad. If you conformed to his : standards of posting. If you never, ever, said he was flat-out wrong." "That last, at least, is untrue. If you said he was wrong on a matter of fact, and backed it up with solid proof, he backed down. Matters of personal interpretation, however, were another matter entirely. The first part above is a matter of personal interpretation." : "All this 'noble seeker after truth' crap is just that, crap." "No it isn't, not *entirely*. That was his *ideal*." : "He treated someone like an idiot, called her a moron, and told her to : fuck off. But, that's okay, because she was acting like a bimbo. BULLSHIT! : Last time I heard something like that, my sister was explaining why it was : okay that my brother-in-law was beating her, because he only did it when she : made him mad." "If you're talking about kitten here, please do remember, she very often attacked him *first*, and she gave as good as she got, too. Perhaps kitten believes in the 'sticks and stones' adage--? If she wasn't damaged by what he did, there is *NO COMPARISON* with the analogy of a wife excusing a beating. (I hope your sister is OUT of that mess!) "Please note that I personally agreed with his *flames* in about 5% of the cases he used them. I agreed he was *right* in about 90% of the cases." : "He intimidated his friends, forcing them to conform with his value : system, or he would get digusted with them and call them names. But, that's : okay, because it really was what they thought, anyway. BULLSHIT! "You're trying to claim it *wasn't* really what they thought? Are you a mindreader, or something? Please: don't generalize from your own sensitivity to insults, and conclude others must have been similarly affected. Cuz it tain't necessarily so. [...] : "He emasculated his allies, refusing to allow them to question his : tactics, unloading a barrage of abuse if they so dared. "EXCUSE ME? You must've misread all that email that he and I exchanged. Oh, wait....you never did SEE the email he and I exchanged. This is bullshit. You must've missed the posts I made where I disagreed with him, too. Of course, you weren't *here* to SEE what actually went on..." : But, that's okay, : because he was just being very direct. BULLSHIT! 'Your honor, I beat my : kids, but only because I want them to behave.'" "Words on a computer monitor have *NO COMPARISON* to a physical beating. This is over-reacting of the worst sort. It was okay *with me*, because I didn't GIVE a shit if he ever flamed me or not. It did not cause me hurt or damage of ANY kind. Can you comprehend that, I wonder--?" : "He claimed that analogies like these were invalid, because there was no : physical presence involved. BULLSHIT! He was an expert at finding out what : would hurt people, emotionally, and using it to maximum effect. And in : all of these examples, the emotional aspects are the significant : factor, not the element of physical presence." "IF you were afraid of insults, yes. What about everyone--the vast majority--who WEREN'T afraid of them, but merely disliked them? "And I find this ironic in the extreme. *I* had thought he was generally perceived as 'not understanding other people very well.' And yet you paint him as an expert at analysis, so expert that he could zero in on weaknesses? He hit your weakness *by accident*, UT. He wasn't treating you any differently than he'd treated many many others before you. He was just following true to his normal patterns. "AND I FUCKING TRIED TO MAKE HIM STOP, TOO." : "That he insulted them isn't subject to question, he insulted almost : everybody, eventually. That he hounded them? He followed me around for a : month straight in here, posting a insulting reply to nearly every post : I made, "And agreed with you civilly in at least a *few* others..." : even though he knew he was in my killfile. He threw a gratuitous : insult of me into almost every post he made in other threads, so that : his chances of being quoted by someone I was reading were as high as : possible. I think I can safely say he hounded me. That he lied? He : would repeatedly crop out half a paragraph, then insist that I had made : a assertion without proof, when the proof WAS IN THE HALF HE CUT OUT! "Believe it or not, he had a reason for doing that. A rationale, anyway. I won't bother going into it, but, it wasn't devoid of logic, to him. That was the problem--I *felt* something was wrong with his logic there, but I didn't know *what* was wrong, logic not being my strongest suit. I did eventually figure it out: that it didn't *matter* if he had a reason--the *result* was still the same, taking someone out-of- context. And a difference that makes no difference *is* no difference. I had planned to bring that up to him....and then he went off the net. "But, I'll tell you this: I caught him doing it to Archangel, and I *posted* 'Cut it out, when you do that, it makes you look stupid.' Oh yes. So subservient of me, no? So fearful of his reaction! And....he emailed a polite explanation, which I'd already known beforehand would *be* his explanation. That was rather my point in posting: to get him to respond, to explain, in a post. To my surprise, AFAIK, he never *did* follow up to that post of mine. He let it stand. Maybe my point sank home, after all..." : Then, when I posted the original paragraph, and showed that the proof : was there, HE WOULD DO IT AGAIN, AND CALL *ME* A LIAR!" "I'd have to see what you actually said...he had a *very* annoying habit of taking people dead literally. If there was something *above* the proof he objected to, sometimes he *would* stop at that point, until his objection was answered. Stubborn, he was. Very. "THIS DOES NOT MEAN YOU *DESERVED* TO BE FLAMED, BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION. It *only* means he found something wrong, somewhere, and it seemed to him that you were insisting *he* was wrong to say you were wrong. *That* would set him off--if he actually *did* have some sort of leg to stand on, and he knew it." : UT again pauses, breathing hard and flushed. With obvious effort, he : calms himself, then continues. "Here, have another beer..." [...] : And, at : the same time, reinterpreting your words into something it was obvious you : hadn't meant, and insist that was not only what you said, but what you : believed. With no chance of explanation, revision, or qualification. If you : tried, he would just continue the conversation without you, demolishing the : position you never took, insulting you for having taken it, and calling : you a liar for having denied it. He wouldn't follow the rules he set : for other people, that sounds like cheating to me." "Stuff like this makes me nuts, UT. I want so badly to be able to *read* the originals of what you're talking about. Often I saw miscommunication at the root of his flamewars. I have no way to judge whether or not he *really* screwed up, and invented something, or