Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!inter2.interstice.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!news.us.world.net!ns2.mainstreet.net!news.PBI.net!usenet ~From: The Polymath ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 23:10:55 -0700 Organization: Polymath Enterprises ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3223E2EF.75C7@pacbell.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> ~Reply-To: polymath@pacbell.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-206-171-250-86.vntrcs.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) I've passed the word about StM to Soprano, who's been too busy to be much of a presence here of late. She sends her condolences and will check in as soon as her computer is set up again (she just moved to a new apartment). She wanted to know if anyone had heard anthing about funeral plans. Some of us in the area who knew Carl personally would want to attend. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP) polymath@pacbell.net <<<===PLEASE NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS http://www.babcom.com/polymath <<<===AND NEW HOME PAGE URL (818) 882-6309 Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!homer30.u.washington.edu!bastet ~From: "K. Ohanlon" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 02:27:26 -0700 Organization: University of Washington ~Lines: 40 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <4vu4r8$3ai@babylon5.babcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: homer30.u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NNTP-Posting-User: bastet In-Reply-To: <4vu4r8$3ai@babylon5.babcom.com> Crow blinks for a moment when she wanders back into the Place. There seem to be more folks in here than she's used to. They aren't staying long, and all seem to have rather sad expressions on their faces, as do many of the regulars. As she passes by the bar, she discreetly asks Mike what's going on. The big Irishman is looking less than completely jolly himself. As he shares his distressing news, Crow's eyes widen and she goes slightly pale for a moment. "Oh, no," is all that she can manage to whisper, before she orders a small Bacardi and Coke. She stands back for a moment, listening to all the other patrons, past and present, who make toasts to honor the controversial kzin. She hesitates for a moment, then also steps forward to say her peace. "I only knew Carl Lydick as Speaker-to-Minerals. I never met the man face to face, and the first time he and I ever 'spoke' was during a flamewar I inadvertantly started by dumping a bunch of rum on him as a joke, and then had the bad grace to get scared about the infamous kzinti's temper and apologize." Crow smiles wryly. "Twas for the apology that I got flamed." "Can't say as I always agreed with Speaker. Sometimes his posts made me mad enough to snarl, but even then I couldn't deny that the guy did stand up for himself. That he had exacting standards for everyone, including himself. I may not have necessarily liked him, but I did have a great deal of grudging respect for him." "I had been gone from here for awhile because of various things in RL, and when I finally returned, it was to an alt.callahans lacking Speaker. Oddly enough, i missed seeing his posts. Yes, even the ones that made me furious. It saddens me more to learn that he won't be posting here ever again." With that, Crow drains her glass, and sends it over to settle amid the flames. 'It seems fitting enough, since that was generally where StM was to be found most times anyways.' -Kelley, aka Crow. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!agate!ames!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: glo@io.com (Gareth L Owen) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 03:50:33 -0500 Organization: Illuminati Online ~Lines: 55 Message-ID: <50118p$i8k@bermuda.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com> <32238039.4E1E@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bermuda.io.com In article <32238039.4E1E@rand.nidlink.com>, Looking Wolf wrote: > >The wolf steps out of his corner and accepts a drink from Mike. > >"I did not know Speaker-to-Minerals well, nor did I know his Real Life >self at all. However, I have read enough of his posts to know that he >was a good, if troubled, soul. > >"There is a truly profound sense of loss that accompanies this news, one >that, for me, is greater than can be explained by the passing of one >whom I knew all too little. > >"In his absence, Callahan's was changed. With his death, Callahan's is >diminished." > >The wolf pauses for a moment, and looks at the chalk line beneath his >feet. When he raises his head again, the right side of his face has >been painted black. > >"Carl Lydick, Speaker-to-Minerals, had I known you better, I think that >I would have called you friend. You are missed." The wolf's empty >glass joins the many shattering into the fireplace. > >"Be well, my friend. May your path lead you to the happiness you seek; >may your spirit be always in beauty. May your spirit be always in >beauty." > >...Looking Wolf The Stranger descends silently from the rafters, places a single coin on the bar in exchange for a Bacardi and Coke and walks to the chalkline. "It's been a long time since I've been able to post here, I'm sorry my return has come to such bad news." He drains the glass "Looking wolf has said it all, I guess. We are lessened for his loss. He had intellectual integrity of a magnitude I've rarely seen." "Wherever you are, I hope you've found the Truth that was so important to you. goodbye Speaker-to-Minerals. Goodbye Carl." The Stranger places his glass, unbroken, on the fire. The Stranger -- Gareth L Owen |\_/| Roleplayer, karate man, shadowrunner glo@io.com (o o) Itinerant mountaineer and cynical idealist finger for PGP key \_/ http://www.io.com/~glo/ "Think for yourself - that means YOU citizen!" Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zap.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 05:05:18 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 30 Message-ID: <50124e$og8@zap.io.org> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <5006er$pss@starman.rsn.hp.com> <3223CDFC.550@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zap.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:41:32 -0700 in alt.callahans, The Polymath said: : Richard A. Schumacher wrote: : : >He'll be back. God will grow weary of Carl loudly pointing out all : >of His mistakes. : : ROTFL through tears! (-; : : Thanks. I needed that. Leslie, still laughing at an image of StM *demanding* answers from God, seconds Polymath's thanks. "StM said, not too long ago, that his idea of a perfect afterlife would be a place where 'you get to keep learning!'--a place where there are always new questions to find answers to, always new challenges. (Not that he believed in an afterlife at all, or the idea of a 'soul.' Strictly as an exercise in imagination.) "What do you suppose the world would be like, if God said, 'okay, you think *you* could do better? Be my guest...'" Leslie. We'd all have to learn calculus, *that's* for sure... -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp.earthlink.net!usenet ~From: BetNoir ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:41:22 -0700 Organization: BetNoir Pirate Wenching Academy ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <322468A2.42A6@earthlink.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <500gb1$29f@nntp.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: max4-vgd-ca-58.earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; U) I wish I could say that I KNEW Carl/Speaker....but I can't. Hell, I can't even claim that I was one of his flamees - I never did get to the exaulted level of 'asshole,' 'moron,' or 'shit-for-brains.' I even actually once wrested a public apology out of him for a posting he made in error that I corrected him on. So all that is left is that I must wonder why Carl and StM were such diametric opposites. StM was the one who ranted and raved, and yet I always had the feeling that the apology post was from Carl instead. Nevertheless....he DID believe in one thing that I wholeheartedly agree with. Get yer facts straight before posting! And if we can all do that, mayhaps StM's rants will not have been for nothing... BetN --- "I am a virus....and I am unclean.... I am not part of God's well-oiled machine...." - D. Elfman Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.patriot.net!news ~From: Lady Cheron ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:20:03 -0700 Organization: Wargamers, Sterling VA ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <322471B3.4A3@patriot.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: th-0-7.patriot.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win16; U) Lady Cheron, arriving belatedly, hears this announcement second-hand. She awaits her turn at the chalk line. Raising her glass, she toasts "Carl Lydick, and Speaker to Minerals. Gone, but not forgotten. The Place will be quieter and a bit sadder without you. May you find peace." Her glass joins the row of others on the fireplace tiles. -- Lady Cheron ------------------------------------------------------------------- Wargamers Website is up and running! Visit us at http://www.patriot.net/users/wargamer Say "HI" to Cody! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!tezcat!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 06:45:44 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 56 Message-ID: <50180o$3sr@zot.io.org> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 27 Aug 1996 19:06:49 -0400 in alt.callahans, David P. Murphy said: : PhaseOfTheMoon quietly walks in and leans against a wall unnoticed. Not so unnoticed... : He watches and listens, astonished, to the many people who mourn : the apparent passing of Speaker. Phase has never been here before, : never even known the place existed, until he heard voices inside : as he was passing by, discussing "Carl Lydick". "He posted to comp.os.vms under the address carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu." Leslie notes. "Try searching DejaNews for his other address, lydick@sol1.gps.caltech.edu also," she adds, her voice faltering to realize that she'll never see either name on a post again... He is impressed : by the maturity of the bar's inhabitants, and is not quite sure : what to do. The only thing certain in his mind is that this was : not the desired outcome. He hesitantly clears his throat and : asks, to no one in particular, "Who knows what really happened : about his job at CalTech?" "As far as I am aware, there was only the rumor that he'd been fired, but no direct confirmation of anything. Apparently they kept the lid on it pretty tight, whatever it was." : He waits for an answer, wondering . . . did his letter to the : staff at GPS have anything to so with Carl's termination? "It seems...highly unlikely, to me, but who knows? I read a post in c.o.v. once where someone said that when he joined a VMS mailing list back in '87, about the first thing he saw was a debate over Carl's language. He's been flaming people on the net since there WAS a net. Why, suddenly, should his language become an issue major enough to fire him over, and without warning, at that? His...last...email to me spoke of things he planned to say in an upcoming post to a.c.. Whatever it was, it was not expected. "And you were scarcely the first, nor would you have been the last, to complain to his higher-ups, surely--? And besides, the rumor that we heard said it was more like 'he was spending too much time posting when he ought to have been working,' and not anything to do with his flames, anyway. And yet even that doesn't quite add up, since he's been posting like this for years and years. He told me he'd made the Top Ten by Volume of Posts to Usenet list before, and that was two years ago... "Perhaps, now that he's gone, someone will let the real story out..." Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!news.lvld.hp.com!news ~From: Randy Martens ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:50:24 -0700 Organization: The Vectra at the End of the Universe ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <322478D0.4CA4@lvld.hp.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <4vu4r8$3ai@babylon5.babcom.com> <3223B058.11AE@Titan.SFASU.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: hplvlrm1.lvld.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Wayne S Garmil wrote: > > In article <3223B058.11AE@Titan.SFASU.EDU>, > Sailor Jim wrote: > > > >P.S. Shipmates, do the man proud and hang that plaque on the back wall > >of the fireplace (on the inside, of course, to remember him every time > >you see the flames). > > You know, I *like* this suggestion. Yes, Carl's name deserves to be > added to the plaque on the moon, I'm not saying it shouldn't go there. > But having a second plaque for him, hung by the fireplace so when we > see the flames we think of Carl, that just seams VERY appropriate. I second this notion. Lets carve a plaque of a suitable fireproof matierial and put it up inside the fireplace. Perhaps we could even find a picture of Carl scowling and engrave it on the plaque! Randy -- | "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no | | basis for a system of government" ----------- M. Palin | Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!news.lvld.hp.com!news ~From: Randy Martens ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:14:30 -0700 Organization: The Vectra at the End of the Universe ~Lines: 80 Message-ID: <32247E76.5DA1@lvld.hp.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvstr$28t@boris.eden.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hplvlrm1.lvld.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) A little net fishing has produced this. I think it's Carl's last post. If anybody's got anything else, please let me know. BTW, you can see that Carl is in fine form below ;-) Randy --- B E G I N S --- ~Subject: Re: BLACK BODY RADIATION INSIDE ALL BOXES CARL. ~From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick) ~Date: 1996/06/23 Message-Id: <4qih5c$qlc@gap.cco.caltech.edu> Distribution: world ~References: <4qekct$hnh@lll-Winken.llnl.gov> <4qhaj6$9sb@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera ~Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU ~Newsgroups: sci.physics,alt.sci.physics.new-Theories,sci.astro,sci.skeptic In article , Keith Stein writes: =>=>, Keith Stein writes:- =>=>|> It seems to me therefore, that the =>=>|> background radiation is more naturally explained as the remnant of =>=>|> Olbers' radiation, rather than as a remnant of the Big Bang. = =>= "William S. Lawson" writes =>=>The problem with this is that the wavelength distribution is not =>=>right. The wavelength distribution is measured to be a blackbody =>=>spectrum to within the experimental accuracy. If the radiation were =>=>a superposition of many blackbody (stellar) spectra at different =>=>temperatures, as it would be in the Olber's scenario, we would see =>=>a very different distribution. = => Keith Stein writes:- =>=I can't see why you say that Bill. All stars give a good approximation =>=to Black Body radiation, but even if they didn't, when you shut one up =>=in a box, which is effectively what the visible universe is, then the =>=spectrum inside the box must be a be a 'perfect black body spectrum'. = = Carl J Lydick writes =>Clearly you've got a problem understanding what black body radiation is. = =IT'S YOU'VE GOT THE PROBLEM UNDERSTANDING,CARL. THE RADIATION INSIDE ANY = AND EVERY ENCLOSURE IN EQUILIBRIUM IS 'PERFECT BLACK BODY RADIATION'. So tell us, please, o magnificent moron, just what is the "enclosure" you're postulating here? Please note that this "enclosure" must have the properties that: 1) It absorbs all radiation coming from the inside, and reradiates that energy; and 2) It allows some radiation to pass through unimpeded, allowing us to observe the structure of the galaxies that are inside the enclosure. =(If you don't beleive this please look it up in a physics text book). =Now you can't show me any enclosure that's had longer to get to =equilibrium than the universe . Hence as i said, i would expect the =cosmic background radiation to be 'perfect black body radiation', =and i do know what that is, =thank you Carl. Sorry, shit-for-brains, but your analysis requires that something somewhere absorb and reradiate the energy, and you've yet to tell us what you think that something might be. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL Disclaimer: Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS. That's what I get paid for. My understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). So unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my organization responsible for it. If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it. --- E N D I T --- -- | "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no | | basis for a system of government" ----------- M. Palin | Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!tezcat!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 07:18:55 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 53 Message-ID: <5019uv$659@zot.io.org> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:40:09 -0700 in alt.callahans, The Polymath said: : Carl suffered from insulin dependent diabetes and all its attendant : consequences (pick a symptom, any symptom, he probably had it in : spades at some point). "And allergies, and asthma, and high blood-pressure, and was overweight, and smoked, and drank..." He also suffered from congestive heart failure : and was scheduled for 6x bypass surgery early this year, but changed : his mind for reasons likely known only to himself. (Supposedly, the : operation would have prolonged his life, but not improved its quality. : Carl decided it wasn't worth it). "He said that a *BIG* part of the reason for *postponing* (AFAIK) the surgery was that he was very reluctant to burden someone with the responsibility of ordering the plug to be pulled, should the surgery result in his becoming a vegetable. He didn't want to screw up the lady's life, even if it perhaps cost him his." Tears and the memory of tears fill Leslie's eyes. "Fatheaded noble...." she whispers, reliving that email conversation. : I always admired his stubborn refusal to let his infirmities interfere : with his life any more than absolutely necessary -- although it often : worsened his health to do so. He never struck me as the actively : suicidal type. "He'd talked about feeling suicidal in posts to a.c. before, though. I read one from December 1993 saying just that, as (I think?) his brother had just committed suicide. His father also took his own life. But he was a fighter, and always seemed to have an instinct for survival which kept him going..." : All in all, "illness" is the most likely cause of his passing. "If he quit taking his meds, he'd be pretty ill, alright. I can't help but wonder what being cut off from the net did to him. He had other interests outside of the net, but it *was* an integral part of his life. And he did love his VAXen, too..." "But speculation in that direction is useless. In the absence of facts and the presence of conflicting evidence, the only logical thing to do is to withhold judgement. We can't know anything unless they do an autopsy and make the results public." Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!news.utdallas.edu!news.starnet.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 09:47:17 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 65 Message-ID: <501m5l$f0h@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu A small dot climbs the steep stairs. The stairs connect the meadow to the moon. No easy way by starship this time. No speedy trip and a quick return. Linda and Robbie wait patiently near the plaque. The figure moves slowly with his burden. Step by painful step. Exercise hasn't been done by him in years. A trip of this many thousand miles takes a very long time. He appears to be carrying something. What it is, isn't exactly clear. It is heavy, very heavy, but DJ doesn't drop it or put it down for a rest. He could ask for Linda's help, but wont. He could ask for other folk's help, but wont. He would refuse help, if it was offered. Days go by. Weeks. The extremes of outer space. DJ finally arrives at the plaque. He struggles with the object. Its a plaque of gold and bronze. And upon it is written in mithril. "Good-bye Carl Speaker-To-Minerals Lydick. I will miss your friendship Sometimes we disagreed You told some great puns. And I just _know_ that Death had second thoughts by the time you were through with him ! Good-bye to someone I was Proud to call Friend !" The plaque is placed upon the lunar soil. On a small stand by itself, for Carl was one of a kind, and he stood apart, a cat who walked by himself, his wild alone. But I do know he had friends, for I am one of them. A song wanders through DJ's mind: 'softly falls the light, as the sun sits down behind the hills, a new star shines up in the sky, it waxes and wanes, much as the person whom it represents did. I will miss him, Good night my friend, Good night.' >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CRASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Dreamy Jim, Linda the Starship, and Robbie the Robot. DJ walks back down those stairs, and sits in the meadow, where the green grass grows, by his wild alone. [and if any disagree, tough.] -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!bg0l+ ~From: Bruce E Golightly ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:01:49 -0400 Organization: Administrative Computing & Info Services, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA ~Lines: 5 Distribution: world Message-ID: ~References: <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <9608270819.AA00523@192.80.10.188> To Speaker - we are diminished by your loss. Anam Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.att.com!cbgw3.att.com!news.PBI.net!usenet ~From: The Polymath ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:22:55 -0700 Organization: Polymath Enterprises ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: <32249C8F.51DF@pacbell.net> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <5019uv$659@zot.io.org> ~Reply-To: polymath@pacbell.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-206-171-250-57.vntrcs.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) Leslie wrote: >On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:40:09 -0700 in alt.callahans, The Polymath said: >:He also suffered from congestive heart failure >:and was scheduled for 6x bypass surgery early this year, but changed >:his mind for reasons likely known only to himself. ... >"He said that a *BIG* part of the reason for *postponing* (AFAIK) the >surgery was that he was very reluctant to burden someone with the >responsibility of ordering the plug to be pulled, should the surgery >result in his becoming a vegetable. He didn't want to screw up the lady's >life, even if it perhaps cost him his." ... "The lady" may wish to comment herself when she gets to this post. I can testify she was far more concerned for Carl's health than any inconvenience it might have caused her and repeatedly tried to contact him for details, paperwork, etc. While I admire his motives, I think, at the end of the day, he did her an injustice and a disservice. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP) polymath@pacbell.net <<<===PLEASE NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS http://www.babcom.com/polymath <<<===AND NEW HOME PAGE URL (818) 882-6309 Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nidlink.com!usenet ~From: Looking Wolf ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:26:52 -0700 Organization: NetLink, Inc. ~Lines: 31 Message-ID: <32249D7C.128F@rand.nidlink.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com> <4vvd7n$7i9@eagle.ais.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-25.nidlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) Roland X wrote: > > > Carl would, if he were truly dead, be rolling over in his grave over the > > self-serving weeping occuring here at this moment. You tip your vain > > and virtual glasses to yourselves: no other. Enjoy your sentimental > > trip. Carl would have none of it. Carl needed help in his present, > > not in this one. Let it be. > > Indeed he would. And if he were alive, he'd come back and roast us > all for mourning him on flimsy evidence. > As for that mourning, I'm quite certain that he knew enough about > the grieving process to know that a funeral is held for the survivors > as much as, if not more than, for the dead. We mourn for his passing > because we are dimished thereby. > And if we wish him well in whatever lies beyond, that is our business. The wolf nods. "Grief is almost always for those left behind, and there is nothing wrong with that. Knowing that one for whom you care is gone, effectively forever, is a painful, empty feeling. Just because someone is large-hearted enough to want no grief at their passing does not mean they would despise those who are hurt by it." ...Looking Wolf Sunset, and evening star, and one clear call for me. And may there be no moaning of the bar when I put out to sea. --Alfred, Lord Tennyson (title of poem and proper scansion regretfully forgotten) Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 11:02:03 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: <501qhr$h4b@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu PhaseOfTheMoon: >Phase waits at the bar, wondering if maybe the world sucks because >someone is willing to lose his job and maybe his life to stick to >his principles, wondering if that's what speaker was about, wondering >if he'll ever know the truth about speaker. Last year, he found a job possibility for me at Cal Tech. I asked hiom if I should mention he recommended me for the job. He said he didn't think it was a good idea to mention that to Personnel. Maybe later if i got to the interview stage. So, no Dave, I don't believe you got him fired. I don't know for certain. Join us if you want to. I don't hold that letter against you. He did hold to his principles. Strongly hold to them he did. Hugs, DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 11:07:17 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <501qrl$h7s@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <5006er$pss@starman.rsn.hp.com> <3223CDFC.550@pacbell.net> <50124e$og8@zap.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu Leslie: >"What do you suppose the world would be like, if God said, 'okay, >you think *you* could do better? Be my guest...'" thank you Leslie. I can imagine it happening. Hugs, DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 11:19:20 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: <501ri8$i98@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223CDFC.550@pacbell.net> <50124e$og8@zap.io.org> <501gj0$gu2@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu []>Leslie. We'd all have to learn calculus, *that's* for sure... [] [] kitten chokes. "i had the chance to get him to teach me math, and i [] let it slide. the mind boggles at the thought of a speaker-run [] universe....i hope there would be a small corner reserved for us [] bimbos. Of course there would be such a corner. I would have to have a place to sit with you. And we could watch hime arrange things. [] DAMNIT ANYHOW!" yes. i was certain he would outlast me. Now, I outlast him. my health is better than his was, but he was much more stubborn than me. As for my beliefs, I think Death has a black eye, and a couple of broken bones, at the least. Hugs, DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.supernet.net!news.magicnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.infi.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.iadfw.net!usenet ~From: Sam Robinson ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:46:25 -0400 Organization: INTERNET AMERICA ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <32245BC1.14AC@interpath.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-168-121-229-113.dialup.mindspring.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Sam walks up to the line at the line and waits patiently, quietly watching the faces of the rest of the patrons. When his turn comes he says "Carl, or Speaker I didn't ever have the fortune to meet you. But when ever and where ever your name was mentioned there was an immediate reaction. I have heard praise for your intellect, and some criticism of your manner, in your Speaker persona. In any case, you have been a force shaping this place I love, and it would not be the same without your influence. I wish I had known you. -- Sam Robinson Samstuff@mindspring.com ____________________________________________________________ If you don't know what you want, you can never ever have it. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 14:24:13 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <5026ct$j5f@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <32245BC1.14AC@interpath.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:46:25 -0400 in alt.callahans, Sam Robinson said: : Sam walks up to the line at the line and waits patiently, quietly : watching the faces of the rest of the patrons. When his turn comes he : says "Carl, or Speaker I didn't ever have the fortune to meet you. But : when ever and where ever your name was mentioned there was an immediate : reaction. "This is true. Rare indeed was the person who was indifferent to StM entirely--if any such person existed at all. He was a lightening rod for a lot of things; he acted as a polarization factor on most any issue he argued. He brought out both the best--and the worst-- in just about everyone who read his posts. The latter is not so hard to achieve--the former is also rare indeed." I have heard praise for your intellect, and some criticism of : your manner, in your Speaker persona. In any case, you have been a force : shaping this place I love, and it would not be the same without your : influence. I wish I had known you. "You can know him, if you care to--much is archived by DejaNews (http://www.dejanews.com). Set up a filter to search alt.callahans for this year, using the author lydick@sol1.gps.caltech.edu. Also there is the alt.callahans archive maintained by frood, which you can find a link to from my webpage as well as from shadowcat's page at http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html. "Just remember--his net.personna was a deliberate construct; it was only the expression of one facet of his personality. Do not mistake his posts to a.c. or anywhere else as painting a full picture of who he was, because you'll jump to wrong conclusions that way." Leslie. Who saw a whole other side to him in email. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news1.erols.com!news ~From: Noel Lynne Figart ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 09:37:50 GMT Organization: Pendragon Dream Factory ~Lines: 24 Message-ID: <50141e$2re@test-sun.erols.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: frd-as1s04.erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22KIT (Windows; U; 16bit) claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) wrote: >"If I may make a possibly controversial toast about a very controversial >patron..." He probably would have had it no other way! > >"To a loyal friend, a stubborn arguer, an ass, a scientist; someone >people blamed when they left alt.callahans, someone people laughed >to see 'still here' when they came back. I never liked his tactics, >but I came to respect his goals. To Carl Lydick, Speaker to Minerals." > >*CRASH* Noel grins wryly and runs a hand through her hair, "You said it better than I ever could, Claudia. That irritating, grumpy Kzin "did" get me back into studying math." Noel tosses back a Long Island Iced tea and sends it crashing into the fireplace. Alamus trots over to Noel and wraps his trunk around her ankle as she stares into the flames shaking her head and biting her lip -- not knowing whether to laugh or cry. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 15:34:05 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 86 Message-ID: <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:58:45 -0500 in alt.callahans, Alan B. Combs said: All of a sudden, Leslie realizes the irony...this will be the last time Speaker's name is in the title of a thread... One last time, then, a thread to join all the hundreds of others with your name in the subject line, StM. I promise to try to represent your side in your absence, knowing how much you hated to be misinterpreted. What would you really reply to all this? I don't know. But I'll give it my best, most educated shot... Forgive me if I don't flame anyone you would have flamed... : I discovered alt.callahans about February of this year, at a time when I : really needed it. I lurked for a while before participating and grew to : appreciate Carl's depth of general knowledge and scholarship -- in many, : many areas. After wiping her eyes so she can read the screen again, Leslie says, "Out of curiosity...and I was always nosy and prying...to which he never objected...I once asked him just what all he considered himself an 'expert' in. And he said..." --- [Speaker, circa April 1996] Well, let's see. In engineering and science, there's four years as an undergrad at Caltech. Social sciences? Four years of grad work at Caltech. Actual degrees earned: None. I was one lab course short of a BS in engineering, ran out of financial aid before completing a thesis in economics, and was ill enough at the time that I didn't get around to filling out the paperwork for a terminal MS. Expert level: The VAX/VMS operating system. Very knowledgeable about: Physics, up to but not including general relativity; Electrical engineering; Political science; Microeconomics. With a less stringent criterion: Biochemistry (at least as it applies to diabetes), Mechanical engineering, General chemistry, Mathematics (up to about the level of complex analysis), Carpentry, Masonry, Cooking. ------ [...] : I did not like his anger (or at least what I perceived as anger, though he : said it was not) and his intolerance for the fuzzy, ambiguous, : easy-to-misinterpret nature of words. I do affirm the strong, wonderful, : helpful resource he was. He fought ignorance, diabetes, and congestive : heart failure. I wonder if lack of hope for the future, and similar lack : of hope for the present contributed to the anger we saw at the end of his : postings. Until we are able to walk in his shoes, perhaps, even the anger : and flames should be forgiven. "Don't jump to conclusions. There were a lot of flames then, true, but don't forget that he was involved in defending himself against misinterpretations. And perhaps it was just chemically pure chance that several subjects came up at once that fit his criteria for 'things which deserve to be flamed.' Painting him as being so unself-aware of his own emotional state does him a major disservice." : To Carl J. Lydick, a *man*. The journey is not over. Albeit, you : rejected the concept, may God's grace go with you. "I hope you aren't referring to the God of the Old and New Testament. StM really hated that guy a lot. The God of the Deists, he'd be willing to go along with..." : C R A S H (then hugs and tears around) Thank you. Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 15:48:42 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 31 Message-ID: <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 27 Aug 1996 14:49:45 GMT in alt.callahans, barbara trumpinski said: : kitten comes out of the folx room dressed in flame red. "by all the : gods and goddesses that speaker didn't believe in, let's make merry : and have the best damn wake we can." she lifts the rum and diet coke : that has been handed to her. "to speaker, and to us all...this life : is sometimes not big enough to hold us. let the circle be open but : never broken." "Put the Animaniacs tapes in the VCR. He loved that show. And then a lot of old B movies..." : radio free colorado(tm) starts playing: a medley of swing interspersed : with the grateful dead and other random songs...but not 'suicide is : painless'. "Truckin'. They have to play Truckin'. There was a thread once where people were telling what the theme song to the movie of the story of their life would be, and that's what he said." : (leslie, don't cry) "I can't help it," Leslie says, "I wanted to meet him someday, and give him a real hug, and scratch his ears. I'm sure he knew how much I cared about him, but I still wanted the chance to *tell* him, face to face," More tears spilling down her cheeks, she adds, "This is the first time in my life I've ever lost someone I really cared about." Leslie. I thought he was too stubborn to die... ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!world!wgarmil ~From: wgarmil@world.std.com (Wayne S Garmil) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Message-ID: Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <4vu4r8$3ai@babylon5.babcom.com> <3223B058.11AE@Titan.SFASU.EDU> ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:37:30 GMT ~Lines: 20 In article <3223B058.11AE@Titan.SFASU.EDU>, Sailor Jim wrote: > >P.S. Shipmates, do the man proud and hang that plaque on the back wall >of the fireplace (on the inside, of course, to remember him every time >you see the flames). You know, I *like* this suggestion. Yes, Carl's name deserves to be added to the plaque on the moon, I'm not saying it shouldn't go there. But having a second plaque for him, hung by the fireplace so when we see the flames we think of Carl, that just seams VERY appropriate. Wayne (who expected Speaker to out-last us all here) -- _ __ _ __ Who wants to live forever ' ) / // / / ) / If true love has to die? / / / o // __/ / __. __ __/ - F. Mercury & B. May (_(_/ <_ Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:06:30 GMT ~Lines: 104 ~Sender: tlsmith@netcom12.netcom.com Ilene H. Morgan (imorgan@umr.edu) wrote: : In article <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, kittent@staff.uiuc.edu : (barbara trumpinski) wrote: : >kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called : >speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl : >was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone : >out there can help, please do." : >she raises her glass in a silent toast. : Ilene sadly shakes her head. Usually she likes to be right, but there are : times when she would have dearly loved to have been wrong, and this is one : of those times. : "To Carl. May you have an easier time in the next world, if any, than you : did in this one." : *CRASH* : Ilene I, too, would have preferred to have been wrong. Ilene and a few others will know what I mean; it is not important now. After I first entered alt.callahans, and "noticed" Speaker, I back- tracked and read many of his archived articles. I had respect for his brilliance and knowledge. I did not agree with his tactics, particularly in the last months here in Callahan's. I saw him more and more using logical trickery and the strawmen he warned of himself, to "win" arguments, whether his points were valid or not. As his articles became more and more vituperative, I often wondered if he was somehow proving to himself that he was still living, and was having an effect in the world. Heat and agitation can be signs of life. Several of us worried about Carl, privately. I know that we would have *preferred* that he *have* that operation, and possibly regain some health. It was his choice not to. I do not know why. There were many things I did not understand about Carl. He came to my defense once, even after I had replied (in email) to a letter of his in which he addressed me by a name other than my own by telling him that if he could not pay enough attention to what he was reading to attribute it correctly, then I didn't think I would put much faith in what he was saying about it, either. Shortly thereafter, he *completely* misinterpreted a "fun" post that I made, an obvious intellectual *game* of speculation, as an avowal of my own personal beliefs. At that point, he seemed not to be able to understand the difference between a "Gee...What if..." where folx take an oddball premise and rip it apart for fun, and deep religious beliefs. I tried to explain to him in email, but was unsuccessful. For some time after I once remarked that my NetCom server did not pick up all the alt.callahans articles, he sent me emails explaining the propagation of articles on USENET. A *lot* of emails explaining that. Over and over *again*. I kept telling him that I really did understand it, and he kept sending those articles. I don't understand *that*, either. He did keep me brushed-up on my analytical reasoning. I annoyed me that he expected folx to say "You are right, Speaker," if he made a point in one of the ubiquitous flame fests he indulged in, but would not do the same himself. And I worried about him as his articles became less meticulous, and his reasoning more sloppy. When I told him via email that I was worried, he ignored my letters. No, I did not understand "Speaker to Minerals" or Carl Lydick. I admired his brilliance, and I respected him, when he adhered to his own oft-referred-to logical preciseness and rules of debate. I hope wherever "Carl" is, if anywhere, that it is somewhere *interesting*, and that he is well, and alert, and learning. Perhaps the Library of the Milky Way has just taken on a new assistant. I doubt it will be long before he has it figured out how that place *should* be run... >>> crash <<< "Never insult anyone unintentionally." - Arthur H. Quirmbach (and others) "The One Great Commandment is: 'Thou Shalt Not Waste.'" - Arthur H. Quirmbach (and others) "The saddest thought in the world is that *nothing* lasts forever... The most comforting thought in the world is ... that nothing lasts forever." - Arthur H. Quirmbach - C'mell (M.Q.S. posting courtesy tlsmith@netcom.com) -- *--------------------------------------------------------------------* | M.Q.S. c/o T.L.S | "Don't play with that! You have no idea where | | tlsmith@netcom.com | it's been..." -- Speaker to Elevators | *--------------------------------------------------------------------* Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail ~From: nellibruce@aol.com (NelliBruce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 16:18:10 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) ~Lines: 14 ~Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <5029i2$es4@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Reply-To: nellibruce@aol.com (NelliBruce) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com One of the first things I did when I stumbled into The Place last summer was jump head first into an argument with Speaker. (I refer of course to the whole Didi- fest that was going on at the time.) He taught me a few things about myself and about Human Nature in general, and although I couldn't stand the son-of-a-bitch while he was around, I sure will miss him. HERE'S TO YOU, CARL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!CRAAAASHSHSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - The Averageman Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 17:19:37 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 11 Message-ID: <502glp$ge5@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223B058.11AE@Titan.SFASU.EDU> <322478D0.4CA4@lvld.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu Randy Martens wrote: >find a picture of Carl scowling and engrave it on the plaque! He was seldom angry when he made flame posts. I know that to be true, because he stated over and over he did no such thing. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 17:29:00 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <502h7c$i46@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu The Yendi wrote: >post, I *went* to the police station and *SAW* the report. I do not >think that this is flimsy evidence." by 'flimsy evidence' i think they refer to kitten's post. DJ. [ whom some might mistake for Kensie Graeme...] [ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ puzzles even me, so don't ask.] -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 17:51:24 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 62 Message-ID: <502ihc$n1a@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <4vvu4g$ik3@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502dit$88j@mozz.unh.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu Kitten, i hope you and Patchmaker don't mind me borrowing that line there 'rage against the dying of the light.' Ode to a Kzin by DJ. Tis not yet sunset where i am, But a light has died, [ A rage against it going out is of no use,] Out there by the Western Shore, The Moon, cold heated orb, orbits 'round the Earth, Saturn spins like a top, Galaxies hiss in the Deep Dark, I travel via my mind's eye across the Universe, But one of those I would share my dreams with, He, Another Friend of mine is Gone, I had hoped to meet him at ConFrancisco, but he did not feel that his bicycle would make it that far, I wanted to travel there, to Cal Tech, But my money ran short, I had hoped to go to L.A. Con III, and make a shorter trip, but no money graced my wallet, There is always next time I said, But now there is no next time, I discovered his emotion when one day he came in here, and announced his brother had committed suicide, I cried with him, I knew he did not care for maudlin woe, So i sent him a polite email, And he thanked me. Twas then I learned forever more, He wasn't just an arguer. A few times we did engage in mock combat, When I called him a vegetable eating Kzin, And he called me monkey-boy, So. From 'monkey-boy' to a 'Kzin', Good Night My Friend ! Tis much too soon for you to go. Jim, aka DJ of alt.callahans. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!argus.demon.co.uk ~From: Andy May ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 96 12:52:41 GMT ~Lines: 26 Message-ID: <841236761snz@argus.demon.co.uk> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <5006er$pss@starman.rsn.hp.com> <3223CDFC.550@pacbell.net> ~Reply-To: Andy@argus.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: argus.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.30 X-Mail2News-Path: argus.demon.co.uk In article <3223CDFC.550@pacbell.net> polymath@pacbell.net "The Polymath" writes: > Richard A. Schumacher wrote: > > > >>kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called > >>speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl > >>was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone > >>out there can help, please do." > > >He'll be back. God will grow weary of Carl loudly pointing out all > >of His mistakes. > > ROTFL through tears! (-; > > Thanks. I needed that. > "Owwwwww - that hurts" journeyman still has tears in his eyes, but from the pain of laughter rather than sorrow. "I'd vote to print that out and prop it next to Speaker's Plaque." "To Speaker to Minerals - often unappreciated, sometimes diskliked, but usually respected." [journeyman] Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 13:09:08 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 21 Message-ID: <501gdk$gsc@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <3223E2EF.75C7@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu polymath: >I've passed the word about StM to Soprano, who's been too busy to >be much of a presence here of late. She sends her condolences and >will check in as soon as her computer is set up again (she just moved >to a new apartment). >She wanted to know if anyone had heard anthing about funeral plans. >Some of us in the area who knew Carl personally would want to attend. kitten looks up. "you might call dos amigos. i don't know anything about his RL(tm) family. and if you can remember helen's last name i really would like to know. (she's his librarian friend. the one he vacationed with). if you find out anything, please pass it along." -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 13:12:00 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 27 Message-ID: <501gj0$gu2@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <5006er$pss@starman.rsn.hp.com> <3223CDFC.550@pacbell.net> <50124e$og8@zap.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu >Leslie, still laughing at an image of StM *demanding* answers >from God, seconds Polymath's thanks. > >"StM said, not too long ago, that his idea of a perfect afterlife >would be a place where 'you get to keep learning!'