whether he was just taking you or someone else literally, and you didn't realize that's what he was doing." "I know for a fact he *did* screw up, that once, remember? When he jumped your case for simply remarking on the fact people talked about him in RL sometimes as much as in VR... "And I called him on it, and he shut up. No argument, at all. I thought it was fun to make him shut up, actually. Quite the achievement, considering. But I have a warped sense of fun... "And now...I wonder, if I *could* have affected him more, or more often. If I hadn't been thinking his mind was made up, so what was the point?" [...] : "Truth does not need protection. The truth is the truth, and remains so, : regardless. If all he wanted was the truth, he simply needed to look for it. : If I say the sky is purple with yellow polka-dots, it doesn't change color : just because nobody disagrees with me. And if someone voices a potentially : dangerous falsehood, it is not necessary to viciously attack them for it. A : simple correction, with an exact explanation of why, is all that's necessary. : Nothing more. If Carl's methods were appropriate to Carl's ends, then : Carl's ends were more than just the truth." "He wanted things he saw as wrong *stopped* and stopped cold. And that's what his tactics revealed. And also that he was one *seriously* opinionated s.o.b.. But I knew the job was dangerous when I took it..." : "No. Carl was not a noble seeker of truth. Carl was a bully, using his : superior flaming skills to make sure that everyone walked on eggshells around : him. That some of you were his friends does not change this fact. That he : was more than that does not change it." "His flames made certain that nobody anywhere would mistake him for agreeing with whatever he was arguing with. That was his one purely selfish motive." : "Here's a question for you. If this post is 100% incorrect, if : nothing in it applies to Carl or anyone else, can it hurt anyone? By : Carl's strictly rational rules?" "Yes, actually, it can cause hurt. Because you're posting in front of an *audience*. And if I don't speak up to correct the things that seem to misinterpret *me*, at least, then there's the chance that someone might take your view of things as being the correct one. That could have an effect on how they view me in the future. That bothers me. A lot." : "I am not making this post to hurt anyone. Some of the things I : wrote may sting, a little. I am writing this post because I am tired : of so many people acting like Carl's victims asked for everything they : got. That if they had just gone along with Carl, met his standards, : they never would have had a problem." "There is to me NO connection between 'not meeting his standards' and thus *deserving* or asking for what they got. True, a few people here and there *did* really strike me as 'asking for it' (not to mention deserving it). But only a very very few. And what applies to discussions in *other* newsgroups very obviously does NOT apply all that well here in a.c., either. : "He had no right. To say that we should have knuckled under is to insult : us, to say that we were the ones to blame, and only us. And that simply is : not true. What kind of logic says that Carl's habits were merely a posting : quirk, but failure to meet his standards was justification for anything he : did?" "This ignores one fact: he was here, and he wasn't going anywhere. That was the reality that *had* to be dealt with." : "Seems suspiciously like the logic that blames rape victims for : tempting a man, who only did what his drives made him do." "If a woman could hit the 'n' key on her newsreader and make a rapist vanish, I'd *almost* agree with you." : "Nor am I insulting those of you who got along with Carl. I am simply : saying that each of you formed a separate peace with him, and did so through : some form of appeasement, because that was the only way he'd have it." "Dave, you're missing a *few* facts, here and there. Read this: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ~Subject: Re: Stamp Collecting ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Date: 1996/06/20 Message-Id: <4qalhk$jue@zot.io.org> ~References: <31C5B366.CE2@hic.net> <4q7d29$doo@gap.cco.caltech.edu> <83519954 7snz@argus.demon.co.uk> Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans In article <835199547snz@argus.demon.co.uk>, Andy May wrote: >In article <4q7d29$doo@gap.cco.caltech.edu> > lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU "Speaker-to-Minerals" writes: > >[Hodgepodge makes a pun] > >> Instead of applying the liberal dose of bullshit you seem to've decided was >> appropriate, why didn't you talk to her about the reasons for stamp >> collecting, and let her make an informed decision? Or are you simply >> trying to raise another moron in your own image? > >"Quick, is there a sense-of-humour-repair-man in the house ? Speaker's >seems to have broken down .... " ADVISORY: non-serious allegation follows. Repeating: non-serious. "Obviously, Speaker was feeling bad about the fact that kitten never has any examples to show in evidence of her claim that he sometimes talks out of his ass. Therefore, out of the generousity of his heart, he's provided her with a splendid example of having his head so far up his ass he could give himself a tonsilectomy,(*) just to make kitten feel better, and I for one think this was quite a noble gesture on his part." Leslie. Over on alt.peeves they'd refer to this as 'stepping on your dick.'(**) Charming phrase, so evocative. (*) This should not be construed as implying that Speaker still has his tonsils, or is need of a tonsilectomy. I have no information as to whether or not he is still in possession of his tonsils. (**) And if this occured because he wasn't watching his blood sugar I WILL HUNT THE MORON DOWN AND SMACK HIM WITH A 2X4 PERSONALLY. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Tell me again, about how he 'intimidated' me, and about how I worked so hard to 'appease' him, UT." "The ONLY thing I worked hard at was my *word choices*. Period. And remembering to throw in lots and lots of qualifers. I do believe I got away with a lot because I simply said 'it seems to me that...' indicating I wasn't trying to state something as a *fact*, but that it was what I *thought* was a fact. And there's a difference." "This is 'knuckling under'--? I called it 'speaking his language.'" Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!usenet ~From: randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Truth, and Consequences. ~Date: 10 Sep 1996 07:56:41 GMT Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 ~Lines: 33 Message-ID: <5136vp$7s@nadine.teleport.com> ~References: <50vkak$j60_001@ipt.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kelly.teleport.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160265 "Gentleman, thank you for an eloquent statement of the anti-Speaker position. "Now I want to present a way to look at Speaker's conduct here. I used to make jokes about it--the 'One True Kzinnish Way' and the Speakerish Inquisition. But...the jokes contained a kernel of truth. Here's something I wrote directly to Speaker, errors included: > "Unfortunately, I agree with you (there's more on this in another > reply to you). I just disagree with your methods. And I think > you're acting like--oh, hell, you're going to *hate* this analogy, > but I can't think of a better one--like one of those > fire-and-brimstone preachers who's so interested in protecting the > souls of his congregation that he won't let in any ideas that don't > agree with his reading of scripture. Now--he sincerely cares for > his congregation. But he's afraid of ideas, he's afraid of free > thought, and he's teaching his congregation his fear as well. And > that's what it seems to me you are doing. It's not just the > distraught you're protecting; it's adults with their own critical > minds, who have the right to choose what they put in their > minds--even if it horrifies you, or horrifies me. If you've got a > real case, you can make it without ad hominem insults and > browbeating. As someone who's made this particular mistake--when I > find I have the impulse to do that, I *know* my thinking is wrong, > wrong, wrong--and if I'm foolish enough to yield to that impulse, I > will generally find out exactly how I'm wrong, to my regret." "Does this make him clearer, perhaps? Speaker genuinely *cared*. For real. And--I think--this is one reason he has been loved. And he was also bullying and manipulative--and for this reason made enemies." -- Randolph Fritz randolph@teleport.com Path: news2.digex.net!news.intercon.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Truth, and Consequences. ~Date: 10 Sep 1996 11:45:04 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <513kc0$ikr@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <50vkak$j60_001@ipt.aol.com> <5136vp$7s@nadine.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160284 randolph: >"Now I want to present a way to look at Speaker's conduct here. I >used to make jokes about it--the 'One True Kzinnish Way' and the >Speakerish Inquisition. But...the jokes contained a kernel of truth. >Here's something I wrote directly to Speaker, errors included: >> "Unfortunately, I agree with you (there's more on this in another >> reply to you). I just disagree with your methods. And I think >> you're acting like--oh, hell, you're going to *hate* this analogy, >> but I can't think of a better one--like one of those >> fire-and-brimstone preachers [ ] kitten flashes on elmer gantry as done by burt lancaster and chokes on her pepsi again. -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!firesong.demon.co.uk!firesong ~From: Firesong ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Truth, and Consequences. ~Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 20:31:06 +0100 Organization: SPand Enterprises ~Lines: 71 Distribution: world Message-ID: ~References: <50vkak$j60_001@ipt.aol.com> <513j9j$ejt@zot.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: firesong.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: firesong.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 1.12 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160354 Firesong notes that Leslie spake thusly. >On Sun, 08 Sep 96 23:19:48 GMT in alt.callahans, >The Gentleman said: >: >: "That, at least online, Carl was not a nice guy who sometimes acted like >: an asshole. He was a mean, nasty, son of a bitch that did nice things >: sometimes. If you didn't make him mad. If you conformed to his >: standards of posting. If you never, ever, said he was flat-out wrong." > >"That last, at least, is untrue. If you said he was wrong on a matter >of fact, and backed it up with solid proof, he backed down. Matters >of personal interpretation, however, were another matter entirely. The >first part above is a matter of personal interpretation." > Yeah, but he would quote his opinion as fact. I left the telesales thread, and the gun thread for that reason alone. He was not capable of acknowledging that there could be another opinion. I was attacked for stating that _in my opinion_ telesales was not enough of a nuisance to be worth insults or even raised blood pressure. I was called (if I remember rightly) a moron for daring to suggest that anyone would feel that way. Speaker must have been much further down the route to telepathy than most of us here, that he could tell me so accurately how _I_ felt about something. Re some of the other points. In his last argument with me, Speaker removed my comments on certain points, without acknowledgement. This caused a change in the emphasis of the remaining part of the sentence, completely removed from the original, and much more open to ridicule. I responded by posting the original paragraph(s). He cut them again and continued to ridicule. And, in my admittedly limited knowledge of Speaker, I never saw his admissions of fault. I saw him leave a post, just stop posting when it appeared he was wrong, but I never saw him admit fault with anything other than what I would consider 'trivial' grammatical strucure. I appreciate your view on his view of what he was doing. I said at the time, and will say again, that his tactics would not work as he wanted on me. They would not educate me on the rightness of his attitude, or argument. Only on the futility of arguing with him. As I consider my time too important to be spent in futile battles, (I leave that to those with more idealism than my poor self), that would require walking away from the argument. But how do you leave an argument with someone who, when roused, will carry his points, valid or not, into anywhere you go? I did not have him do this to me, but I did see him carrying the argument into formerly quiet threads. Speaker remains, for me, a talented, intelligent, gifted man. But he did appear to tar all with the same brush. He appeared incapable of altering his approach, if he didn't persuade you the first time, he repeated himself BUT LOUDER. (This BTW is one of the thing we British are always getting told off for by our continental aquaintances, if they don't understand, speak louder and clearer, any fool understands English.) Firesong > >Leslie. -- "It's not unknown for Men to use sex to get what they want." - Daphne "How can we use sex to get what we want? Sex _IS_ what we want." - Frasier Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!cs.utk.edu!utk.edu!dialup03.utm.edu!jilkey From: Jill Gillham Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 10 Sep 1996 18:57:23 GMT Organization: Grand Rapids Freenet Lines: 27 Distribution: world Message-ID: <514dmj$6a5@gaia.ns.utk.edu> References: <50p2ep$ac9@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <512fko$njh@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <5143d8$haa@scipio.cyberstore.ca> <514875$rf5@izzy4.izzy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup03.utm.