--a place where >there are always new questions to find answers to, always new >challenges. (Not that he believed in an afterlife at all, or the >idea of a 'soul.' Strictly as an exercise in imagination.) >"What do you suppose the world would be like, if God said, 'okay, >you think *you* could do better? Be my guest...'" >Leslie. We'd all have to learn calculus, *that's* for sure... kitten chokes. "i had the chance to get him to teach me math, and i let it slide. the mind boggles at the thought of a speaker-run universe....i hope there would be a small corner reserved for us bimbos. DAMNIT ANYHOW!" -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!ap-seans.uchicago.edu!seanr ~From: seanr@fs-gate.uchicago.edu (Starknight) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker X-Nntp-Posting-Host: ap-seans.uchicago.edu Message-ID: ~Lines: 24 ~Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: University of Chicago/Comptrollers Office X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #1] ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vu0ej$r45@herald.concentric.net> <4vv563$r8c@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:41:10 GMT In article <4vv563$r8c@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) writes: >>Starknight watches as the others make their contributions, finishing his >>drink all the while. Getting up from his seat, he makes his way to the >>chalk line. >>"To Speaker-to-Minerals: without whom I would not be the man I am today. >>Thank you for your dedication to the truth. You shall be missed." >>The sable-clad Space Ranger tosses his glass into the air and propels it into >>the fireplace with a quick burst of his pressor beam. <<>> The >>glass shatters into fine pieces, like sand, which briefly form the face of a >>Kzintosh before drifting downward through the flames. >>I'm still numb >kitten turns to hug her lover. "you were the first person i told and >you helped me to realize that we are all part of this tapestry called >life... thank you." Starknight mutely accepts the hug, unable to choose words to express his sentiment even were he capable of speech. Starknight It's been a year for thoughts of mortality ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!uchinews!ap-seans.uchicago.edu!seanr ~From: seanr@fs-gate.uchicago.edu (Starknight) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker X-Nntp-Posting-Host: ap-seans.uchicago.edu Message-ID: ~Lines: 24 ~Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: University of Chicago/Comptrollers Office X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #1] ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvstr$28t@boris.eden.com> ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:43:24 GMT In article <4vvstr$28t@boris.eden.com> rhartman@eden.com (Rachel Hartman) writes: >kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) wrote: >>kitten comes out of the folx room dressed in flame red. "by all the >>gods and goddesses that speaker didn't believe in, let's make merry >>and have the best damn wake we can." she lifts the rum and diet coke >>that has been handed to her. "to speaker, and to us all...this life >>is sometimes not big enough to hold us. let the circle be open but >>never broken." >Rach makes her way to the chalkline, Bacardi and Diet Coke in hand. >"I never met Carl in RL, but on a few occasions, when I needed it, he >sent me some sympathetic e-mail." She raises her glass. "Carl, if >there is indeed an afterlife, and you're in it, I hope you're >somewhere where the drinks are always just right, the debates are >rousing, and tempers are fireproof." >She drinks, then sets the glass gently beside the plaque. >"Mike? The Imperial Treasury of the Court of Chocolate is covering >the cost of Bacardi and Diet Cokes for all who wish." "Oooh, you're in trouble... that just happens to be my RL drink of choice..." Starknight Set me up a double, Mike... It's a wake! Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!newstand.syr.edu!sarkar3.syr.edu!shpark ~From: shpark@sarkar3.syr.edu (Sheeyun Park) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 13:48:04 GMT Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse ~Lines: 6 Message-ID: <501imk$e75@newstand.syr.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sarkar3.syr.edu "Rest in peace. I won't miss you, but I hope you rest in peace." shpark -- shpark@mailbox.syr.edu Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!inter2.interstice.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hookup!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!userrusj ~From: userrusj@is.dal.ca (John Barnstead) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 14:12:43 GMT Organization: Dalhousie University ~Lines: 21 Message-ID: <501k4r$as6@News.Dal.Ca> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <4vvu4g$ik3@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: is.dal.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Roland X (rolandx@ix.netcom.com) wrote: : I later encountered Speaker-to-Minerals valiantly doing battle with : the Slugs during the Slug Invasion(tm). I learned then not to judge a : person by one aspect of them. He was witty, imaginative, and : generally a blast to be around. The flag over the headquarters of the LIMEX LIBERATION ARMY (tm), somewhere deep beneath Cheyenne Mountain, is lowered to half-staff as General Aloisius Ded and the legions of Tenthredinidae and other Slugs mourn the passing of their arch-foe. No one who saw it could ever forget the image of Speaker-to- Minerals slug-skiing down the slopes of Jezebel's volcano... You can't have a war without an enemy, and Speaker was happy to oblige... giving a great deal of pleasure to many people. Pernicious the Musquodoboit Harbour Farm Cat, remembering how he tried to disarm one of Speaker's favourite epithets anagrammatically, whispers his solution now as an epitaph: "Finish Star Orb, Speaker-to-Minerals... and when you're done, may it be the brightest jewel in the Patriarch's Firmament..." Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 15:12:56 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 58 Message-ID: <501nlo$p0q@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu Hey, all, I just pulled into the bar to visit the wake, though I may stop back from time to time. In article <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net>, The Polymath wrote: >Francis A. Ney, Jr. wrote: > >>...without knowledge of his medical >>history, I couldn't even hazard an informed guess. And that guess would >>probably be wrong. It's happened before. > >Carl suffered from insulin dependent diabetes and all its attendant >consequences (pick a symptom, any symptom, he probably had it in >spades at some point). Which makes it particularly ironic that a moron on misc.health.diabetes whose ideas Speaker had ripped up one side and down the other (did a damned sight better job of it than I could, though Goddess knows I tried) finally resorted to claiming Carl (or Karl Lydik, as said moron, may he never darken my door again, insisted on spelling it) wasn't really diabetic, didn't know anything about diabetes, and was just hanging out on m.h.d. to inflate his ego. I guess that his deluded mind actually believed that - Carl rarely aired his (specific) problems in public. Said moron also threatened Carl's life. While I don't believe he followed through, he wouldn't be safe if he ever met me in person. >He also suffered from congestive heart failure Believe it or not, that may be YetAnotherDiabeticComplication(tm). >and was scheduled for 6x bypass surgery early this year, but changed >his mind for reasons likely known only to himself. (Supposedly, the >operation would have prolonged his life, but not improved its quality. >Carl decided it wasn't worth it). > >I always admired his stubborn refusal to let his infirmities interfere >with his life any more than absolutely necessary -- although it often >worsened his health to do so. He never struck me as the actively >suicidal type. > >All in all, "illness" is the most likely cause of his passing. His famed temper was more of an asset than a burden on m.h.d -- the enemies he made there were not the kinds of folks he would have wanted as friends. Mostly his ire was spent on the snake-oil salesmen and other ranters offering false, and therefore dangerous, medical advice. (I only got in range of his blowtorch once -- when he thought I was suggesting giving fluids to someone unconscious in an insulin reaction.) He'll be missed. Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.inc.net!news ~From: Ager or Persson ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 15:13:39 GMT Organization: Internet Connect, Inc. The Wisconsin ISP 414-476-4266 http://www.inc.net ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <501nn3$n9c@news.inc.net> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.230.195.75 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1 (Windows; U; 16bit) The Polymath wrote: He also suffered from congestive heart failure >and was scheduled for 6x bypass surgery early this year, but changed >his mind for reasons likely known only to himself. (Supposedly, the >operation would have prolonged his life, but not improved its quality. >Carl decided it wasn't worth it). Many bypass patients report feeling dull (permanently) after having been on the heart/lung machine....sort of like ginger ale without the fizz. Heart/lung machines aren't as efficient as our own hearts and lungs. I wouldn't blame Carl Lydick one bit for not wanting to blunt the mental acuity he was known for. -- Beth ---------- 73 de NN9E ---------- Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!netnews.com!udel-eecis!cpk-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 21:37:34 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 41 Message-ID: <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:51:54 GMT in alt.callahans, The Unloved said: : The Unloved pokes his head out from his dark corner. He looks : confused and upset. "I know I've been wrapped up in my own problems, : as of late... and as a result I missed something important. Can : someone please tell about the dear departed... who he was and how it : happened?" Leslie smiles wryly. "A lot of folks...myself included...tended to refer to him as 'that s.o.b.' 'Dear departed...' doesn't *quite* seem to fit Speaker-to-Minerals... "We're not sure yet just how he died...my god, we don't even know WHEN he died, I just realized...we only know he was discovered dead by his landlord last Friday, the 23rd. "As to who he was...ah well, that's not easy. His name was Carl J. Lydick, and he was 40 years old. He was a VAX/VMS god and was the terror and genius of comp.os.vms as well as other groups, like misc.health.diabetes, and alt.callahans. His a.c. personna was that of a Kzin from the Niven _Ringworld_ universe (but I always privately believed he was a Kzin who'd been raised by Vulcans...) "He's listed in the Net.Legends FAQ maintained by Dave DeLaney (in part 4), but it's an outdated entry by now. "He was the original immoveable object, and that inspired many to try to play irresistable force...and a lot of them failed, rather spectacularly. "He was complex and complicated and just plain didn't *think* the same way most other folks do, although most people tried to fit him into a category they were more familiar with, causing them to misunderstand him by quite a wide margin. And often he didn't take the time and effort to explain himself--until he'd started an argument... "He--was a lot of different things, to different people. "He was someone I loved." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!wariat.org!kf8nh.apk.net!news ~From: bsa@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 20:44:21 -0400 Organization: Brandon's home server in Parma, Ohio ~Lines: 27 Message-ID: <502p55$eb@kf8nh.apk.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kf8nh.apk.net Also sprach kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) (<4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>): +----- | kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called | speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl | was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone +--->8 (gasp/shudder/...) As I write this, I find myself feeling --- empty. As I felt when my father died: the pain didn't hit until much later, but the void was there immediately. Which is appropriate, as in many ways I have pictured Carl as being a lot like my father: an intelligent, stubborn SOB who refused to bow to either common nonsense or his own disability (polio, in my father's case). I *know* I argued a lot with them both :-) --- but both of them made me think, a priceless gift. And, even more priceless, demonstrated that you don't have to put up with whatever BS other people want to hand you. If you were still here you'd probably start an argument over this :-) but that won't stop me from saying it and meaning it: may the Witness look upon you, treasure you, and commemorate you in succeeding generations. -- ++brandon s. allbery flying with merlin! bsa@kf8nh.apk.net telotech's "loup-guru" :-) FORZA CREW! bsa@telotech.com Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!atmnet.net!usenet ~From: bob@linkline.com (Bob Clevenger) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:52:51 -0700 Organization: Not Bloody Likely! ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <322523be.15797652@news.linkline.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Reply-To: bob@linkline.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.67.165.121 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) wrote: >kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called >speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl >was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone >out there can help, please do." > >she raises her glass in a silent toast. I join you in that toast. I tried to think of words, but failed. -=Bob=- in Ontario, Calif. NRA, CRPA, SCA, IOOF, N6MLV I'm a politician's worst nightmare --- A voter with a memory! Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 16:58:17 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <501tr9$pui@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu In article , Terry L. Smith wrote: > >For some time after I once remarked that my NetCom server did not >pick up all the alt.callahans articles, he sent me emails explaining >the propagation of articles on USENET. A *lot* of emails explaining >that. Over and over *again*. I kept telling him that I really did >understand it, and he kept sending those articles. I don't understand >*that*, either. Hmm. May have something tangential to do with an argument he was having with a True Kook on another group who, among other things, excoriated him for not retracting his (rare) errors until the messages pointing them out actually had time to *propagate* *to* *his* *site*. Said kook, of course, didn't *ever* admit error. Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!netnews.com!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!eskimo!news ~From: glinda@eskimo.com (g.l.wilson) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker X-Nntp-Posting-Host: tia1.eskimo.com Message-ID: ~Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id) Organization: totally lacking X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.10 ~References: <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com> <9608270819.AA00523@192.80.10.188> <5004hu$od6@parlor.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 17:21:44 GMT ~Lines: 24 >In article <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com>, Randy Martens >writes: > Randy rummages around in his portfolio for a moment, pulls out a > small dilithium crystal and slaps it on the bar. > "Mike, Bacardi & Diet Coke for anyone who wants one, and mix me > one, please." "Mike, one of those for me, please?" ...and finding nothing at all to say... ***crash*** --glinda, thinking of a Kzin in the Summerlands -- glinda@eskimo.com "I have a life; I just don't have time for it." Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!mcsun!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail ~From: slywlf@aol.com (Slywlf) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 22:19:45 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) ~Lines: 16 ~Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <502uo1$nr7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader While I never crossed swords (or pens, or keyboards) with StM, (probably too much of a non-confrontational person), I read almost everything he posted with great interest. While I did not always like him, or, more precisely, his way of expressing himself, I was in awe of his brilliant mind. The occasional (too seldom, imho) flashes of humor were welcome delights, and he always could jump-start my brain even when I was too tired to care. I am truly sorry never to have "met" him properly as StM, or as Carl, and I will miss the 'tang' his presense made in Callahans. So, TO CARL, and his fascinating alter-ego StM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CRASH<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Your wisdom, strength of will, and willingness to share them will be sorely missed. Fewer flamewars is too big a price to pay for your loss. ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!utcsri!info.ecf!news ~From: "LIN KA-MING (Magus Firecow)" ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Sender: news@ecf.toronto.edu (News Administrator) Message-ID: <32249061.7BCC@ecf.toronto.edu> ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:30:57 GMT X-Nntp-Posting-Host: spark13.ecf Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.4 sun4m) Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility ~Lines: 21 A plaque on the south shore of Radiant Lake in Algonquin Park: "Perhaps in this neglected spot is laid Some heart once pregnant with celetial fire Whose hands the Rod of Empire might have swayed Or waked to ecstasy the living lyre." I don't know whether to wish that StM's resting in peace or that he's warring in the everafter as he seemed to here. I suspect that silence isn't something that StM would want, and I never met or knew Carl Lydick. So... <<>> I can imagine being chewed out even now for posting something I only suspect might be true, with no proof... Magus Firecow. ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.put.com!main.put.com!silence ~From: Silence and Shadow ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ~Sender: usenet@news.put.com (The Root) Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32235f17.181655040@news.ukonline.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <32235f17.181655040@news.ukonline.co.uk> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: main.put.com ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:58:55 GMT ~Lines: 22 "I feel horrible for asking this," Silence says quietly, "but the beginning of this thread seems to have completely passed me by, and I have a feeling that it's too important to miss. If anyone has saved the articles, I would appreciate them being forwarded." She searches for words and can't find any more. At last, she says helplessly, "I didn't really know Speaker, but I saw some of his posts while lurking on this group and others. I respect a lot of what he said, though not necessarily how he said it, and I know he touched a lot of lives. If anyone needs someone to talk to or a shoulder to lean on, I will gladly give whatever help I can. I wish there were an unawkward way to say this, but there isn't--you all have my sympathy and my commiseration." She lofts a glass towards the fireplace, joining a number of others, and settles back to listen quietly to the eulogies. Silence and Shadow, Freelancers Extraordinaire Sword and claws for hire -- English and HTML writing and editing Mental and emotional healing -- Advice given and taken Reasonable prices and many, many references; email for information ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!unixhub!finch.SLAC.Stanford.EDU!panetta ~From: panetta@finch.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (The Yendi) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Message-ID: ~Sender: news@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvd7n$7i9@eagle.ais.net> ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:04:17 GMT ~Lines: 18 In article , Roland X wrote: > > Indeed he would. And if he were alive, he'd come back and roast us >all for mourning him on flimsy evidence. The Yendi is still hanging around with a NutraSweet headache: "Flimsy evidence? I go to Caltech. I live in Pasadena. After kitten's post, I *went* to the police station and *SAW* the report. I do not think that this is flimsy evidence." --Yendi -- My opinions are mine...not SLAC's...not Caltech's...not DOE's...mine. (except by random, unforseeable coincidences) panetta@cithex.caltech.edu panetta@slac.stanford.edu Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!mozz.unh.edu!christa.unh.edu!mca ~From: mca@christa.unh.edu (Marc C Allain) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 21:26:53 GMT Organization: University of New Hampshire - Durham, NH ~Lines: 27 Message-ID: <502dit$88j@mozz.unh.edu> ~References: <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <4vvu4g$ik3@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: christa.unh.edu In article <> kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) writes: > >> "Now Kitten. Leslie may cry if she wishes." Patchmaker steps away >>for a moment to call in a request for 'Veteran of the Psychic Wars,' >>then returns. >> "I was thinking we'd do this out by the lake, but that may be to >>melancholy. Shall we dance, beloved Net-Goddess? And then some fond... >>well, intense remembrances?" > >"crying is good for the soul, i know....but i prefer to rage against >the dying of the light!" kitten holds out her hand for a dance with >patchmaker. > As some wonderful Miller tune comes on (Speaker and I shared (share?) a fondness for Glen Miller,) Patchmaker twirls the Net.Goddess out onto the floating dance floor. (He's ever so much better at dancing than Marc could ever dream of being.) "'Rage against the dying of the light.' Well, I see a certain loss of virtual volume, but never doubt that Speaker's legacy will live on. "When this dance is done, I will share some memories, but for now, first things first. (You dance divinely - naturally.)" -- If you need me, I'll be down in the lab, mixing metaphors Patchmaker Marc C. Allain mca@christa.unh.edu http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mca ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!jadmire ~From: jadmire@netcom.com (Joseph A. Admire) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Message-ID: Organization: 5 miles southeast of Manassas Battlefield X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:50:25 GMT ~Lines: 50 ~Sender: jadmire@netcom20.netcom.com David P. Murphy (dpm@access4.digex.net) wrote: : PhaseOfTheMoon looks around the bar. he's not drinking, he's not talking, : and it's a good bet that his eyes aren't focused on anything within the : room. : he shuffles a few pieces of paper in his hands for a while before finally : coming to a decision. the words come out slowly. : "I'm new here, and maybe i'm out of line to do this, but ya'll care about : the guy one way or another, so maybe you'd wanna know about this letter. : i wrote it, i mailed it, and i guess i'd do it again. comp.os.vms was the : best of newsgroups and the worst of newsgroups because of him --- : but i didn't want him fired and i sure as hell didn't want him dead." : he tacks the papers up on the wall at http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm : then just as slowly walks over to the bar. Joe notices the new arrival as he speaks his piece and tacks the letter to the bulletin board, then gets up from his table and reads the letter. : "i just wanted him to lighten up from his 'i can post anything i want' : attitude, 'cuz it made a lot of folks miserable, but he never understood : that there *was* one step i could take. then again, i got no idea : whether what i sent affected him at all." "Welcome, Phase. Sorry if I can't be more enthusiastic, but somehow this just isn't a day for going all hog-wild, I think." He considers a bit. "Several other people have said this already, but I'd also like to say that I don't hold you responsible in the least for Carl's death. The way I see it is, as contentious and sharp-tongued as he was, it was inevitable that someday, somenone, somewhere would finally issue the complaint that would go over critical mass and knock him off the Net. In fact, I'm really not certain your lettter was even a factor - when he disappeared, it was talked about here in a.c. that Carl was already in trouble with his supervisors at Caltech, because of his posting style and, perhaps more to the point, because he was spending so much time posting during what must have been working hours. And our own Jim Pierce has stated that, as long as a year ago, Carl already seemed to have been in bad odor with The Powers That Be, at least in the personnel section. So, I think there's no reason for you to carry on so..." : "Mike, i could really use a six-pack of pepsi, please." Joe digs in his pocket. "If you permit, I''d be glad to buy for you. I could use a refill myself. Mike, another St. Pauli Girl." -- Joe Admire (jadmire@netcom.com) (jadmire@mnsinc.com) (josepha150@aol.com) East Carolina 1985 (Go Pirates!)/GWU JD 1989/legal researcher for hire *Stevie Nicks is _still_ the queen of rock and roll.* Team OS/2 member * Web page now open at http://www.mnsinc.com/jadmire/ Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!jobone!news2.acs.oakland.edu!news.tacom.army.mil!ulowell.uml.edu!tribune.meitca.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!daily-planet.execpc.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 23:24:07 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <502ken$guj@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu >All of a sudden, Leslie realizes the irony...this will be the last time >Speaker's name is in the title of a thread... kitten starts giggling and can't stop...suddenly a bearded guy in a robe and sandles, wearing a toolbelt, and leaning on a wooden support comes out of the crowd to give her a hug and calm her down. -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.bright.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 23:26:25 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 21 Message-ID: <502kj1$gvi@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu >: (leslie, don't cry) >"I can't help it," Leslie says, "I wanted to meet him someday, and >give him a real hug, and scratch his ears. I'm sure he knew how >much I cared about him, but I still wanted the chance to *tell* >him, face to face," More tears spilling down her cheeks, she >adds, "This is the first time in my life I've ever lost someone >I really cared about." >Leslie. I thought he was too stubborn to die... "me, too....and the sonofabitch was supposed to CALL me if he needed anything. i feel like i just lost my brother all over again." kitten wonders if this has been a long week for everyone, or just her. -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 23:28:05 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: <502km5$h04@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <4vvu4g$ik3@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502dit$88j@mozz.unh.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu > As some wonderful Miller tune comes on (Speaker and I shared (share?) >a fondness for Glen Miller,) Patchmaker twirls the Net.Goddess out onto >the floating dance floor. (He's ever so much better at dancing than >Marc could ever dream of being.) > "'Rage against the dying of the light.' Well, I see a certain loss >of virtual volume, but never doubt that Speaker's legacy will live on. > "When this dance is done, I will share some memories, but for now, >first things first. (You dance divinely - naturally.)" "thank you...." -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!aries!miller ~From: miller@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Kelly Miller) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 00:40:00 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: aries.scs.uiuc.edu The Polymath writes: >Carl suffered from insulin dependent diabetes and all its attendant >consequences (pick a symptom, any symptom, he probably had it in >spades at some point). He also suffered from congestive heart failure >and was scheduled for 6x bypass surgery early this year, but changed >his mind for reasons likely known only to himself. (Supposedly, the >operation would have prolonged his life, but not improved its quality. >Carl decided it wasn't worth it). For what it's worth, Carl was not an insulin dependent diabetic, but a non-insulin dependent diabetic who took insulin. Not a major point, perhaps, but Carl always demanded precision... Kelly Miller just a lurker from m.h.d. Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!dby-ct1-08.ix.netcom.com!user ~From: rolandx@ix.netcom.com (Roland X) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 00:42:23 GMT Organization: Me? Organized? ;^) ~Lines: 57 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dby-ct1-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 28 5:42:23 PM PDT 1996 In article <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: > On 27 Aug 1996 14:49:45 GMT in alt.callahans, > barbara trumpinski said: > : kitten comes out of the folx room dressed in flame red. "by all the > : gods and goddesses that speaker didn't believe in, let's make merry > : and have the best damn wake we can." she lifts the rum and diet coke > : that has been handed to her. "to speaker, and to us all...this life > : is sometimes not big enough to hold us. let the circle be open but > : never broken." > > "Put the Animaniacs tapes in the VCR. He loved that show. And then > a lot of old B movies..." "Animaniacs." Roland smiles and shakes his head. "Appropriate...I _hate_ those obnoxious little twits." *sniff* > : radio free colorado(tm) starts playing: a medley of swing interspersed > : with the grateful dead and other random songs...but not 'suicide is > : painless'. > > "Truckin'. They have to play Truckin'. There was a thread once where > people were telling what the theme song to the movie of the story of > their life would be, and that's what he said." "Oh Light, why am I not surprised..." > : (leslie, don't cry) > > "I can't help it," Leslie says, "I wanted to meet him someday, and > give him a real hug, and scratch his ears. I'm sure he knew how > much I cared about him, but I still wanted the chance to *tell* > him, face to face," More tears spilling down her cheeks, she > adds, "This is the first time in my life I've ever lost someone > I really cared about." > > > Leslie. I thought he was too stubborn to die... Oh, why should the spirit of mortal be proud?/ Like a fast-flittering meteor, a fast-flying cloud,/ a flash of the lightning, a break of the wave/ he passes from this life to his rest in the grave. (William Knox-1824) "I remembered half of this from the issue of Crisis where the Flash dies. I reached into one of my boxes, pulled out a comic to see which box it was...and had Crisis 8 in my hand." "Cry if you need to, Leslie. We lose our loves all too soon...we have to honor them." A VR hug, if you want one. -- Truth beyond Paradox. Roland X, Freelance Immortal "Do not become your enemy to defeat your enemy." -epitaph, Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!news ~From: lightlrd@mail.tiac.net (The Unloved) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:51:54 GMT Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. ~Lines: 10 Message-ID: <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lightlrd.tiac.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 The Unloved pokes his head out from his dark corner. He looks confused and upset. "I know I've been wrapped up in my own problems, as of late... and as a result I missed something important. Can someone please tell about the dear departed... who he was and how it happened?" ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Chivalry is not dead. It just smells funny." -- The Unloved Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: "Lydia M. Uribe" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 07:51:47 -0700 Organization: Claremont Shelter for Maladjusted Singers ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3225AE83.6A7C@ibm.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <4vu4r8$3ai@babylon5.babcom.com> <3223B058.11AE@Titan.SFASU.EDU> <322478D0.4CA4@lvld.hp.com> ~Reply-To: uribe@ibm.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ont-ca11-33.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 9:56:49 AM CDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I) Randy Martens wrote: > Soprano smiles through her tears. "Sorry, I never saw Carl scowling. Despite (or perhaps because of?) his Kzinti persona here, Carl in person was never anything but polite and soft-spoken in my presence." Soprano -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lydia M. Uribe, Rancho Cucamonga, CA uribe@ix.netcom.com | | Cats, quilts, and diving: what more could anyone ask? | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!mcsun!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!firesong.demon.co.uk!firesong ~From: Firesong ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:09:04 +0100 Organization: SPand Enterprises ~Lines: 33 Distribution: world Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: firesong.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: firesong.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 1.12 Firesong notes that barbara trumpinski spake thusly. >kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called >speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl >was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone >out there can help, please do." > >she raises her glass in a silent toast. > And he reads the other posts before returning here to place his own. Goodbye Speaker, our minds seldom met, our attitudes almost never, but you were right about the facts, you were always that. Hey Mike, have you got a good dark mead? A nice moody drink, mead. You can glower in th corner over it properly. To Speaker to Minerals, not a man to trifle with. > >-- >kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski >/\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" >{=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're > ~ not anywhere at all?' -- "It's not unknown for Men to use sex to get what they want." - Daphne "How can we use sex to get what we want? Sex _IS_ what we want." - Frasier Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!betty.bway.net!news ~From: nyjtm ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:15:10 -0700 Organization: bway.net, part of Outernet, Inc. in New York City ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3225B3FE.3A6A@bway.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial12.bway.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) The Tin Woodman sits slumped at a table in the corner, his oil can reassuringly near. rohr@bham.mindspring.com wrote: > > Thinking is always a good thing, and it is always wiser to engage the brain > before applying the fingers to the keyboard. Damn, I wish I could say what I > want, but it doesn't seem to be working too well. It figures. "I think that puts StM's approach to the universe *very* well." > Mike, a bacardi and coke, please. "One for me too, Mike." The Tin Woodman joins the crowd waiting for the chalk line, his visor pulled well down over his eyes. - Jim Mullins Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.radix.net!news ~From: "Chris Barnhart (TechnoPup)" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 01:16:36 GMT Organization: RadixNet Internet Services ~Lines: 91 Message-ID: <01bb9548$03bca820$22b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com> <4vvd7n$7i9@eagle.ais.net> <32249D7C.128F@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin17.annex5.radix.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 A quiet voice begins somewhere at the back of the room CROSSING THE BAR Sunset and evening star, And one clear call for me! And may there be no moaning of the bar, When I put out to sea, But such a tide as moving seems asleep, Too full for sound and foam, When that which drew from out the boundless deep Turns again home. Twilight and evening bell, And after that the dark! And may there be no sadness of farewell, When I embark; For though from out our bourne of Time and Place The flood may bear me far, I hope to see my Pilot face to face When I have crossed the bar. ....those who look see pup wipe a very old tear from his eye as he tucks the yellowed bit of paper with the nicely engraved cursive writing back into the folds of his jacket -- ______________________________________________________________________ _ Chris Barnhart - TechnoPup | "Verbosity leads to unclear, cbarnhart@radix.net | inarticulate things." http://www.radix.net/~cbarnhart | -Dan Quayle ________________________________|_____________________________________ _ Looking Wolf wrote in article <32249D7C.128F@rand.nidlink.com>... > Roland X wrote: > > > > > Carl would, if he were truly dead, be rolling over in his grave over the > > > self-serving weeping occuring here at this moment. You tip your vain > > > and virtual glasses to yourselves: no other. Enjoy your sentimental > > > trip. Carl would have none of it. Carl needed help in his present, > > > not in this one. Let it be. > > > > Indeed he would. And if he were alive, he'd come back and roast us > > all for mourning him on flimsy evidence. > > As for that mourning, I'm quite certain that he knew enough about > > the grieving process to know that a funeral is held for the survivors > > as much as, if not more than, for the dead. We mourn for his passing > > because we are dimished thereby. > > And if we wish him well in whatever lies beyond, that is our business. > > The wolf nods. "Grief is almost always for those left behind, and there > is nothing wrong with that. Knowing that one for whom you care is gone, > effectively forever, is a painful, empty feeling. Just because someone > is large-hearted enough to want no grief at their passing does not mean > they would despise those who are hurt by it." > > ...Looking Wolf > > Sunset, and evening star, > and one clear call for me. > And may there be no moaning of the bar > when I put out to sea. > > --Alfred, Lord Tennyson > (title of poem and proper scansion regretfully forgotten) > ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!jobone!news2.acs.oakland.edu!condor.ic.net!branch.com!aanews.merit.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!esti ~From: esti@haven.uchicago.edu (Paul A. Estin) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker X-Nntp-Posting-Host: haven.uchicago.edu Message-ID: ~Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: U. Michigan Cognitive Psychology ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 02:18:56 GMT ~Lines: 53 Paul the Snark, an old-timer long absent (last here regularly in March '93), pops his head into the Place briefly (thanking to Elaine for forwarding the bad news to him)... "I was going to say more, but I saw a couple of Polymath's posts which probably summed up my reaction, so I'll just reiterate what he said..." The Polymath wrote: >I considered Carl Lydick my friend and Speaker to Minerals an occasional >ally and occasional embarrassment. I'm going to miss them both. ... >I wish more of the people who knew Carl only through his net persona >could have met him in person. He still had his faults (a whole >different set), but he was also soft spoken, gentle and polite. I >don't know what it is about the net that brings out the worst in some >people like that, but Carl did have another side. I did have the good fortune to meet Carl in person, shortly before I left a.c (due in some part to the tone in which he posted as StM). Carl was indeed much more pleasant in person that I would've expected, and I'm sorry he's gone from this world. Paul Andrew Estin "Haiku's inventor U. Michigan Cognitive Psychology must have had seven fingers estin@umich.edu on his middle hand." P.S. As an aside: Yes, the net and its anonymity does sometimes bring out the worst in folks, but I think the phenomenon is more general than that-- it's not so much that *people* change as that the entire nature of net *interaction* is different from in Real Life (iRL). It's partly due to missing RL conversational cues, and partly due to having a lack of personal connection (which is not quite the same as "anonymity"). IME, both problems are minimized, to a surprising degree, when the folks interacting are those who *do* already know each other in Real Life, even if only briefly. For example... I didn't start posting on a.c until after I'd been to a RealSpace Gathering, and I retain a sense of civility to anyone I've met there-- even when I think they're full of BS!-- that I'm less capable of with those I haven't met iRL. Similarly, after leaving Callahan's I co-founded a private general-topic discussion list on email; because many of us know each other from RL, interactions tend to be much smoother, for a variety of reasons. However, sometimes we did have people leave the list after repeated disagreements; in all such cases, those leaving and those providing the most pressure to leave were folks who had NOT met each other in RL. Indeed, I was often mystified that there was a problem brewing in the first place, since I'd RL-met both sides of people and was used to "giving the benefit of the doubt" whenever *either* side's remarks were potentially ambiguous. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!munnari.OZ.AU!metro!metro!news ~From: alh@Physics.usyd.edu.au (Shonias) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 02:52:32 GMT Organization: School of Physics, University of Sydney, Australia ~Lines: 34 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <5030lg$qmg@metro.usyd.edu.au> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: suphys.physics.usyd.edu.au In article <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com>, Leslie wrote: >"I can't help it," Leslie says, "I wanted to meet him someday, and >give him a real hug, and scratch his ears. I'm sure he knew how >much I cared about him, but I still wanted the chance to *tell* >him, face to face," More tears spilling down her cheeks, she >adds, "This is the first time in my life I've ever lost someone >I really cared about." Shonias has been quiet listening to others and not knowing what to say, or whether to say anything. She didnt even know why she didn't know what to say, and then this reminded her: > >Leslie. I thought he was too stubborn to die... "I've just been too numb to say anything, or indeed feel anything to inspire any words. My beagle died on Sunday, after a short illness, I thought she was too stubborn to die too. And I loved her more than I've ever loved anyone else. I'm not sure what I'm saying, just that I missed StM when he wasn't here temporarily, I know I will miss him when I've got emotions left to use, amd I'm not ordering a bacardi and diet coke, because I can't stand the stuff." Shonias stands laughing and crying and remembering the souls that have departed recently (three friends of hers, one of someone else's in a two week period.) Shonias Q'Tari -- *********************************** Thunder and lightning in the dark Light up the fires inside my heart. *********************************** Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nidlink.com!usenet ~From: Looking Wolf ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:38:23 -0700 Organization: NetLink, Inc. ~Lines: 42 Message-ID: <3225D58F.315D@rand.nidlink.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223086C.1F8F@lvld.hp.com> <4vvd7n$7i9@eagle.ais.net> <32249D7C.128F@rand.nidlink.com> <01bb9548$03bca820$22b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm6-5.nidlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) Chris Barnhart (TechnoPup) wrote: > > A quiet voice begins somewhere at the back of the room > > CROSSING THE BAR > > Sunset and evening star, > And one clear call for me! > And may there be no moaning of the bar, > When I put out to sea, > > But such a tide as moving seems asleep, > Too full for sound and foam, > When that which drew from out the boundless deep > Turns again home. > > Twilight and evening bell, > And after that the dark! > And may there be no sadness of farewell, > When I embark; > > For though from out our bourne of Time and Place > The flood may bear me far, > I hope to see my Pilot face to face > When I have crossed the bar. > > ....those who look see pup wipe a very old tear from his eye as he > tucks the yellowed bit of paper with the nicely engraved cursive > writing back into the folds of his jacket The wolf listens attentively as Pup finishes the poem. "Yes," he whispers at its conclusion. "Thank you." The wolf smiles sadly. "I really wish I had found this Place earlier," he says. "I was waiting anxiously for Speaker's return. I really wanted a chance to argue with him. Now that will have to wait a few decades." He rises and walks out of the bar. The faint sound of mournful wolfsong can be heard from somewhere outside. ...Looking Wolf Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nidlink.com!usenet ~From: Looking Wolf ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:45:59 -0700 Organization: NetLink, Inc. ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3225D757.53CB@rand.nidlink.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3225B3FE.3A6A@bway.net> <504769$agg@izzy4.izzy.net> <504ca9$il@decaxp.harvard.edu> <504et3$led@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm6-5.nidlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) Gareth L Owen wrote: > > "I reckon there should be a 'Tycho Crater' web page > or something. Something kinda permanent. Somewhere > we can go and remember." "That is an excellent idea. I'm willing to donate both the space for the page and the time for designing it, if someone will but tell me where and how to retrieve all the Plaque posts. "We cannot go to the real Plaque (if there's any justice in the Universe, there's really one up there), but we can build a monument here." ...Looking Wolf Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!ra.nrl.navy.mil!dbriggs ~From: dbriggs@rira5.nrl.navy.mil (Daniel Briggs) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 04:24:30 GMT Organization: Naval Research Laboratory ~Lines: 98 Message-ID: <50361u$4ji@ra.nrl.navy.mil> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rira5.nrl.navy.mil Dan'l opens the door, and wanders back to Mike. Not too many folks in the bar place the face, but there are a few. He's still as tall and bearded and bespectacled as he ever was, with a tendency to dress in blues, browns and black. A dollar bill goes down on the bar. "The Bacardi & Diet Coke routine is a nice touch, but I think I'll pass, Mike. I never could stand the stuff, and after high school I grew up enough to say so. Carl being the individualist that he was, perhaps it's a better tribute that I drink my own preference. How about a Gin and Tonic? Having foregone the change and stepped towards the chalk line, he's not really sure what he wants to say. *think* "I'm not even sure I can say that I liked Carl. I first showed up in the Place more than 6 years ago, and I think I did then. Or at least I tried to. Certainly we had enough common background that I kept feeling like we *ought* to get on better than we did. I can be a real stickler for precision in language myself, and I've always respected his logical argument and dedication to his ideals. I actually probably got on with him as well as anyone but his close friends, in that I was never personally the object of his flames, but still managed to occasionally exchange civil posts or email with him. But he could be a real *mean* bastard, and I like to think that I am not so by nature. I strive to avoid being mean without the strongest provocation. I suspect that Carl probably felt much the same way, but apparently he found such provocation nearly everywhere. "Will I miss him? Yes and no. Yes I'll miss many aspects of him. And I'm sure that comp.os.vms lost one of its most valuable resources. But frankly, I'll probably also show up here more often than I would have otherwise. Is it just me, or has the character of the flame wars, both from and about Carl gotten hotter in the last couple of years? Maybe I just lost patience with it and nothing has changed but me. But for whatever reason I lost the ability to read past it. I've never liked killfiles. It just seems like looking at the world through blinders to me. I don't like the feeling of not knowing what I'm not seeing. I read news by title, selecting threads, so I don't read most flamewars. But even when I don't choose to read flame threads, they do color the character of the group. So when I got tired of people yelling at each other for the ooompteenth time, I left. I don't hold it against him, though. In the last few years I'd come to regard him as something of an elemental force of nature. He was who he was, in a way that few of us are. But in exactly the same way I might move back from a campfire that is too hot for comfort, I sometimes distanced myself from Carl and the areas he frequented. One doesn't curse a fire for being hot. The obvious difference and counterargument is "Yes, but a person doesn't have a choice about being hot, and a person does have a choice about being mean." Y'know, with Carl I really wonder about that. "I caught him once or twice on quite unambiguous points of astronomy. I don't think he ever admitted he was wrong in so many words, but somewhere along the way he ended up owing me a beer over it. He wasn't very good about admitting he was wrong, certainly. For a couple of years I was looking forward to collecting it, since I was really curious about the man behind the keyboard. But I never got around to it, and as the flame wars around him grew hotter, I lost interest in doing so. The last time I visited Pasadena I didn't look him up. Now I wish I had. "Lest I be thought too crass when talking about Carl, whom after I all I never actually met, I'll comment that I stood up at my own father's funeral, while crying, and called him a bastard in front of maybe 400 or 500 people. I pointed out that he had been an alcoholic, and was sometimes very difficult to live with. I then pointed out that the crowd filling the chapel to standing room only and spilling out into the lobby and more was proof of how much he'd meant to everyone there. How strong were his great good points, to be outbalance his flaws and still mean so much to so many people! I upset some people doing that. But I called it as I saw it for my father, and I can do no less for Carl. I trust the parallel is obvious. "Well Carl, you are gone and the world is a less varied place without you. As annoying as you could be, I think we're poorer for your absence. I hope you're at peace. Dan'l ponders his now empty glass, and the forming tradition of unbroken glasses in the fire place. He turns back to the house. "Folks, I'm sorry. That just doesn't seem like quite the right thing to me. We're building a little shrine of glasses and photos here. That fireplace is meant to be used, and someday soon *someone* is going to have to clean it out and deal with all the clinging emotional baggage we've left stuck to those glasses. I'll not add to that person's burden. All things and all people pass. For me, the plaque is enough. "Carl, if you can hear me, or to your memory if you cannot: I hope you respected me as I did you. I'm glad to have known you. Dan'l hurls his glass into the fireplace, but his juggler's aim is true. The glass sails past the unbroken stack and shatters alone on the bricks behind. *CRASH* | Dr. Daniel Briggs (dbriggs@rira.nrl.navy.mil) [ USPA D-18486 ] | Naval Research Laboratory / US Naval Observatory [ DoD #387 ] | 4555 Overlook Ave. SW, Washington, DC 20375 (202) 767-8474 | Dart: MC Ot+W H 5 Y L+ W C+ I++ T++ A+ H+ S+ V+ P++/P B+ Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 09:25:11 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 10 Message-ID: <504987$hsj@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> <502kj1$gvi@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu Kitten: >wonders if this has been a long week for everyone, or just her. Its been a hellva week. Hugs, Dreamy Jim. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 09:40:46 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <504a5e$nv2@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu >"He--was a lot of different things, to different people. > >"He was someone I loved." Thank you Leslie, you worded it better than I could. Hugs, DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 09:48:44 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <504akc$j3g@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu John Edwards wrote: >shots? I've personally never heard this (although, I'll be the >first to admit, I'm a little out of touch with newer trends of >diabetes care) It was because his blood sugar and insulin level fluctuated. He had to be very careful and check it on a regular basis. A couple of years ago he had to go to the hospital for it. He coughed up blood in the emergency room. He had to keep from passing out as evidently they misdiagnosed him in the er. DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!news ~From: Ager or Persson ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:33:35 -0600 Organization: Internet Connect, Inc. The Wisconsin ISP 414-476-4266 http://www.inc.net ~Lines: 81 Message-ID: <3225D46F.6934@discover-net.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.230.195.83 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I) Leslie (and somebocy else!) wrote: > > : radio free colorado(tm) starts playing: a medley of swing interspersed > : with the grateful dead and other random songs...but not 'suicide is > : painless'. > > "Truckin'. They have to play Truckin'. There was a thread once where > people were telling what the theme song to the movie of the story of > their life would be, and that's what he said." Truckin' -------- Truckin', got my chips cashed in, Keep truckin', like the do-dah man Together, more or less in line, Just keep truckin' on. Arrows of neon and flashin' marquees out on main street, Chicago, New York, Detroit and it's all on the same street. Your typical city involved in a typical daydream. Hang it up and see what tommorrow brings. Dallas, got a soft machine; Houston, too close to New Orleans; New York's got the ways and means; But just won't let you be, oh no. Most of the cats that you meet on the streets speak of true love. Most of the time they're sittin' and cryin' at home. One of these days they know they better get goin' Out of the door and down on the street all alone. Truckin', like the do-dah man Once told me "Gotta play your hand. Sometimes your cards ain't worth a dime If you don't lay'em down." Sometimes the light's all shinin' on me; Other times I can barely see. Lately it occurs to me What a long, strange trip it's been. Now what in the world ever became of sweet Jane? She's lost her sparkle, you know she isn't the same. Livin' on reds, and vitamin C, and cocaine, All a friend can say is ain't it a shame. Truckin', up to Buffalo, Been thinkin' you got to mellow slow. It takes time, you pick a place to go And just keep truckin' on. Sittin' and starin' out of the hotel window. Got a tip they're gonna kick the door in again. I like to get some sleep before I travel, But if you got a warrant, I guess you're gonna come in. Busted, down on Bourbon Street. Set up, like a bowling pin. Knocked down, it get's to wearin' thin, They just won't let you be, oh no. You're sick of hangin' around and you'd like to travel; Get tired of travelin' and you want to settle down. I guess they can't revoke your soul for tryin', Get out of the door and light out and look all around. Sometimes the light's all shinin' on me; Other times I can barely see. Lately it occurs to me What a long, strange trip it's been. Truckin' , I'm a goin' home, Whoa whoa baby, back where I belong, Back home, sit down and patch my bones And git back truckin' on. Hey now git back truckin' home. Beth Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.izzy.net!news.izzy.net!not-for-mail ~From: sewiv@news.izzy.net (Sanford E. Walke IV) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 09:50:01 -0400 Organization: Isthmus Corporation ~Lines: 8 Message-ID: <504769$agg@izzy4.izzy.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3225B3FE.3A6A@bway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: izzy.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] I know this is a dumb question, but someone is saving this thread, right? This needs to go in the a.c archives. -- Sandy sewiv@izzy.net "Fatty tissue, convolutions, chemicals and tiny lightning....this is all my head has to work with, so I cut it a lot of slack." -- JT I don't speak for anyone but myself, and sometimes not even that. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: glo@io.com (Gareth L Owen) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 11:01:39 -0500 Organization: Illuminati Online ~Lines: 29 Message-ID: <504et3$led@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3225B3FE.3A6A@bway.net> <504769$agg@izzy4.izzy.net> <504ca9$il@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com In article <504ca9$il@decaxp.harvard.edu>, Claudia Mastroianni wrote: >Sanford E. Walke IV (sewiv@news.izzy.net) wrote: >: I know this is a dumb question, but someone is saving this thread, right? > >I've been considering it. But all of a.c is already archived. What I think >I may do is make this the impetus to dig up all the plaque posts I can, as I >once told DJ I would. > >: This needs to go in the a.c archives. > >Of course, any time anyone nominates a "favorite post" for my favorite >posts page, it goes up as soon as I can html it (minimal html). > >Claudia >http://www.tiac.net/users/cmarie/callahans-index.html "I reckon there should be a 'Tycho Crater' web page or something. Something kinda permanent. Somewhere we can go and remember." The Stranger -- Gareth L Owen |\_/| Roleplayer, karate man, shadowrunner glo@io.com (o o) Itinerant mountaineer and cynical idealist finger for PGP key \_/ http://www.io.com/~glo/ "Think for yourself - that means YOU citizen!" Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.PBI.net!usenet ~From: The Polymath ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:16:35 -0700 Organization: Polymath Enterprises ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <322608B3.33A2@pacbell.net> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~Reply-To: polymath@pacbell.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-206-171-250-76.vntrcs.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) Alan B. Combs wrote: >In article <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) wrote: >>Why on earth would a non-Insulin dependent diabetic take >>shots? ... >... in IDDM (insulin dependent diabetes melletis, according to >the modern jargon), the pancreas does *not* produce insulin. In NIDDM, >the pancreas does produce it, but perhaps not enough ... My understanding is that, towards the end, Carl's body stopped producing insulin altogether and he became totally insulin dependent. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP) polymath@pacbell.net <<<===PLEASE NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS http://www.babcom.com/polymath <<<===AND NEW HOME PAGE URL (818) 882-6309 Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!emetine.phr.utexas.edu!user ~From: ACombs@mail.utexas.edu (Alan B. Combs) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:12:40 -0500 Organization: College of Pharmacy, Univ. of Texas ~Lines: 100 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: emetine.phr.utexas.edu On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:58:45 -0500 in alt.callahans, Alan B. Combs said: Leslie: >All of a sudden, Leslie realizes the irony...this will be the last time >Speaker's name is in the title of a thread... [ Alan: Very excellent posting, Leslie. As well as helping your grieving process, this will be very helpful to many of the rest of us. I have been emotionally wiped the last couple of days, along with many others. Alan (First Posting): >: I did not like his anger (or at least what I perceived as anger, though he >: said it was not) and his intolerance for the fuzzy, ambiguous, >: easy-to-misinterpret nature of words. I do affirm the strong, wonderful, >: helpful resource he was. He fought ignorance, diabetes, and congestive >: heart failure. I wonder if lack of hope for the future, and similar lack >: of hope for the present contributed to the anger we saw at the end of his >: postings. Until we are able to walk in his shoes, perhaps, even the anger >: and flames should be forgiven. Leslie: >"Don't jump to conclusions. There were a lot of flames then, true, >but don't forget that he was involved in defending himself against >misinterpretations. And perhaps it was just chemically pure chance >that several subjects came up at once that fit his criteria for >'things which deserve to be flamed.' Alan: This possibility is stipulated. Leslie: >Painting him as being so >unself-aware of his own emotional state does him a major disservice." Alan: I feel this is an example of the all too frequently fuzzy and maleable meanings of words, resulting in the sending of messages that were not intended. I did not mean to imply that Carl was self-unaware. To the contrary, I believe he was *highly* self-aware, something that would clearly add to the angst of his situation. I apologize, if my posting was interpreted otherwise. Alan (First Posting): >: To Carl J. Lydick, a *man*. The journey is not over. Albeit, you >: rejected the concept, may God's grace go with you. Leslie: >"I hope you aren't referring to the God of the Old and New Testament. >StM really hated that guy a lot. The God of the Deists, he'd be >willing to go along with..." Alan: Yeah, I was referring to the God of the Testaments -- and I did do it on purpose. Very clearly, Carl did not like any aspect about Him. My only response is that the God that Carl hated and the God I cannot, dare not hate are *not* the same Person, even if the same name is used. Inasmuch as we believers have, by our behaviors, provided Carl (and others) with evidence for his beliefs, we will be held accountable. On the other hand, one of the frequent comments people have made in this thread is about Carl's inability or refusal to concede that there might be any legit interpretation of what was said, other than his. I think that ambiguity in conveyed meaning, even though none was intended, is one of the tragedies of human existence. Because of this aspect of Carl's nature, his ambiguity-blindness, I suspect he would not have been capable of receiving any theological argument, not matter how well-framed it might have been. Thus, I have not gone deeply into apologetics (explanation and interpretation of doctrine) in several of the recent relevant threads. I admit this may be a cop-out, however. Finally, (as was developed by C.S. Lewis), it is much better to be a person that hates God, rather than one that is apathetic. Hate is active, the person cares, and God can deal with that. When a person just does not give a rat's ass, that person cannot be moved. Alan (First Posting): >: C R A S H (then hugs and tears around) Leslie: >Thank you. Alan: Also, Leslie, thank you. Your comments, history, and caring continue to be very helpful. This is my second version of this message. I was wrestling with myself as to whether I should just email this to you, or more generally post it to the friends in alt.callahans. I had just chosen the latter when my computer bombed. I think some of my initial wording was stronger, but it is gone forever. So be it. -- Alan B. Combs College of Pharmacy University of Texas Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!emetine.phr.utexas.edu!user ~From: ACombs@mail.utexas.edu (Alan B. Combs) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:21:56 -0500 Organization: College of Pharmacy, Univ. of Texas ~Lines: 28 Message-ID: ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: emetine.phr.utexas.edu In article <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) wrote: > Wait a minute. > Why on earth would a non-Insulin dependent diabetic take > shots? I've personally never heard this (although, I'll be the > first to admit, I'm a little out of touch with newer trends of > diabetes care) > (BTW, I've been insulin dependent since I was 14) > Would you mind explaining this? > Briefly, John, in IDDM (insulin dependent diabetes melletis, according to the modern jargon), the pancreas does *not* produce insulin. In NIDDM, the pancreas does produce it, but perhaps not enough, particularly if you stress its capacity to produce adequate amounts of insulin. They used to call this maturity-onset (vs. juvenile) diabetes. (Parenthetically, drugs that lower blood glucose only work in NIDDM. They increase its release, or increase its efficacy, depending on the drug.) Alan -- Alan B. Combs College of Pharmacy University of Texas Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.cs.utah.edu!news.cc.utah.edu!news ~From: Kate ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:45:01 -0700 Organization: My what? ~Lines: 36 Message-ID: <32261D6D.4B2C@hsc.utah.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kdullum.med.utah.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Firesong wrote: > > Firesong notes that barbara trumpinski spake > thusly. > >kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called > >speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl > >was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone > >out there can help, please do." > > > >she raises her glass in a silent toast. > > > > And he reads the other posts before returning here to place his own. > > Goodbye Speaker, our minds seldom met, our attitudes almost never, but > you were right about the facts, you were always that. > > To Speaker to Minerals, not a man to trifle with. > "I didn't know Speaker at all," Kate says, ordering another drink. "I think I interacted with him on one thread (I had a reference handy that day). To be honest, I was a bit frightened of incurring his wrath, which I observed in several threads on which I lurked. "He struck me as a brilliant, troubled individual. What was bloody obvious to him, wasn't always so clear to those he was talking to, it seems to me. "To Speaker, and to Carl. May he have found the afterlife or reincarnation he wished or the bliss of oblivion if he didn't want an afterlife." <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kate Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:57:21 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32255afe.3360926@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co13-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 3:58:05 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 The Ever-so-wise lightlrd@mail.tiac.net (The Unloved) once said: ->The Unloved pokes his head out from his dark corner. He looks ->confused and upset. "I know I've been wrapped up in my own problems, ->as of late... and as a result I missed something important. Can ->someone please tell about the dear departed... who he was and how it ->happened?" Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, depends on how you look at it) Speaker apparently lost his net access before you got here. I think Leslie summed him up better than I can. I do know that he made me *think* several times. John Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:01:32 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 32 Message-ID: <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co13-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 4:02:16 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 The Ever-so-wise miller@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Kelly Miller) once said: ->The Polymath writes: -> ->>Carl suffered from insulin dependent diabetes and all its attendant ->>consequences (pick a symptom, any symptom, he probably had it in ->>spades at some point). He also suffered from congestive heart failure ->>and was scheduled for 6x bypass surgery early this year, but changed ->>his mind for reasons likely known only to himself. (Supposedly, the ->>operation would have prolonged his life, but not improved its quality. ->>Carl decided it wasn't worth it). -> ->For what it's worth, Carl was not an insulin dependent diabetic, but a ->non-insulin dependent diabetic who took insulin. -> ->Not a major point, perhaps, but Carl always demanded precision... -> Wait a minute. Why on earth would a non-Insulin dependent diabetic take shots? I've personally never heard this (although, I'll be the first to admit, I'm a little out of touch with newer trends of diabetes care) (BTW, I've been insulin dependent since I was 14) Would you mind explaining this? John Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nidlink.com!usenet ~From: Looking Wolf ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:46:07 -0700 Organization: NetLink, Inc. ~Lines: 48 Message-ID: <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-21.nidlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159014 Chris Barnhart wrote: > > I absolutely disagree. It *did* bring out the worst in him. Calling > someone a moron or shit for brains or anything else like that hardly > EVER causes them to think. And, as anal-retentive and nit picky as > Carl was, it should have been a fairly obvious distinction for him > that saying someone is stupid is much different than saying something > someone says is stupid. > Just because he was bright doesn't give him special license to treat > people like crap on an almost (from my perspective) continuous basis. > Anything StM might have had to say to me regarding science, I can > read from a book without the insults, thank you very much. > My impressions of Carl's flaming tendencies were that he had a lot of > inner rage he couldn't take out elsewhere, that he had a terminal > Napoleonic complex, that he had little regards for how anyone felt, > other than himself. "I had wondered about this myself," says the wolf, "so, after I learned a bit more about Carl (posthumously, unfortunately), I asked a friend of mine who is a psychologist. She said that Carl's medical conditions could easily have affected his personality. "Diabetes can cause mood swings, and even mild personality disorders, as the brain is continually short-changed in its food supply. Also, Carl had congestive heart disease, I have been told, and was scheduled for a sextuple bypass operation. He must have been in incredible pain. That pain, combined with whatever medication he was taking, could have caused long-term problems, including his general irascibility. "There is also this to consider: a number of people said that he was soft-spoken in person. It could be that it was only online that he was able to vent all the anger and pain he was in, and so it was the online communities that bore the brunt. "One last thought: I read that Carl refused the bypass operation, 'for reasons known only to himself'. That sort of seemingly irrational act just might have been due to encroaching arteriosclerosis, which does not only affect the elderly, and which can make someone extremely edgy and angry. "Pain does strange things to the brain, and diabetes doesn't help. While this does not necessarily excuse bad behavior (and I doubt Carl would want an excuse anyway), it may help others understand it." ...Looking Wolf Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: "Lydia M. Uribe" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:35:31 -0700 Organization: Claremont Shelter for Maladjusted Singers ~Lines: 51 Message-ID: <32263753.193C@ibm.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <502vpe$3fk@xanadu.io.com> ~Reply-To: uribe@ibm.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ont-ca7-12.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 7:40:39 PM CDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I) Leslie wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:51:54 GMT in alt.callahans, > The Unloved said: > : The Unloved pokes his head out from his dark corner. He looks > : confused and upset. "I know I've been wrapped up in my own problems, > : as of late... and as a result I missed something important. Can > : someone please tell about the dear departed... who he was and how it > : happened?" > > Leslie smiles wryly. "A lot of folks...myself included...tended to > refer to him as 'that s.o.b.' 'Dear departed...' doesn't *quite* > seem to fit Speaker-to-Minerals... > > "We're not sure yet just how he died...my god, we don't even know > WHEN he died, I just realized...we only know he was discovered dead > by his landlord last Friday, the 23rd. > > "As to who he was...ah well, that's not easy. His name was Carl J. > Lydick, and he was 40 years old. He was a VAX/VMS god and was the > terror and genius of comp.os.vms as well as other groups, like > misc.health.diabetes, and alt.callahans. His a.c. personna was > that of a Kzin from the Niven _Ringworld_ universe (but I always > privately believed he was a Kzin who'd been raised by Vulcans...) > > "He's listed in the Net.Legends FAQ maintained by Dave DeLaney > (in part 4), but it's an outdated entry by now. > > "He was the original immoveable object, and that inspired many to try to > play irresistable force...and a lot of them failed, rather spectacularly. > > "He was complex and complicated and just plain didn't *think* the same > way most other folks do, although most people tried to fit him into > a category they were more familiar with, causing them to misunderstand > him by quite a wide margin. And often he didn't take the time and effort > to explain himself--until he'd started an argument... > > "He--was a lot of different things, to different people. > > "He was someone I loved." > > Leslie. Thanks, Leslie... Soprano -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lydia M. Uribe, Rancho Cucamonga, CA uribe@ibm.net| | Cats, quilts, and diving: what more could anyone ask? | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!mcsun!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news2.interlog.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 14:36:04 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 44 Message-ID: <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:22:30 -0700 in alt.callahans, The Polymath said: : I wish more of the people who knew Carl only through his net persona : could have met him in person. He still had his faults (a whole : different set), but he was also soft spoken, gentle and polite. I : don't know what it is about the net that brings out the worst in some : people like that, but Carl did have another side. "The net didn't 'bring out the worst in him,' not in the sense that you mean it, I think. Over and over and over again, every time the subject came up, he repeated one thing: his flames were deliberate and calculated for effect, the effect of making it *crystal clear* what he thought of something. The more he disagreed with something, the more important it was to him that there be no chance that anyone anywhere might mistake him for agreeing, instead. Pure selfishness on his part; but the effect of his flames on the receipient was a non-issue to him, with the exception of his intent to make them *think* about what they'd said. "One of the precepts he lived by was the idea that inaction is itself an action; that it is an action to chose not to act. And that lead to the ethic he held to, that if he saw something that was wrong or inaccurate, he had to act to correct it; he believed that not acting to correct a wrong made a person thereafter partially responsible for the consequences of that wrong. And if a thing was wrong, no matter how large or small, he tackled it with equal force. Sometimes that meant he went after mosquitoes with an elephant gun...but, yet, the I can count the times he was mistaken about there being a mosquito on the fingers of one hand. I think he was rather universally perceived as 'overreacting'--but, to his way of thinking, his reactions were exactly what was required. "The way I always described him was that he was an unreasonable son of a bitch--but he wasn't *unreasonably* unreasonable. He was the original Nit-Picker From Hell[tm], though, and didn't argue with me when I said that he could be tediously pedantic at times." Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mcsun!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news2.interlog.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 14:48:44 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: <504omc$5ov@zot.io.org> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:09:04 +0100 in alt.callahans, Firesong said: : Goodbye Speaker, our minds seldom met, our attitudes almost never, but : you were right about the facts, you were always that. "No he wasn't. He screwed up sometimes, once in a while in a big way, too. He was, after all, only human..." : To Speaker to Minerals, not a man to trifle with. "You got that right. It was hard to tease him too, he always took me so *literally*...I teased him that I was going to have to start putting a tag on things just to make sure he didn't miss the point..." Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.wildstar.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!ultra.sonic.net!miwok!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: "Lydia M. Uribe" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:25:58 -0700 Organization: Claremont Shelter for Maladjusted Singers ~Lines: 56 Message-ID: <32264326.10BD@ibm.net> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <5019uv$659@zot.io.org> <32249C8F.51DF@pacbell.net> ~Reply-To: uribe@ibm.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ont-ca7-12.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 8:31:14 PM CDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I) The Polymath wrote: > Leslie wrote: > >"He said that a *BIG* part of the reason for *postponing* (AFAIK) the > >surgery was that he was very reluctant to burden someone with the > >responsibility of ordering the plug to be pulled, should the surgery > >result in his becoming a vegetable. He didn't want to screw up the lady's > >life, even if it perhaps cost him his." ... > > "The lady" may wish to comment herself when she gets to this post. > I can testify she was far more concerned for Carl's health than any > inconvenience it might have caused her and repeatedly tried to > contact him for details, paperwork, etc. While I admire his motives, > I think, at the end of the day, he did her an injustice and a > disservice. Soprano smiles sadly at the Polymath, and says softly, "Thanks, love." She then turns to the rest of the Place. "I've been debating how much of this to relate here, given Carl's recent reluctance to talk about himself. Carl contacted me by email late last year, saying that I was one of several people he was considering for durable power of attorney for health care for his surgery, and asking if I would be willing to take on that responsibility. After several email exchanges, I agreed. He knew, because I'd told him in so many words, that I was aware of what the responsibility might entail, and he also knew that I had at least one major source of emotional support in the event that the decision to "pull the plug" became necessary. When I heard nothing further from him on the subject, I assumed that he had decided to designate one of the others on his list as his agent. "Carl always insisted upon being taken literally at his word. I assumed that he would accord me the same courtesy. According to Leslie's posting, evidently I was wrong. While I understand and appreciate his concerns, I deeply regret that he did not discuss them with me. "Carl, I wish we had known each other better -- it might have prevented a misunderstanding, and who knows, you might still have been with us. I know that you scoffed at the idea of God, but I also remember you sitting in the front pew during a church service in which I sang. I remember you defiantly riding every roller-coaster ride at Disneyland with Abner and me, despite the signs warning people with heart conditions not to ride. And I still giggle at the image that came to mind the last time I saw you when you described a hungry Kzin with a pistol in hand surrounded by monkey meat.... "Wherever you are, I hope that you're healthy -- and try not to give God too hard a time, OK? I'll miss you...." She turns to the Polymath, and buries her face in his shoulder, sobbing quietly. -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lydia M. Uribe, Rancho Cucamonga, CA uribe@ibm.net | | Cats, quilts, and diving: what more could anyone ask? | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 11:45:46 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: <503vta$c52@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <4vvu4g$ik3@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502dit$88j@mozz.unh.edu> <502ihc$n1a@medea.gp.usm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu > Kitten, i hope you and Patchmaker don't mind me borrowing that line >there 'rage against the dying of the light.' > Ode to a Kzin by DJ. [ ] kitten hugs her beloved friend..."thank you." -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.cgocable.net!n2tor.istar!ftn.net!news ~From: Ch'kai ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p Speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:47:57 -0400 Organization: ftn Internet ~Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3225F3ED.F7D@ftn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.0.180.113 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; I) Shonias wrote (amongst other things): > Doug Quarnstrom wrote: > >I do hope, however, that should news of my own death one day reach this > >news group at least one of you will have the guts to suggest the > >world has suffered no great loss. > > But Doug, when does world suffer much loss? The world suffered no > great loss at the passing of my dear beagle, but a small group of people > have suffered a lot. Same would be true of your passing I would imagine. > And those who pop up in many newsgroups, well, their passing may actually > impact on a lot of the world, it could at least be said the world has > suffered some loss. But no, the world has suffered no great loss at > the passing of Carl Lydick.>My sympathies are with those suffering from Carl's death. > > And mine. > Ch'kai, who has been following the many toasts and conversations, murmurs quietly in passing, paraphrasing: "By one man's death is all mankind diminished And therefore, never send to ask For whom the bell tolls: it tolls for thee." The world as a whole is large and anonymous, masses of strangers. Individuals - and Carl was certainly that - come and go, one by one. And personally, I think it would be worse if no-one even noticed their passing. Like Eleanor Rigby. Ch'kai ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please note change of server - I'm now at chkai@ftn.net ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!world!wgarmil ~From: wgarmil@world.std.com (Wayne S Garmil) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker Message-ID: Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:18:03 GMT ~Lines: 25 In article , Roland X wrote: > > "I remembered half of this from the issue of >Crisis where the Flash dies. I reached into one of >my boxes, pulled out a comic to see which box >it was...and had Crisis 8 in my hand." Roland, don't get me started! I'm already morning StM. I don't need to be reminded that issue (or the issue before it, where Kara (Supergirl) dies). It's bad enough we lost a real friend here, don't remind me of two "imaginary friends" I grew up with that I also lost at a time like this. I've been good for three days now (I heard about Carl's death on Tuesday), I don't want to start crying now. Ah, hell. Too late. StM is worth it. Wayne -- _ __ _ __ Who wants to live forever ' ) / // / / ) / If true love has to die? / / / o // __/ / __. __ __/ - F. Mercury & B. May (_(_/ <_ ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <504bbl$4cb@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159016 On 29 Aug 1996 15:01:09 GMT in alt.callahans, Rachel Meredith Kadel said: : He was found dead in his apartment on Friday. The cause of death is now : listed as diabetes. "I'd imagine he's objecting strenuously to that, too--he did comment once that it was more accurate to say 'died of diabetes-related complications.' One doesn't die *of* diabetes, unless..." she says, going pale. "Unless he'd quit taking his insulin. Is there a way to get more information that this?" Leslie. CC: Rachel, take 2. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I try very hard to say exactly what I mean. I'd appreciate it if you'd bear that in mind and not try to "interpret" my posts to fit your own preconceived notions if I'm posting in a serious thread. Remember: If you throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the result. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I had to see it one more time....(for those newcomers, the above was Speaker's .sig.)" Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!wariat.org!kf8nh.apk.net!news ~From: bsa@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 18:31:14 -0400 Organization: Brandon's home server in Parma, Ohio ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <5055ni$72u@kf8nh.apk.net> ~References: <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvu4g$ik3@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502dit$88j@mozz.unh.edu> <502ihc$n1a@medea.gp.usm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kf8nh.apk.net Also sprach jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) (<502ihc$n1a@medea.gp.usm.edu>): +----- | Kitten, i hope you and Patchmaker don't mind me borrowing that line | there 'rage against the dying of the light.' +--->8 Actually, I believe you're borrowing it from Dylan Thomas. "Do not go gentle into that good night/Rage, rage against the dying of the light." -- ++brandon s. allbery flying with merlin! bsa@kf8nh.apk.net telotech's "loup-guru" :-) FORZA CREW! bsa@telotech.com Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!alph02.triumf.ca!shoppa ~From: shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 15:00:35 GMT Organization: Tri-University Meson Facility ~Lines: 28 Message-ID: <504baj$59q@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: alph02.triumf.ca In article <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, John Edwards wrote: >->For what it's worth, Carl was not an insulin dependent diabetic, but a >->non-insulin dependent diabetic who took insulin. >-> >->Not a major point, perhaps, but Carl always demanded precision... >-> > Wait a minute. > Why on earth would a non-Insulin dependent diabetic take >shots? I've personally never heard this (although, I'll be the >first to admit, I'm a little out of touch with newer trends of >diabetes care) The classifications "insulin-dependent" and "non-insulin dependent" are, indeed, not always the best choice of terms. As of a few years ago, "Type I" and "Type II" were more politically correct terms - and I wouldn't be surprised if these have been replaced too. Even older terms for the same classifications are "juvenile-onset" and "adult-onset". In any event, the best treatment (in terms of normalizing blood sugars) for "non-insulin dependent" diabetics often is insulin injections. > (BTW, I've been insulin dependent since I was 14) And me, since I was 15... Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 15:01:09 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: <504bbl$4cb@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu In article <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net>, The Unloved wrote: >The Unloved pokes his head out from his dark corner. He looks >confused and upset. "I know I've been wrapped up in my own problems, >as of late... and as a result I missed something important. Can >someone please tell about the dear departed... who he was and how it >happened?" > He was found dead in his apartment on Friday. The cause of death is now listed as diabetes. Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.ios.com!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 20:07:32 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 213 Message-ID: <505esk$c0i@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. A blast from the past... I'll let him tell it, in his own words. If the below condradicts your opinions, well, it's not reality that's got it wrong... ----------------------------------- ~From: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Speaker-to-Minerals) Subject:Re: Apology to Patrons ~Date: 27 Jul 1994 12:48:52 GMT Message-ID:<315l3k$6i5@gap.cco.caltech.edu> In article <314h23$cii@rigel.infinet.com>, jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) writes: =Michael J M Holmes (mjmh@bu.edu) wrote: = = A lot of good, wise stuff. . . but. . . . = = Speaker will himself admit that he is seen by some as abusive, =abrasive etc. "Of course I'll admit that," says StM. "Been that way ever since my second post to the Place. First post was just to find out whether the Place had anything to do with Spider's stories. Consisted of 7 words: `Does this place have a Punday night?" Got a couple of replies back. One, I thing from, where was it, University of Southern Mississippi? Well, USM anyway. Lurked for a bit. Then somebody posted about the suicide of a friend. I responeded. Accused the poster of, let's see, how did I put it? Oh, yeah, `wallowing in self pity.' Got flamed by half-a-dozen regulars. Including, I think, Kitten. NOT including, oddly enough, the person to whos post I was responding. Heard from him later (in a post to the place), that my response had actually been helpful. Oddly enough, the pattern continues: Someone posts asking for help. I offer help. Or what I think is likely to be helpful, anyway. Get flamed for it if my help isn't PC (Pitifully Correct). Sometimes my attempt is helpful. Sometimes it isn't. There's no way of knowing until after the fact. Hey, life isn't fair. If it were, there's be a way to tell beforehand what'll be useful and what isn't. But, yeah, some folks don't approve of my style. Even if the person they're "defending" thinks I helped, they'd still rather I'd never posted. =(I'm sure he'll admit this because 'some' have told him =so, either politely or not). Yup. Some have told me, in circumstances when I see no likely motive for them to've been lying. =I'm fairly certain that he would call the =same behavior something akin to blunt, opinionated comments. . . Couldn't've put it much better myself. =though he might (justifiably) eliminated 'opinionated' depending on how the =word is being used today. Yeah, I'd've left it out. It's almost certain to be either redundant or misleading. When anybody deals with a situation that's not completely specified, their reactions are bound to be based on their own personal prejudices. The same, of course, applies to me. [If you tend to get annoyed at my tactless statements, you might want to skip the next page] I see somebody who seems to think life's going out of its way to be unfair to her when, in fact, all the evidence indicates the situation was reasonably foreseeable, I'll point out the situation was foreseeable. Why? Well, because in the situations I've dealt with personally (both when life was unfair to me and when it was unfair to my friends and acquaintances), most of the time, realizing that life wasn't being ESPECIALLY unfair helped. That's personal observation. YMMV (pretty much the motto of misc.health.diabetes, by the way). So I see a similar situation, I approach it based on my own personal experience. Yup. Even if I don't know all the details. Personal prejudice at its best (yes, Kitten, I *DO* admit to having prejudices; I just claim that I tend to be more aware of them than do a lot of people). But y'know something: That's the best option available to me. I'm not omniscient. I've got to go on my own best guess as to what's likely to help. So do you, even if you don't want to admit it: You're not omniscient either. And the culture you've lived in, and which conditioned your responses, may not be the same as the culture in which I've lived. If you've got a solid argument why your approach is better than mine, I'd love to hear it. What I don't want to hear is a lot of bullshit constructed for the purpose of rationalizing your presonal prejudices. Well, that's not quite true. If you've got a NOVEL rationalization, I'd like to hear it. Hell, there's even a chance that the rationalization will be valid. = What I'm saying is this: Speaker talks differently from most =patrons here. That is a legitamite issue. Saying people should not =mention this, discuss this, etc, is the same as saying that Speaker =should use a different tone in his posting. Y'know, there've been a few patrons who've talked with me about why my styld is different from that of other patrons. Then there're the majority of patrons who appear (for those of you who ignore words in sentences that you don't think are important: "appear" was in this sentence for good reason; if you can't figure out why, ASK!) to accept my style (at least when I'm responding to requests for help) as valid. And there are those who can't seem to conceive of any idea of "help" other than theirs as being legitimate. I truly do not understand the latter class. And, in some sense, I hope I never do. In another sense, I want very much to understand them. = This type of discussion can quickly get circular . . . she =shouldn'ts ay that he can't say that I can't say that he can't say that =she can't say that. = = However, if someone calls Speaker nasty names because he calls =someone nasty names, they surely can't claim some moral superiority to him. Er, that's not quite the way it usually happens. What usually happens is that someone calls me nasty names, but does it with polite words, and expects that the the politeness of the words will be taken to be more important than the nastiness of the accusations. I must admit that that's an effective technique. And at this point, I'm afraid I must confess that I've recently used that technique myself, just to demonstrate how effective it can be. I won't apologize for doing so. That would be dishonest. I will say I'm sorry I thought it was necessary. Er, I suspect I've got many of you confused. I know there are some Niven fans here. Fans enough that you know all the implications of the term Kzinrette. Now, there are some, including Abner, who castigated me for my out-and-out, above-board insults to the "illogical Vulcan." Yet, for some reason, nobody at all objected to my calling her a "Vulcanrette." Think about that for a moment, please. = /*, I don't know what to say or do. . . because I *DO NOT* like some =of Speaker's responses to some situations. That's not at all surprising. We're two different people with two different backgrounds. =But at the same time, I've come to care for him a great deal over the years. =. . and, I think I've gotten a better picture for the man behind the =terminal once I accepted that he is what he is and stopped trying to FORCE =him to become what I'd like him to be. (Yes, I'd still like him to change. =So? I'd also like the weather to change. . . ) "If you'll permit me to paraphrase a fellow who, as best I can tell, had a substantial influence on Heinlein, what you're saying is that once you overcame a reversal or order in your semantic response, you were better able to cope with the world as it is (or at least with me as I am). Putting that in terms that make sense: Once you started trying to deduce my motives from my actions rather than trying to fit my actions into a preconceived notion of how I *OUGHT* to behave, things made a lot more sense. If I'm wrong in that interpretation let me know. If I'm right let me know. I'm working on a book review, and whether or not the above description seems valid to you is imprortant data for that review. And, since the book in question purports to be non-fiction, whether or not the above description seems valid to you affects how seriously I'll take many of the claims of the book (the book makes many claims. Some claims I know to be bullshit. Some were even known to be bullshit at the time the book was written. Others I have evidence are valid. But a lot, while persuasive, are unbacked by evidence. So I'd like to see evidence, either way, on their validity. = But somehow, WE, the collective we, have to decide a better solution =than 1) bashing someone because we feel they are bashing first, Sorry, even though, to some extent you're defending me here, I've got to disagree with you: If I think I'm being attacked, I'll defend myself. And if I wasn't the initial agressor, I don't honor any conventional rules, except for one: If your opponent asks to stop the fight, the fight stops (the first time; if he later demonstrates that the cessation of hostilities was merely a ploy to give him breating time, you don't make the same mistake again). I ask no more of anybody in the Place. *BUT*, bear in mind: If you enter an exchange without invitation, YOU are the agressor. Maybe you're doing it for the best of motives. But if you decide to attack without having yourself been attacked, or having been asked by a participant to enter the fray, you're the agressor. = One thing I will suggest to everyone who has a problem with *ANYONE* =EVER ANYWHERE. . . . try to understand that person. Try to figure out =exactly why that person is doing whatever it is you don't like. If that person tries to explain his actions, LISTEN to him; even if you don't buy his reasons, at least you'll know what those reasons are. =Once you have a better picture of that person, then at least, you'll have a =better idea of what you're doing. Yup. For example, if you want to stop me from doing something, telling me that I'm violating social conventions isn't going to make a damned bit of difference. Presenting evidence that I'm injuring innocent bystanders likely will make a difference (but bear in mind: Someone who persists in reading a thread they declare they find distasteful is NOT an innocent bystander. That person is a voyeur, no matter how much they might deny the fact). =Thinking of Speaker as some horrendous ='argument machine' whose only purpose in life is to make people unhappy =would be complete bullshit. . . . he's VERY caring and very helpful. =Simultaneously, not admitting that he's blunt (at least) would be blindness. Sure would. If I've got a choice between "blunt" and "tactful," then unless there's obvious reason for going with "tactful," I'm gonna go with "blunt." Of course, that's not the only way of putting it. It would be equally valid to say: If I've got a choice between "honest" and "deceitful," then unless there's obvious reason for going with "deceitful," I'm gonna go with "honest." = Anyway; as a veteran of many wars here, that's a lot of what I think =on the matter. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I try very hard to say exactly what I mean. I'd appreciate it if you'd bear that in mind and not try to "interpret" my posts to fit your own preconceived notions if I'm posting in a serious thread. Remember: If you throw a strawman into a heated debate, flames are likely to be the result. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.cybercomm.net!not-for-mail ~From: banshee@cybercomm.net (Sidhe Who Must Be Obeyed) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 15:13:27 GMT Organization: CyberComm Online Services ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: <504c2n$o23@crow.cybercomm.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vujeb$c89@News.Dal.Ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: raven.cybercomm.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] John Barnstead (userrusj@is.dal.ca) wrote: : barbara trumpinski (kittent@staff.uiuc.edu) wrote: : : kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called : : speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl : : was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone : : out there can help, please do." : : : she raises her glass in a silent toast. : : Barnstead raises a glass: : : To Carl Lydick and his creation Speaker-To-Minerals. God be with you : until we meet again. The banshee's wordless cry joins the many toasts as she sends her glass into the fireplace, mourning the loss of someone who, while she didn't know him well, will still be sorely missed.... -- ******************************************************************************* "There is no meaning... only life's dance, * Rebecca Leanne Schoenberg and in this place we are the new race of * Leah Anne of Bellemont Earth being born" - Jack Oakley, "Fiat Silva" * banshee@raven.cybercom.com ******************************************************************************* Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 15:15:55 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 66 Message-ID: <504c7b$kab@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <504baj$59q@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu kitten holds a piece of paper in her hand. "i got this message from didi...she and eggo are mourning speaker, too. she reminded me of how kind he was to let her and kyla-sprite live in his beard. i asked her if i could pass it along...." ----<--<* ----<--<* *>-->---- *>-->---- DEATH IS A DOOR ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . . ... :``..': : ````.' :''::' ..:.. : .'' : Death is only an old door ``. `: .' : Set in a garden wall; : : : : On gentle hinges it gives : : : : at dusk : : : : When the thrushes call. : : :..''''