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Nuntius 2.0.4_68K X-XXMessage-ID: X-XXDate: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:00:20 GMT Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160364 Jill walks in for the first time in a while, and gets an IBC cream soda from Mike. "It's kinda weird. The first post I ever made here was a follow up to one of Speaker's rants. He never really said anything back. Little did I know what I was getting into...." "Now back from abend, I find out he's gone. It's always bothered me when people try to classify others by a word or phrase or two, and I'll admit it's something I slip into myself sometimes. A lot of times, Carl came across as a real ass to me. Then, he'd do something like the giving blood thread, or add to the adverbs cascade, or post a plaque for a scientist that was so darn eloquent that someone reposted it so that those killfiling Carl could have a read." "To Speaker, who reminded just how darn complex the human mind could be!" +CRASH+ Jill Gillham jilkey@grfn.org http://www.grfn.org/~jilkey "Vir, intelligence has nothing to do with politics."-Londo Mollari Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.iadfw.net!David From: elcabalero@aol.com (The Gentleman) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Truth, and Consequences. Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 15:53:26 GMT Organization: White Knight Consulting Lines: 359 Message-ID: <514a1u$9oq@library.airnews.net> References: <50vkak$j60_001@ipt.aol.com> <513j9j$ejt@zot.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.121.14.131 X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 X-No-Archive: Yes Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160360 In article <513j9j$ejt@zot.io.org>, deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) wrote: }On Sun, 08 Sep 96 23:19:48 GMT in alt.callahans, }The Gentleman said: }: }: "That, at least online, Carl was not a nice guy who sometimes acted like }: an asshole. He was a mean, nasty, son of a bitch that did nice things }: sometimes. If you didn't make him mad. If you conformed to his }: standards of posting. If you never, ever, said he was flat-out wrong." } }"That last, at least, is untrue. If you said he was wrong on a matter }of fact, and backed it up with solid proof, he backed down. Matters }of personal interpretation, however, were another matter entirely. The }first part above is a matter of personal interpretation." "I probably should have put a disclaimer at the top, instead of the bottom. And been more clear, this is how Carl seemed to the people that didn't like him. What about the second part?" } }: "All this 'noble seeker after truth' crap is just that, crap." } }"No it isn't, not *entirely*. That was his *ideal*." "And if he couldn't get any closer than that, where did he get off?" } }: "He treated someone like an idiot, called her a moron, and told her to }: fuck off. But, that's okay, because she was acting like a bimbo. BULLSHIT! }: Last time I heard something like that, my sister was explaining why it was }: okay that my brother-in-law was beating her, because he only did it when she }: made him mad." } }"If you're talking about kitten here, please do remember, she very often }attacked him *first*, and she gave as good as she got, too. Perhaps }kitten believes in the 'sticks and stones' adage--? If she wasn't damaged }by what he did, there is *NO COMPARISON* with the analogy of a wife }excusing a beating. (I hope your sister is OUT of that mess!) "I still think Carl was wrong. I still think he was being abusive. But I can't save people from themselves, and when the 'victim' starts defending him, what can I do?" "My sister did get loose, the day he hit my niece in front of her. Of course, he also made the mistake of doing it in front of me, so she had the time he spent in the hospital to firm up her resolve. Back then, the only effective tranquilizer for me in that kind of situation was beating an unconscious body for 5 or 10 minutes." } }"Please note that I personally agreed with his *flames* in about 5% of the }cases he used them. I agreed he was *right* in about 90% of the cases." "And I'm saying that his being right in his facts is almost irrelevant. I'm talking about the emotional impact he had." } }: "He intimidated his friends, forcing them to conform with his value }: system, or he would get digusted with them and call them names. But, that's }: okay, because it really was what they thought, anyway. BULLSHIT! } }"You're trying to claim it *wasn't* really what they thought? Are you a }mindreader, or something? Please: don't generalize from your own }sensitivity to insults, and conclude others must have been similarly }affected. Cuz it tain't necessarily so. "You never, once, chose not to disagree with him because you didn't want to deal with the possible reaction? You can't see any reason why somebody else might have felt that way?" } }[...] } }: "He emasculated his allies, refusing to allow them to question his }: tactics, unloading a barrage of abuse if they so dared. } }"EXCUSE ME? You must've misread all that email that he and I exchanged. }Oh, wait....you never did SEE the email he and I exchanged. This is }bullshit. You must've missed the posts I made where I disagreed with }him, too. Of course, you weren't *here* to SEE what actually went on..." "And perhaps I wasn't speaking of you. You might notice, I deliberately did not mention any names, and only one case can be traced to the person involved." } }: But, that's okay, }: because he was just being very direct. BULLSHIT! 'Your honor, I beat my }: kids, but only because I want them to behave.'" } }"Words on a computer monitor have *NO COMPARISON* to a physical beating. }This is over-reacting of the worst sort. It was okay *with me*, because }I didn't GIVE a shit if he ever flamed me or not. It did not cause me }hurt or damage of ANY kind. Can you comprehend that, I wonder--?" "Can you comprehend the impact on those that it did bother? Of *course* you could deal with it, you stuck around. I doubt I'm the only one who felt as I did. Perhaps many did. Perhaps I recieved email from bystanders *you* didn't read." } }: "He claimed that analogies like these were invalid, because there was no }: physical presence involved. BULLSHIT! He was an expert at finding out what }: would hurt people, emotionally, and using it to maximum effect. And in }: all of these examples, the emotional aspects are the significant }: factor, not the element of physical presence." } }"IF you were afraid of insults, yes. What about everyone--the vast }majority--who WEREN'T afraid of them, but merely disliked them? "Afraid? No. Intensely disliked? Yes. Afraid of a person who would use them so casually and regularly, with no concern for their