``::. : ...:..' .'' .' .' .::::' Along the lintel are green :..'''``::::::: leaves, ' `:::: Beyond the light lies still; `::. Very willing and weary feet `:: Go over that sill. :::. ..:```.:'`. ::'`. ..' `:.: :: .: .:``::: There is nothing to trouble .: ..'' ::: any heart; : .'' .:: Nothing to hurt at all. : .'`:: Death is only a quiet door :: In an old wall. :: : : BY: Nancy Byrd Turner : : : . ----<--<* & *>-->---- How are you today, Kitten? I hope the emptiness I imagine you have been feeling has relented a little. I like to imagine Speaker in a place where he no longer feels the need to shout and rant; instead he can have quiet conversations with folk of equal intellectual capacity. I don't believe he died alone, either. There were loving entities there to help him across. That is why he went. Those who are left behind must grieve for a time, then move on with our memories. We shall always have those and they make us richer. Especially since we can filter out those we don't like so much. -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!claudia ~From: claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 15:17:29 GMT Organization: NowHere ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <504ca9$il@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3225B3FE.3A6A@bway.net> <504769$agg@izzy4.izzy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunster-lab1.student.harvard.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sanford E. Walke IV (sewiv@news.izzy.net) wrote: : I know this is a dumb question, but someone is saving this thread, right? I've been considering it. But all of a.c is already archived. What I think I may do is make this the impetus to dig up all the plaque posts I can, as I once told DJ I would. : This needs to go in the a.c archives. Of course, any time anyone nominates a "favorite post" for my favorite posts page, it goes up as soon as I can html it (minimal html). Claudia http://www.tiac.net/users/cmarie/callahans-index.html -- "I try never to get involved with my own life. It's too much trouble." -- Michael Garibaldi Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!wariat.org!kf8nh.apk.net!news ~From: bsa@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 19:57:15 -0400 Organization: Brandon's home server in Parma, Ohio ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <505aor$7ij@kf8nh.apk.net> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <504baj$59q@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: kf8nh.apk.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158939 Also sprach shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) (<504baj$59q@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>): +----- | > Why on earth would a non-Insulin dependent diabetic take | >shots? I've personally never heard this (although, I'll be the | | The classifications "insulin-dependent" and "non-insulin dependent" | are, indeed, not always the best choice of terms. As of a few +--->8 IDDM occurs when the immune system destroys the Islets of Langerhans, the organs that produce insulin. A person with IDD *must* take insulin. No other choice exists (except death). NIDDM is when insulin *receptors* are destroyed by the immune system: there is enough insulin, but the body doesn't respond to it. It is sometimes, but not always, possible to survive without insulin injections; often NIDDM can be "controlled" by diet. I don't know the full story on NIDDM, but I do know that failure to control it sufficiently (which is somewhat common, especially since NIDDM has become well understood by doctors only relatively recently) often leads to the victim requiring insulin shots to survive. (IIRC, this is to insure that there is enough insulin to reach and trigger all the surviving insulin receptors.) Anyway, the naming has more to do with whether the body is producing its own insulin or not: in IDDM it isn't, in NIDDM it is but it can't be used. (We need a new local NIDDM expert. Any takers? Or maybe I should do it, since I should really bone up anyway so I can make sure my boss is taking care of himself --- he was diagnosed with NIDDM earlier this month. Dammit, I was going to ask Speaker for tips...) -- ++brandon s. allbery flying with merlin! bsa@kf8nh.apk.net telotech's "loup-guru" :-) FORZA CREW! bsa@telotech.com Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!wariat.org!kf8nh.apk.net!news ~From: bsa@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 20:12:34 -0400 Organization: Brandon's home server in Parma, Ohio ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <505bli$7ln@kf8nh.apk.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504kr2$bf2@news1.infinet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kf8nh.apk.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158940 Also sprach jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) (<504kr2$bf2@news1.infinet.com>): +----- | "I've been trying to figure out *WHAT* to say. . . and how to say it. | I mean, I am probably one of the only "original Speaker-battlers" that | still hangs around her. I was here when he showed up; now I'm here after | he's left. +--->8 Not the only one. | "Wouldn't he have to keep fighting even when beaten? Wouldn't he have | to be unyielding, never giving approval and never saying "you got it"? +--->8 Except that, when caught out on a point of fact, he *did* give in. (Usually. ISTR a few exceptions.) (Now is for remembering...) -- ++brandon s. allbery flying with merlin! bsa@kf8nh.apk.net telotech's "loup-guru" :-) FORZA CREW! bsa@telotech.com Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!agate!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!yama.mcc.ac.uk!news.salford.ac.uk!aber!bath.ac.uk!morse.ukonline.co.uk!usenet ~From: simon@ukonline.co.uk (Simon H Le G Bisson) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:57:53 GMT Organization: UK Online Ltd ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3225cbc0.17824133@news.ukonline.co.uk> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32235f17.181655040@news.ukonline.co.uk> ~Reply-To: simon@ukonline.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: pardalis.ukonline.co.uk X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 20:58:51 GMT, alan.ralph@ukonline.co.uk (Alan Ralph) wrote: >'To Carl, who helped provide some of the rough occasionally to go >with the smooth, and the sour to counteract the sweet.' Ignatz sneaks a head around the door and tosses in his glass. "To Speaker!" And disappears once more. --------------- Ignatz Mouse is: Simon H Le G Bisson -- simon@ukonline.co.uk Technical Manager, UK Online Ltd http://www.ukonline.co.uk/ Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ptd.net!news ~From: "Kevin D. Knerr, Sr." ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:02:09 -0400 Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc. ~Lines: 65 Message-ID: <32263D91.457F@prolog.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs1-13.haz.ptd.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b7Gold (Win95; I) barbara trumpinski wrote: > > kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called > speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl > was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone > out there can help, please do." > > she raises her glass in a silent toast. Mike--a bottle of the 100 year old Macallan, if you please. I finally "found" Callahan's a few months ago. Among the first things that happened to me were that I was a) *warned* about StM and b) warned about *StM*. Needless to say, I plunged right on in, fully confident of my own knowledge and abilities. I tried to not let the warnings prejudice my opinion of him. I guess I should feel twice blessed in that StM at times both agreed with me and flamed me. While I never knew Carl, the man behind the persona, and I only knew StM for a short time, I feel confident in saying the following: Carl was a polymath, exceptionally brilliant in several fields. Carl held rigid definitions of truth, freedom, and choice. (Which should explain to prior posters why he described himself as a "non-insulin dependent diabetic who uses insulin". As far as he was concerned, diabetes did not force him to use insulin--he chose to use insulin to treat his diabetic condition.) Carl never really cared what people thought of him personally--objective truth was that much more important to him. Carl believed that everyone else should hold the same commitment to objective truth. Given the number of comments I've read, I suspect he never realized that his abrasive and abusive language was detracting from his ability to share his knowledge and insights with others. Or he just plain didn't care. Carl, despite his rigorous self-discipline, sometimes failed to achieve his own high standards in his posts. He would make assumptions about their starting principles. He held stereotypes and preconceived notions about others' motives and ideas. But, IMHO, Carl's tragic flaw was his refusal to acknowledge that others might succumb to weakness and pain. Because he stood valiantly against his own infirmity and pain, he could not see why others might stumble. Someone else has already said that StM would probably castigate us and berate us for all this sentimental garbage and sanctimonious bullshit. Maybe so. But he is gone now, and, although he would not mourn, we can and we must. To my worthy adversary--may you find truth and peace on the other side of the threshold. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just think about it: Windows 95 is Commodore Amiga '84--almost, but not quite. "Friends don't let friends do Windows. Be a designated Amigan." A public service message from Ld. Barthel. kknerrsr@prolog.net Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!qns3.qns.net!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.ysu.edu!odin.oar.net!malgudi.oar.net!news.infinet.com!jpalmer ~From: jpalmer@infinet.com (John Palmer) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 17:42:58 GMT Organization: InfiNet ~Lines: 69 Message-ID: <504kr2$bf2@news1.infinet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: user2.infinet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] John smiles sadly. "I've been trying to figure out *WHAT* to say. . . and how to say it. I mean, I am probably one of the only "original Speaker-battlers" that still hangs around her. I was here when he showed up; now I'm here after he's left. "Assholes burn out; it's a fact of life. There's just nothing in hate and anger that can keep a person's energy up. Those emotions COST. . . and they don't return anything. Speaker and I fought over things for *YEARS*. Assholes don't last that long. "That should tell you that Speaker wasn't an asshole. . . he had something more precious than crankiness backing him and his actions up. It had to *MEAN* something to him. "Listen. . . I don't know Carl's motivations. I never could understand him. . . and I stopped trying to understand them, to a degree, after a while. I could understand him fighting to the last drop of blood, so to speak, over the truth. . . but there were times when I was SURE he was wrong, when I couldn't POSSIBLY figure out how he could continue, and he still railed on. "But for now, I'm going to open up a kind of a fairy-tale ending to his life. Let's just suppose that he hated the idea of someone worshipping him. Let's suppose he DESPISED the idea that someone would take his word for something without true understanding. Let's pretend that the worst sin in his book of morality was "giving people false pride". "Wouldn't he have to keep fighting even when beaten? Wouldn't he have to be unyielding, never giving approval and never saying "you got it"? "I wonder. And I keep wondering. Couldn't I picture Carl saying 'great, the moron is going to think life is unfair because he can't make me say what he wants.'? "He never gave up; he never gave in. And he thereby taught me not to do either, and not to question myself simply because someone disagrees strongly. "Instead of being satisfied if/when I felt I'd beaten HIM, I had to be satisfied if and when I thought I'd found the truth I was looking for. "I dunno. I doubt it. I doubt he was some kind of weirdo intellectual saint trying to give people their thinking-trial-by-fire. But regardless of WHAT he was, he taught me to put more interest in myself than in what other people said, or did, or seemed to expect." John sighs, and a few tears finally leak from his eyes. "So maybe I can honor him best THAT way. . . by not TRYING to look at what he was, or might have been, and holding on to what I gained from him." John laughs, quietly. "I asked him to post details of where his surgery was going to be. If the worst happened. . . well. . . I was ready to try to sneak out to California and see if I could get him off of life support. . . whatever that took. "Dj once said he wasn't sure if he could do that. I knew I could, even if it meant. . . well, something not strictly legal, and something the catholic chruch would surely call murder. "All that for a man who I really hated. . . but who I could only hate because I respected, and yes, loved, him. "I'm gonna miss you, Speaker." John sighs, blinks back the remaining tears, and gets back to work. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!samba.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!kristin.a2i!kristin ~From: "Kristin A. Ruhle" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 19:00:12 GMT Organization: a2i network ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <504pbs$gll@samba.rahul.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: foxtrot.rahul.net NNTP-Posting-User: kristin X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Kristin steps up to the chalkline, delurking - no - revisiting Callahan's after a long absence. "To Speaker," she says. "Even if he did call me something anatomically impossible once. He gave me a net.experience to remember, at least." ***smash*** "Yeah, I'd gnash my teeth sometimes thinking he was an asshole, but he was very bright, and intellectual rigor doesn't hurt with all the shit that 's on the net these days. "Hmm. If he were here now, he'd probably find a way to turn my current .sig against me...." Kristin R. -- ************************************************************************* "You can stop rehearsing, Pinky. No one is hiring village idiots anymore." Kristin Ruhle kristin@rahul.net ************************************************************************ Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!mcsun!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news1.radix.net!news ~From: "Chris Barnhart" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 20:12:25 GMT Organization: RadixNet Internet Services ~Lines: 65 Message-ID: <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin2.annex5.radix.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 -- Leslie wrote in article <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org>... > "The net didn't 'bring out the worst in him,' not in the sense that > you mean it, I think. Over and over and over again, every time > the subject came up, he repeated one thing: his flames were deliberate > and calculated for effect, the effect of making it *crystal clear* > what he thought of something. The more he disagreed with something, > the more important it was to him that there be no chance that anyone > anywhere might mistake him for agreeing, instead. Pure selfishness > on his part; but the effect of his flames on the receipient was a > non-issue to him, with the exception of his intent to make them > *think* about what they'd said. I absolutely disagree. It *did* bring out the worst in him. Calling someone a moron or shit for brains or anything else like that hardly EVER causes them to think. And, as anal-retentive and nit picky as Carl was, it should have been a fairly obvious distinction for him that saying someone is stupid is much different than saying something someone says is stupid. We've all been there and done that. At least, I know I have. Whether or not his intentions were clear unto himself, Carl, like all of us, needed to take the responsibilities for his actions. Just because he was bright doesn't give him special license to treat people like crap on an almost (from my perspective) continuous basis. Anything StM might have had to say to me regarding science, I can read from a book without the insults, thank you very much. When I've flamed, albeit here or somewhere else, I've been called on the carpet for it, and perhaps rightfully so. Though I think that there is a time to express anger. My impressions of Carl's flaming tendencies were that he had a lot of inner rage he couldn't take out elsewhere, that he had a terminal Napoleonic complex, that he had little regards for how anyone felt, other than himself. Am I wrong? Perhaps. But with the way he presented himself, to whom should I credit the false impression? IF I suspect a dog of being hydrophobic, I will hardly test the thesis by approaching it and petting it on the snout. I wasn't going to say any of this, not out of respect for StM/Carl, but for respect for his friends. But it's apparent that everyone who knew him is aware of the controversy regarding his personality. *I* feel better for having said it, and I guess that's what memorial is all about. If there is an afterlife of any sort, I can wish for Carl that he finds there what he is looking for. Would he grant me the same respect? I honestly don't know. ______________________________________________________________________ _ Chris Barnhart - TechnoPup | "Verbosity leads to unclear, cbarnhart@radix.net | inarticulate things." http://www.radix.net/~cbarnhart | -Dan Quayle ________________________________|_____________________________________ _ Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 01:30:05 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 14 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <5061pd$pga@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> <5030lg$qmg@metro.usyd.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 29 Aug 1996 02:52:32 GMT in alt.callahans, Shonias said: : : Shonias stands laughing and crying and remembering the souls that : have departed recently (three friends of hers, one of someone else's : in a two week period.) "Oh, my dear, how terrible for you. I can't begin to imagine. I can only say I'm sorry. I hope you have friends there in RL to give you support..." Leslie. CC: Shonias Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 01:33:47 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50620b$pm2@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> <3225D46F.6934@discover-net.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:33:35 -0600 in alt.callahans, Ager or Persson said: : Leslie (and somebocy else![that was kitten]) wrote: : > "Truckin'. They have to play Truckin'. There was a thread once where : > people were telling what the theme song to the movie of the story of : > their life would be, and that's what he said." : : Truckin' : -------- [...] : Busted, down on Bourbon Street. : Set up, like a bowling pin. : Knocked down, it get's to wearin' thin, : They just won't let you be, oh no. "Somehow...I think this was one bit that stuck out in his mind... "Thank you, Beth." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!daq ~From: daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p Speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 20:50:47 GMT Organization: PROTEUS ~Lines: 14 Message-ID: <504vr7$fef@fcnews.fc.hp.com> ~References: <3225F3ED.F7D@ftn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpesdaq.fc.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1.4] Ch'kai (chkai@ftn.net) wrote: : The world as a whole is large and anonymous, masses of strangers. : Individuals - and Carl was certainly that - come and go, one by one. And : personally, I think it would be worse if no-one even noticed their : passing. Like Eleanor Rigby. Certainly, and Carl is in my thoughts a great deal lately. I did not know him in person, but regardless my feelings, he will probably remain an icon for certain subjects in my intenral dialogue for some time to come if not until even the time of my own death. So I pay him a respect of sorts, perhaps even a meaningful one. doug Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 22:55:22 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 33 Message-ID: <50574q$7ng@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159017 In article <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, John Edwards wrote: >The Ever-so-wise miller@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Kelly Miller) once >said: > >->For what it's worth, Carl was not an insulin dependent diabetic, but a >->non-insulin dependent diabetic who took insulin. >-> >->Not a major point, perhaps, but Carl always demanded precision... >-> > Wait a minute. > Why on earth would a non-Insulin dependent diabetic take >shots? I've personally never heard this (although, I'll be the >first to admit, I'm a little out of touch with newer trends of >diabetes care) > (BTW, I've been insulin dependent since I was 14) > Would you mind explaining this? "Insulin dependent diabetes" is another word for "Type 1", previously known as "juvenile onset" diabetes -- in which the insulin-producing cells in the pancreas die off. "Non-insulin-dependent" or "Type II" diabetes is the more common type, in which insulin production is (usually) normal, but the body doesn't respond efficiently to insulin. One of the most common treatments for type II is insulin injections to supplement their own insulin production although some can control their diabetes using diet, exercise, and/or oral medications. Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!cdc2.cdc.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news ~From: soozeeq@concentric.net (soozeeq) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:10:14 GMT Organization: Concentric Internet Services ~Lines: 110 Message-ID: <50513n$afe@herald.concentric.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc125046.concentric.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ACombs@mail.utexas.edu (Alan B. Combs) wrote: >On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:58:45 -0500 in alt.callahans, >Alan B. Combs said: >Leslie: >>All of a sudden, Leslie realizes the irony...this will be the last time >>Speaker's name is in the title of a thread... >[ >Alan: >Very excellent posting, Leslie. As well as helping your grieving process, >this will be very helpful to many of the rest of us. I have been >emotionally wiped the last couple of days, along with many others. >Alan (First Posting): >>: I did not like his anger (or at least what I perceived as anger, though he >>: said it was not) and his intolerance for the fuzzy, ambiguous, >>: easy-to-misinterpret nature of words. I do affirm the strong, wonderful, >>: helpful resource he was. He fought ignorance, diabetes, and congestive >>: heart failure. I wonder if lack of hope for the future, and similar lack >>: of hope for the present contributed to the anger we saw at the end of his >>: postings. Until we are able to walk in his shoes, perhaps, even the anger >>: and flames should be forgiven. >Leslie: >>"Don't jump to conclusions. There were a lot of flames then, true, >>but don't forget that he was involved in defending himself against >>misinterpretations. And perhaps it was just chemically pure chance >>that several subjects came up at once that fit his criteria for >>'things which deserve to be flamed.' >Alan: >This possibility is stipulated. >Leslie: >>Painting him as being so >>unself-aware of his own emotional state does him a major disservice." >Alan: >I feel this is an example of the all too frequently fuzzy and maleable >meanings of words, resulting in the sending of messages that were not >intended. I did not mean to imply that Carl was self-unaware. To the >contrary, I believe he was *highly* self-aware, something that would >clearly add to the angst of his situation. I apologize, if my posting was >interpreted otherwise. >Alan (First Posting): >>: To Carl J. Lydick, a *man*. The journey is not over. Albeit, you >>: rejected the concept, may God's grace go with you. >Leslie: >>"I hope you aren't referring to the God of the Old and New Testament. >>StM really hated that guy a lot. The God of the Deists, he'd be >>willing to go along with..." >Alan: >Yeah, I was referring to the God of the Testaments -- and I did do it on >purpose. Very clearly, Carl did not like any aspect about Him. My only >response is that the God that Carl hated and the God I cannot, dare not >hate are *not* the same Person, even if the same name is used. Inasmuch >as we believers have, by our behaviors, provided Carl (and others) with >evidence for his beliefs, we will be held accountable. >On the other hand, one of the frequent comments people have made in this >thread is about Carl's inability or refusal to concede that there might be >any legit interpretation of what was said, other than his. I think that >ambiguity in conveyed meaning, even though none was intended, is one of >the tragedies of human existence. Because of this aspect of Carl's >nature, his ambiguity-blindness, I suspect he would not have been capable >of receiving any theological argument, not matter how well-framed it might >have been. Thus, I have not gone deeply into apologetics (explanation and >interpretation of doctrine) in several of the recent relevant threads. I >admit this may be a cop-out, however. >Finally, (as was developed by C.S. Lewis), it is much better to be a >person that hates God, rather than one that is apathetic. Hate is active, >the person cares, and God can deal with that. When a person just does not >give a rat's ass, that person cannot be moved. >Alan (First Posting): >>: C R A S H (then hugs and tears around) >Leslie: >>Thank you. >Alan: >Also, Leslie, thank you. Your comments, history, and caring continue to be >very helpful. This is my second version of this message. I was wrestling >with myself as to whether I should just email this to you, or more >generally post it to the friends in alt.callahans. I had just chosen the >latter when my computer bombed. I think some of my initial wording was >stronger, but it is gone forever. So be it. Scanning through this post, Soozeeq notices Alan's excellent points about miscommunications and misunderstandings in the use of language as a communication device....she pauses for a moment and adds: I truly believe that language is both a blessed gift and a curse.....I also believe that we have as many "languages" as we have people on this earth....hopefully we can teach and learn each other's languages and meanings with trust and patience for each other's differences. --Sooz (who daily struggles with the confusion over the differences in language and the meaning of language between genders, in particular!) Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!daily-planet.execpc.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!claudia ~From: claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 23:12:59 GMT Organization: NowHere ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <50585r$7pb@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3225B3FE.3A6A@bway.net> <504769$agg@izzy4.izzy.net> <504ca9$il@decaxp.harvard.edu> <504et3$led@xanadu.io.com> <3225D757.53CB@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunster-lab1.student.harvard.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159015 Looking Wolf (lookingwolf@rand.nidlink.com) wrote: : Gareth L Owen wrote: : > "I reckon there should be a 'Tycho Crater' web page : > or something. Something kinda permanent. Somewhere : > we can go and remember." : "That is an excellent idea. I'm willing to donate both the space for : the page and the time for designing it, if someone will but tell me : where and how to retrieve all the Plaque posts. Claudia says, "Well, I had already told Dreamy Jim I would do that, but I guess whatever gets it done soonest. I was going to go through the archives by hand because I *wanted* to skim them anyway, and fish out Plaque posts as I went." Claudia -- "I didn't realize how much fun I had until I started reading all the posts about me." -- davo Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 04:22:32 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 72 Message-ID: <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bermuda.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:46:07 -0700 in alt.callahans, Looking Wolf said: : : "I had wondered about this myself," says the wolf, "so, after I learned : a bit more about Carl (posthumously, unfortunately), I asked a friend of : mine who is a psychologist. She said that Carl's medical conditions : could easily have affected his personality. "Wonderful. Diagnosing someone she'd never even met, based on third- hand, incorrect, incomplete, information. What diploma-mill did SHE come out of? Speaker took a *real* dim view of people who fancied themselves 'net.shrinks,' too. Especially since they never got it *right*..." : "Diabetes can cause mood swings, and even mild personality disorders, as : the brain is continually short-changed in its food supply. Also, Carl : had congestive heart disease, I have been told, and was scheduled for a : sextuple bypass operation. He must have been in incredible pain. That : pain, combined with whatever medication he was taking, could have caused : long-term problems, including his general irascibility. "Nice theory, except for the *tiny* problem that he WASN'T IN PAIN, not that I knew of anyway. (Polymath? Soprano? Did he complain at all of pain that you knew of?) In email to me in June, just before he went off the net, he told me the medications he was on were handling the CHF just fine, and that his condition was stable. He said, given the complications of his diabetes anyway, having the operation wouldn't change the quality of his life. Somehow I suspect 'being free of pain' would count as a change in the quality of his life, no? "It's not impossible that he was having problems regulating his blood sugar; but he was very very alert to problems in that area, and did try to maintain tight control by testing often. He wasn't an idiot, you know. Or at least, not *that* kind of idiot." "As far as iracibility goes, he's been that way for decades. And recently there were a lot of threads going on in at least three newsgroups where he was faced with both idiots and misinterpretations. Just how short would your fuse be, under those conditions?" : "There is also this to consider: a number of people said that he was : soft-spoken in person. It could be that it was only online that he was : able to vent all the anger and pain he was in, and so it was the online : communities that bore the brunt. "ooo, are you lucky StM I'SNT here. But if I told you he once defended a lady bartender's honor (against two assholes who were harassing her) by using an ashtray as a weapon (the fight lasted about a minute and a half, he said) would you rethink the above bit of bullshit? He never said he didn't insult people to their faces; in fact, he said he *did*." : "One last thought: I read that Carl refused the bypass operation, 'for : reasons known only to himself'. That sort of seemingly irrational act : just might have been due to encroaching arteriosclerosis, which does not : only affect the elderly, and which can make someone extremely edgy and : angry. "Great. The above would have gotten you *nuked* by StM. His major reason for postponing the operation was, in fact, posted by him here, in June. So it was *not* 'known only to himself.' Next theory? Try to make it based in *facts* this time, eh?" : "Pain does strange things to the brain, and diabetes doesn't help. : While this does not necessarily excuse bad behavior (and I doubt Carl : would want an excuse anyway), it may help others understand it." "You're right that he never used even wonky blood sugar as an excuse for anything. He *insisted* on taking responsibility for his actions, no matter what, and said so in a post, I remember." Leslie. Who was rereading her old files to find the story of the bar fight...oh damn, oh damn...man, was I NOSY... Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:24:08 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 16 Message-ID: <32264290.581095017@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3225B3FE.3A6A@bway.net> <504769$agg@izzy4.izzy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co24-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 8:29:43 PM CDT 1996 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158950 The Ever-So-Wise sewiv@news.izzy.net (Sanford E. Walke IV) wrote: ->I know this is a dumb question, but someone is saving this thread, right? -> ->This needs to go in the a.c archives. ->-- ->Sandy sewiv@izzy.net I've saved everything that has come across my news server. If you want, I'll send it to you after it's all over. John Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 03:07:45 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32265a95.587245023@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> <502kj1$gvi@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co24-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 10:13:20 PM CDT 1996 The Ever-So-Wise kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) wrote: ->>Leslie. I thought he was too stubborn to die... -> ->"me, too....and the sonofabitch was supposed to CALL me if he needed ->anything. i feel like i just lost my brother all over again." kitten ->wonders if this has been a long week for everyone, or just her. It's been a week from hell for me as well. My mother went into the hospital with heart trouble yesterday, and my uncle (mother's side) is having difficulty with a brain tumor. Mom will be fine, Uncle will be fine after his operation in November. ((keep saying it, over and over again)) {Sigh.} John Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 03:24:43 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <32265e8c.588260246@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <504baj$59q@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <504c7b$kab@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co24-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 29 10:30:18 PM CDT 1996 The Ever-So-Wise kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) wrote: -> ->kitten holds a piece of paper in her hand. "i got this message from ->didi...she and eggo are mourning speaker, too. she reminded me of how ->kind he was to let her and kyla-sprite live in his beard. i asked her ->if i could pass it along...." Thank you for posting that Kitten, and thank you too DiDi for sending it. John Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: "Lydia M. Uribe" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:49:56 -0700 Organization: Rancho Cucamonga Shelter for Maladjusted Singers ~Lines: 16 Message-ID: <322729C4.3284@ibm.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50361u$4ji@ra.nrl.navy.mil> ~Reply-To: uribe@ibm.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ont-ca6-28.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 30 10:55:01 AM PDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159006 Daniel Briggs wrote: > > Dan'l opens the door, and wanders back to Mike. Not too many folks in the > bar place the face, but there are a few. He's still as tall and bearded > and bespectacled as he ever was, with a tendency to dress in blues, browns > and black. A dollar bill goes down on the bar. Soprano looks up at the entrance of someone she hasn't seen in too long. "Welcome back, Dan'l." Soprano -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lydia M. Uribe, Rancho Cucamonga, CA uribe@ibm.net | | Cats, quilts, and diving: what more could anyone ask? | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.nidlink.com!usenet ~From: Looking Wolf ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:57:35 -0700 Organization: NetLink, Inc. ~Lines: 154 Message-ID: <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-19.nidlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b6Gold (Win95; I) Leslie wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:46:07 -0700 in alt.callahans, > Looking Wolf said: > : > : "I had wondered about this myself," says the wolf, "so, after I learned > : a bit more about Carl (posthumously, unfortunately), I asked a friend of > : mine who is a psychologist. She said that Carl's medical conditions > : could easily have affected his personality. > > "Wonderful. Diagnosing someone she'd never even met, based on third- > hand, incorrect, incomplete, information. What diploma-mill did SHE come > out of? Speaker took a *real* dim view of people who fancied themselves > 'net.shrinks,' too. Especially since they never got it *right*..." "A number of very GOOD 'diploma-mills'," growls the wolf. "Bachelor's degree from the University of Nebraska at Lincoln, Master's from the University of Nebraska at Omaha, and further course-work taken at the University of Maryland and Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore. "This was not a clinical diagnosis. I asked the following questions: 'Can diabetes cause personality changes? Can pain cause excessive anger and irascibility?'. The answers were 'yes'. "No one mentioned whether Carl specifically stated that he was in pain. I simply assumed (and don't bother dragging out that tired old saw), based on the experience of an aged relative who died from a heart condition, that Carl would have been in pain. "My friend is not a 'net.shrink'. She was not attempting a diagnosis of a specific person. She was simply answering a few simple questions that I thought I knew the answers to, but wanted confirmation for." > : "Diabetes can cause mood swings, and even mild personality disorders, as > : the brain is continually short-changed in its food supply. Also, Carl > : had congestive heart disease, I have been told, and was scheduled for a > : sextuple bypass operation. He must have been in incredible pain. That > : pain, combined with whatever medication he was taking, could have caused > : long-term problems, including his general irascibility. > > "Nice theory, except for the *tiny* problem that he WASN'T IN PAIN, > not that I knew of anyway. (Polymath? Soprano? Did he complain > at all of pain that you knew of?) In email to me in June, just before he > went off the net, he told me the medications he was on were handling > the CHF just fine, and that his condition was stable. He said, given > the complications of his diabetes anyway, having the operation wouldn't > change the quality of his life. Somehow I suspect 'being free of pain' > would count as a change in the quality of his life, no? "If being free of pain would have changed the quality of his life, then he must have been in pain. You just reversed your earlier position. Which is accurate?" > "It's not impossible that he was having problems regulating his > blood sugar; but he was very very alert to problems in that area, > and did try to maintain tight control by testing often. He wasn't > an idiot, you know. Or at least, not *that* kind of idiot." "Of, for crying out loud. At what point did I attack Carl's intelligence? Diabetes is very difficult to control, and very unpredictable, judging by everything I've ever heard about the condition. In another post, someone (I'm not sure whom - it might even have been you) said that Carl had been taken to the ER because he had passed out and started coughing up blood due to complications from his diabetes. Doesn't that suggest that even a highly intelligent person can experience diabetes-related trauma? If his diabetes was so severe and/or unpredictable that an intelligent, careful, methodical person like Carl could succumb to that degree, is it not possible that some sort of minor, but chronic, problems were there? "I did not mean he was too stupid to monitor his condition. I just meant that diabetes is not yet completely understood (once again, judging by my admittedly incomplete knowledge in the field), and mood-altering side-effects are well enough known that a retired psychologist has heard of them." > "As far as iracibility goes, he's been that way for decades. And > recently there were a lot of threads going on in at least three > newsgroups where he was faced with both idiots and misinterpretations. > Just how short would your fuse be, under those conditions?" "If the people in these newsgroups were making me that angry, I'd probably just quit posting to them. My health is more important than trying to make an idiot see the light, which most of them never will, no matter how hard you try." > : "There is also this to consider: a number of people said that he was > : soft-spoken in person. It could be that it was only online that he was > : able to vent all the anger and pain he was in, and so it was the online > : communities that bore the brunt. > > "ooo, are you lucky StM I'SNT here. But if I told you he once defended > a lady bartender's honor (against two assholes who were harassing her) > by using an ashtray as a weapon (the fight lasted about a minute and > a half, he said) would you rethink the above bit of bullshit? He never > said he didn't insult people to their faces; in fact, he said he *did*." "Let's go back and re-read what I posted. 'A number of people said that he was soft-spoken in person.' Since I never met the man in person, I could only accept what those who had met him said. "Besides, being soft-spoken does not mean one is a coward who will not stand up for what is right." > : "One last thought: I read that Carl refused the bypass operation, 'for > : reasons known only to himself'. That sort of seemingly irrational act > : just might have been due to encroaching arteriosclerosis, which does not > : only affect the elderly, and which can make someone extremely edgy and > : angry. > > "Great. The above would have gotten you *nuked* by StM. His major reason > for postponing the operation was, in fact, posted by him here, in June. > So it was *not* 'known only to himself.' Next theory? Try to make it > based in *facts* this time, eh?" "Yet another case where you must re-read my post. I was quoting SOMEONE ELSE! I did not just pull this off the top of my head. So his reasoning was not unknown. Yet again, I was accepting what was said by people who seemed to know more about him than I did." > : "Pain does strange things to the brain, and diabetes doesn't help. > : While this does not necessarily excuse bad behavior (and I doubt Carl > : would want an excuse anyway), it may help others understand it." > > "You're right that he never used even wonky blood sugar as an excuse > for anything. He *insisted* on taking responsibility for his actions, > no matter what, and said so in a post, I remember." "I never once said he wasn't responsible. In my opinion, even the most arteriosclerotic, irrational, nasty puke I've ever met (and I'm thinking of someone in particular here) is responsible for his own actions. HOWEVER, after I learned he was arteriosclerotic, I disliked him a little less, and his irrationality made sense. "I was only trying to give some possible reasons for the behavior Carl exhibited. Quite a few people seemed hurt by his anger, and I thought, 'Gee, maybe it wasn't all personal. Maybe he wasn't just an angry, nasty, hateful, spiteful bastard. Maybe all the good things people are saying about him are true also. Maybe I wasn't entirely wrong in my judgement of him, based on the all-too-few posts of his that I read before he went offline. Maybe I can suggest a few possiblilities that might help people feel a little less angry and a little less hurt.' "What the hell is wrong with that? "By the way, if you read carefully, you will see that I NEVER ONCE said 'I am right, this is the way it is.' Instead, it was always 'maybe' and 'could have been' and so on. "So why did you feel a need to respond to my post by makin personal assaults against my intelligence and capabilities, and those of someone whom you have never met?" ...Looking Wolf Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!jobone!news2.acs.oakland.edu!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!caen!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: "Lydia M. Uribe" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:58:01 -0700 Organization: Rancho Cucamonga Shelter for Maladjusted Singers ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <32272BA9.5FC5@ibm.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> ~Reply-To: uribe@ibm.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ont-ca6-28.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 30 11:03:06 AM PDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159064 Leslie wrote: > "Nice theory, except for the *tiny* problem that he WASN'T IN PAIN, > not that I knew of anyway. (Polymath? Soprano? Did he complain > at all of pain that you knew of?) No, he never complained of pain in my presence -- but he never complained, *period*, not even when he was very obviously sick. Soprano -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lydia M. Uribe, Claremont, CA uribe@ix.netcom.com | | Cats, quilts, and diving: what more could anyone ask? | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: glo@io.com (Gareth L Owen) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 11:06:19 -0500 Organization: Illuminati Online ~Lines: 38 Message-ID: <5073hr$giq@bermuda.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <501m5l$f0h@medea.gp.usm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bermuda.io.com In article <501m5l$f0h@medea.gp.usm.edu>, Jim M. Pierce wrote: > A small dot climbs the steep stairs. The stairs connect the >meadow to the moon. No easy way by starship this time. No speedy >trip and a quick return. Linda and Robbie wait patiently near the >plaque. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CRASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > >Dreamy Jim, Linda the Starship, and Robbie the Robot. > > > DJ walks back down those stairs, and sits in the meadow, where the >green grass grows, by his wild alone. > >[and if any disagree, tough.] A figure watches for a moment from the edge of the meadow, careful not to intrude on DJ's solitude. He whispers, faintly, "Oh Jim, that was nobly done" Then he turns and leaves. The Stranger [If you need to talk to someone DJ, well, I'll listen] -- Gareth L Owen |\_/| Roleplayer, karate man, shadowrunner glo@io.com (o o) Itinerant mountaineer and cynical idealist finger for PGP key \_/ http://www.io.com/~glo/ "Think for yourself - that means YOU citizen!" Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!panix!news.columbia.edu!news ~From: tjl9@columbia.edu (Tom Lee) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:56:22 -0400 Organization: Columbia Law Library ~Lines: 29 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> <502kj1$gvi@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32265a95.587245023@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: beleriand.law.columbia.edu X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v1.00 (30 Day Trial) In article <32265a95.587245023@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, harkerii@ix.netcom.com says... > It's been a week from hell for me as well. My mother went >into the hospital with heart trouble yesterday, and my uncle >(mother's side) is having difficulty with a brain tumor. > Mom will be fine, Uncle will be fine after his operation in >November. ((keep saying it, over and over again)) > {Sigh.} "Well, you have my best wishes that what you say will be true," says Tom. "This week has been a tough one for me as well ... here at the law school it's 'Profession of Law' week, a one-week intensive course on professional responsibility for the third-year students. I have to videotape every minute of every class, sometimes in two rooms at once, and even show some videos to boot. It's the roughest week of the year. Granted, not a tragedy, but it is draining." >Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've >killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed >Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable >animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards "That," Tom adds, "is one of my favorite movies." -- Take care, Tom Lee (tjl9@columbia.edu) "Lamplighter" Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!jobone!news2.acs.oakland.edu!condor.ic.net!branch.com!aanews.merit.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.flint.umich.edu!news.gmi.edu!news.sojourn.com!cancer.vividnet.com!news.wildstar.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 14:04:11 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 164 Message-ID: <507dvb$i82@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159071 On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:12:40 -0500 in alt.callahans, Alan B. Combs said: : : Leslie: : >All of a sudden, Leslie realizes the irony...this will be the last time : >Speaker's name is in the title of a thread... : : Alan: : Very excellent posting, Leslie. As well as helping your grieving process, : this will be very helpful to many of the rest of us. I have been : emotionally wiped the last couple of days, along with many others. "It's not that part of me isn't thinking, what can it really hurt, now, if people misinterpret him? But just on the off chance that he does still care, somewhere, I feel I have to continue to do as I have done in the past; present my point of view, and what I remember him saying, so that things I know he would've disagreed with don't pass by unchallenged. It was his intense dislike of being misinterpreted that lead to so many many of his flames; it was as basic to who he was as his devotion to logic. I wasn't there, and couldn't help him, in RL. This I can do." : Leslie: : >"Don't jump to conclusions. There were a lot of flames then, true, : >but don't forget that he was involved in defending himself against : >misinterpretations. And perhaps it was just chemically pure chance : >that several subjects came up at once that fit his criteria for : >'things which deserve to be flamed.' : : Alan: : This possibility is stipulated. "He was also in simultaneous flamewars in at least three newsgroups. That couldn't have helped his tolerance or patience levels. And he did once confess that perhaps dealing with true and utter idiots elsewhere on the net left him not in the best frame of mind when leaving them, and coming here." : Leslie: : >Painting him as being so : >unself-aware of his own emotional state does him a major disservice." : : Alan: : I feel this is an example of the all too frequently fuzzy and maleable : meanings of words, resulting in the sending of messages that were not : intended. I did not mean to imply that Carl was self-unaware. To the : contrary, I believe he was *highly* self-aware, something that would : clearly add to the angst of his situation. I apologize, if my posting was : interpreted otherwise. "Okay. But you were attributing his emotional state to the state of his health, and he did vehemently deny that his health played any part in giving him problems he wasn't able to cope with, emotionally. (Speaking strictly in terms of before he left the net; I am haunted by wondering what losing his job and his net access did to him.)" : Leslie: : >"I hope you aren't referring to the God of the Old and New Testament. : >StM really hated that guy a lot. The God of the Deists, he'd be : >willing to go along with..." : : Alan: : Yeah, I was referring to the God of the Testaments -- and I did do it on : purpose. Very clearly, Carl did not like any aspect about Him. My only : response is that the God that Carl hated and the God I cannot, dare not : hate are *not* the same Person, even if the same name is used. Inasmuch : as we believers have, by our behaviors, provided Carl (and others) with : evidence for his beliefs, we will be held accountable. "It's just that the God described in the Bible wasn't at all *logical* to him. There were too many contradictions, too many things that seemed to make no sense. There's no way he'd buy into a God that didn't make sense, especially in the absence of concrete evidence." : On the other hand, one of the frequent comments people have made in this : thread is about Carl's inability or refusal to concede that there might be : any legit interpretation of what was said, other than his. "Not necessarily. That would've depended entirely on what it was, and how convincing the argument was for the other side. I can remember at least once taking a stand that disagreed with his; I didn't get flamed, because I bolstered my argument as logically as I could. He argued back, but didn't flame at all. He presented his opinion; I presented mine. And since I *did* have some logic to my side, he didn't exactly say I was *wrong*, just that I might not be *right*, either. "(I was just re-reading my first run-in with him. I didn't get called 'moron,' but he did make a few cutting remarks. But, as I told him in email at the time, I blithely ignored the sarcasm, and just replied to him politely. Deep in the depths of my evil heart, I planned to kill him with kindness. No *way* was I going to let him best me...)" : I think that : ambiguity in conveyed meaning, even though none was intended, is one of : the tragedies of human existence. Because of this aspect of Carl's : nature, his ambiguity-blindness, "He wasn't blind; I think he just applied Occam's Razor to everything. His certainty in his opinions came from the fact that he *had* carefully considered all the angles, to the best of his ability, before settling on a conclusion. As for his habit of taking things literally, well, that's just how he was *built*, near as I can tell; also he was passionate about precision with his words, and, rightly or wrongly, rather expected the same of others. Or at least, that they not spend a lot of time defending a particular position, and then turn around and say 'oh, that's not exactly what I meant after all...' People who did that he labeled dishonest." : I suspect he would not have been capable : of receiving any theological argument, not matter how well-framed it might : have been. "Well, no, he wouldn't have taken anything seriously, if you couldn't back up what you said with any evidence. And I doubt the Bible counted as evidence in his eyes." : Thus, I have not gone deeply into apologetics (explanation and : interpretation of doctrine) in several of the recent relevant threads. I : admit this may be a cop-out, however. "You saved yoursef a lot of useless typing, trust me. I've seen him argue with Christians before. A more fruitless endeavour would be difficult to imagine." : Finally, (as was developed by C.S. Lewis), it is much better to be a : person that hates God, rather than one that is apathetic. Hate is active, : the person cares, and God can deal with that. When a person just does not : give a rat's ass, that person cannot be moved. "Ah, but it *was* only the God described in the Bible that he hated the idea of; he did not hate the idea of a god per se. He was a skeptical agnostic; his position was, he didn't see any evidence that there was, or had to be, a god, but that there wasn't any proof that there wasn't a god, either. So he reserved judgement on the issue. As I said, he would've been willing to go along with the idea of the God of the Deists, because that god made sense to him, from what he could see of the way things worked." : Alan (First Posting): : >: C R A S H (then hugs and tears around) : : Leslie: : >Thank you. : : Alan: : Also, Leslie, thank you. Your comments, history, and caring continue to be : very helpful. "Well, I'm sort of on automatic pilot, I think. I imagine I'll run down eventually. I'm glad if it's helping someone else too, though." : This is my second version of this message. I was wrestling : with myself as to whether I should just email this to you, or more : generally post it to the friends in alt.callahans. I had just chosen the : latter when my computer bombed. I think some of my initial wording was : stronger, but it is gone forever. So be it. "I *hate* when that happens. Usually in the middle of a long email, too. I really ought to learn to do stuff offline, so I don't get zapped by lost telnet connections..." Leslie. cc: Alan Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!informer.alliance.net!news ~From: Lissa & Eric McCollum ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:20:01 -0400 Organization: Alliance Network, Inc. (GRR MI) (616-774-3010) ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <322730D1.4CFF@alliance.net> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <3223CDA9.4B5A@pacbell.net> <5019uv$659@zot.io.org> <32249C8F.51DF@pacbell.net> <32264326.10BD@ibm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gr14.ppp.alliance.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158954 Lissa steps up to the chalk line, and raises her glass. "My toast is to Speaker. When all is said and done, this place will not be the same without you." She gauges carefully, and precisely hurls her glass into the fireplace. The liquid sprays out, creating a storm of flames as the glass shatters. *CRASH* Lissa Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp.coast.net!trellis.wwnet.com!news.inc.net!news ~From: Ager or Persson ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:00:23 -0600 Organization: Internet Connect, Inc. The Wisconsin ISP 414-476-4266 http://www.inc.net ~Lines: 28 Message-ID: <32277287.214C@discover-net.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvq27$vvu@mozz.unh.edu> <502pa9$ad2@news-central.tiac.net> <504bbl$4cb@decaxp.harvard.edu> <50596h$a8r@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.230.195.81 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (Win95; I) Leslie wrote: > > On 29 Aug 1996 15:01:09 GMT in alt.callahans, > Rachel Meredith Kadel said: > : He was found dead in his apartment on Friday. The cause of death is now > : listed as diabetes. > > "I'd imagine he's objecting strenuously to that, too--he did comment > once that it was more accurate to say 'died of diabetes-related > complications.' One doesn't die *of* diabetes, unless..." she says, > going pale. "Unless he'd quit taking his insulin. Is there a way > to get more information that this?" > > Leslie. It sounded as if Speaker suffered from plenty of complications of diabetes, since he was only forty, yet scheduled for a sextuple bypass. (I saw an autopsy of a 44 y.o. diabetic woman once; her coronary arteries were very nearly occluded). But I don't see how a coroner or M.E. could list "diabetes" (never mind hair-splitting over the correct name) as the cause of death unless it was one of two things: insulin shock (low blood sugar) or diabetic coma (high blood sugar). Of those two things, it's most likely that Speaker got caught by insulin shock; it kills more quickly and happens more frequently than diabetic coma. If Speaker was a brittle diabetic, anything (stress, exercise, food or medication intake, etc.) easily could have tipped him out of balance. Beth Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 11:43:07 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 46 Message-ID: <506k4b$b7d@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158987 looking wolf: >: "I had wondered about this myself," says the wolf, "so, after I learned >: a bit more about Carl (posthumously, unfortunately), I asked a friend of >: mine who is a psychologist. She said that Carl's medical conditions >: could easily have affected his personality. leslie: >"Wonderful. Diagnosing someone she'd never even met, based on third- >hand, incorrect, incomplete, information. What diploma-mill did SHE come >out of? Speaker took a *real* dim view of people who fancied themselves >'net.shrinks,' too. Especially since they never got it *right*..." [ ] >"It's not impossible that he was having problems regulating his >blood sugar; but he was very very alert to problems in that area, >and did try to maintain tight control by testing often. He wasn't >an idiot, you know. Or at least, not *that* kind of idiot." kitten butts in...."sometimes he was. sometimes he screwed up and sometimes he got bad test equipment. and sometimes i think he just didn't care. you are right, however, that he would have been pissed off by any diagnosis." >"As far as iracibility goes, he's been that way for decades. And >recently there were a lot of threads going on in at least three >newsgroups where he was faced with both idiots and misinterpretations. >Just how short would your fuse be, under those conditions?" "not to mention having way to much time on his hands due to unemployment. every time i called the bar (except for the last time) he was there." >Leslie. Who was rereading her old files to find the story of the > bar fight...oh damn, oh damn...man, was I NOSY... "i wish i had been more nosy....but i hate rejection." kitten is holding on, still....but damnit, i'm pissed off. (why didn't he call me?) -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 17:07:07 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 75 Message-ID: <507l5r$j9i@zot.io.org> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <5019uv$659@zot.io.org> <32249C8F.51DF@pacbell.net> <32264326.10BD@ibm.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158952 On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:25:58 -0700 in alt.callahans, Lydia M. Uribe said: : He knew, because I'd told him in so many words, that I was aware of what : the responsibility might entail, and he also knew that I had at least : one major source of emotional support in the event that the decision to : "pull the plug" became necessary. When I heard nothing further from him : on the subject, I assumed that he had decided to designate one of the : others on his list as his agent. : : "Carl always insisted upon being taken literally at his word. I assumed : that he would accord me the same courtesy. According to Leslie's : posting, evidently I was wrong. While I understand and appreciate his : concerns, I deeply regret that he did not discuss them with me. "I hope the email I forwarded to you from him on the subject makes his feelings clearer, Lydia. And I'm unsurprised to find that I raised the same issues you have. I wish I could remember how he phrased it, when he brought it up in a post here...it did leave the impression with me that (he thought, at least) you were aware of his concerns. But I might be misremembering... "He did take you at your word. But still he was unwilling to chance being the cause of screwing up your life, because he cared about you." "I gave arguing him out of that idea my best shot. I even came up with a way around his concern, too. But he didn't reply to that email, so I don't know what he thought of my suggestion." : "Carl, I wish we had known each other better -- it might have prevented : a misunderstanding, and who knows, you might still have been with us. I : know that you scoffed at the idea of God, but I also remember you : sitting in the front pew during a church service in which I sang. I : remember you defiantly riding every roller-coaster ride at Disneyland : with Abner and me, despite the signs warning people with heart : conditions not to ride. And I still giggle at the image that came to : mind the last time I saw you when you described a hungry Kzin with a : pistol in hand surrounded by monkey meat.... "A couple of my favorite memories are the time he officially declared me 'not a moron,' (wow, did *that* seem like a compliment, coming from HIM), and once in email when I said something about scratching his ears, and he replied PURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Leslie shrugs helplessly. "How could I not have a soft spot in my heart for a man who *purrs*? And then there was the time my reading comprehension went totally out the window, and I said a really stupid thing, and I wondered if he wanted to be seen with such an airhead, and he said, 'hey, no problem, I have an IQ-tester for blondes...' and then produced an air-pressure gauge...that made me laugh, and got me to stop feeling so embarrassed. It was just the *right* thing to say to me." : "Wherever you are, I hope that you're healthy -- and try not to give God : too hard a time, OK? I'll miss you...." "Me too. Oh, me too..." : She turns to the Polymath, and buries her face in his shoulder, sobbing : quietly. "Polymath? If your other shoulder isn't taken, could I borrow it for a bit?" Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.radix.net!news ~From: "Chris Barnhart" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 13:08:13 GMT Organization: RadixNet Internet Services ~Lines: 45 Message-ID: <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin3.annex5.radix.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 -- > "Great. The above would have gotten you *nuked* by StM. His major reason > for postponing the operation was, in fact, posted by him here, in June. > So it was *not* 'known only to himself.' Next theory? Try to make it > based in *facts* this time, eh?" Leslie, you seem to suffer from the same condition as StM suffered. EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, whether based in fact or not. What some of us are saying (and which you REFUSE to allow) is that we didn't *care* to delve into the personality of StM and I personally don't care *how* he rationalized his obnoxious behavior on or offline. Go back and reading Looking Wolf's post again. No one offered diagnosis. The shrink, as you so adroitly put it conveyed her feelings using the word "could". You don't think that medications causing a swing in temperment is a possibility? And where was the diagnosis, huh? Why the hell are you trying to take apart almost everyone who differs with your construct of StM's personality? Regardless of who Carl really was (which only he could ever have known entirely), we all have our own opinions about him. If you want to discredit everyone who doesn't buy into the Carl as great teacher and pointer out of all wrongs, then fine. Does that mean we're wrong? Hardly. Frankly, who the hell cares what StM would have said about Wolf's post, or any others for that matter? I'm sorry, but I'm just a little bit sick of this. And, considering your own strong stance on netiquette and the FAQ based on an earlier conversation we had, I'm just a little bit surprised at you. ______________________________________________________________________ _ Chris Barnhart - TechnoPup | "Verbosity leads to unclear, cbarnhart@radix.net | inarticulate things." http://www.radix.net/~cbarnhart | -Dan Quayle ________________________________|_____________________________________ _ Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!mozz.unh.edu!hopper.unh.edu!mca ~From: mca@hopper.unh.edu (Marc C Allain) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 23:57:33 GMT Organization: University of New Hampshire - Durham, NH ~Lines: 64 Message-ID: <507v5d$pja@mozz.unh.edu> ~References: <50180o$3sr@zot.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: hopper.unh.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158964 Patchmaker finishes his dance with Kitten with a courtly bow and faces the room. A tall figure in black robes hands him a fresh cup of coffee. "Thanks. I was wondering if you would show." "*********************************" "Yes, but you don't always come when called and usually arrive unlooked for." "***********************" "Well, you know you are always welcome - if you're off the clock." "*********************************************************" "Yes. You're right. It is my turn to share. Feel free to wait at my table. I won't be long." "*****" "Friends. My introduction to Speaker to Minerals came right after my own introductory post a little over three years ago. As was the custom then, I introduced myself, stating my favorite drink and my birthdate. "Carl replied promptly, noting that he and I shared a birthday. "We shared a few laughs here and there, once or twice, suc as the time we tried to work out labels for differing types of agnostics. (e.g. fundamentalist agnostic, born-again agnostic,) and what those labels would mean. "I saw his caring side. I saw his attempts to inform and correct and encourage further study. "I also caught the rough side of his tongue more than once. Both in open postings and in e-mail. Sometimes justly as when he took me to task for mis-attributions. Sometimes, I feel, unjustly. We called each other names - usually indirectly. (For example - he didn't come out and call me a Nazi, but 'Heil Marc' gets the idea across.) "What I liked about him most was his breadth of knowledge, which reflected, I believe, an abiding fascination with the universe he found himself in. "What I liked least was his intellectual dishonesty verging at times on hipocracy. The way he would trash folks, including me, for any sloppy reasoning or invalid arguments or using opinion as fact - and then he would commit these same sins himself. And when I called him on it a few times, he never once admitted his error. No reply at all on the times I caught him cheating." "Yeah, Speaker pissed me off more than once. And I annoyed him on occasion as well. He was a man. An imperfect human being. As am I. "One way or another, (or often one way and another) he touched our lives. I won't miss him. The important parts are part of us, and the cheap chemicals will soon be recycled. "So a toast. To Carl Lydick, aka Speaker to Minerals. May your flames be the light that greets us on the other side!" With that, Patchmaker drinks down his coffee and places the mug in the fireplace. The he returns to his table to converse with Death. -- If you need me, I'll be down in the lab, mixing metaphors Patchmaker Marc C. Allain mca@christa.unh.edu http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mca Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 06:09:57 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5096i5$8tg@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 31 Aug 1996 04:18:09 GMT in alt.callahans, Roland X said: : Please forgive me but...on second thought, _don't_ forgive me : if you don't want to. StM _hated_ false remorse. : BWAH-HA-HA-HA! : Honestly, would this thread truly have been complete without : _someone_ ripping someone else apart? Leslie peers at Roland curiously. "Do you really truly no kidding think that what I said should be categorized as 'ripping someone apart'--? If so, we are working with very different definitions of the meaning of that phrase." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 03:04:03 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3227ab45.70986333@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <502ot0$jjk@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32255bdb.3582036@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <504baj$59q@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <505aor$7ij@kf8nh.apk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co15-22.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 30 10:09:53 PM CDT 1996 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158981 The Ever-So-Wise bsa@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) wrote: ->(We need a new local NIDDM expert. Any takers? Or maybe I should do it, ->since I should really bone up anyway so I can make sure my boss is taking ->care of himself --- he was diagnosed with NIDDM earlier this month. Dammit, ->I was going to ask Speaker for tips...) -> Well, obviously, it won't be me. I really need to bone up on this kind of stuff myself, considering. JOhn [humm.. maybe I really should call my Dr...] Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.izzy.net!news.izzy.net!not-for-mail ~From: tomsmith@izzy.net (Tom Smith) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 07:56:47 -0400 Organization: Isthmus Corporation ~Lines: 123 Message-ID: <50999v$r1i@izzy4.izzy.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <501m5l$f0h@medea.gp.usm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: izzy.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Jim M. Pierce (jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu) wrote: : A small dot climbs the steep stairs. The stairs connect the : meadow to the moon. No easy way by starship this time. No speedy : trip and a quick return. Linda and Robbie wait patiently near the : plaque. : The figure moves slowly with his burden. Step by painful step. : Exercise hasn't been done by him in years. A trip of this many : thousand miles takes a very long time. : : He appears to be carrying something. What it is, isn't exactly : clear. It is heavy, very heavy, but DJ doesn't drop it or : put it down for a rest. : He could ask for Linda's help, but wont. : He could ask for other folk's help, but wont. : He would refuse help, if it was offered. : Days go by. Weeks. The extremes of outer space. : DJ finally arrives at the plaque. He struggles with the object. : Its a plaque of gold and bronze. And upon it is written in mithril. : "Good-bye Carl Speaker-To-Minerals Lydick. : I will miss your friendship : Sometimes we disagreed : You told some great puns. : And I just _know_ that Death : had second thoughts by the time you were through with him ! : Good-bye to someone I was Proud to call Friend !" : The plaque is placed upon the lunar soil. On a small stand by : itself, for Carl was one of a kind, and he stood apart, a cat : who walked by himself, his wild alone. But I do know he had : friends, for I am one of them. : A song wanders through DJ's mind: : 'softly falls the light, : as the sun sits down behind the hills, : a new star shines up in the sky, : it waxes and wanes, : much as the person whom it represents did. : I will miss him, : Good night my friend, : Good night.' : >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CRASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< : Dreamy Jim, Linda the Starship, and Robbie the Robot. : : DJ walks back down those stairs, and sits in the meadow, where the : green grass grows, by his wild alone. : [and if any disagree, tough.] At the bottom, those weeks later, DJ finds Tom, sitting in the darkness, fingers steepled, guitar on the ground next to him. It looks like he's been there awhile. His eyes flicker up to meet DJ's, and he flashes a weak, bitter smile. "How deep?" Before DJ can breathe to ask what he means, Tom goes on. "I didn't know the man. I didn't *want* to know him. I read many of the threads he posted in, shaking my head in wonder that The Patrons didn't rise up en masse and kick his rude, flaming ass out of here." His shoulders shake in a chuckle, then continue to shake as the sobs begin. "Half the time, I didn't even care if he was right or wrong. It was how he behaved, what he called people. As if *I'm* the perfect example of how to comport onesself. "The macho, dashing, wanna-be-heroic cretin hiding in my gut used to pace back and forth, wanting to defend the virtue of kitten and Ilene. I wanted to, pleasantly and politely and with perfect logic, cram every one of those 'shit-for-brains' down his throat sideways. But I never did. Partly because they weren't my fights, and partly because I was terrified he'd grab some minute mistake and ream me a new hole "But you." Tom's gaze, brighter for the tears, fixes on DJ. "You *walk to the fucking moon* for him. Do you know how deeply that touched me? Because that's not one-thousandth as deeply as he must have touched you." Tom reaches out for his guitar. "Here's to Speaker, a persona I did not like, and to Carl, a man I did not know, who touched and changed many in his determined attempt to rid the universe's brains of shit." He pauses, unsure for a moment of what to sing. Then that huge, gap-toothed grin breaks out, and DJ hears the strains of an old Donovan tune that, for reasons which quickly become evident, never got much airplay. "Ohhh, the Intergalactic Laxative Will get you from here to there, Relieve you, and, believe me, Without a worry or care. If shitting is your problem When you're out there in the stars, Oh, the Intergalactic Laxative Will get you from here to Mars...." -------------- -- Best, +-------------------------------+-------------------------------+ | Tom Smith (tomsmith@izzy.net) | Amiga - Babylon 5 - MST3K | | The World's Fastest Filker | http://www.izzy.net/~tomsmith | +-------------------------------+-------------------------------+ Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!dby-ct2-09.ix.netcom.com!user ~From: rolandx@ix.netcom.com (Roland X) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 04:18:09 GMT Organization: Me? Organized? ;^) ~Lines: 41 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dby-ct2-09.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 30 9:18:09 PM PDT 1996 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158995 In article <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com>, Looking Wolf wrote: > Leslie wrote: > > > > On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:46:07 -0700 in alt.callahans, > > Looking Wolf said: > > : > > : "I had wondered about this myself," says the wolf, "so, after I learned > > : a bit more about Carl (posthumously, unfortunately), I asked a friend of > > : mine who is a psychologist. She said that Carl's medical conditions > > : could easily have affected his personality. > > > > "Wonderful. Diagnosing someone she'd never even met, based on third- > > hand, incorrect, incomplete, information. What diploma-mill did SHE come > > out of? Speaker took a *real* dim view of people who fancied themselves > > 'net.shrinks,' too. Especially since they never got it *right*..." > "By the way, if you read carefully, you will see that I NEVER ONCE said > 'I am right, this is the way it is.' Instead, it was always 'maybe' and > 'could have been' and so on. > > "So why did you feel a need to respond to my post by makin personal > assaults against my intelligence and capabilities, and those of someone > whom you have never met?" > > ...Looking Wolf Please forgive me but...on second thought, _don't_ forgive me if you don't want to. StM _hated_ false remorse. BWAH-HA-HA-HA! Honestly, would this thread truly have been complete without _someone_ ripping someone else apart? I hope Speaker, wherever he is, is enjoying the show... -- Truth beyond Paradox. Roland X, Freelance Immortal "Do not become your enemy to defeat your enemy." -epitaph, Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) Path: news2.digex.net!access4!dpm ~From: dpm@access4.digex.net (David P. Murphy) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 08:23:38 -0400 Organization: Phase of the Moon Software Inc. Alexandria, VA ~Lines: 45 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net "Chris Barnhart" writes: >Leslie wrote: >>"The net didn't 'bring out the worst in him,' not in the sense that >>you mean it, I think. Over and over and over again, every time >>the subject came up, he repeated one thing: his flames were deliberate >>and calculated for effect, the effect of making it *crystal clear* >>what he thought of something. >I absolutely disagree. It *did* bring out the worst in him. Calling >someone a moron or shit for brains or anything else like that hardly >EVER causes them to think. And, as anal-retentive and nit picky as >Carl was, it should have been a fairly obvious distinction for him >that saying someone is stupid is much different than saying something >someone says is stupid. PhaseOfTheMoon nods his head in silent agreement. >My impressions of Carl's flaming tendencies were that he had a lot of >inner rage he couldn't take out elsewhere, that he had a terminal >Napoleonic complex, that he had little regards for how anyone felt, >other than himself. > >Am I wrong? Perhaps. But with the way he presented himself, >to whom should I credit the false impression? by now, Phase's head is nodding so fast, he resembles Dilbert's boss pretending to understand a technical discussion merely by agreeing. Phase's #1 rule when communicating with a non-RL person is to remember "I do not know or understand this person." Phase is sure that Chris's quick little psycho-analysis of Speaker is wrong in some respects, if not most or even all. but it's certainly the impression that a lot of people received. and someone who used the net as much as speaker should have realized the picture he was painting. then again, perhaps he really and truly didn't give a damn what that picture was. ok dpm -- David P. Murphy mailto:murphy@connor.datametrics.com (work) systems programmer mailto:dpm@access.digex.net (personal) http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm COGITO ERGO DISCLAIMUM ftp://ftp.access.digex.net/pub/access/dpm Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.supernet.net!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news ~From: Pixel@sprynet.com(TCWWTW) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 06:54:09 GMT Organization: Ineffective ~Lines: 16 Message-ID: <508nih$g67@juliana.sprynet.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: hd39-085.compuserve.com X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.) > kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) writes: > kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called > speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl > was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone > out there can help, please do." > > she raises her glass in a silent toast. Upon reading this Pixel just sits on the bar twirling his glass in his paws, Than deciding there is nothing to say which hasn't already been said he places the glass in the fireplace and wanders off. Pixel I couldda sworn there was sopposed to be a .sig file here, but now I can't find it Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!noos.hooked.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 14:28:34 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50a3p2$ll6@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159055 On 31 Aug 1996 08:23:38 -0400 in alt.callahans, David P. Murphy said: : and someone who used : the net as much as speaker should have realized the picture he was : painting. "How could he not realize, what with people telling him this over and over and over again through the years? He got called as many names as he called others." : then again, perhaps he really and truly didn't give a : damn what that picture was. "He didn't care in the slightest about being liked or not, anyway. He had his priorities, and he knew what they were, and he held to them come hell or high water--and he paid the cost for it, too. If that cost had been too high, or if he wasn't achieving what he wanted to acheive, he would've changed tactics." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 15:08:25 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 82 Message-ID: <50a63p$mog@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <32263D91.457F@prolog.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158955 On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:02:09 -0400 in alt.callahans, Kevin D. Knerr, Sr. said: : I finally "found" Callahan's a few months ago. Among the first things : that happened to me were that I was a) *warned* about StM and b) warned : about *StM*. Needless to say, I plunged right on in, fully confident of : my own knowledge and abilities. I tried to not let the warnings : prejudice my opinion of him. Leslie smiles a little. "Well, when you see someone about to stick their hand into a buzzsaw, a warning is an appropriate thing, I think. I still sort of wonder why Christians were sometimes so determined to voluntarily feed themselves to that particular Kzin..." : While I never knew Carl, the man behind the persona, and I only knew StM : for a short time, I feel confident in saying the following: : Carl was a polymath, exceptionally brilliant in several fields. : Carl held rigid definitions of truth, freedom, and choice. (Which : should explain to prior posters why he described himself as a : "non-insulin dependent diabetic who uses insulin". As far as he was : concerned, diabetes did not force him to use insulin--he chose to use : insulin to treat his diabetic condition.) "No; see Brandon's post, if you can, where he explains the difference in the types of diabetes. (IDDM means the body produces no insulin; NIDDM means it produces insulin in some amounts, but the body isn't able to use it properly.)" Another small smile. "He probably would have castigated you for talking about diabetes when you obviously don't know much about it. Get your facts straight *first*, he'd say." : Carl never really cared what people thought of him : personally--objective truth was that much more important to him. : Carl believed that everyone else should hold the same commitment to : objective truth. Given the number of comments I've read, I suspect he : never realized that his abrasive and abusive language was detracting : from his ability to share his knowledge and insights with others. Or he : just plain didn't care. "He figured two things: one, if people didn't listen to him when he corrected them politely, which he generally did to begin with, then they probably weren't going to listen in any case, so *then* he abandoned teaching in favor of providing a hostile environment for whatever the subject was. And, two, he really didn't understand how people could be more concerned over style rather than substance. He figured that was their problem, not his." : Carl, despite his rigorous self-discipline, sometimes failed to : achieve his own high standards in his posts. He would make assumptions : about their starting principles. He held stereotypes and preconceived : notions about others' motives and ideas. : But, IMHO, Carl's tragic flaw was his refusal to acknowledge that : others might succumb to weakness and pain. Because he stood valiantly : against his own infirmity and pain, he could not see why others might : stumble. "He understood about weaknesses, but he absolutely refused to allow anyone to get away with making excuses for themselves. He rather demanded that they take responsibility for themselves, and not shift the blame elsewhere. And I found him to be upfront and honest about his own flaws and foibles." : Someone else has already said that StM would probably castigate us and : berate us for all this sentimental garbage and sanctimonious bullshit. : Maybe so. But he is gone now, and, although he would not mourn, we can : and we must. "I don't know about that, entirely. Tears were not alien to him. I can remember a post, in fact, where somehow the subject of true love had come up; I can't remember exactly how the exchange went, but StM at one point described himself as 'sitting at the keyboard with tears running down his face.' He was not made of stone. He was a man, with feelings that could be hurt as much as if not more than any other person alive. "He was unashamed to cry in public." : To my worthy adversary--may you find truth and peace on the other side : of the threshold. Thank you. Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 16:05:49 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 78 Message-ID: <50a9fd$oc8@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158931 On 29 Aug 1996 20:12:25 GMT in alt.callahans, Chris Barnhart said: : I absolutely disagree. It *did* bring out the worst in him. Calling : someone a moron or shit for brains or anything else like that hardly : EVER causes them to think. "That depends entirely on what it is you want them to be thinking about, though, isn't it? And why is it, that so very many people have said 'he made me *think*'--his flames could make people wary of confronting him without thinking hard first. In that, he succeeded very well indeed. And don't forget that he resorted to flames only if it seemed apparent to him that the person had no intention of thinking or listening in the first place." : And, as anal-retentive and nit picky as : Carl was, it should have been a fairly obvious distinction for him : that saying someone is stupid is much different than saying something : someone says is stupid. : : We've all been there and done that. At least, I know I have. : Whether or not his intentions were clear unto himself, Carl, like all : of us, needed to take the responsibilities for his actions. "He did. Could you explain how he didn't take responsibility?" : Just because he was bright doesn't give him special license to treat : people like crap on an almost (from my perspective) continuous basis. : Anything StM might have had to say to me regarding science, I can : read from a book without the insults, thank you very much. "What did he flame you about, anyway? And who was right, you or him?" : When I've flamed, albeit here or somewhere else, I've been called on : the carpet for it, and perhaps rightfully so. Though I think that : there is a time to express anger. "Okay--so, you have your own personal standards as to what constitutes 'a time to express anger.' Why do you feel that StM should've also been bound by *your* standards, rather than his own? What if StM diagreed with *you* about when and where and how you expressed anger? Would you have agreed to follow his standards after that?" : My impressions of Carl's flaming tendencies were that he had a lot of : inner rage he couldn't take out elsewhere, that he had a terminal : Napoleonic complex, that he had little regards for how anyone felt, : other than himself. "He had a lot of regard for the feelings of others, as I know from personal experience, and so do many others. But he did regard truthfullness and accuracy more important than mere feelings, yes. And, why is it okay for you to express your insulting opinion about a 'Napoleonic complex,' but it wasn't okay for him to express his opinion that someone was a moron?" : Am I wrong? Perhaps. But with the way he presented himself, to whom : should I credit the false impression? IF I suspect a dog of being : hydrophobic, I will hardly test the thesis by approaching it and : petting it on the snout. "Asking him the question, 'why are you doing this?' always got a civil explanation. I know. I have tons of email to prove it, not to mention all the threads where he explained why he did what he did." : I wasn't going to say any of this, not out of respect for StM/Carl, : but for respect for his friends. But it's apparent that everyone who : knew him is aware of the controversy regarding his personality. "I have rather heard it all before, yes." : *I* feel better for having said it, and I guess that's what memorial : is all about. If there is an afterlife of any sort, I can wish for : Carl that he finds there what he is looking for. Would he grant me : the same respect? I honestly don't know. "I don't know either." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!insync!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 23:42:04 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <50b46s$gcq@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> <507dvb$i82@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159021 On 30 Aug 1996 14:04:11 -0500 in alt.callahans, Leslie quoting herself: : I feel I have to continue to do as I have done : in the past; present my point of view, and what I remember him saying, : so that things I know he would've disagreed with don't pass by : unchallenged. It was his intense dislike of being misinterpreted that : lead to so many many of his flames; it was as basic to who he was as : his devotion to logic. I wasn't there, and couldn't help him, in RL. : This I can do." "This is utter bullshit. I'm doing it for me, and nobody else but me." Leslie. I had to say that. He'd have called me a bad name if I didn't. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 01:37:16 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 252 Message-ID: <50baus$jps@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159030 On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:57:35 -0700 in alt.callahans, Looking Wolf said: : "This was not a clinical diagnosis. I asked the following questions: : 'Can diabetes cause personality changes? Can pain cause excessive anger : and irascibility?'. The answers were 'yes'. "Okay, I stand corrected. She didn't play shrink, you did. Did you happen to ask the incidence rate on personality changes due to diabetes? That is, what are the odds of it happening? Does it happen more often to IDDMers or NIDDMers? How long after onset is it most likely to occur, or become noticeable? Is it noticeable in all forms of diabetes, from well-controlled to brittle and unstable? (And I'm sure I'm missing a few questions there, too.) "Get the answers to that, then find out how they apply to StM's situation, and, then, *maybe*, you'd have something there worth calling a theory. But it would still be only that, an untested and untestable theory." : "No one mentioned whether Carl specifically stated that he was in pain. : I simply assumed (and don't bother dragging out that tired old saw), : based on the experience of an aged relative who died from a heart : condition, that Carl would have been in pain. "Oh. Why shouldn't I point out how dumb it can be to assume things, sometimes? Why didn't it occur to you to ask some questions, first?" (Leslie:) : > "Nice theory, except for the *tiny* problem that he WASN'T IN PAIN, : > not that I knew of anyway. (Polymath? Soprano? Did he complain : > at all of pain that you knew of?) In email to me in June, just before he : > went off the net, he told me the medications he was on were handling : > the CHF just fine, and that his condition was stable. He said, given : > the complications of his diabetes anyway, having the operation wouldn't : > change the quality of his life. Somehow I suspect 'being free of pain' : > would count as a change in the quality of his life, no? : : "If being free of pain would have changed the quality of his life, then : he must have been in pain. You just reversed your earlier position. : Which is accurate?" Leslie wonders if she really phrased it that badly, or Looking Wolf just missed the point. Oh well... "Okay, this is what I meant: your theory had him in pain. I rather take for granted that an operation to fix his heart would relieve any existing pain. So, outcome-from-operation=freedom-from-pain. But, he told me that the medications he was taking controlled his CHF (that's congestive heart failure; not heart attack. And my medical dictionary doesn't list 'pain' as a symptom of an episode of CHF, either). He said that an operation wouldn't change the quality of his life. Therefore, condition-with-medications=outcome-from-operation, therefore condition- with-medications=freedom-from-pain. I was asking the rhetorical question, 'don't you think that 'freedom from pain' would qualify as a 'change in the quality of his life?' And since he said there would *be* no change, then, obviously, pain was not a consideration to him." : "Of, for crying out loud. At what point did I attack Carl's : intelligence? Diabetes is very difficult to control, and very : unpredictable, judging by everything I've ever heard about the : condition. "Then you've obviously not heard very much, I guess. Some people are as stable as rocks. Others are brittle. Many others are somewhere in between. Illness can make bg's hard to control, but when in good health, a person who knows their own body, and who pays attention to what they eat, tests regularly, and understands how excercise affects them can maintain very tight control, indeed. Read the group misc.health.diabetes for more info on the subject, and please don't perpetuate the myth that it's 'very difficult to control,' because that's definitely *not* necessarily so. (Right, Rachel?)" In another post, someone (I'm not sure whom - it might even : have been you) said that Carl had been taken to the ER because he had : passed out and started coughing up blood due to complications from his : diabetes. "That was DJ. I don't know the exact details of that incident, though I believe he came close to dying. Will someone who knows the details here please provide them?" Doesn't that suggest that even a highly intelligent person : can experience diabetes-related trauma? If his diabetes was so severe : and/or unpredictable that an intelligent, careful, methodical person : like Carl could succumb to that degree, is it not possible that some : sort of minor, but chronic, problems were there? "That depends on whether or not the hole in his stomach was due to diabetes. I vaguely recall thinking it was something else entirely, perhaps an ulcer (which is caused by a bacteria, and not diabetes)." : "I did not mean he was too stupid to monitor his condition. I just : meant that diabetes is not yet completely understood (once again, : judging by my admittedly incomplete knowledge in the field), and : mood-altering side-effects are well enough known that a retired : psychologist has heard of them." "Well, sure, low blood sugar can make anyone cranky. That's why he specifically gave kitten a 2X4: to whack some sense into him, if she caught him not keeping an eye on it." : > "As far as iracibility goes, he's been that way for decades. And : > recently there were a lot of threads going on in at least three : > newsgroups where he was faced with both idiots and misinterpretations. : > Just how short would your fuse be, under those conditions?" : : "If the people in these newsgroups were making me that angry, I'd : probably just quit posting to them. My health is more important than : trying to make an idiot see the light, which most of them never will, no : matter how hard you try." "You're assuming he was 'that angry.' What if it was more like 'irritated,' instead? : > "ooo, are you lucky StM I'SNT here. But if I told you he once defended : > a lady bartender's honor (against two assholes who were harassing her) : > by using an ashtray as a weapon (the fight lasted about a minute and : > a half, he said) would you rethink the above bit of bullshit? He never : > said he didn't insult people to their faces; in fact, he said he *did*." : : "Let's go back and re-read what I posted. 'A number of people said that : he was soft-spoken in person.' Since I never met the man in person, I : could only accept what those who had met him said. "Okay. Just so you know you got it wrong." : "Besides, being soft-spoken does not mean one is a coward who will not : stand up for what is right." "Agreed there." (Looking Wolf:) : > : "One last thought: I read that Carl refused the bypass operation, 'for : > : reasons known only to himself'. That sort of seemingly irrational act : > : just might have been due to encroaching arteriosclerosis, which does not : > : only affect the elderly, and which can make someone extremely edgy and : > : angry. (Leslie:) : > "Great. The above would have gotten you *nuked* by StM. His major reason : > for postponing the operation was, in fact, posted by him here, in June. : > So it was *not* 'known only to himself.' Next theory? Try to make it : > based in *facts* this time, eh?" : : "Yet another case where you must re-read my post. I was quoting SOMEONE : ELSE! I did not just pull this off the top of my head. So his : reasoning was not unknown. Yet again, I was accepting what was said by : people who seemed to know more about him than I did." "Thank you, LW, for providing a textbook example of exactly, precisely WHY Speaker was wont to tromp, and tromp hard and fast, on misrepresenta- tions of himself: TO PREVENT THEM FROM BEING PERPETUATED. As just happened here; if the person in question had worded what she said accurately, she'd have said 'I don't know the reason,' instead of unconsciously assuming that, because she didn't know, nobody else did, either. (And I *knew* I should've said something about that, I *knew* it...) "But it was you who proposed a theory based on this incorrect statement. And I shot it down. So long as you don't repeat it anymore, so long as you're aware of the facts, that's what counts." : > : "Pain does strange things to the brain, and diabetes doesn't help. : > : While this does not necessarily excuse bad behavior (and I doubt Carl : > : would want an excuse anyway), it may help others understand it." : > : > "You're right that he never used even wonky blood sugar as an excuse : > for anything. He *insisted* on taking responsibility for his actions, : > no matter what, and said so in a post, I remember." : : "I never once said he wasn't responsible. In my opinion, even the most : arteriosclerotic, irrational, nasty puke I've ever met (and I'm thinking : of someone in particular here) is responsible for his own actions. : HOWEVER, after I learned he was arteriosclerotic, I disliked him a : little less, and his irrationality made sense. "Congestive heart failure, please. 