impact? Yes." } }"And I find this ironic in the extreme. *I* had thought he was generally }perceived as 'not understanding other people very well.' And yet you }paint him as an expert at analysis, so expert that he could zero in on }weaknesses? He hit your weakness *by accident*, UT. He wasn't treating }you any differently than he'd treated many many others before you. He }was just following true to his normal patterns. "He hit a lot of people's weaknesses 'by accident'. He wasn't good at figuring them out through empathy, he was good at knowing when he'd hit a nerve." } }"AND I FUCKING TRIED TO MAKE HIM STOP, TOO." "I know you did. And I truly appreciate the effort. As I told Zaph, I am not attacking you. I'm just trying to cut through the rationalistic crap that Carl used to hide the *results* of what he was doing." } }: "That he insulted them isn't subject to question, he insulted almost }: everybody, eventually. That he hounded them? He followed me around for a }: month straight in here, posting a insulting reply to nearly every post }: I made, } }"And agreed with you civilly in at least a *few* others..." "By what ratio? And with what tone when he did? I remember, and civil is stretching it. 'I am amazed that someone so incredibly stupid in general could get this right, but..." } }: even though he knew he was in my killfile. He threw a gratuitous }: insult of me into almost every post he made in other threads, so that }: his chances of being quoted by someone I was reading were as high as }: possible. I think I can safely say he hounded me. That he lied? He }: would repeatedly crop out half a paragraph, then insist that I had made }: a assertion without proof, when the proof WAS IN THE HALF HE CUT OUT! } }"Believe it or not, he had a reason for doing that. A rationale, anyway. }I won't bother going into it, but, it wasn't devoid of logic, to him. }That was the problem--I *felt* something was wrong with his logic there, }but I didn't know *what* was wrong, logic not being my strongest suit. }I did eventually figure it out: that it didn't *matter* if he had }a reason--the *result* was still the same, taking someone out-of- }context. And a difference that makes no difference *is* no difference. }I had planned to bring that up to him....and then he went off the net. "It would have made no difference, he was taken to task in the 'Hypocrite' threads, and refused to get to the issue at all." } }"But, I'll tell you this: I caught him doing it to Archangel, and I }*posted* 'Cut it out, when you do that, it makes you look stupid.' }Oh yes. So subservient of me, no? So fearful of his reaction! And....he }emailed a polite explanation, which I'd already known beforehand would }*be* his explanation. That was rather my point in posting: to get him to }respond, to explain, in a post. To my surprise, AFAIK, he never *did* }follow up to that post of mine. He let it stand. Maybe my point sank }home, after all..." "Maybe it did. Future actions might have shown." } }: Then, when I posted the original paragraph, and showed that the proof }: was there, HE WOULD DO IT AGAIN, AND CALL *ME* A LIAR!" } }"I'd have to see what you actually said...he had a *very* annoying }habit of taking people dead literally. If there was something *above* }the proof he objected to, sometimes he *would* stop at that point, }until his objection was answered. Stubborn, he was. Very. "John may remember. Shpark might. Randolph might. Red Bear might. My records don't go back that far, but my memory does." } }"THIS DOES NOT MEAN YOU *DESERVED* TO BE FLAMED, BY ANY STRETCH OF THE }IMAGINATION. It *only* means he found something wrong, somewhere, }and it seemed to him that you were insisting *he* was wrong to say }you were wrong. *That* would set him off--if he actually *did* have }some sort of leg to stand on, and he knew it." "Then he should have stood his ground, instead of 'scream and leap'." } }: UT again pauses, breathing hard and flushed. With obvious effort, he }: calms himself, then continues. } }"Here, have another beer..." } "Thanks." }[...] } }: And, at }: the same time, reinterpreting your words into something it was obvious you }: hadn't meant, and insist that was not only what you said, but what you }: believed. With no chance of explanation, revision, or qualification. If you }: tried, he would just continue the conversation without you, demolishing the }: position you never took, insulting you for having taken it, and calling }: you a liar for having denied it. He wouldn't follow the rules he set }: for other people, that sounds like cheating to me." } }"Stuff like this makes me nuts, UT. I want so badly to be able to }*read* the originals of what you're talking about. Often I saw }miscommunication at the root of his flamewars. I have no way to }judge whether or not he *really* screwed up, and invented something, }or whether he was just taking you or someone else literally, and }you didn't realize that's what he was doing." "You have read the originals. Same time he did, near enough. That was also part of the 'Hypocrite' threads. As for taking us literally, does that explain why he would ignore any qualifying remarks, and refuse to believe we meant something different?" "Once again, communication requires a message, a transmitter, and a compatibly tuned reciever. Carl would deliberately mistune his." } }"I know for a fact he *did* screw up, that once, remember? When he }jumped your case for simply remarking on the fact people talked }about him in RL sometimes as much as in VR... } }"And I called him on it, and he shut up. No argument, at all. I }thought it was fun to make him shut up, actually. Quite the }achievement, considering. But I have a warped sense of fun... } }"And now...I wonder, if I *could* have affected him more, or more often. }If I hadn't been thinking his mind was made up, so what was the point?" "It's a thought. How many times would he have let you pull him up short?" } }[...] } }: "Truth does not need protection. The truth is the truth, and remains so, }: regardless. If all he wanted was the truth, he simply needed to look for it. }: If I say the sky is purple with yellow polka-dots, it doesn't change color }: just because nobody disagrees with me. And if someone voices a potentially }: dangerous falsehood, it is not necessary to viciously attack them for it. A }: simple correction, with an exact explanation of why, is all that's necessary. }: Nothing more. If Carl's methods were appropriate to Carl's ends, then }: Carl's ends were more than just the truth." } }"He wanted things he saw as wrong *stopped* and stopped cold. And that's }what his tactics revealed. And also that he was one *seriously* }opinionated s.o.b.. But I knew the job was dangerous when I took it..." "Then he is fully responsible. And I am discussing his impact more than his motivations. His impact was far in excess of what simple truth required." } }: "No. Carl was not a