'Silent ischemia,' too, I believe he mentioned; I think his first (and so far as I know, only) actual episode of incapacitating CHF happened a year ago July (he went to Wyoming, and the difference in altitude made his heart inadequate to keep up with his oxygen demands, though it was working just the same as it had been, when he was closer to sea level in Pasadena). "And there is a big difference between 'being responsible' and 'taking responsibility.' StM described himself as *chosing* to use insulin-- *chosing*--and he would describe all his other actions as choices, too. He never shifted the blame onto something or someone else." : "I was only trying to give some possible reasons for the behavior Carl : exhibited. Quite a few people seemed hurt by his anger, and I thought, : 'Gee, maybe it wasn't all personal. Maybe he wasn't just an angry, : nasty, hateful, spiteful bastard. Maybe all the good things people are : saying about him are true also. "Err, is there some particular reason they couldn't both be true at the same time--?" : Maybe I wasn't entirely wrong in my : judgement of him, based on the all-too-few posts of his that I read : before he went offline. Maybe I can suggest a few possiblilities that : might help people feel a little less angry and a little less hurt.' : : "What the hell is wrong with that? "Where you went wrong was in doing something you might never have done, had you had the chance to read Speaker for a while longer. You were mostly ignorant of the facts here, and yet, even *knowing* you didn't know, you still presumed to theorize about him, and form opinions about him. And you said it all in a very public forum, which could lead to god only knows how many other people getting the wrong idea, just as you got the wrong idea from someone else. If you had learned StM 101, you would have been much much *much* more careful to get your facts straight, *first*--and you would have been much more aware of the difference between an informed opinion, and an uninformed opinion. "The word StM would have used is 'bullshit.' And he would have fried you to a crisp for doing it, *especially* when the subject of that bullshit was himself. : "By the way, if you read carefully, you will see that I NEVER ONCE said : 'I am right, this is the way it is.' Instead, it was always 'maybe' and : 'could have been' and so on. "You theorized. I shot your theories down. You say, 'oh, sorry, I didn't know, I won't do it anymore.'" : "So why did you feel a need to respond to my post by makin personal : assaults against my intelligence and capabilities, and those of someone : whom you have never met?" "I swear, is *everyone* around here really this thin-skinned? 'Assaults,' 'ripping people up,'--jeeze louise, LW, that wasn't an *assault*. If I was assaulting you, smoke would still be rising up from your fur. Ask Randolph or Zaphkiel, they'll tell you about *assaults*. "But, put yourself in my place. From my point of view, *you* were assaulting Speaker's reputation, first. Now, how would you react, if (just to pick a hypothetical example at random) I were to disparage a friend of yours by, say, suggesting she came out of a diploma mill? "Might you not get a *little* bit touchy--?" Leslie. I considered going with 'grief-stricken' as an excuse, but that would have been a lie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 02:17:07 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 24 Message-ID: <50bd9j$id@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50asgu$hfn@nntp.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159042 On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 02:32:17 GMT in alt.callahans, -Lurch- said: : This here thread is the best tribute to Carl going. It's got : everything in it now. Somewhere in the middle ar a couple flame : battles ala Carl's heyday. Way to go "Piffle. I only flamed Doug because he literally asked for it. That doesn't count, does it? "I am either using a totally different definition of 'flames' than everyone else is, or you're totally misremembering the *real* thing, -Lurch-." : StM is still here - the world is upright once again... "Even if I wanted to--and I don't--I couldn't channel StM (there's a scary thought, eh?). No way could I imitate his analytical abilities. "And if you think we didn't/don't have flamewars where StM was NOT the star participant, think again. He wasn't the only one, not by a long shot..." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 02:30:30 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <50be2m$eb3@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50b8rt$l5u@nadine.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159043 On 1 Sep 1996 06:01:33 GMT in alt.callahans, Randolph Fritz said: : "He was, when not being harsh, funny and kind. And he was a teacher: of : technical specifics, of medicine, and, here in alt.callahans, of critical : thinking. : : "To Carl Lydick!" Smiling and shaking her head, Leslie applauds softly. "Well said, Randolph. So, what do you plan to do with all your free time, now that you don't have to battle that particular monster anymore? :)" Leslie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 22:10:27 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 29 Message-ID: <50ad8j$oo8@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <50180o$3sr@zot.io.org> <507v5d$pja@mozz.unh.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158958 In article <507v5d$pja@mozz.unh.edu>, Marc C Allain wrote: > "What I liked least was his intellectual dishonesty verging at times >on hipocracy. The way he would trash folks, including me, for any >sloppy reasoning or invalid arguments or using opinion as fact - and >then he would commit these same sins himself. And when I called him >on it a few times, he never once admitted his error. No reply at >all on the times I caught him cheating." > Now *that* is a side I never saw. Probably that's a result of the different characters of the forums we knew him on -- I met Speaker on misc.health.diabetes, and didn't ever read callahan's until this thread started. There the factual issues are a lot more cut-and-dried -- philosophical-type discussions rarely come up. And false information there can be quite dangerous. In my experience, he was tough on false or misleading information and inclarity, helpful to genuine requests for information, and *very* willing to admit when he was in error. His (imo valid) excuse for the roughness of his tongue on m.h.d. was "I don't have a whole lot of tolerance for homicidal maniacs who get their kicks by trying to talk folks into killing themselves". (This in a thread in which someone had claimed that yoga cures type I diabetes.) Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 03:33:58 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 92 Message-ID: <50bhpm$me1@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <01bb9674$970cecc0$06b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159060 On 30 Aug 1996 13:08:13 GMT in alt.callahans, Chris Barnhart said: : Leslie, you seem to suffer from the same condition as StM suffered. : EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, whether based in fact or not. "Entitled? Sure, everyone has the right to freedom of speech, and they can voice their opinions if they want. But if opinions aren't based in fact, they're worthless, aren't they? The right to express your opinion doesn't grant you the right to have that opinion *respected*, or taken seriously, you know that. And that's something you ought to have learned from StM, too--the difference between an informed opinion and an uninformed opinion." : What some of us are saying (and which you REFUSE to allow) is that we : didn't *care* to delve into the personality of StM and I personally : don't care *how* he rationalized his obnoxious behavior on or : offline. Leslie raises an eyebrow. "For someone who didn't care to delve into his personality, you did a remarkable imitation of it in your other post. "If you're saying you don't think that trying to understand him was worth the energy it would have cost you, fine. No problem. Just as long as you don't then turn around and try to pass yourself off as understanding him, not after admitting you didn't even try to understand. It's okay if you don't like him, it's okay if you didn't respect him or his tactics or his goals; it's not okay if you help perpetuate untruths about him. People *are* delving into his personality; I'm presenting *my* point of view in rebuttal, at times. Tell me how this is 'not allowing' anything? (Well, not allowing inaccuracies to go unchallenged, yes, but that's not what you meant, I think.)" : Go back and reading Looking Wolf's post again. No one offered : diagnosis. The shrink, as you so adroitly put it conveyed her : feelings using the word "could". You don't think that medications : causing a swing in temperment is a possibility? And where was the : diagnosis, huh? "I was mistaken. Looking Wolf got some advice, and then *he* theorized a diagnosis of StM to explain StM's behaviour." : Why the hell are you trying to take apart almost everyone who differs : with your construct of StM's personality? "I made ONE disparaging comment, about a person who isn't even HERE. Please quote the posts where I've been 'trying to take apart almost everyone.' Our definitions of 'taking someone apart' must differ quite radically. I got snippy with Looking Wolf. (Oh, wait, I flamed Doug, but he sort of literally asked for it. I don't think that quite counts, here.) Almost *everyone*--? I'd say 'you've GOT to be kidding,' but you obviously aren't. Re-read MY posts, and count the ones where I just put forth my point of view in rebuttal. Count the ones where I say or even imply anything about the person making the comment. Sheesh." : Regardless of who Carl : really was (which only he could ever have known entirely), we all : have our own opinions about him. If you want to discredit everyone : who doesn't buy into the Carl as great teacher and pointer out of all : wrongs, then fine. Does that mean we're wrong? Hardly. "I identified with him in one notable regard: I hate to be misrepresented, too. And portraying me as you do above is NOT accurate in the least. You must have missed the posts where I said he was an s.o.b., and unreasonable, I assume. And if I present facts which contradict someone's opinion, and prove their opinion is baseless, who is wrong there? "I *couldn't* discredit anyone, if I didn't have the facts to do it *with*, you know. And what is your opinion of a person who clings to a discredited opinion?" : Frankly, who the hell cares what StM would have said about Wolf's : post, or any others for that matter? "I care. I care very very very much. What are you, blind or something? Sheesh!" : I'm sorry, but I'm just a little bit sick of this. "I'm sorry. Perhaps you should consider killfiling the thread, in that case. Why are you still reading a thread you're sick of, by the way?" : And, considering : your own strong stance on netiquette and the FAQ based on an earlier : conversation we had, I'm just a little bit surprised at you. "We were discussing the technical side of netiquette, though, weren't we? But ask around. I can be a real bitch if you push the right buttons." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.supernet.net!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!trellis.wwnet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news1.radix.net!news ~From: cbarnhart@radix.net (Chris Barnhart - (TechnoPup)) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:55:21 GMT Organization: Not in my house! ~Lines: 93 Message-ID: <50afos$ibe@news1.radix.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <3223D796.455B@pacbell.net> <504nuk$4nq@zot.io.org> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50a9fd$oc8@pentagon.io.com> ~Reply-To: cbarnhart@radix.net NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin4.annex5.radix.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158956 leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: >: Just because he was bright doesn't give him special license to treat >: people like crap on an almost (from my perspective) continuous basis. >: Anything StM might have had to say to me regarding science, I can >: read from a book without the insults, thank you very much. >"What did he flame you about, anyway? And who was right, you or him?" He never flamed me. I never spoke with him. I observed his interactions with others, found him lacking in the human qualities I admire, and avoided/ignored him. >: When I've flamed, albeit here or somewhere else, I've been called on >: the carpet for it, and perhaps rightfully so. Though I think that >: there is a time to express anger. >"Okay--so, you have your own personal standards as to what constitutes >'a time to express anger.' Why do you feel that StM should've also >been bound by *your* standards, rather than his own? What if StM >diagreed with *you* about when and where and how you expressed anger? >Would you have agreed to follow his standards after that?" Leslie, you digress as you always seem to. I am not claiming Carl should have done anything. I"m stating my own (as you pointed out) personal beliefs on Carl. You seem to have the need to speak for him now that he's gone. Neat. Go for it. I don't expect you to follow my standards nor did I expect it from him. But I do have just as much right to think Carl was a worthless asshole as you do to think he was some sort of net god, professor or friend. If you re-read your own posts to this thread, any time someone has started out with anything you disagree with, it has been: Ooh... Carl wouldn't have liked that. Carl would have flamed you for that. That's not what Carl would have said. My argument is in response to that. Why are Carl's feelings more important, dead or alive? >: My impressions of Carl's flaming tendencies were that he had a lot of >: inner rage he couldn't take out elsewhere, that he had a terminal >: Napoleonic complex, that he had little regards for how anyone felt, >: other than himself. >"He had a lot of regard for the feelings of others, as I know from >personal experience, and so do many others. But he did regard >truthfullness and accuracy more important than mere feelings, yes. >And, why is it okay for you to express your insulting opinion about >a 'Napoleonic complex,' but it wasn't okay for him to express his >opinion that someone was a moron?" You almost have a point there. If Carl had feelings for others, great, I'll take your word for it. If you think it is insulting to think that Carl had a Napoleonic complex, so be it. Maybe it is. I didn't say I was better than him, did I? I didn't say he was worse. I just said I didn't like him and I was sick of you jumping all over anyone who tried to offer feelings contradictory to yours by means of claiming to speak for the deceased. Ask yourself your own question. Why is it someone who didn't like Carl is jumped on by you? Must everyone answer to the great net-goddess Leslie? You have railed against many, defying logic and syntax on several occasions, just to speak for Carl. >"Asking him the question, 'why are you doing this?' always got a civil >explanation. I know. I have tons of email to prove it, not to mention >all the threads where he explained why he did what he did." Perhaps. But you have said before that you and he were like minded. Can you state for a fact that this is true of everyone who asked him why he did something? If you claim you can, aren't you going against those principles you claim that you and he shared? >: I wasn't going to say any of this, not out of respect for StM/Carl, >: but for respect for his friends. But it's apparent that everyone who >: knew him is aware of the controversy regarding his personality. >"I have rather heard it all before, yes." > >: *I* feel better for having said it, and I guess that's what memorial >: is all about. If there is an afterlife of any sort, I can wish for >: Carl that he finds there what he is looking for. Would he grant me >: the same respect? I honestly don't know. >"I don't know either." Nor do I care. >Leslie. __________________________________________________________________ Chris Barnhart - TechnoPup | "Verbosity leads to unclear, cbarnhart@radix.net | inarticulate things." http://www.radix.net/~cbarnhart | -Dan Quayle ________________________________|_________________________________ Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!netnews.com!news.dx.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!metro.atlanta.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!pravda.aa.msen.com!spool.mu.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!munnari.OZ.AU!metro!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!lily.newcastle.edu.au!c9210088 ~From: c9210088@lily.newcastle.edu.au (Claire Black) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 23:13:14 GMT Organization: The University of Newcastle ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <50agua$it2@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502bba$m6u@pentagon.io.com> <502kj1$gvi@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504987$hsj@medea.gp.usm.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lily.newcastle.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158973 Jim M. Pierce (jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu) wrote: : Kitten: : >wonders if this has been a long week for everyone, or just her. : Its been a hellva week. Claire_Bear sighs and nods... "You know, it's been a really strange week for me, and this about Speaker, well it's only made it more strange - and more difficult". Hugs to kitten if she needs them.... -- Claire Black c9210088@cs.newcastle.edu.au GIT d-@ s: a- C++>$ ULS+>$ P L+(++) !E W+ N+ o? K--? w !O !M V-- PS? PE? Y? !PGP t+@ 5? X++ R tv b++++ DI-- D++ G e h-- r--@ x? Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!news.clark.net!noos.hooked.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!nntp.crl.com!usenet ~From: briancat@a.crl.com (-Lurch-) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 02:32:17 GMT Organization: none - anyone seen my other sock? ~Lines: 19 Message-ID: <50asgu$hfn@nntp.crl.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Reply-To: briancat@a.crl.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a127018.dca1.as.crl.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158996 In alt.callahans, kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) burst forth, saying: Hey gang, This here thread is the best tribute to Carl going. It's got everything in it now. Somewhere in the middle ar a couple flame battles ala Carl's heyday. Way to go StM is still here - the world is upright once again... ************************************** *Brian Catlin * Pardon me, * *briancat@a.crl.com * My Typo * *HWG List Guide Manager * is showing * ************************************** Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!usenet ~From: c4winds@teleport.com (Clan of the Four Winds) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 05:05:10 GMT Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <50b5e9$im1@nadine.teleport.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32228980.16D6@rmi.net> <4vu4r8$3ai@babylon5.babcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx17-47.teleport.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159025 Damn. I'm almost supprised at how much his being gone hurts. I was only here for a little while, and my first encounter with him was an argument (this seems to have been the standard first encounter with StM.) and then my own personal s**t hit the fan, so I went away. I didn't really miss him while I was gone, because I assumed he was still driving the rest of you batty. And now, well, I wish I'd had more chances to butt head with him, he was fun. Eleri ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Clan of The Four Winds Good guys dont always wear white c4winds@teleport.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!dby-ct2-17.ix.netcom.com!user ~From: rolandx@ix.netcom.com (Roland X) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 05:14:47 GMT Organization: Me? Organized? ;^) ~Lines: 26 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> <5096i5$8tg@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dby-ct2-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 31 10:14:47 PM PDT 1996 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159033 In article <5096i5$8tg@pentagon.io.com>, leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: > On 31 Aug 1996 04:18:09 GMT in alt.callahans, > Roland X said: > : Please forgive me but...on second thought, _don't_ forgive me > : if you don't want to. StM _hated_ false remorse. > : BWAH-HA-HA-HA! > : Honestly, would this thread truly have been complete without > : _someone_ ripping someone else apart? > > Leslie peers at Roland curiously. "Do you really truly no kidding > think that what I said should be categorized as 'ripping someone > apart'--? If so, we are working with very different definitions > of the meaning of that phrase." > > > Leslie. I take no sides here. I'm just enjoying the show. Hopefully, one way or another, so is StM. ;^) And of course, I meant that figuratively. -- Truth beyond Paradox. Roland X, Freelance Immortal "Do not become your enemy to defeat your enemy." -epitaph, Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news1.radix.net!news ~From: cbarnhart@radix.net (Chris Barnhart - (TechnoPup)) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 06:00:38 GMT Organization: Not in my house! ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <50b8mb$okm@news1.radix.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> <507dvb$i82@xanadu.io.com> <50b46s$gcq@xanadu.io.com> ~Reply-To: cbarnhart@radix.net NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin13.annex5.radix.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159038 leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: >"This is utter bullshit. I'm doing it for me, and nobody else but me." >Leslie. I had to say that. He'd have called me a bad name if I didn't. Whether you believe it or not, I'm very glad you said that. Not the bullshit part, the doing it for yourself part. That's what matters. No matter how much we disagree or argue about StM, I understand you are in pain and I *do* feel for you. Friendship isn't easy to find, and I don't doubt that you found it with Carl. __________________________________________________________________ Chris Barnhart - TechnoPup | "Verbosity leads to unclear, cbarnhart@radix.net | inarticulate things." http://www.radix.net/~cbarnhart | -Dan Quayle ________________________________|_________________________________ Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!usenet ~From: randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 06:01:33 GMT Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 ~Lines: 24 Message-ID: <50b8rt$l5u@nadine.teleport.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: linda.teleport.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159045 "I got the news about Carl from my girlfriend Vannessa, who got it from a comp.os.vms friend just before she flew home. It was quite a shock. It's odd; this is how I thought Carl might end and still, one doesn't meet death every day. "'I looked death in the face today/I saw him in the mirror/And he simply smiled/He told me not to worry/He told me just to take my time.' "I was one of Carl's enemies here. My opinions of his harshness and his intellectual qualities, I think, are well known here, and I wan't rehash them at this time. But let me add that he felt his harshness was in the service of truth, which I think was his great goal and that he pursued his goal with extraordinary perseverence. "He was, when not being harsh, funny and kind. And he was a teacher: of technical specifics, of medicine, and, here in alt.callahans, of critical thinking. "To Carl Lydick!" *CRASH* -- Randolph Fritz, who is only poking his nose in and is now returning to abend randolph@teleport.com Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail ~From: pdeangu@aol.com (Pdeangu) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 12:15:48 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) ~Lines: 13 ~Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <50ccrk$r1h@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ~References: <32245BC1.14AC@interpath.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159084 I read the news about "Speaker to Minerals" just before leaving town for a short trip. As a relative newcomer to Callahan's I wandered into some of his threads. The verbal pryotechnics were stunning; what a fighter! At first I tried to contribute a fact here and there that I was sure of, but was ignored for my trouble. I decided that StM was best watched from a safe distance. Suddenly he stopped posting; the silence was even more stunning. It will be a quieter, saner Callahan's without StM, but a less colorful one. I too place my glass on the topmost log for him. He now knows, or knew, something we the living can only wonder about. -- Paul de Anguera Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!panix!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 15:19:15 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 54 Message-ID: <50cr43$fia@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <501m5l$f0h@medea.gp.usm.edu> <50999v$r1i@izzy4.izzy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159119 [] "How deep?" [] [] Before DJ can breathe to ask what he means, Tom goes on. "I I think I do know... [] "But you." Tom's gaze, brighter for the tears, fixes on DJ. [] "You *walk to the fucking moon* for him. Do you know how deeply that [] touched me? Because that's not one-thousandth as deeply as he must [] have touched you." yeah, i had to do it for him. like a protector, in niven's universe, i sometimes have no choice... I could have gone into excruciating detail, but I figured my pain during that walk was evident without lots of gritty detail. [dj pauses to wipe the tears from his eyes.] when he posted awhile back about his brother's suicide, i knew or felt i knew how he conducted his life and his outlook on life. [] Tom reaches out for his guitar. "Here's to Speaker, a persona [] I did not like, and to Carl, a man I did not know, who touched and []changed many in his determined attempt to rid the universe's brains [] of shit." [chuckle] 'rid the univere's brains of shit' i like it, thanks. [] He pauses, unsure for a moment of what to sing. Then that huge, [] gap-toothed grin breaks out, and DJ hears the strains of an old [] Donovan tune that, for reasons which quickly become evident, never [] got much airplay. [] [] "Ohhh, the Intergalactic Laxative [] Will get you from here to there, [] Relieve you, and, believe me, [] Without a worry or care. [] If shitting is your problem [] When you're out there in the stars, [] Oh, the Intergalactic Laxative [] Will get you from here to Mars...." thanks. I'll do my best to get my forgetful mind to remember this song. 'California Dreamin'' by the Mamas and the Papas is playing on the radio as I type this. DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 15:44:21 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 45 Message-ID: <50csj5$r6h@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50a9fd$oc8@pentagon.io.com> <50afos$ibe@news1.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159107 TechnoPup: [] He never flamed me. I never spoke with him. I observed his [] interactions with others, found him lacking in the human qualities Maybe your observing skills need improving... >Leslie, you digress as you always seem to. I am not claiming Carl no, she made a point, that _you_ missed. [] right to think Carl was a worthless asshole as you do to think he was [] some sort of net god, professor or friend. If you re-read your own Even _i_ don't think he was a god, net or otherwise. [] posts to this thread, any time someone has started out with anything [] you disagree with, it has been: Ooh... Carl wouldn't have liked that. [] Carl would have flamed you for that. That's not what Carl would have [] said. My argument is in response to that. Why are Carl's feelings [] more important, dead or alive? Carl would have. If you knew anything about, had _observed_ anything about him, you would comprehend that Leslie is stating the truth. [] You almost have a point there. If Carl had feelings for others, [] great, I'll take your word for it. If you think it is insulting to [] think that Carl had a Napoleonic complex, so be it. Maybe it is. I it is insulting because its a _totally_ bogus claim. [] Ask yourself your own question. Why is it someone who didn't like [] Carl is jumped on by you? Must everyone answer to the great [] net-goddess Leslie? You have railed against many, defying logic and [] syntax on several occasions, just to speak for Carl. bullshit. But then, you and i probably define the word pattern 'net-goddess' differently. DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 16:01:23 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 11 Message-ID: <50cbqt$8ss@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50b8rt$l5u@nadine.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159085 randolph@teleport.com (Randolph Fritz) wrote: >"'I looked death in the face today/I saw him in the mirror/And he simply >smiled/He told me not to worry/He told me just to take my time.' A very large figure near the end of the bar looks up from his conversation at this and adds his own favorite on this subject, "Death tugs at my ear and says: 'Live, I am coming.'" --Berek "nothing lasts forever...this is both good and bad" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!thorn.cc.usm.edu!medea.gp.usm.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 16:50:40 GMT Organization: University of Southern Mississippi ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <50cet0$u1e@thorn.cc.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> <504pbs$gll@samba.rahul.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159092 Kristin A. Ruhle wrote: [] "Hmm. If he were here now, he'd probably find a way to turn my current [] .sig against me...." [] "You can stop rehearsing, Pinky. No one is hiring village idiots anymore." He would likely think it was funny, as do I. DJ. -- Jim jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: The Breeders 'Cannonball' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!thorn.cc.usm.edu!medea.gp.usm.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 17:39:25 GMT Organization: University of Southern Mississippi ~Lines: 56 Message-ID: <50chod$u1e@thorn.cc.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32262BBF.4007@rand.nidlink.com> <506bso$7rt@bermuda.io.com> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> <50baus$jps@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159095 Leslie wrote: [] "Might you not get a *little* bit touchy--?" [] [] [] Leslie. I considered going with 'grief-stricken' as an excuse, but "Hai Leslie-San, hai !" DJ. I would have given him his head back on a platter, but you did a nice job of it... LW, you may be considered intelligent by some, but to fabricate a theory up out of whole-cloth, says far more about you than Carl, Leslie, me, or anyone else. I am somewhat grieve-striken ,but I would have done my damndest to do it with needle-like precision. Not that I am all that capable of verbal precision. i.e shreding your post. Speaker coughing up blood was from two years ago. He had done a blood sugar test on himself, he realized it was way off, I forget in which direction. He got himself to the hospital. He started coughing up blood in the receiving area of the ER. The twits working there misdiagnosed him. He told them what the real problem was. They, being picked professionals, did their best to ignore the statements of the non-professional. He finally got someone with a modicum of brain cells between their ears to _LISTEN_ to him. Then he passed out, and survived. From what he said, he had to fight to remain concious. I don't see how he managed it, but he did. Like /*, I too have a small thing to confess. Several of you may remember that a couple of years ago Speaker posted that he was thinking about leaving here, and that a certain someone would have to convince him to stay. If I remember correctly, Kitten mentioned that she had emailed him about it, but Speaker said words to the effect that 'he has to tell me, sorry for not mentioning that.' Again, I didn't get it. Speaker posted again about time running out or something similar. Then the .000000001 watt light went off over my head. I got a clue. I emailed Speaker and asked him to come back here. And he did. Not long after that, there were a number of vicious attacks against him. I sent email apologizing to him for asking him back. He told me not to worry abvout it. At the time I was very chagrined. But if he hadn't come back, we wouldn't have seen that post of his about skiing on the side of a volcano using the bodies of slugs to escape. Dreamy Jim, who sometimes feels much older than he actually is... -- Jim Book: C. J. Cherryh 'Pride of Chanur' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!fnord.dfw.net!news.pcnet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news.usit.net!news ~From: jmiles@usit.net (Janet D. Miles) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p Speaker ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 18:38:10 GMT Organization: yeah right ~Lines: 55 Message-ID: <3229d6c2.14380408@news.usit.net> ~References: <3225F3ED.F7D@ftn.net> ~Reply-To: jmiles@usit.net NNTP-Posting-Host: bway-slip11.dynamic.usit.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/16.227 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159106 On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:47:57 -0400, in alt.callahans Ch'kai wrote: >The world as a whole is large and anonymous, masses of strangers. >Individuals - and Carl was certainly that - come and go, one by one. And >personally, I think it would be worse if no-one even noticed their >passing. Like Eleanor Rigby. Yes! That's it exactly; Ch'kai; I just couldn't think how to say it. [Upon reflection: this is one of several posts to which I have responded, "Yes! That's it exactly!"] For good or for ill, Carl Lydick, Speaker-to-Minerals, *will* be remembered. I'm fairly certain StM did not believe in Diety/ies or an afterlife. Let our memories of the man -- all of our memories, the good and the bad, memories of Carl who was soft-spoken and helpful equally with memories of Speaker who was frequently loud and abrasive -- let those memories be his afterlife. So long as we remember him, his spirit lives on ... "...keeping things neat and clean right here on Usenet newsgroups, because Carl Lydick was a straight-speaking man, Lord, Lord, Carl Lydick was a plain-speaking man." Dear gods. I just filked the Limelighters' song "Max Goolis" (which was itself a parody of "John Henry") as a memorial to the man. Well. I guess he made an impression on me, too. So, then, my formal toast: Carl, I've learned more about you in the last few days than in the preceding two years. I"m sorry about that; sorry because I was so terrified of running afoul of your public persona that I never wanted to get to know you personally, and now I find that I might well have liked you. I think I understand, primarily from Leslie's posts, why you chose to post the way you did. I respect your intelligence, factual knowledge, and dedication to Truth as you saw it; I regret your choice of methods. Still, it was your choice; you were intelligent enough and, I believe, self-aware enough, to have made that choice deliberately and with due regard for the consequences. I hope, wherever you are (if you are anywhere), that you find peace and continued opportunities to learn. And I hope that we who are left find an opportunity to learn from your life. == Posted by Janet Miles , or if you prefer anonymous email Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!warwick!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!news ~From: muon@sandy.ast.cam.ac.uk (T.C. Muon) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 01 Sep 1996 17:47:01 +0100 Organization: IoA, Cambridge ~Lines: 65 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sandy.ast.cam.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159090 panetta@finch.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (The Yendi) writes: > In article <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, > barbara trumpinski wrote: > >kitten is as white as a ghost as she drops the phone. "i just called > >speaker's bar in pasadena and the man who answered the phone said carl > >was found dead on friday. i don't know any other details. if anyone > >out there can help, please do." > The Yendi slumps in. "Sorry, All. I just got back from the Pasadena > Police Station, Records Section. They confirmed that Carl Lydick was > found dead in his apartment on Friday. Probable cause of death > was listed as 'illness'. > "I also called his bar. The manager there was also his landlord. > After not hearing from him for a week or so, the landlord entered > Carl's apartment and found him." > >she raises her glass in a silent toast. > "Mike, I know I'm allergic to NutraSweet, but in honor of Speaker, > I'd like a Dark Bacardi and Diet Coke." The door opens and a stranger walks in. He's of medium height, heavy build. He wears a black wool tunic, and flat grey leather shoes laced over black trousers, a charcoal cloak, clasped with a silver badge depicting a grinning dolphin. There's a leather thong with an inverted silver "T" around his neck. As he steps in he nods to Mike and puts down a black round shield embossed with an eight prong design, and a plain conical helmet with black and gray stripes, on the front are green slit eyes that seem to scan the room. Off his belt hangs a black headed battleaxe with a green shaft, the head looks as if it has passed through a great fire, the shaft has the legend "Parson's cleaver" engraved on it. Faint traces of rust and blue stain the top of the shaft. He walks to the bar and orders a baccardi and diet coke. His arms are bare but for a pair of silver bracelets, and show faint scarring as if repeatedly burnt. He walks to the chalk line and raises the glass to eye level. "To Carl. In 8 years our paths on this web crossed repeatedly and you never once called me a "moron", although I'm sure I deserved it on occasion." He leans forward and places drained glass on the log, ignoring the flames. He turns around, although he'd looked in he never thought he'd come here. Some look familiar from another place, even another world. He walks back to the bar and orders a Stella. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 00:19:34 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: <50dqp6$h7k@bermuda.io.com> ~References: <32245BC1.14AC@interpath.com> <50ccrk$r1h@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bermuda.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159112 On 1 Sep 1996 12:15:48 -0400 in alt.callahans, Pdeangu said: : I read the news about "Speaker to Minerals" just before leaving town for a : short trip. As a relative newcomer to Callahan's I wandered into some of : his threads. The verbal pryotechnics were stunning; what a fighter! At : first I tried to contribute a fact here and there that I was sure of, but : was ignored for my trouble. "Paul..." Leslie says softly. "The fact that he ignored you was a *good* sign. He was not into 'me too' posts, at all; he wouldn't have followed up to you just to say 'I agree,' or something. So if he ignored you, you can safely assume one of two things: he didn't know enough about the subject to make an informed comment, or, you didn't say anything he thought was inaccurate." Leslie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 03:08:24 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 25 Message-ID: <50e4lo$903@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <32272B8F.2B77@rand.nidlink.com> <50baus$jps@xanadu.io.com> <50d7sl$199@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159134 On 1 Sep 1996 23:57:09 GMT in alt.callahans, Rachel Meredith Kadel said: [Thanks for the info, Rachel.] : >"Well, sure, low blood sugar can make anyone cranky. That's why he : >specifically gave kitten a 2X4: to whack some sense into him, if : >she caught him not keeping an eye on it." : : Yeah. But he can't possibly have been low the entire time he was on : the net. "Ya, that was sort of my point. And that was one thing I never did figure out how to figure out...how to tell the difference between him flaming out of crankiness related to blood sugar, and him flaming out of reasoned deliberation." Leslie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 04:24:19 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 132 Message-ID: <50e943$bcj@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bb95e6$af00c2e0$04b33ece@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50a9fd$oc8@pentagon.io.com> <50afos$ibe@news1.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159087 On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:55:21 GMT in alt.callahans, Chris Barnhart - (TechnoPup) said: : >: When I've flamed, albeit here or somewhere else, I've been called on : >: the carpet for it, and perhaps rightfully so. Though I think that : >: there is a time to express anger. : : >"Okay--so, you have your own personal standards as to what constitutes : >'a time to express anger.' Why do you feel that StM should've also : >been bound by *your* standards, rather than his own? What if StM : >diagreed with *you* about when and where and how you expressed anger? : >Would you have agreed to follow his standards after that?" : : Leslie, you digress as you always seem to. "Oh, I don't know. Considering the latter part of your post, it seems quite a relevant tangent, to me." : I am not claiming Carl : should have done anything. I"m stating my own (as you pointed out) : personal beliefs on Carl. "But, basically, you didn't think he was worth much, because he flamed people. Because he didn't care about the feelings of others when he flamed (which he didn't). You feel he should have cared more about the feelings of others. "And I was pointing out that you and he just had different criteria for what constituted 'a time to express anger.' The difference between you is one of degree, not of substance." [...] : If you re-read your own : posts to this thread, any time someone has started out with anything : you disagree with, it has been: Ooh... Carl wouldn't have liked that. : Carl would have flamed you for that. That's not what Carl would have : said. My argument is in response to that. Why are Carl's feelings : more important, dead or alive? "Well, since the people in question were talking about Carl, it did seem very relevant to me that Carl's point of view ought to be represented, also. I'm not sure where you get the 'more important' bit, exactly, though. Certainly, he ought to be considered the expert on himself, no? And, if people are going to be discussing him, they ought to be aware of what *he* thought, especially if they've misunder- stood him on some point, or are simply unware of what he thought. Speaking for myself, I know I really dislike it when I find out I've misunderstood someone, and appreciate having it straightened out." : >"He had a lot of regard for the feelings of others, as I know from : >personal experience, and so do many others. But he did regard : >truthfullness and accuracy more important than mere feelings, yes. : >And, why is it okay for you to express your insulting opinion about : >a 'Napoleonic complex,' but it wasn't okay for him to express his : >opinion that someone was a moron?" : : You almost have a point there. If Carl had feelings for others, : great, I'll take your word for it. If you think it is insulting to : think that Carl had a Napoleonic complex, so be it. Maybe it is. "Um, I've never heard it used in a *complimentary* fashion. Have you?" : I didn't say I was better than him, did I? I didn't say he was worse. : I just said I didn't like him and I was sick of you jumping all over : anyone who tried to offer feelings contradictory to yours by means of : claiming to speak for the deceased. "I still think you're over-reacting to what I've been saying. I haven't contradicted people's *feelings* (I don't think)--I have contradicted things which I know, or believe, to be wrong, though. And 'jumping all over' implies to my mind the idea of 'attacking.' I have been *responding* to people, yes, but not *everyone*, not even to everyone who voiced a less than complimentary opinion of StM." : Ask yourself your own question. Why is it someone who didn't like : Carl is jumped on by you? Must everyone answer to the great : net-goddess Leslie? You have railed against many, defying logic and : syntax on several occasions, just to speak for Carl. "This is insulting, exaggerating, and distorting, not to mention a couple of outright lies. Don't you care about my feelings, at all? "I have NOT 'jumped on' EVERYONE who didn't like Carl. I have jumped on INACCURACIES in the things some have said, though. Hell, I corrected a person who LIKED Carl (the one who said 'he was always right about the facts'). I have NOT 'railed against many,' I outright flamed ONE person, and sniped at another. This is 'many'? And if you're going to accuse me of 'defying logic' and 'syntax' on several occasions, I'm going to ask you to provide examples to back up that accusation, to allow me to defend myself. How can I defend myself against such a vague assertation? I'm reduced to saying 'did not!' "But, actually, I'm not especially surprised to see you flaming me. More than one person has transferred their anger at StM to me, because I speak up for his point of view. But try to keep us separate in your mind, if you can. Just because I *present* his point of view doesn't necessarily mean I agree with it, or condone or excuse it. I am *explaining* him, most of all. I will admit to forgiving him, however." : >"Asking him the question, 'why are you doing this?' always got a civil : >explanation. I know. I have tons of email to prove it, not to mention : >all the threads where he explained why he did what he did." : : Perhaps. But you have said before that you and he were like minded. : Can you state for a fact that this is true of everyone who asked him : why he did something? If you claim you can, aren't you going against : those principles you claim that you and he shared? "It's true of everyone who asked him politely and sincerely and in good faith, so far as I know." : >: *I* feel better for having said it, and I guess that's what memorial : >: is all about. If there is an afterlife of any sort, I can wish for : >: Carl that he finds there what he is looking for. Would he grant me : >: the same respect? I honestly don't know. : : >"I don't know either." : : Nor do I care. "Bullshit, you don't care," Leslie says softly. "If you didn't care, you wouldn't be so angry at the thought that he wouldn't grant that respect. Unless you can honestly say you are indifferent to the question entirely..." Leslie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.csd.net!ares.csd.net!mark ~From: mark@ares.csd.net (Mark Tarka) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 07:49:34 GMT Organization: Computer Systems Design Company ~Lines: 21 Message-ID: <50e3ie$se5@apollo.csd.net> ~References: <32245BC1.14AC@interpath.com> <50ccrk$r1h@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <50dqp6$h7k@bermuda.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ares.csd.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159126 leslie@io.com (Leslie) writes: >On 1 Sep 1996 12:15:48 -0400 in alt.callahans, >Pdeangu said: [Snip...] >: was ignored for my trouble. >"Paul..." Leslie says softly. "The fact that he ignored you was a *good* >sign. He was not into 'me too' posts, at all; he wouldn't have followed >up to you just to say 'I agree,' or something. So if he ignored you, you [Snip...] Agreed. Carl didn't waste bandwidth asking people standing beside him, if they really intended to stand beside him. Mark Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.sojourn.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.ptd.net!news ~From: "Kevin D. Knerr, Sr." ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 12:22:36 -0400 Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc. ~Lines: 86 Message-ID: <322B09CB.66E7@prolog.net> ~References: <32263D91.457F@prolog.net> <50a63p$mog@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs3-07.haz.ptd.