noble seeker of truth. Carl was a bully, using his }: superior flaming skills to make sure that everyone walked on eggshells around }: him. That some of you were his friends does not change this fact. That he }: was more than that does not change it." } }"His flames made certain that nobody anywhere would mistake him for }agreeing with whatever he was arguing with. That was his one purely }selfish motive." "And to try to intimidate them into shutting up '--and not to let bullshit persist in my presence.' Direct quote. Except *he* got to decide what was bullshit, and in areas not subject to logical disproof there was no appeal." } }: "Here's a question for you. If this post is 100% incorrect, if }: nothing in it applies to Carl or anyone else, can it hurt anyone? By }: Carl's strictly rational rules?" } }"Yes, actually, it can cause hurt. Because you're posting in front of }an *audience*. And if I don't speak up to correct the things that seem to }misinterpret *me*, at least, then there's the chance that someone might }take your view of things as being the correct one. That could have an }effect on how they view me in the future. That bothers me. A lot." "I never mentioned your name. Actually, nothing in it was aimed at you in particular, although you were sometimes part of a group I was thinking of, or an example. If you felt like it was aimed at you, maybe that says something." } }: "I am not making this post to hurt anyone. Some of the things I }: wrote may sting, a little. I am writing this post because I am tired }: of so many people acting like Carl's victims asked for everything they }: got. That if they had just gone along with Carl, met his standards, }: they never would have had a problem." } }"There is to me NO connection between 'not meeting his standards' and }thus *deserving* or asking for what they got. True, a few people }here and there *did* really strike me as 'asking for it' (not to }mention deserving it). But only a very very few. And what applies }to discussions in *other* newsgroups very obviously does NOT apply }all that well here in a.c., either. "Yes. I tend to be more agressive in 'factual' newsgroups too. Carl granted few exceptions, it had to be pure fluff." } }: "He had no right. To say that we should have knuckled under is to insult }: us, to say that we were the ones to blame, and only us. And that simply is }: not true. What kind of logic says that Carl's habits were merely a posting }: quirk, but failure to meet his standards was justification for anything he }: did?" } }"This ignores one fact: he was here, and he wasn't going anywhere. That }was the reality that *had* to be dealt with." "That is exactly the fact it is pointing out. He was okay, but we weren't. He had to be dealt with, but we were disposable. His attitude was acceptable, even though it wouldn't accept us." } }: "Seems suspiciously like the logic that blames rape victims for }: tempting a man, who only did what his drives made him do." } }"If a woman could hit the 'n' key on her newsreader and make a rapist }vanish, I'd *almost* agree with you." "A difference in degree, not kind. But I never agreed with Carl that a great difference in degree was not just as significant as one in kind, so I'll give you that. Problem is, making Carl vanish also made 90% of a.c vanish." } }: "Nor am I insulting those of you who got along with Carl. I am simply }: saying that each of you formed a separate peace with him, and did so through }: some form of appeasement, because that was the only way he'd have it." } }"Dave, you're missing a *few* facts, here and there. Read this: } }----------------------------------------------------------------------- }Subject: Re: Stamp Collecting } }"Tell me again, about how he 'intimidated' me, and about how I worked so }hard to 'appease' him, UT." } }"The ONLY thing I worked hard at was my *word choices*. Period. And }remembering to throw in lots and lots of qualifers. "You posted with a constant awareness of his reaction. Did he worry much about yours, ahead of time?" } I do believe I }got away with a lot because I simply said 'it seems to me that...' }indicating I wasn't trying to state something as a *fact*, but that }it was what I *thought* was a fact. And there's a difference." "And did Carl grant anywhere near that degree of latitude? Did he often say 'I think' or 'It seems that'? Not hardly. He almost exclusively used the declarative." } }"This is 'knuckling under'--? I called it 'speaking his language.'" } "I call it walking on eggshells, being intimidated." UT Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!mr.net!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!Arsmith From: Arsmith@cris.com (him.) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 11 Sep 1996 07:18:57 GMT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 70 Message-ID: <515p51$hoa@herald.concentric.net> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50qf46$6bk@news.orst.edu> <5101m9$7ng@nadine.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: voyager.cris.com Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160444 In article <5101m9$7ng@nadine.teleport.com>, Randolph Fritz wrote: >In article <50qf46$6bk@news.orst.edu>, Unbeliever wrote: >>"Speaker to Minerals was an intentional giver of pain." >>"He did it *HERE*." "So have I, and several other Patrons who are here right now." Al says, quietly. "He did it on the grandest scale, and probably had the solidest rationale, is all." "You know, I was in a newsgroup once where those likely to cause other people pain posted a disclaimer at the front of their posts saying, in effect: 'don't read this if you aren't up to it.' That place was absolutely fanatical about avoiding pain, and had worse flamewars than I've seen anywhere." >"And, you know, he apparently wasn't caring for himself before he >died--that's the truth in the glucose figures from the autopsy. "You can, if you think hard enough, come up with an alternate explination or two for those glucose figures." > Hell >of a way to go. I'm sure he had reasons which, if asked, he would >defend at great length "I also remember a time he posted about having screwed up in his diabetes management and asked us all to call him on it if he started acting wierd (no cracks please) and help him monitor his blood sugar." >--yet I wonder if, in his quick harsh >judgements, he judged himself, and found himself wanting." "And THIS is so totally unlike either Carl OR Speaker I'm surprised you even thought of it." "Y'know," Alan says, settling in a chair and getting a pensive look, "I've been perusing the speaker threads, and screaming to myself 'The poor bastard's DEAD, can we quit fighting the war now?' "And it wasn't until a couple of posts back that it occured to me: no. The Perrenial Speaker War is going to be with us for a long time to come, and Speaker's impact on the Place will be felt for an even longer time, possibly as long as the Place lasts. And, perhaps, just maybe, the changes he caused were actually adaptive ones, and the place as it was was pointed towards a dead end. "Yes, he hurt people. Yes, he stood for an ideal that was greater than himself and never swerved from defending it. And no, we're never going to come to an agreement on whether he was 'good' or 'bad', 'cause people simply can't be summed up that way." Al gets out of his place, grabs his drink, and heads for the chalkline. "I spent a *long* time, using various stratagems, trying to stop the Perrenial Speaker War, for a while, when he went missing, I had hopes that he would STAY gone and that would be the end of it. But, I prophesy, this conversation will come up again, and again, and again, so long as those of us who were here while he was last. I'll probably jump in it, on one side or the other, or both." He muses a while, then drains his glass. "To the Ghosts of the Battlefield. May we someday find rest." Instead of throwing his glass into the fireplace, he sails it out an X-window, into the parking lot, where it shatters on the asphalt. Big Al. What an incredible bummer. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs1.bu.edu!mjmh From: mjmh@bu.edu (Michael Holmes) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Date: 10 Sep 1996 18:44:19 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 42 Message-ID: <514cu3$ibj@news.bu.edu> References: <322a50fb.0@eden.adam.com.au> <50hn8g$ktn@news1.infinet.com> <50k3hs$b47@news1.infinet.com> <50s2s2$7ve@apollo.csd.net> <50tmnc$i6g_003@ipt.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs1.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160376 The Gentleman (elcabalero@aol.com) wrote: : "I've said this elsewhere, and I'll say it again: What gave Carl the : right to insist that everyone conform to his standard of 'intelligent' : posting? /* quietly glances at UT, and gives him a wave and a hopefully- sympathetic smile. "Honestly, UT? Nothing gave him the right. Aside from his right to free speech, so he could SAY whatever he wanted." "But just as none of us could insist he conform to *our* standards, Carl could not, truly, 'insist' we conform to his." "Yeah, he could be... abrasive... if he felt you *weren't* conforming to his standards, but that still doesn't mean you had to change, if you felt there was no value in changing to his standards." : The only answer I ever got from him was 'because I say so, : shit-for-brains.' (Paraphrased)" : "Dammit, the bastard's dead, and he still has me looking over my shoulder. : I am NOT amused by the implications, thank you." "Only if you let him. I know it may sound harsh, or you may even think I'm 'out of touch', but the truth is that he _never_ had any influence over you that you didn't allow him to have." "If there are parts of that influence that you feel serve you, then, by all means, keep them." "But if you _don't_ like some of the remaining influence on you... you can let go of it. It isn't always *easy*, and it's not exactly the same for every person, but it is possible." -- /* -> Mike Holmes, Happiness Patrol // Happiness Will Prevail! \\ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Few things are needful to make the wise man happy, but nothing satisfies the fool; and this is the reason why so many of mankind are miserable." -- Duc Francois de La Rochefoucauld Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.iadfw.net!David From: elcabalero@aol.com (The Gentleman) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Truth, and Consequences. Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 15:09:39 GMT Organization: White Knight Consulting Lines: 20 Message-ID: <516rrq$553@library.airnews.net> References: <50vkak$j60_001@ipt.aol.com> <515bj5$co4@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.121.14.131 X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 X-No-Archive: Yes Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:160507 In article <515bj5$co4@news.bu.edu>, mjmh@bu.edu (Michael Holmes) wrote: }The Gentleman (elcabalero@aol.com) wrote: } }: "Nor am I insulting those of you who got along with Carl. I am simply }: saying that each of you formed a separate peace with him, and did so through }: some form of appeasement, because that was the only way he'd have it." } }"No. UT, this is dead wrong. Just as it isn't right for people }to tell you that it was YOUR fault Carl slammed you, it isn't }right for YOU to tell others what THEIR friendship with Carl was }based on. You aren't them. Their experience isn't yours. Don't }extrapolate your pain and troubles on everyone else." } "And you're a hundred percent correct. I should not have painted them with such a wide brush. Many people *did* have legitimate friendships with Carl, and I should not have implied they didn't. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa." UT Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 18 Sep 1996 12:52:00 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 65 Message-ID: <51or9g$8ut@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> <511t2u$7a6@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:161305 Michael Holmes (mjmh@bu.edu) wrote: : For the record, /* seems once again cursed to see fairly clearly *both* : sides of the issue. He certainly knows what Leslie and John and : kitten and Jez have alluded to. But he also thinks that Ilene and : Zaph and Unbe and others have made legitimate points, which perhaps : have not been considered as carefully as they might have been. Shrug. That depends on what you mean by "being considered". I can consider, have considered, and still consider all of their points, and think many of them are quite valid. However, it takes many points to see a pattern, and singular points aren't necessarily helpful. I have made many similar points to those that have been mentioned, and I try not to contradict anyone when they make such a point. But I do try to clarify. . . especially since there won't be any closure gained from additional insight into Carl Lydick. I suppose the easiest thing to do now would probably be say "hate him; he was an unmitigated asshole (and besides, he's dead, what can your hate do to him now?)" But I can't do that. Especially not when I think that the reasons for the hate are wrong. Unbe says he was an "intentional giver of pain". I don't think he was, but I certainly agree he could be seen that way. He certainly was a reckless pain-causer. Ilene says he was a hypocrite; in some ways, I have to agree, though I can't condemn him for that because I don't know the situation. I know his last few months here had been consisting mostly of flames about him; if that made him extremely defensive, I really can't blame him. Yes, there were enough comments about how "speaker was nothing but a seeker of truth" that would happen during his arguments. I notice that few, if any, such comments are surfacing