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b7Gold (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159130 Leslie wrote: > On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:02:09 -0400 in alt.callahans, > Kevin D. Knerr, Sr. said: > : Carl held rigid definitions of truth, freedom, and choice. (Which > : should explain to prior posters why he described himself as a > : "non-insulin dependent diabetic who uses insulin". As far as he was > : concerned, diabetes did not force him to use insulin--he chose to use > : insulin to treat his diabetic condition.) > > "No; see Brandon's post, if you can, where he explains the difference > in the types of diabetes. (IDDM means the body produces no insulin; > NIDDM means it produces insulin in some amounts, but the body isn't > able to use it properly.)" Another small smile. "He probably would > have castigated you for talking about diabetes when you obviously > don't know much about it. Get your facts straight *first*, he'd say." Gee, as I recall, when we were speaking about the issues of "force", you yourself used the example of him "choosing" to use insulin. I was not (and am not) totally ignorant of the different types of diabetes and their differing aspects and treatments. (But neither am I a medical specialist.) For emphasis--diabetes runs in my family and I will probably develop it in a few years, as did my father and grandfather: I have a need to know about it. My point was that the medical definition of "insulin-dependant" or "non-insulin-dependant" was irrelevant to StM. It was always "his choice" to use insulin. And if I'm wrong on that, then I suspect that we have actually found an instance in which StM himself would admit that he was "forced" to do something. > : Carl never really cared what people thought of him > : personally--objective truth was that much more important to him. > : Carl believed that everyone else should hold the same commitment to > : objective truth. Given the number of comments I've read, I suspect he > : never realized that his abrasive and abusive language was detracting > : from his ability to share his knowledge and insights with others. Or he > : just plain didn't care. > > "He figured two things: one, if people didn't listen to him when he > corrected them politely, which he generally did to begin with, then > they probably weren't going to listen in any case, so *then* he abandoned > teaching in favor of providing a hostile environment for whatever the > subject was. And, two, he really didn't understand how people could > be more concerned over style rather than substance. He figured that was > their problem, not his." I'm not surprised to hear you say that about him. The argument of form vs. substance has been going on for thousands of years. In point of fact, I am more like Carl in that I prefer substance over form. However, in order to be effective, I've found that sometimes you need to provide an appealing form for the substance to be accepted. I hate and despise that fact that it's often so, but I've learned to accept that it IS so. > : Carl, despite his rigorous self-discipline, sometimes failed to > : achieve his own high standards in his posts. He would make assumptions > : about their starting principles. He held stereotypes and preconceived > : notions about others' motives and ideas. > : But, IMHO, Carl's tragic flaw was his refusal to acknowledge that > : others might succumb to weakness and pain. Because he stood valiantly > : against his own infirmity and pain, he could not see why others might > : stumble. > > "He understood about weaknesses, but he absolutely refused to allow > anyone to get away with making excuses for themselves. He rather > demanded that they take responsibility for themselves, and not shift > the blame elsewhere. And I found him to be upfront and honest about > his own flaws and foibles." There's a fine line between making excuses and stating causes. Often, the attitude of the observer determines how the same statement is perceived. Sometimes a person who says "I had a bad day" really means "I behaved poorly because I had a bad day". In the first place, it's much harder to know the context in our virtual communications. Secondly, most humans tend to shorten and abbreviate anyway, IMHO. (for example) Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just think about it: Windows 95 is Commodore Amiga '84--almost, but not quite. "Friends don't let friends do Windows. Be a designated Amigan." A public service message from Ld. Barthel. kknerrsr@prolog.net Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.supernet.net!news.magicnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-f.computek.net!fnord.dfw.net!news.pcnet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!chatter!Bob_Gilbert ~From: Bob_Gilbert@chatter.com (Bob Gilbert) ~Reply-To: Bob_Gilbert@chatter.com ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Distribution: world ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 02 Sep 1996 08:46:32 GMT Message-ID: <577302493.47804709@chatter.com> Organization: The ChatterBox BBS , Justin Texas ~Lines: 62 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159133 uribe@ibm.net,Internet writes: Soprano smiles through her tears. "Sorry, I never saw Carl scowling. Despite (or perhaps because of?) his Kzinti persona here, Carl in person was never anything but polite and soft-spoken in my presence." Soprano -- I never knew the Carl you knew, I only knew the one who posted here and him I most definitely did not like. Not even a little bit. I have given this post due consideration for the time we have known StM to be dead and I still hesitate to send it. I hesitate because I don't want anyone here to hate me for the way I feel about Speaker. For those who remember, I came to this list approximately 18 months ago and had made only a couple of posts of introduction, when my wife who I had been previously seperated from, told me she wanted a divorce. In a state of tears I posted a toast to her here, titled 'Toast to one whom I love.' Those of you who sent me private e-mail and those of you who posted messages to me here made a vast difference in my emotional state. Only those who have faced losing a soul mate can understand how much help those messages were to me. I have saved each and every one and some of the most thoughtful, helpful, giving messages were from those of you who are most affected by Speaker's death. Yet still, Speaker himself did not send any message to me and in fact very soon after my post took several in this place to task for, if I remember correctly, expressing sympathy which Carl felt could not be sincere, to someone else who had posted a message much like the one I posted. My emotional state at the time was such that I felt unable to become involved in one of Carl's flamewars. As time passed, while I stopped posting I continued to lurk in Callahan's reading everything posted. I became more and more disenchanted with Speaker's posts and eventually stopped lurking. I simply did not have the strength to risk drawing the point of Speaker's flames by posting and felt anger toward him because his flames kept me from posting at a time when I very much needed to. I remember and I think many of you will also, the thread with someone who maintained Speaker was responsible for driving many from Callahan's. I am sure he did and I think now many will return. For well over a year I have opened Callahan's every couple of weeks, looked and if I saw posts from Speaker, opened a couple, spotted the term, shit for brains, closed them and left Callahan's for a few more weeks only to repeat. I know Speaker meant much to many many of you and I grieve for you. As Doone said, (paraphase) 'the death of anyone diminishes me', so it is with Speaker. His death diminishes me and all of you. Will I miss him? No, I won't. Am I glad he no longer posts to alt. Callahan's? Yes I am glad his posts are no longer here. I would however, have much rather he just stopped posting as opposed to dying. Still yet, I know many of you loved him and miss him and I offer all of you the hug you gave me in my time of trouble. I hope you will accept it in the spirit it is given and at the same time forgive me for my inability to like Speaker. I didn't like him and at the same time, while I have never participated to any degree, I love this place and should have been an active member many months ago. I did not for the simple reason I knew the possibility of posting anything without drawing Speaker's flames was very remote and I did not feel able to defend against him. Staffwalker, bob_gilbert@chatter.com Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!newsfeeder.gi.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 15:07:12 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50fepg$3th@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507dvb$i82@xanadu.io.com> <50b46s$gcq@xanadu.io.com> <50b8mb$okm@news1.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159136 On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 06:00:38 GMT in alt.callahans, Chris Barnhart - (TechnoPup) said: : leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: : >"This is utter bullshit. I'm doing it for me, and nobody else but me." : : >Leslie. I had to say that. He'd have called me a bad name if I didn't. : : Whether you believe it or not, I'm very glad you said that. Not the : bullshit part, the doing it for yourself part. That's what matters. The important part is being aware of what you're doing, and why. And not making excuses. I'd be insulting his memory if I made excuses for something I did. : No matter how much we disagree or argue about StM, I understand you : are in pain and I *do* feel for you. Friendship isn't easy to find, : and I don't doubt that you found it with Carl. Thank you. It's not so much pain as it is sadness, and a feeling of emptiness in the space he used to fill. Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail ~From: snarf@access4.digex.net (Dreamweaver) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 16:54:01 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA ~Lines: 46 Message-ID: <50fhh9$jm8@access4.digex.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vv1u9$oiv@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vvstr$28t@boris.eden.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159125 Starknight wrote: >Set me up a double, Mike... It's a wake! Nothing shakes the rafters as hard as something like this. This is the third wake this year for me and... Oh fuck it. I was checking out the Place for the first time in a long time, and of course half the articles have to do with Speaker, but this time r.i.p was next to his name. Okay. Okay. Okay. Um... Okay, so I go ahead and save as many of the articles as I can and then go read them and cry and laugh and smile and try to figure out what I want to do, if anything. So here goes. Bacardi and Diet Coke in hand (blech). Dreamweaver brings out a little box of straw men he's collected over the past 4 years. All the times I re-thought an argument and found the flaw in it before Speaker could. All the times I decided the discussion was too complicated for me and I really didn't want to spend/waste the time. All the moments I agreed with him but never told him. This goes into the fire, all the flames that could have been but never were. Even quiet as a stone, Speaker-to-Minerals still somehow manages to make this a noisy place. :) There's also the stub of a red candle, for all the times I got to see the caring and compassionate side. Those moments when what needed to be said actually got said. That gets thrown in, too. In all these things I remember Carl Lydick, Speaker-to-Minerals. I will not forget you. -- ... elsewhere, laughing at the wind... Sean Eustis The Dreamweaver "Now my charms are all o'erthrown, and what strength I have's mine own..." Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: The Last Speaker Thread (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker) ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 21:01:46 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 78 Message-ID: <502tma$30c@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 27 Aug 1996 14:13:43 GMT in alt.callahans, Claudia Mastroianni said: : : "To a loyal friend, a stubborn arguer, an ass, a scientist; someone : people blamed when they left alt.callahans, someone people laughed : to see 'still here' when they came back. I never liked his tactics, : but I came to respect his goals. To Carl Lydick, Speaker to Minerals." "I read everything he wrote, whenever the subject of his tactics came up, and discussed it in email with him, too. And, given his priorities in life (which only occasionally intersected with the priorities of most other folks), I could never find any flaws in his chain of logic which lead him to adopt and use the tactics he did. (Well, I did spot one weak link--but I never got the chance to bring it up...) "While many people did, I think, think of him as 'just a flamer,' and stopped paying attention to him, many others here have repeated one common phrase--'he taught me something' or 'I learned something because of him.' How many of us can say we had the same impact on so many others? *That*, my fellow Patrons, is his *real* legacy. "He wasn't a patient teacher, not with adults whom he expected to know better, but a teacher he was, at heart. He truly believed in the adage 'give a man a fish, and you've fed him for a day...teach a man to fish, and you've fed him for a lifetime.' It was not his way to 'hand out answers' or to spoon-feed logic and explanations to people. Instead, his arguments were designed to get people to *think things through* for *themselves*, knowing as he did that that was the *best* way for people to truly *understand* something. He didn't want people who could parrot back 'correct' answers. He wanted them to *know* WHY and how and where and when it was correct. "He taught me about logic. Without him, I doubt I'd have become aware of just how seldom I *do* think before opening my mouth. He taught me the importance of questioning one's basic assumptions. He taught me to be on guard against generalizing from my own experiences and prejudices. He taught me that it was really okay for me to have my own opinions, and that I had every right to express them if I chose to. "He taught me the meaning of the word 'antinomy,' too, in a way Spider Robinson couldn't. It describes a condition where one is torn between equally strong, equally necessary--and totally opposing-- emotions. When someone I cared very much about said they were leaving a.c. because of StM, it ripped my heart in two. How could I chose? According to my own personal ethics, I couldn't wish StM gone, I couldn't even be angry at him. "What I did wish...I don't know what I wished. I wished there could have been a way for StM to 'fit into' the Place, just as he was. I wished he didn't have so damn MANY pet peeves in life. I wished people had understood him better. I wished he could have had just a *little* more patience. I wished people had more patience with him... "But I never would have changed a thing about the way he shot from the hip, always saying exactly what he thought. He despised 'pussyfooting around,' and the hypocrisy of couching insults in polite rather than blunt language. I trusted him in a way I don't think I ever have, or ever could, trust someone more 'diplomatic' or 'tactful.' But that could be because he came in so strongly on 'my wavelength.' For all the million and one things I didn't know about him, I felt I *knew* him. He felt more like a brother to me than my own RL brother does..." : Claudia offers hugs to any who want them. "If I'm included in that offer, I'll take one. And thank you." Leslie. --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: The Last Speaker Thread (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 02:43:41 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50304t$o7i@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <502tma$30c@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu claudia: >: "To a loyal friend, a stubborn arguer, an ass, a scientist; someone >: people blamed when they left alt.callahans, someone people laughed >: to see 'still here' when they came back. I never liked his tactics, >: but I came to respect his goals. To Carl Lydick, Speaker to Minerals." leslie: >"I read everything he wrote, whenever the subject of his tactics >came up, and discussed it in email with him, too. And, given his >priorities in life (which only occasionally intersected with the >priorities of most other folks), I could never find any flaws in his >chain of logic which lead him to adopt and use the tactics he did. >(Well, I did spot one weak link--but I never got the chance to bring >it up...) >"While many people did, I think, think of him as 'just a flamer,' >and stopped paying attention to him, many others here have repeated >one common phrase--'he taught me something' or 'I learned something >because of him.' How many of us can say we had the same impact on so >many others? *That*, my fellow Patrons, is his *real* legacy. [you all read it, i don't need to repeat it] "someone suggested i might be the one to write his obituary...but this is his epitaph....thank you leslie." -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!netnews.com!udel-eecis!delmarva.com!imci4!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!world!news.bu.edu!ACS.BU.EDU!mjmh ~From: mjmh@bu.edu (Michael Holmes) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: The Last Speaker Thread (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 19:01:56 GMT Organization: Boston University ~Lines: 142 Message-ID: <504pf5$aam@news.bu.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <502tma$30c@xanadu.io.com> <50304t$o7i@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Mike Holmes, leaving /* aside for the moment, steps back into Callahan's bar. His face is rather blank. Serious. Subdued. "I don't really know what I want to say. I don't know that I'm one of the right people to 'eulogize' Carl. I know that I knew him better than many others here, but I also know that I didn't know him the _best_ out of everyone here. "And even after almost four years of electronic conversations, I can't say that I knew him as well as I would have liked." Mike looks into the fireplace, staring at the dancing flames, collecting his thoughts. "There was a tendency, in some folx, to look at him in 'larger- than-life' terms while he was alive, and perhaps there's even more an urge to do so in reflection on his passing. I don't know that I want to do that, though. I want to consider him in as human terms as I can. And... in as realistic a way as possible." "His net.persona, Speaker-to-Minerals, had faults. He often had reasons and justifications for some of his more controversial behaviors, but that doesn't mean that he *was* always right about what he did and how he did it." "How these faults and controversial behaviors reflected the personality of Carl Lydick, the man, is not something I can comment on with any certainty... but based on what others have said, and through my own private e-mail with him, I _believe_ that there were some definite differences between who he was in reality, and who he was on-line. At least when it came to impatience and abruptness." "But I would like to relate a part of the more human side of him... of Carl, as he presented himself to us *through* the persona of Speaker-to-Minerals. As *I* knew him." "He had a sense of humor. He punned, frequently and often esoterically. He had a great mastery of trivia. He liked musicals. He cared about people, particularly if he feared they were not looking at an adverse situation realistically. He hated the 'victimy' mentality." "He also... used to speak more openly about his life. Family sorrows and pain. Dealing with diabetes. Unrequited love." "That changed, over the years, and I'm not sure why. But he grew more private about his own life." Mike sits, silent again, for several minutes. "I want to tell a story about a real interaction between me and Carl... something that I've always held onto as giving insight into who he was... or at least, who I think he was." "There was a time in this newsgroup when I took a public stand, during one of those common threads discussing Speaker's style of presentation, and how appropriate it was. This evolved into an ongoing thread in public, and into some group email which included both myself and Speaker, and into some private email, as well." "It was quite a brou-ha-ha." "At one point, Carl, who was obviously taking the brunt of this, took the time out to e-mail me a rather lengthy note. It discussed some of the broader issues involved -- I'm sure many of you know them, they have to do with freedom of speech, personalities, honesty, and particularly whether an insult said nicely is any better than an insult said bluntly." "But beyond the issues involved in the thread, Carl pointed out that the stance *I* had taken was bound to be unpopular with some people, and that I would take some heat for it. He said that he was sorry that I would have to take that heat, and sorry that it was in part a result of his actions. And he asked me to let him know if there was anything he could do to help me deal with any problems that might result." "It was a very human moment, and it meant a great deal to me. He knew the points in which I disagreed with him, but that didn't matter. He expressed concern, and expressed it well. And I appreciated that." "And during times in which his behavior might lead me to forget his human side, all I needed to do was remember that message." "That was far from the only time he expressed something like that, but, for some reason, it was the one that always stood out in my mind. Nothing earth-shattering, nothing larger-than-life, just a very ordinary human moment. But that's what made it so important, to me." Mike sighs again, feeling a little lost, a little too... tired. "There's one more thing I feel compelled to mention. Many people are hearing of the full extent of his health problems for the first time. There is a very... human... impulse to excuse or explain some of his more aggressive posts as due to his illness, or to the emotional stress of dealing with illness." "Please don't do that. He never used his illness as an excuse, and in fact became quite angry if people tried to forgive him or excuse him based on stress from his diabetes or other medical complications. He took full responsibility for his words and actions, though not always in ways others might wish him to, and he did not want his behavior attributed to diminished capacity or emotional stress." "I think if we truly want to honor his memory in a way he would approve of, we should keep this in mind." Mike ponders again for several moments, in silence. He takes up a glass of rum and coke, though he passes on the diet coke... and makes a toast. A toast he hopes is in keeping with both his own beliefs, and with Carl's, as best as he can tell. He raises his glass and speaks slowly and clearly. "To Carl... you did make a difference. You mattered. You had an effect." Downing the drink, Mike underhands it into the fireplace. And stares into the fire. "I'm going to miss you, Carl. Warts and all." -- Mike Holmes Boston University -- No man is an Island, entire of it self; every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. -- John Donne ( 1571? - 1631 ), Meditation XVII Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: The Last Speaker Thread (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker) ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 13:32:38 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <50cks6$ija@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502tma$30c@xanadu.io.com> <50304t$o7i@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504pf5$aam@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159102 /*: >"I don't really know what I want to say. I don't know that I'm >one of the right people to 'eulogize' Carl. I know that I knew Well, I feel that you are one of the right people. You are fair and honest. DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!atmnet.net!usenet ~From: bob@linkline.com (Bob Clevenger) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:52:58 -0700 Organization: Not Bloody Likely! ~Lines: 21 Message-ID: <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> ~Reply-To: bob@linkline.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.67.165.121 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158675 comp.os.vms:154356 daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) wrote: >...didn't like Lydick's net presense much, but it isn't really because >he was abusive, it is primarily because I thought he was no more aware of his >own failings that were those he criticized. > >I am inexplicably saddened at the word of his death. > >I do hope, however, that should news of my own death one day reach this >news group at least one of you will have the guts to suggest the >world has suffered no great loss. The world will little note nor will it be greatly diminished by the death of Carl. Those of us who knew him, even briefly, are another matter completely. -=Bob=- in Ontario, Calif. NRA, CRPA, SCA, IOOF, N6MLV I'm a politician's worst nightmare --- A voter with a memory! Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!news ~From: Thomas Dzubin ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 17:36:15 GMT Organization: Repap BC Inc. ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: line187.nwm.mindlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158596 comp.os.vms:154286 (crossposted to alt.callahans AND comp.os.vms) dpm@access4.digex.net (David P. Murphy) wrote: >"I'm new here, and maybe i'm out of line to do this, but ya'll care about >the guy one way or another, so maybe you'd wanna know about this letter. >i wrote it, i mailed it, and i guess i'd do it again. comp.os.vms was the >best of newsgroups and the worst of newsgroups because of him --- >but i didn't want him fired and i sure as hell didn't want him dead." > >he tacks the papers up on the wall at http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm >then just as slowly walks over to the bar. (after toasting with a Root Beer and vodka....) Thanks PhaseOfTheMoon for posting this extra information. we certainly don't blame you for anything...this all might of happened eventually with or without the letter. I too was one of the "verbally abused" many times on COMP.OS.VMS but after waiting for my blood pressure to come down I realized that Carl was almost always right...he just had a ...different...way of telling people. I shall miss him and I will probably now be visiting alt.callahans a bit more. I guess we now know that The Great Beyond will be changing OS platforms to OpenVMS Real Soon Now. :-) Mike, better order up another case of Root Beer...I think we're getting low. Faversham Vancouver, BC. CANADA Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.ysu.edu!news.cmich.edu!342e5b7 ~From: M'jit M Raindancer <342E5B7@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu> ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:45:17 EDT Organization: Central Michigan University ~Lines: 9 Message-ID: <96241.214517342E5B7@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Disclaimer: Author bears full responsibility for this post ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158646 comp.os.vms:154345 I first came under fire from Speaker when I made the mistake of making a few blanket statements about Christians and their stand on abortion. I ended my input on the thread by grabbing the fire extinguisher and liberally hosing him down. I can't remember if he yelled at me for being immature or just turned away in disgust. I do remeber his reply seeming pretty cold, though. M'jit Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!daq ~From: daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) Followup-To: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 21:58:52 GMT Organization: PROTEUS ~Lines: 46 Message-ID: <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpesdaq.fc.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1.4] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158613 comp.os.vms:154322 Thomas Dzubin (dzubint@vcn.bc.ca) wrote: : (crossposted to alt.callahans AND comp.os.vms) : dpm@access4.digex.net (David P. Murphy) wrote: : >"I'm new here, and maybe i'm out of line to do this, but ya'll care about : >the guy one way or another, so maybe you'd wanna know about this letter. : >i wrote it, i mailed it, and i guess i'd do it again. comp.os.vms was the : >best of newsgroups and the worst of newsgroups because of him --- : >but i didn't want him fired and i sure as hell didn't want him dead." : > : >he tacks the papers up on the wall at http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm : >then just as slowly walks over to the bar. : (after toasting with a Root Beer and vodka....) : Thanks PhaseOfTheMoon for posting this extra information. we certainly : don't blame you for anything...this all might of happened eventually : with or without the letter. : I too was one of the "verbally abused" many times on COMP.OS.VMS : but after waiting for my blood pressure to come down I realized that : Carl was almost always right...he just had a ...different...way of : telling people. I shall miss him and I will probably now be visiting : alt.callahans a bit more. : I guess we now know that The Great Beyond will be changing OS platforms : to OpenVMS Real Soon Now. :-) Complaining to superiors about a person's net behavior is always inappropriate. ...didn't like Lydick's net presense much, but it isn't really because he was abusive, it is primarily because I thought he was no more aware of his own failings that were those he criticized. I am inexplicably saddened at the word of his death. I do hope, however, that should news of my own death one day reach this news group at least one of you will have the guts to suggest the world has suffered no great loss. My sympathies are with those suffering from Carl's death. doug Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 28 Aug 1996 23:32:10 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 24 Message-ID: <502ktq$h3f@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158632 comp.os.vms:154333 doug formerly known as the cynic: >...didn't like Lydick's net presense much, but it isn't really because >he was abusive, it is primarily because I thought he was no more aware of his >own failings that were those he criticized. >I am inexplicably saddened at the word of his death. >I do hope, however, that should news of my own death one day reach this >news group at least one of you will have the guts to suggest the >world has suffered no great loss. "you won't hear it from me...not because i lack guts, but because i don't bellieve it." >My sympathies are with those suffering from Carl's death. "thanks." kitten smiles at doug. -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!netnews.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!munnari.OZ.AU!metro!metro!news ~From: alh@Physics.usyd.edu.au (Shonias) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 03:03:35 GMT Organization: School of Physics, University of Sydney, Australia ~Lines: 24 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <5031a7$ra1@metro.usyd.edu.au> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: suphys.physics.usyd.edu.au In article <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com>, Doug Quarnstrom wrote: >I do hope, however, that should news of my own death one day reach this >news group at least one of you will have the guts to suggest the >world has suffered no great loss. But Doug, when does world suffer much loss? The world suffered no great loss at the passing of my dear beagle, but a small group of people have suffered a lot. Same would be true of your passing I would imagine. And those who pop up in many newsgroups, well, their passing may actually impact on a lot of the world, it could at least be said the world has suffered some loss. But no, the world has suffered no great loss at the passing of Carl Lydick. >My sympathies are with those suffering from Carl's death. And mine. Shonias -- *********************************** Thunder and lightning in the dark Light up the fires inside my heart. *********************************** Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!urvile.msus.edu!jstafford.winona.msus.edu!user ~From: Stafford@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:46:31 -0500 Organization: WSUIS ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jstafford.winona.msus.edu x-no-archive: yes X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b27.1+ ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158753 comp.os.vms:154443 In article <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com>, daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) wrote: > [snip] > In other words, is noone willing to be a bit of a bastard in > memory of Carl? I think he would have wanted it that way. ;-) Funny, but I have a feeling that the person who takes over Carl's job will be so challenged that he will eventually _become_ a bastard! Good luck, Cal Tech! (still smiling) $edit/edt/nocommand lydick-archive.lis subs /shit-for-brians/sweetie/ 1:32767 /notype exit $exit ! R.I.P -- John J. Stafford - Winona State University Information Services Path: news2.digex.net!lynx.unm.edu!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!sloth.swcp.com!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 18:58:26 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 11 Message-ID: <505ar2$aol@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <96241.214517342E5B7@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159026 On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:45:17 EDT in alt.callahans, M'jit M Raindancer <342E5B7@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu> said: : I first came under fire from Speaker when I made the mistake of making a few : blanket statements about Christians and their stand on abortion. I ended : my input on the thread by grabbing the fire extinguisher and liberally hosing : him down. "I remember that. I told him to quit trolling the Christians, already..." Leslie. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!news.eff.org!news.apk.net!wariat.org!kf8nh.apk.net!news ~From: bsa@kf8nh.apk.net (Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 20:05:24 -0400 Organization: Brandon's home server in Parma, Ohio ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <505b84$7jt@kf8nh.apk.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kf8nh.apk.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158783 comp.os.vms:154471 Also sprach kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) (<504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>): +----- | >In other words, is noone willing to be a bit of a bastard in | >memory of Carl? I think he would have wanted it that way. | | most folks who didn't like him are trying to show respect for those of | us who did. (i could be wrong and i don't want to claim to know how | other people feel....but that's my take on the situation.)" +--->8 Hell, yes, he was a b*st*rd on the 'Net. Then again, ask my boss how I am in person. (I think Speaker and I were opposites in that regard.) Which makes it difficult for me to rant too much about him: "hello Mr. Kettle, I'm Mr. Pot...!" -- ++brandon s. allbery flying with merlin! bsa@kf8nh.apk.net telotech's "loup-guru" :-) FORZA CREW! bsa@telotech.com Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!daq ~From: daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) Followup-To: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 16:38:54 GMT Organization: PROTEUS ~Lines: 16 Message-ID: <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpesdaq.fc.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1.4] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158730 comp.os.vms:154415 Bob Clevenger (bob@linkline.com) wrote: : The world will little note nor will it be greatly diminished by the : death of Carl. Those of us who knew him, even briefly, are another : matter completely. Of course. It is difficult for the common man to impress the world with positive achievement. This does not make him irrelevant. But I do still think Carl might have respected someone who did not soft-pedal their distaste for him just because he has died. I feel the same way, and I was just trying to make that point as, well, tactfully as I might. In other words, is noone willing to be a bit of a bastard in memory of Carl? I think he would have wanted it that way. doug Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 17:42:28 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 31 Message-ID: <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158737 comp.os.vms:154421 >Bob Clevenger (bob@linkline.com) wrote: >: The world will little note nor will it be greatly diminished by the >: death of Carl. Those of us who knew him, even briefly, are another >: matter completely. doug: >Of course. It is difficult for the common man to impress the >world with positive achievement. This does not make him >irrelevant. But I do still think Carl might have respected >someone who did not soft-pedal their distaste for him just >because he has died. I feel the same way, and I was just >trying to make that point as, well, tactfully as I might. >In other words, is noone willing to be a bit of a bastard in >memory of Carl? I think he would have wanted it that way. kitten sort of agrees...."i think that there are people who are being honest about their feelings...to quote t.c. 'i didn't like the man, but i didn't wish him ill'. and (in another newsgroup) someone who really hated speaker said so...that he wasn't sorry that he was dead. most folks who didn't like him are trying to show respect for those of us who did. (i could be wrong and i don't want to claim to know how other people feel....but that's my take on the situation.)" -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news1.radix.net!news ~From: "Chris Barnhart" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 17:53:42 GMT Organization: RadixNet Internet Services ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <01bb95d3$4ddd2fc0$2e8b9dcc@cbarnhart.radix.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin23.annex4.radix.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158739 comp.os.vms:154426 Kitten said: > most folks who didn't like him are trying to show respect for those of > us who did. (i could be wrong and i don't want to claim to know how > other people feel....but that's my take on the situation.)" > > -- > kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski > /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" > {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're > ~ not anywhere at all?' > I quite agree. It may be interpreted as respect for the dead, but it has more to do with respect for the living. The people who are in mourning for StM (now St. M? :>) are people I care about and if I had hard feelings on the subject, I would most likely keep them to myself just out of respect for them... Which, I add hastily, doesn't mean I think *ill* of anyone who chooses differently, not that it matters so much what I think. It's just a choice I've made for myself. ______________________________________________________________________ _ Chris Barnhart - TechnoPup | "Verbosity leads to unclear, cbarnhart@radix.net | inarticulate things." http://www.radix.net/~cbarnhart | -Dan Quayle ________________________________|_____________________________________ _ Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news2.interlog.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 22:29:16 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 49 Message-ID: <505jls$qcq@zot.io.org> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. The lighter side: One net.legend's comments on another...(check out the original article). ------------ ~From: Archimedes.Plutonium@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium) ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.med,sci.bio.misc,sci.math,sci.astro, alt.fan.jai-maharaj ~Subject: Styx and Re: Carl Lydick ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 22:18:04 GMT Organization: Pu ~Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5054us$r9c@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> In article <504o84$4g0@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Archimedes.Plutonium@dartmouth.edu (Archimedes Plutonium) writes: [AP deleted a looong Enemies List, plus the warning that anyone might be 'struck dead' at any time by the Maker] > Someone must keep a statistical track of the above persons as to > birth, what kind of people they were, job, death and any other > correlation points, other than the fact that the Electrons caused them > to blasphemy the Maker, Our Maker, 231PU. ATOM Statistical correlation of a group of science clowns. Carl Lydick to my best guess was a squawking bird in his previous life, at least that is what I could make out from his posting behavior on the Internet attacking me, and to my best guess will be reincarnated as a blind and dumb to his physical surroundings, with a big squawking mouth and have a terrible go at life. He will be 231PU's guinea pig experiment of a know nothing of his surroundings and squawk so loud that his enemies, crows or other birds come in and take him away. This will be repeated many times for the photon/neutrino soul of Carl Lydick so that he learns that lesson. See the Indian philosophy of Hindu religion to learn how one breaks the chain of a stuck-in-reincarnation. Remember that Hindu teachings predates the Atom theory of Democritus and the One Atom Everything of plutonium by milleniums. So, whenever you see a little bird in a nest or on the ground squawking real loud that has a high probability of being the reincarnated Carl Lydick, until his lesson is learned that he is a no nothing loud mouthed voyager of the immense and beautiful Creator 231PU. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!access4.digex.net!jaelle ~From: Judy Gerjuoy ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:06:29 -0400 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, USA ~Lines: 29 Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jaelle@access4.digex.net To: barbara trumpinski In-Reply-To: <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158782 comp.os.vms:154470 On 29 Aug 1996, barbara trumpinski wrote: [snip] > kitten sort of agrees...."i think that there are people who are being > honest about their feelings...to quote t.c. 'i didn't like the man, > but i didn't wish him ill'. and (in another newsgroup) someone who > really hated speaker said so...that he wasn't sorry that he was dead. > > most folks who didn't like him are trying to show respect for those of > us who did. (i could be wrong and i don't want to claim to know how > other people feel....but that's my take on the situation.)" I know that it is true in some cases - and I hope it is true in a lot. For better or worse nothing we say now will help or harm Carl - but it could hurt people who are still with us and grieving. There is no real need to add to their grief. Jaelle cc: Kitten jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!claudia ~From: claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 23:05:28 GMT Organization: NowHere ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5057no$7pb@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunster-lab1.student.harvard.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158769 comp.os.vms:154455 Doug Quarnstrom (daq@fc.hp.com) wrote: : In other words, is noone willing to be a bit of a bastard in : memory of Carl? I think he would have wanted it that way. Claudia shrugs. "I called him an ass in front of however many people care to read the post. That's about as strong as I'll get about someone who's just died who has people listening who remember him fondly. Remembrance is for those who are still alive. Besides, I didn't alter my language to fit his when he was alive, why should I now when (as I believe) he can't even hear it?" "Perhaps he'd respect that, too." Claudia -- "I don't know why I can't think of anything I would rather do Than be wasting my time on mountains with you" -- Mountain Duet, Chess -O Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: Sue Lemcke ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 21:53:18 -0500 Organization: Dell Computer Corp. ~Lines: 8 Message-ID: <3227A91E.158F@ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> ~Reply-To: slemcke@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aus-tx5-05.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 30 9:55:28 PM CDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158980 Berek wrote: > Welcome to the Place, Berek! May I buy you your first drink? Glad you're here, and hope you stick around a while. Sue ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms Path: news2.digex.net!news5.digex.net!haven.umd.edu!news.ums.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!marlin.jcu.edu.au!imla ~From: imla@jcu.edu.au (Lynn Alford) ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) Message-ID: ~Sender: news@marlin.jcu.edu.au (USENET News System) Organization: James Cook University ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <5057no$7pb@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~Date: 30 Aug 96 22:55:10 GMT ~Lines: 18 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158866 comp.os.vms:154541 "Once upon a time, a couple of years back, I had two pieces of email that I was specifically keeping from StM. The first one was where StM got something wrong. The second was blanket permission to post the first if I ever felt he was getting too arrogant in a.c." Nicarra grins. "Naturally, I ended up disappearing from the group without ever using the letters, but I thought this was an appropriate time to tell this story." "To StM." CRASH Nicarra -- lynn.alford@jcu.edu.au | "Any new way to infiltrate myself lalford@nyx.cs.du.edu | into your minds." Tim Curry Centre for Interactive Multimedia | http://www.jcu.edu.au/~imla/Lynn2.html Game Review pages based at http://www.jcu.edu.au/~imla/games2.html Path: news2.digex.net!news5.digex.net!haven.umd.edu!ames!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!scoop.eco.twg.com!usenet ~From: mike@vishnu.eco.twg.com (Mike Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 23:23:18 GMT Organization: The Wollongong Group ~Lines: 164 Message-ID: <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: vishnu.eco.twg.