now, making me wonder how deep any such beliefs were. One or two people saying that during any given argument is enough to make people THINK that there were always a lot of people who felt that way. . . but the fact is, I don't think there were ever that many. Ilene's biggest stated concern was that people were not looking at Speaker as a normal person; they were looking at him as an idol. She wanted to make sure that people didn't do that. Shrug. But at the same time, I didn't want people to see him as being a completely non-understandable monster. . . It's hard, if not impossible, to defend someone too weakly. One thing you'll learn in chess, or in most competitive games: if you want a draw, play for a win. Saying "Speaker is an asshole, but he's not too much of one" is a sure way to let him be painted as a monster; it'll just make him a monster that at least one person pities. : "All of these people _need_ to find a way to get past this pain. Suggesting : that their *experiences* of Speaker are wrong or their own faults or even : *seeming* to suggest this may be extremely unhelpful. Nod. But allowing them to think that their own picture of Speaker is 100% accurate can be as damaging. For some, directed malice is harder to deal with than directed apathy-mixed-with-disgust. For some, of course, knowing that Speaker didn't care if he caused hurt, even if he wasn't specifically TRYING for hurt, is worse. But at least knowing which it really was allows you to settle your vision. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 18 Sep 1996 13:04:33 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 31 Message-ID: <51os11$8ut@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> <50qf46$6bk@news.orst.edu> <511uk0$7a6@news.bu.edu> <51chc3$gtf@news1.infinet.com> <51mkef$cqu@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:161307 Michael Holmes (mjmh@bu.edu) wrote: : John Palmer (jpalmer@infinet.com) wrote: : : Michael Holmes (mjmh@bu.edu) wrote: : But there has been a... 'myth' developing, : that I have heard repeated by a few people... that Carl 'always' : replied politely *first*, and only got nasty in a second response, : if he felt he needed to make a second response." : "That clearly isn't true. More than that, it feeds into the perception : that people who got flamed by Carl 'deserved' it, because it assumes : that he _always_ tried to get people to understand politely in his : first attempt, and 'only' resorted to nastier language if people : 'failed' to grasp his original, more polite, response." Absolutely. I know better than many that he didn't always "fire a warning shot" politely first. : "And... hmmm, how to put this. This seems to me to be a worthwhile : point to consider, but it also seems almost to be a case where you : are asking people to give Carl some 'slack' that he often seemed : unable or unwilling to give to others." No, I'm not asking anyone to give him slack; I am asking people to hate him only for what he was, not for something he wasn't. If he'd been a flasher, I wouldn't want people to call him a rapist. When Carl flamed someone for something they didn't say or didn't express, I tried (when I saw it, which happened less frequently in the last few months he was here) to point that out. When people flame Carl for something he didn't say or didn't express, I do the same. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!comp.vuw.ac.nz!ak.netlink.co.nz!auckland.ac.nz!gate!clare From: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Clare West) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Date: 18 Sep 1996 22:28:51 GMT Organization: University of Auckland Lines: 22 Sender: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz Message-ID: <51pt33$25v@scream.auckland.ac.nz> References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> <511t2u$7a6@news.bu.edu> <515eb9$18t@lex.zippo.com> <51afsk$qlt@news.bu.edu> <51b14b$q1@lex.zippo.com> Reply-To: clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.cs.auckland.ac.nz X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) X-Original-Host: cs20.cs.auckland.ac.nz X-Authenticated: Sentinel-NNTP v0.9 on gate.cs.auckland.ac.nz Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:161434 I have never really been a regular on alt.callahans and it must be a long time (2 years?) since I was around here...I'm back *very* briefly. Why am I back? Because I saw a crosspost to a unix group from some one who obviously really hated Carl. StM had an impact on my life, as did many of the regulars here. I can't say I read all his posts, or agreed with all he had to say, but watching the way he was treated here has helped me when dealing with similar characters on other newsgroups. I don't have a lot of articles saved from this newsgroup but one of them was from him. So I am a little sad that he has gone. That usenet has lost one of its real characters. Someone to remind us that there are people on the other end of the wire, even if sometimes it is because of the reactions they cause in the people around them. clare -- clare@cs.auckland.ac.nz OWotRFA http://clare.cs.auckland.ac.nz/ Thinking of Maud you forget everything else. -- hack v1.0.3 Who was that Maud person anyway? -- nethack v3.1.0 Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!vance From: vance@alumnae.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle) Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,sci.environment,alt.folkfore.science Subject: Re: Carl J. Lydick Memorial Page Date: 20 Sep 1996 00:48:08 GMT Organization: Caltech Alumni Association Lines: 27 Message-ID: <51spk8$kc3@gap.cco.caltech.edu> References: <51cb2g$bc8@hobbes.cc.uga.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: alumnae.caltech.edu Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:161551 comp.os.vms:155948 sci.skeptic:212057 sci.environment:114276 In article <51cb2g$bc8@hobbes.cc.uga.edu>, Doug Ahern wrote: >http://www.cosmic.uga.edu/flame/ > >The Eternal Flame: A Carl J Lydick Memorial > >please stop by and see highlights of Carl's last three months on the >net. Included is Carl's last ever flame in a newsgroup. This page >was assembled in memory of one of the most colorful individuals to >ever hit a "reply" key in a newsreader. If you're interested in seeing what the person behind the newsreader looked like, I've put together a page with some (albeit 20 year old) pictures of Carl Lydick from the 1976 Caltech yearbook. http://alumni.caltech.edu/~vance/carl_lydick.html Until recently, I wasn't aware that he and I had shared the Caltech undergraduate "experience", and it IS an experience. I found him mentioned in few yearbooks from before my time. I came to Caltech as a student seven years after Carl did. As an undergrad, I worked in the Space Telescope WF/PC group, the same group that Carl worked with... seven years after I started. What a strange world.... -- Vance Haemmerle vance@alumni.caltech.edu