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158867 comp.os.vms:154544 There is a sudden *C*R*U*M*P*!! out in the parking lot, and the furniture and glassware jump slightly where they sit. The shards in the fireplace tinkle as they settle slightly, and the hottub sloshes wildly...though without spilling a drop (you expected no less, right?) Someone says, "What the heck was that!?!", into the sudden, and highly unusual, silence that follows, but there are no replies. Everyone seems to be waiting to see what will happen next before they react. After a slight delay, there come a series of measured *THUMPS*, slowly approaching the door to The Place. The building vibrates slightly with each one. It sounds like *footsteps*, but there's no way...nah, couldn't possibly... The door opens smoothly, revealing a set of extremely large legs topped by a belt buckle the size of a dinner plate, depicting the messy death of some unfortunate reptilian creature at the hands of an armored human. There's something odd about the legs, but it's too dim to be sure what it is...though they *seem* to _shift_ without moving, taking on varying appearances from moment to moment. One glance and they appear to be wrapped in fur...a blink later the covering looks more like denim...and the next time it's some sort of shiny alloy. Must just be the light...yeah, that's it...got to be... Mike the bartender looks around the room, then back to the door, still calmly polishing a glass, not looking worried or flustered in the least. Back at the door, something is happening...whatever is out there seems to be bending and crouching a bit in an attempt to see inside... A face appears. Well, sort of. Like the legs, it's hard to see exactly what it looks like. It shifts subtly from moment to moment, now looking like a bearded face in a horned helmet, then a much more modern face with a neatly trimmed beard, then a glittering crystal transparency-englobed head. The only thing that seems to remain present at all times is the beard, though it changes length and style every few seconds. After scanning the bar, and with a muffled, "this seems to be the place...", the creature ducks its head, turns slightly sideways to get its shoulders through, and squeezes inside. It stands up, stretching a sudden kink out of its back, and looks around the room again, stopping briefly at each person and giving a slight nod of acknowledgement. The shifting aspect of its appearance seems less obvious in the brighter light of the bar than it did in the shaddows of the doorway, but its still hard to nail down exactly what one is seeing. The only sure thing is that it is large, and not immediately threatening...whatever it is. The creature finishes its scan of the premises and patrons, then says in a loud friendly voice, "Hello! I'm Berek Halfaxe, and I'm pleased to meet each and every one of you! Been looking for this place for some time now, though I didn't know it until today, and I'm glad I managed to track it down, though I wish the circumstances were more cheerful." The creature shifts position a little, looking uncomfortable. There's a slight strobe effect, almost below the level of awareness, as its aspect changes back and forth between the metalic, crystal-helmetted form and each of the others, in a repeating sequence. "I was over on comp.os.vms, and I got word of Carl's recent death. I understand the differences of opinion about Carl, and I can't argue with any of them, but in the couple of interactions I had with Carl I found him to be very helpful and a provider of first rate information about VMS." "He was completely intolerant of people who engaged their mouths before letting their brains get up to operating temps, but if you asked an intelligent question, providing all relevent details with your request, he was always there with a solid answer. Even when I questioned his reply once, he responded with a polite and useful answer, since in my question I had explained why I was having trouble reconciling his answer with what I was seeing on my system. He provided additional information that resolved the confusion, and I thanked him for the trouble and the help. He was most gracious in victory." "I was never the recipient of one of his flameblasts, which may be why I considered him more of a net.character and valuable resource than anything harmful or destructive, but I witnessed several of them on hapless individuals who posted ill-formed and half-documented questions. Carl considered such people to be a waste of time, and said so without hesitation. The resulting conflagration ate up considerable bandwidth, but Carl's part was usually relatively minor as others went back and forth on the merits of Carl, his style, and the results thereof." "Funny thing though, even his detractors granted the utility of his information without a struggle. Everyone agreed that Carl usually knew what he was talking about and were willing to chance his flamethrower when they needed an answer. They only disagreed about his communication style and lack of ability to "suffer fools gladly". Everyone will miss him in one way or another." "Carl's last good deed in my case was sort of indirect. His death resulted in the posting of an announcement of the places Carl hung out...one of which is Callahan's. I figured that a place like this HAD to be having a wake for old Carl, so I got a lead on the place and 'ported on over. Sorry if I startled anyone...my estimates were off a little and I came in higher than I expected. Not my best landing at all, and," Berek looks at Mike, "I'll be happy to pay for getting the holes in the parking lot repaired." Mike smiles and nods. "Anyway, I'm sorry Carl isn't going to be around here anymore, and we'll miss his expertise on comp.os.vms, but I'm glad he helped me find The Place anyway. It looks like just the sort of crowd I like and haven't been able to find for a long time." Berek pauses for a moment, as if looking back over a big span of years, then says, "I've heard about some of your customs here, and now that I've introduced myself, and said most of what I came to say about Carl to some folks who obviously were affected by him as well, for better or worse, I think..." He steps over to the bar, the floor giving slightly under his larger than average mass, and produces a few gold coins of primitive appearance. They clink quietly as he sets them on the bar. "Mike? A double Tullemore Dew please?" Mike sets up the whiskey, and Berek takes it and moves as carefully as possible to the firing line, weaving between patrons and minding his elbows so as not to brain anyone along the way. He stops, the toes of his...fur boots?...sneakers?...vacuum armor??...positioned exactly at the designated spot. He raises his glass high, stopping just clear of the feet of the rafter-sitters. "Carl, I doubt you had any more idea of *all* of the side effects your words had on others than any of the rest of us do, but I thank you for the help you gave, forgive you the trouble you caused, and hope that you are happy wherever you are. I hope everyone who encountered you will consider your efforts and learn *something* from your time on this planet. I know I have and it's not something I'd be likely to learn from anyone less controversial than you were. THANK YOU FOR BEING CARL LYDICK! NOBODY ELSE WANTED THE JOB, AND, BOY, WERE YOU GOOD AT IT!!" The tumbler is upended, the whiskey responds to the demands of gravity and disapears forever. Berek considers the tumbler for a moment, then hauls back and lets fly at the fireplace. There's a slight *craack* as it goes trans-sonic at the release, and leaves a slight contrail in the air, but for some unexplainable reason it slows suddenly to a safe velocity just before impacting the bricks at the rear of the fireplace and joining the rest of the shards in the pile on the ashes below. Berek nods around the room to thank everyone for listening, and moves to an open spot near the end of the bar. As he passes the LoR the shifting aspect of his appearance is gone and he is suddenly dressed in jeans, a T-shirt (which keeps changing its appearance even in that revealing light...) and sneakers, but, amazingly, his size doesn't change much! He's still head and shoulders above most everyone else, at least six and a half feet tall, and though not fat, the floor still creaks a bit when he moves over it. The beard is still there too. He passes out of the light and the jeans immediately look more like leather armor, the T-shirt grows a pelt and the sneakers develop steel spikes and spurs. The next instant it's all different again. Or is that the same? If something's appearance is to change all the time, and it changes, is it different or the same? The stool creaks alarmingly as he sits and asks Mike for another round and produces a handful of German Marks. "Use the extra money for the next few toasters...and, thanks for letting me sound off." Slowly the room noise level returns to its previous level as everyone goes back to business as usual. Berek sips his drink and watches the whole thing, watcher now, rather than watched. Everything in its turn... -- Berek "'nuff said...for now..." Halfaxe -- Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 15:34:04 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 21 Message-ID: <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158967 On 30 Aug 1996 23:23:18 GMT in alt.callahans, Mike Bartman said: :[...] : Slowly the room noise level returns to its previous level as everyone goes : back to business as usual. Berek sips his drink and watches the whole : thing, watcher now, rather than watched. Everything in its turn... "Hello, Berek Halfaxe. Welcome to the Place. There's another Berek over there somewhere, too, though, already--you'll have to sort out a way to tell yourselves apart." "It's nice to see some of the comp.os.vms crowd wandering over here, seeing as how we just lost our own resident VAX/VMS god..." Leslie. Who asked some really ignorant VMS questions, herself... --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news1.erols.com!news ~From: noellynn@erols.com (Noel Lynne Figart) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 11:40:42 GMT Organization: Pendragon Dream Factory ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5098lb$ncb@test-sun.erols.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> ~Reply-To: noellynn@erols.com NNTP-Posting-Host: frd-as1s37.erols.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158899 comp.os.vms:154565 mike@vishnu.eco.twg.com (Mike Bartman) piped up: >THANK YOU FOR BEING CARL LYDICK! NOBODY ELSE >WANTED THE JOB, AND, BOY, WERE YOU GOOD AT IT!!" Noel begins to laugh. Alamus, the microphant, thumps his trunk against the ground and writes with his foot in the sawdust, IT ONLEE TRU IF IT MAKES U LAFF >Slowly the room noise level returns to its previous level as everyone goes >back to business as usual. Berek sips his drink and watches the whole >thing, watcher now, rather than watched. Everything in its turn... You are quite welcome here, sir!" ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.new-york.net!news.put.com!main.put.com!silence ~From: Rose Platt ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To: mike@vishnu.eco.twg.com ~Sender: usenet@news.put.com (The Root) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: main.put.com ~Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 15:48:07 GMT ~Lines: 21 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159062 Silence grins at the newcomer. "I'm sorry your visit was occasioned by such sad happenings," she says, "but perhaps I can cheer you up by following another aspect of Callahan's: Buying a newcomer's first (or, in this case, third) drink. Feel free to rain-check the offer for later, or accept it now, or never accept; that's up to you. In any case, be welcome." She glances towards the bar. "Mike, you already have my whole purse, I think," she says, "but please set aside a coin or two for Berek here. I imagine a throat that large needs a lot of drinks to keep it from getting dry, especially after a speech like that! "Berek, if you need or want more information about a.c, feel free to ask; you might also want to watch for a post from a lady named Leslie, Keeper of the FAQ, who has FAQ-getting information in her .sig. You'll find, I think, that most people are equally happy to give some information about themselves--or you can just sit and watch and see who we are and what we do. I hope your stay is longer than you are tall, and equally merry!" "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." --Mark Twain Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: Sue Lemcke ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 23:05:05 -0500 Organization: Dell Computer Corp. ~Lines: 13 Message-ID: <32290B71.7EAE@ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> ~Reply-To: slemcke@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aus-tx3-02.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 31 9:07:18 PM PDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159056 Michael D. Bartman wrote: > > leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: > "Don't be too hard on yourself. The only really dumb questions I've > heard all had to do with why it isn't more like Unix...and I'm sure > you never got that bad." Yeah, but why isn't Unix more like VMS???? Sue Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 01:43:30 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50api5$g9p@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <3227A91E.158F@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158991 Sue Lemcke wrote: >Berek wrote: >> > >> >Welcome to the Place, Berek! May I buy you your first drink? Berek's shifting appearance begins to concentrate more toward the denim and sneakers side as he turns to the friendly person who's just offered liquid sustenence and says, "Thank you very much! I'm sorry that you can't buy my first drink...I did that for the toast to Carl...but you can certainly buy my *next* drink! Much appreciated!" >Glad you're here, and hope you stick around a while. "Thanks, I'm glad to be here too. I never know how long I can stay in one place though...change is my life, as you may have noticed...but I'll stay as long as I can and come back as soon as I can thereafter. I've been watching the crowd since I sat down here and they look like nice folks for the most part. There's one or two that might benefit from a little 'lesson', but I'm not going to butt in on my first night...at least no more than I already have." His face suddenly brightens and he says, "Hey! Would you like to be the first person *I* specifically buy a drink for? I kicked a few into the kitty for toasters, but I haven't bought a drink for anyone in particular yet..." --Berek "at least one 'first' a day keeps the boredom away" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 01:55:41 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50aq92$gno@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <5098lb$ncb@test-sun.erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158943 comp.os.vms:154582 noellynn@erols.com (Noel Lynne Figart) wrote: >mike@vishnu.eco.twg.com (Mike Bartman) piped up: >>THANK YOU FOR BEING CARL LYDICK! NOBODY ELSE >>WANTED THE JOB, AND, BOY, WERE YOU GOOD AT IT!!" >Noel begins to laugh. Alamus, the microphant, thumps his trunk >against the ground and writes with his foot in the sawdust, IT ONLEE >TRU IF IT MAKES U LAFF The thumping of the trunk catches Berek's attention and he looks with interest at the words in the sawdust. He ponders them for a few seconds, then smiles...wider and wider, then lets loose with a huge guffaw! "Thank you Alamus, I'll remember that! I like making people laugh, and I like truth...maybe you've found the connection?" He suddenly shifts expression to a mock seriousness and continues, "Of course, I'm not sure what this means when it comes to the speeches of our politicians..." >>Slowly the room noise level returns to its previous level as everyone goes >>back to business as usual. Berek sips his drink and watches the whole >>thing, watcher now, rather than watched. Everything in its turn... >You are quite welcome here, sir!" "Thank you! Glad to be here! I'll try not to step on any toes, litterally or figuratively, while I learn the ropes, but please feel free to give me a course change if I start to drift into forbidden territory, manners-wise." He lifts his glass in salute, and smiles. --Berek "more warmth than is explained by the booze" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 02:47:54 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 58 Message-ID: <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158997 leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: >On 30 Aug 1996 23:23:18 GMT in alt.callahans, >Mike Bartman said: >:[...] >: Slowly the room noise level returns to its previous level as everyone goes >: back to business as usual. Berek sips his drink and watches the whole >: thing, watcher now, rather than watched. Everything in its turn... >"Hello, Berek Halfaxe. Welcome to the Place. "Thank you. I'm glad I found it...it's a really nice place to be from everything I've seen so far...though it looks like there might be a couple of nettles in the garden...ah, well, plenty of time for that later if necessary." >"There's another Berek >over there somewhere, too, though, already--you'll have to sort out >a way to tell yourselves apart." Berek lifts his head and glances where Leslie indicates. "Thanks, yeah, I noticed a little while ago. No relation, I'm sure. I've run into a few 'Bereks' here and there before, but for some reason there hasn't been much confusion over who's who." Berek's shifting appearance speeds up slightly and becomes wilder, flashes of purple lace, knitted seaweed and clouds of glittering bronze dust joining the more usual, for him, pattern of barbarian splendor, American casual and deep space finery. He grins, and continues, "But if there is, we can work something out. It wouldn't be the first time I've used a different name to make life easier on others. What's in a name anyway? A rose by any other name would still prick your finger." >"It's nice to see some of the comp.os.vms crowd wandering over here, >seeing as how we just lost our own resident VAX/VMS god..." "Yeah. I don't expect many to stay for long though...no terminals here!" He smiles at his own joke. "I'm no VMS god, but I've been herding and training the things for several generations now so if you have any questions, I'll take a shot at answering. No replacement for Carl, but what would be?" >Leslie. Who asked some really ignorant VMS questions, herself... "Don't be too hard on yourself. The only really dumb questions I've heard all had to do with why it isn't more like Unix...and I'm sure you never got that bad." Berek takes another sip, but keeps an eyebrow raised to let him see if he's just put his foot in it or not... > Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! > *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Oh, and I owe you a drink at your earliest convenience for the fine brochures for The Place! They were immensely helpful in finding it and (apparently) not making a complete ass of myself immediately. Good work! --Berek "wise enough to scout before entering" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!mcsun!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!user ~From: peter@table76.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 03:01:35 +0100 Organization: Improving? ~Lines: 13 Distribution: world Message-ID: ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: table76.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: table76.demon.co.uk ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158992 In article <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) wrote: >most folks who didn't like him are trying to show respect for those of >us who did. (i could be wrong and i don't want to claim to know how >other people feel....but that's my take on the situation.)" "Maybe there were more people who liked/respected him than we realised? And than he realised? That'd be sad though, not finding out in time. I didn't get involved in many of the threads that had the most shouting, which might influence my view of him, of course." Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!tezcat!imci5!imci4!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: harkerii@ix.netcom.com (John Edwards) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 05:25:08 GMT Organization: Netcom ~Lines: 29 Message-ID: <32291de6.165881286@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> <32290B71.7EAE@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: den-co32-39.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 01 12:31:02 AM CDT 1996 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159050 The Ever-So-Wise Sue Lemcke wrote: ->Michael D. Bartman wrote: ->> ->> leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: -> ->> "Don't be too hard on yourself. The only really dumb questions I've ->> heard all had to do with why it isn't more like Unix...and I'm sure ->> you never got that bad." -> ->Yeah, but why isn't Unix more like VMS???? -> ->Sue -> -> 88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888 to you Sue, although I'm not entirely sure why, it just seems appropriate. So, VAX and UNIX isn't much alike huh??? John [Who's still strugling with CL] Fritz get up for god's sake. Get up! They've killed Fritz. They've killed Fritz. Those lousy stinking yellow fairies, they've killed Fritz! Those horrible atrocity-filled vermin. Those despicable animal warmongers. They've Killed Fritz Max - Wizards Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 16:15:23 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50ccl6$9ei@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> <32290B71.7EAE@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159086 Sue Lemcke wrote: >Michael D. Bartman wrote: >> leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: > >> "Don't be too hard on yourself. The only really dumb questions I've >> heard all had to do with why it isn't more like Unix...and I'm sure >> you never got that bad." >Yeah, but why isn't Unix more like VMS???? "The real answer? VMS was engineered, Unix 'jess growed'. Given the differences in origin it isn't too surprising that Unix ended up a tangled mess in which you can find nearly any shape you might want...if you look long and hard enough." Berek smiles at this, "While VMS is much easier to comprehend and work with quickly, but is still capable of getting the job done in a reliable way. I see the two, in botany terms, as a bonsai tree vs. a tangle of brambles. Which is preferable depends on whether you are a gardener or a rabbit." "The more philosophical answer?" Berek begins to produce, with full orchestration, the theme song from _Exodus_, while simultaneously singing: 'There are some things, man was not meant to know, and songs not meant to sing...and this is one of them!'" Then drains the last of his drink and signals Mike for another with a crisp new dollar bill placed precisely on the bar. > "For that bit of bash-ing pun-ishment I'm prepared to shell out for a drink!" --Berek "just the VAX ma'am, nothing but the VAX" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!course2.harvard.edu!rkadel ~From: rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 17:46:11 GMT Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50ci53$v4p@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bb95d3$4ddd2fc0$2e8b9dcc@cbarnhart.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: course2.harvard.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159020 comp.os.vms:154605 In article <01bb95d3$4ddd2fc0$2e8b9dcc@cbarnhart.radix.net>, Chris Barnhart wrote: > >I quite agree. It may be interpreted as respect for the dead, but it >has more to do with respect for the living. The people who are in >mourning for StM (now St. M? :>) are people I care about and if I >had hard feelings on the subject, I would most likely keep them to >myself just out of respect for them... Hey now, I liked Carl, one of my favorite newsgroups is far poorer without him, but he warn't no saint. Jes' because he's dead, don't you go sterilizin' him. (Hmm, looks like I'm gonna have a bit of a Western accent on callahans. Nifty.) Rachel "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." - Marco Simons on net censorship Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news1.radix.net!news ~From: cbarnhart@radix.net (Chris Barnhart - (TechnoPup)) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 23:42:23 GMT Organization: Not in my house! ~Lines: 21 Message-ID: <50d6t4$8da@news1.radix.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <01bb95d3$4ddd2fc0$2e8b9dcc@cbarnhart.radix.net> <50ci53$v4p@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~Reply-To: cbarnhart@radix.net NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin10.annex5.radix.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159057 comp.os.vms:154620 rkadel@course2.harvard.edu (Rachel Meredith Kadel) wrote: >Hey now, I liked Carl, one of my favorite newsgroups is far poorer without >him, but he warn't no saint. >Jes' because he's dead, don't you go sterilizin' him. Don't worry. It's all come out anyhow... >"That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you >have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." > - Marco Simons on net censorship __________________________________________________________________ Chris Barnhart - TechnoPup | "Verbosity leads to unclear, cbarnhart@radix.net | inarticulate things." http://www.radix.net/~cbarnhart | -Dan Quayle ________________________________|_________________________________ Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news.his.com!news ~From: teacher@iwc.net (Richard Jensen) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick) ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 02:30:55 GMT Organization: Chaos is more fun! ~Lines: 43 Message-ID: <50dgsv$361@news2.his.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlh1.interwebco.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159069 comp.os.vms:154626 In article <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, kittent@staff.uiuc.edu says... > > >>Bob Clevenger (bob@linkline.com) wrote: >>: The world will little note nor will it be greatly diminished by the >>: death of Carl. Those of us who knew him, even briefly, are another >>: matter completely. > >doug: >>Of course. It is difficult for the common man to impress the >>world with positive achievement. This does not make him >>irrelevant. But I do still think Carl might have respected >>someone who did not soft-pedal their distaste for him just >>because he has died. I feel the same way, and I was just >>trying to make that point as, well, tactfully as I might. > >>In other words, is noone willing to be a bit of a bastard in >>memory of Carl? I think he would have wanted it that way. > >kitten sort of agrees...."i think that there are people who are being >honest about their feelings...to quote t.c. 'i didn't like the man, >but i didn't wish him ill'. and (in another newsgroup) someone who >really hated speaker said so...that he wasn't sorry that he was dead. > >most folks who didn't like him are trying to show respect for those of >us who did. (i could be wrong and i don't want to claim to know how >other people feel....but that's my take on the situation.)" Welby returns after finally getting his 'puter back in operation (damn virus-like copy protection) only to note the passing of StM. He comments "While I didn't like the man, I did have a great deal of respect for his learnedness. I honestly believe that the net is lessened because of the loss. Speaker, wherever you are I salute what you have been!! ***K***R***A***S***H***!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Welby retires to his favorite chair. -Welby Dr Welby AKA Richard Jensen teacher@iwc.net http://www.iwc.net/~teacher/index.html Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!new-news.cc.brandeis.edu!ST951787@pip.cc.brandeis.edu ~From: st951787@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (BEREK) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: return/TOAST: Speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 06:22:22 GMT Organization: Brandeis University ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <503cuu$io3@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> ~Reply-To: st951787@pip.cc.brandeis.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: pip.cc.brandeis.edu The hum of a transporter beam and a faint blue shimmer announce Berek's return to the Place. He sets down his luggage, and looks around. There is a strange quiet and the faces seem to be quite ashen. It is then he realizes that a certain Kzin firebrand is noticeably absent. "I'm very sorry to hear about Carl. He and I had a few battles, but I must say that I didn't exactly do much to keep tempers in check. I don't know much about who he really was, but it sounds to me like Carl Lydick knew what he wanted to do with what little time he had left. In that, I cannot find fault. Good luck, Speaker-to-Minerals, wherever you may be!" With that, Berek sits down at his old table, blows the dust off the table, and orders an A&W Diet Cream Soda. "To StM!" The glass disappears from Berek's hand and rematerializes in the fireplace. No Matter Where You Go, There You Are--Buckaroo Banzai st951787@pip.cc.brandeis.edu WavBst@aol.com Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: return/TOAST: Speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 12:50:31 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5079l7$i8p@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <503cuu$io3@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158937 On 29 Aug 1996 06:22:22 GMT in alt.callahans, BEREK said: : : With that, Berek sits down at his old table, blows the dust off the : table, and orders an A&W Diet Cream Soda. "Hiya Berek. Back at school? Is this good news or bad news?" : "To StM!" : : The glass disappears from Berek's hand and rematerializes in the fireplace. "To StM," Leslie says, softly. She places a glass in the fireplace, then orders a Bacardi and diet Coke[tm] which she sets down in front of an empty chair at the bar beside her (next to a Jameson's in front of another empty chair...). "Once a Patron, always a Patron," she says, simply. Leslie. Who'd really like to hear the Prof's voice, about now... Path: news2.digex.net!news1.digex.net!ctd.comsat.com!coral.bucknell.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!news.lvld.hp.com!news ~From: Randy Martens ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: A new Entry in the Allabout regarding Speaker ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:58:37 -0700 Organization: The Vectra at the End of the Universe ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3226128D.3BD6@lvld.hp.com> ~References: <5041fi$1d@crushed.ice.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hplvlrm1.lvld.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) shadowcat wrote: > > The Cat of Knights and Shadows wanders in with a scroll in hand > and calls up RFC. > > "Rambling Rover" by Andy M Stewart begins playing in the backround. > > there is a new entry in the Dedications section of the Allabout > the quote is from Randy Martens > > Speaker to Minerals - Resident Curmudgeon, Bringer of Wisdom, You will be > missed. Why thank you! Please allow me to buy your next potable! -- | "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no | | basis for a system of government" ----------- M. Palin | Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ice.net!usenet ~From: kwalsh@ice.net (shadowcat) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: A new Entry in the Allabout regarding Speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 12:12:34 GMT Organization: Clan Shadowcat ~Lines: 12 Message-ID: <5041fi$1d@crushed.ice.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip35.ice.net X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (beta 2) The Cat of Knights and Shadows wanders in with a scroll in hand and calls up RFC. "Rambling Rover" by Andy M Stewart begins playing in the backround. there is a new entry in the Dedications section of the Allabout the quote is from Randy Martens Speaker to Minerals - Resident Curmudgeon, Bringer of Wisdom, You will be missed. Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!max.tiac.net!cmarie ~From: cmarie@max.tiac.net (Claudia Marie ) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: A new Entry in the Allabout regarding Speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 96 23:40:35 GMT Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. ~Lines: 23 Message-ID: ~References: <5041fi$1d@crushed.ice.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: max.tiac.net kwalsh@ice.net (shadowcat) writes: >The Cat of Knights and Shadows wanders in with a scroll in hand >and calls up RFC. >"Rambling Rover" by Andy M Stewart begins playing in the backround. >there is a new entry in the Dedications section of the Allabout >the quote is from Randy Martens >Speaker to Minerals - Resident Curmudgeon, Bringer of Wisdom, You will be >missed. Claudia's face takes on a wry expression. "There's a difference between wisdom and factual knowledge. My understanding was that it was the latter Speaker strove for." Claudia -- "It seems that 'national security' is the root password to the Constitution. As with any dishonest superuser, the best countermeasure is strong encryption." -Phil Karn Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!news.lvld.hp.com!news ~From: Randy Martens ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: A new Entry in the Allabout regarding Speaker ~Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:47:03 -0700 Organization: The Vectra at the End of the Universe ~Lines: 24 Message-ID: <32272917.7498@lvld.hp.com> ~References: <5041fi$1d@crushed.ice.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hplvlrm1.lvld.hp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Claudia Marie wrote: > > kwalsh@ice.net (shadowcat) writes: > >The Cat of Knights and Shadows wanders in with a scroll in hand > >and calls up RFC. > > >"Rambling Rover" by Andy M Stewart begins playing in the backround. > > >there is a new entry in the Dedications section of the Allabout > >the quote is from Randy Martens > > >Speaker to Minerals - Resident Curmudgeon, Bringer of Wisdom, You will be > >missed. > > Claudia's face takes on a wry expression. > > "There's a difference between wisdom and factual knowledge. My understanding > was that it was the latter Speaker strove for." Ahh, but knowing how to distinguish between bullsh*t and fact - that's wisdom. Facts never speak for themselves. Someone has to articulate them. -- | "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no | | basis for a system of government" ----------- M. Palin | Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!not-for-mail ~From: deirdre@zot.io.org (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: A new Entry in the Allabout regarding Speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 16:33:45 -0400 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <507j79$hob@zot.io.org> ~References: <5041fi$1d@crushed.ice.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: zot.io.org X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: New to Usenet? Subscribe to news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 29 Aug 96 23:40:35 GMT in alt.callahans, Claudia Marie said: : kwalsh@ice.net (shadowcat) writes: : >Speaker to Minerals - Resident Curmudgeon, Bringer of Wisdom, You will be : >missed. : : Claudia's face takes on a wry expression. : : "There's a difference between wisdom and factual knowledge. My understanding : was that it was the latter Speaker strove for." "I think I agree with Claudia. An awful lot of people disagreed with StM's idea of 'wisdom.' How about just 'Resident Curmudgeon, and an intellect to be reckoned with'--?" Leslie. -- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!atmnet.net!usenet ~From: bob@linkline.com (Bob Clevenger) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Carl, Speaker, and a mini ABEND ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:46:11 -0700 Organization: Not Bloody Likely! ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3226346e.85601140@news.linkline.com> ~Reply-To: bob@linkline.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.67.165.124 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Well, I've given it some thought, and it occurred to me that although Carl is dead (there, I've said it), Speaker need not be. Speaker was Carl's creation, much as Mike and Fast Eddie and the bunch are Spider's creations. Speaker is not Carl. Think about it; Speaker is lurking as we post these messages. When you get into a heated debate, ask yourself "What would Speaker say to this?" I'll bet that will make you think out your arguments better -- and that's good for everybody. This will be my last post until after Worldcon. There will be an alt.callahan's gathering there; I'm sure that there will be toasts to Carl and a run on dark Bacardi at the bar. -=Bob=- in Ontario, Calif. NRA, CRPA, SCA, IOOF, N6MLV I'm a politician's worst nightmare --- A voter with a memory! Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.sojourn.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!news.texas.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Carl, Speaker, and a mini ABEND ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 23:23:01 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 32 Message-ID: <505qb5$hie@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <3226346e.85601140@news.linkline.com> <505en0$knl@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 30 Aug 1996 01:04:32 GMT in alt.callahans, Doug Quarnstrom said: : Bob Clevenger (bob@linkline.com) wrote: : : When you get into a heated debate, : : ask yourself "What would Speaker say to this?" I'll bet that will make : : you think out your arguments better -- and that's good for everybody. : : What a shit for brains idea. : : How's that? StM: The jackass doesn't even give a reason WHY it's a shit for brains idea. Moron. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Look, StM wouldn't have hit and run like that. He'd have given some argument WHY it was a shit for brains idea in support of his opinion. If you think your response was 'being like Speaker,' you clearly had no clue as to how he operated. "You just followed up to the advice 'think out your arguments better,' and yet you didn't even MAKE an argument, you made an unsupported assertation. If this is your usual style, I can understand why StM flamed you. It is not, however, StM's style. "You are also obviously unware that StM most generally didn't flame first, but attempted a civil approach to begin with, unless the person had committed some egregiously moronic mistake, such as you just did." Leslie. How's *that*. [I never could get the hang of StM's brevity.] Path: news2.digex.net!news6.digex.net!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!news.sojourn.com!news.eecs.umich.edu!news.lsa.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news2.acs.oakland.edu!nntp.coast.net!oleane!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!bt!btnet-feed1!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!news.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!daq ~From: daq@fc.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Carl, Speaker, and a mini ABEND ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 01:04:32 GMT Organization: PROTEUS ~Lines: 14 Message-ID: <505en0$knl@fcnews.fc.hp.com> ~References: <3226346e.85601140@news.linkline.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpesdaq.fc.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1.4] Bob Clevenger (bob@linkline.com) wrote: : Well, I've given it some thought, and it occurred to me that although : Carl is dead (there, I've said it), Speaker need not be. Speaker was : Carl's creation, much as Mike and Fast Eddie and the bunch are : Spider's creations. Speaker is not Carl. Think about it; Speaker is : lurking as we post these messages. When you get into a heated debate, : ask yourself "What would Speaker say to this?" I'll bet that will make : you think out your arguments better -- and that's good for everybody. What a shit for brains idea. How's that? doug Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!panix!news.columbia.edu!news.cs.columbia.edu!bach.cs.columbia.edu!not-for-mail ~From: jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu (Jim M. Pierce) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Carl, Speaker, and a mini ABEND ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 13:54:34 -0500 Organization: University of Southern Mississippi, Gulf Park ~Lines: 10 Message-ID: <50cm5a$t80@medea.gp.usm.edu> ~References: <3226346e.85601140@news.linkline.com> <505en0$knl@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <505qb5$hie@xanadu.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: medea.gp.usm.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159101 >Leslie. How's *that*. [I never could get the hang of StM's brevity.] Uhm Leslie, doug knows how Speaker would have answered... DJ. -- Jim Pierce jmpierce@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard. Video: Tom Waits 'Downtown train' Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: The End of an Era (was Re: r.i.p. speaker) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 16:05:05 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 89 Message-ID: <5050m1$bk2@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <502aft$lke@pentagon.io.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. [found in misc.health.diabetes] ~From: "Jonathan W. Mills" ~Newsgroups: misc.health.diabetes ~Subject: Goodbye, Speaker ~Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 06:17:19 -0500 (EST) Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University ~Lines: 75 The End of an Era: In Memoriam to Speaker-To-Minerals ----------------------------------------------------- In 1993 I was diagnosed with diabetes. I was going up for tenure, I was in agonizing pain because of neuropathy in my feet, I was depressed and on Prozac and it was telling me that I was brilliant. It was lying, but what the hell, I liked to hear it talking. The net was just beginning to crack open to the general public, America On-Line was foisting it's 10-hour net babies on us, who traipsed through the newsgroups, the web was being spun, and you never saw URLs on cosmetic ads in television. Enter misc.health.diabetes and find an era that has left us. Joan Stout, melynda reid, Ed Reid, Kelly Miller (still posting, yea!), and Carl Lydick, whose true name I didn't find out for years until he told us about the "whois" command...which worked, unlike the snake oil he despised. I still think of him as Speaker-To-Minerals, his net name that indicated a post that in those days usually offered an "on the other hand" opinion. For example, when I claimed that the bruises and swellings I got during the first few months of use of a Medijector were due to an allergic reaction to the preservatives in insulin, Carl suggested that it was my technique that could be at fault ("maybe you aren't always holding it vertically" ...a good point when one injects into one's own buttocks). In that era Carl was a source of alternatives, informed explanations about points that others of us mentioned but otherwise skipped over, and, yes, the sheriff of m.h.d. In those days Speaker would drub the occasional snake oil salesperson with an increasingly incendiary arsenal of posts. First came the "here is why this is false, you fool" reply, then the "can't you understand simple english, you moron", and then, finally, the full eruption of fire and flame, and in those days, an occasional dose of vulgarity. But in what seems an amazingly long time, but has been so short by the calendar -- three years! -- the Internet opened up to the public at large, and changed from the gentler, ditzier place I first found at m.h.d, with its caravan of diabetics who visited each other in real life, and melynda's droll and funny and beautiful verse -- I remember especially her "Mayfly Afternoon" and her description of a Sphinx moth headdress she wore for the performance -- into a series of brawls, flames, spams, and snake oil lakes. There are a few people out there who may claim that it's partly Carl's fault. In his memory, I'll have to say that you morons know who you are. Carl did his best to fry your little tippy-fingers with his posts, which led to a lot of heat. But before we were bombarded with NutraSweet conspiracy posts, with claims, counterclaims, obvious and paltry attempts at retractions of carelessly written or unsupported diabetes information...before all that, m.h.d. was a helpful community, and we were rather proud of our cop. Occasionally Steve "Mr. Mayor" Kirchhoeffer had to rein Speaker in with that asbestos glove, but it wasn't a daily occurence. And Speaker filled a niche, and many of us miss him, and now mourn him, if indeed the post is true. In the past two years I have seen a marked change in m.h.d. The flame wars chased away a lot of the old crowd, sort of like a fire in the hills around LA chasing away a colony of artists. And when I first found m.h.d., it -felt- like that! And, as some of you may not believe, Speaker was an integral part of that community, and it DIDN'T have brawls and shootings constantly. Now m.h.d. has settled down, but it lacks that friendly goofiness that characterized it, even as I learned, with chuckles, how to manage my diabetes, and met some people on the net that I have never met in person, but was glad to call my friends. Carl was a part of those days, and now that he's not here it feels, at least to me, that an era has ended. To me, it's as if these three years have seen the Civil War, or the dropping of the atom bomb -- a sea change in the society of m.h.d. With Carl gone it is now official, I guess. It's not Kansas anymore, Speaker, and it's not in color, either. I'll miss you. Jonathan Mills Associate Professor Computer Science Department Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana 47405 Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!realtime.net!news ~From: kath@haven.boston.ma.us (Valentine) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (and a RETURN) ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 20:37:34 GMT Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service ~Lines: 58 Message-ID: <841350465.14622@dejanews.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~Reply-To: kath@haven.boston.ma.us NNTP-Posting-Host: bastion.dejanews.com X-RTcode: fa0b46c9328ea28f7625fffd X-Originating-IP-Addr: 155.44.86.74 (dashonmac.hmco.com) The old oak door swings open (how many times, I wonder, has that been said?), this time to admit a young woman. She moves around the Place with the familiarity of someone who's been here before, and often, but with the shyness of one for whom it's been a long time since the last time. To some, there is something familiar about her -- perhaps if that were an oversized purple sweater she were wearing, not a white shirt and a vest, and black leggings instead of jeans? And if you put a black fedora on her head, then maybe -- "Valentine!" says Mike. "Been a while." And sure enough, it's Valentine. She looks a little older, a little more tired, than when she was last here, but it's still the same green eyes looking out from behind gold-framed glasses. She smiles and shakes hands with the big bartender. She looks around the bar -- many new faces, some old friends, and some friends from #callahans. "It has," she says. She is interrupted by a blur of emerald green and an excited <>, as a green firelizard streaks out of nowhere and lands on her shoulder. Valentine grins. "For now, at least, Credo," she says. "So what brings you back?" asks Mike, sliding her a Woodchuck cider before she can even finish getting out her wallet. "Oh, lots of things," she begins, but adds more quietly, "but mostly, I heard the news." She looks over toward the growing pile of glass in the fireplace, in time to hear Claudia say: > "To a loyal friend, a stubborn arguer, an ass, a scientist; someone > people blamed when they left alt.callahans, someone people laughed > to see 'still here' when they came back. I never liked his tactics, > but I came to respect his goals. To Carl Lydick, Speaker to Minerals." She drains the cider as quickly as she can, and sends her glass to join the others with a resounding *smash*. "Claudia, m'friend, you've summed up my feelings better than I could have. I hated the way Carl would abuse people (myself included, though I generally came to ignore the threads he was involved in); he made me so angry I couldn't see straight, sometimes. But I also saw some of the really, really funny things he contributed, and I know he was loyal to those he called friends. Whether any of us liked him personally or not, his loss changes this place. He will be missed." "As for me, personal updates can wait -- a lot's happened since I was last in here. It's good to see you all again." ---- Valentine/Katherine Bryant/kath@haven.boston.ma.us "Well, darkness has a hunger that's insatiable And lightness has a call that's hard to hear..." -- Indigo Girls ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja News: http://www.dejanews.com/ [Search, Post, and Read Usenet News!] Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (and a RETURN) ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 14:31:55 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 20 Message-ID: <507fjb$iv5@xanadu.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <4vuvqn$doe@decaxp.harvard.edu> <841350465.14622@dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: xanadu.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. On 29 Aug 1996 20:37:34 GMT in alt.callahans, Valentine said: : : "As for me, personal updates can wait -- a lot's happened since I was last : in here. It's good to see you all again." "Nice to see you again too, Valentine. I suppose I wish it could have been under happier circumstances... "(BTW, I have a link to your 'ST: The Crouton Generation' page. It's truly hilarious, I wish I could have been here to see it happening.)" Leslie --- Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** Sometimes the light's all shining on me--other times I can barely see-- Grateful Dead * If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane. J. Buffett Path: news2.digex.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!scooby.beloit.edu!holmeskh ~From: holmeskh@beloit.edu (Kathryn Holmes) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: RE:Speaker ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 22:39:46 GMT Organization: Beloit College ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <50567i$8is@scooby.beloit.edu> ~Reply-To: holmeskh@beloit.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: beloit.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Thanks to Lady Cheron, I learned about Speaker's death this morning. No posts about him have shown up at this site but my father forwarded a batch of them to me. I never met Carl in person and did not correspond with him in email but was missing his presence in alt.callahans and will continue to do so. VR does have a reality of its own. I have never gone to a Realspace yet I trust in the 'Realness' of Kitten and the others who write that they had direct contact with Carl. I beleive the Carl's death is real just as I believed his living was real even though all I know about either has come from reading words on a screen. --Shadowdancer (joining the group of people who are each dealing with the news in their own way.) Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!kittent ~From: kittent@staff.uiuc.edu (barbara trumpinski) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: r.i.p. speaker ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 17:20:07 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5077s7$pcd@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu razon soldier, with the ever faithful ty, asked me to pitch a glass into the fireplace with a toast to honor speaker.... kitten drinks another bacardi and diet, and pitches the glass into the fireplace HARD! *crash!!!!* -- kittent@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski /\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=} 'how can you be in two places at once when you're ~ not anywhere at all?' Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.moneng.mei.com!news.ecn.bgu.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!aries!wells ~From: wells@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Cindy Wells) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: 31 Aug 1996 06:17:27 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana ~Lines: 8 Message-ID: <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: aries.scs.uiuc.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158879 comp.os.vms:154558 Welcome to Callahans, Berek. May I buy you a drink? Cindy places a dollar on the bar. Cindy Wells -- Cindy Wells (Grad - PChem - UIUC) I have abandoned my search for truth and now I'm looking for ... a good fantasy. (author: Ashleigh Brilliant) Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!mcsun!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 02:21:48 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 22 Message-ID: <50arpv$hg5@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158944 comp.os.vms:154583 wells@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Cindy Wells) wrote: >Welcome to Callahans, Berek. May I buy you a drink? >Cindy places a dollar on the bar. Berek tosses back the last of his Tullly, smiles and says, "I never turn down a drink! Thank you very much. Between Sue, Noel and now you, I may end up a might 'over served', so I think I'd better switch to K.B. Tooth and cut in the spare synth-liver!" >(Grad - PChem - UIUC) Berek notices the tag Cindy is wearing and says, "You know, I'm pretty good at a number of things, and my junkyard mind is just chock full of useful odds and ends, but Chemistry is one subject I never could get a handle on. I'm impressed." He considers for a moment, and then says, "You know any fun chemistry songs?" and the sly grin seems to suggest that if she doesn't, he *does*... --Berek "one's even got an Irish tune" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!metro!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!lily.newcastle.edu.au!c9210088 ~From: c9210088@lily.newcastle.edu.au (Claire Black) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) Followup-To: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 05:53:22 GMT Organization: The University of Newcastle ~Lines: 18 Message-ID: <50b8ci$rps@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50arpv$hg5@news.cais.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lily.newcastle.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:158959 comp.os.vms:154591 Michael D. Bartman (mike@cais.com) wrote: : Berek notices the tag Cindy is wearing and says, "You know, I'm pretty : good at a number of things, and my junkyard mind is just chock full of : useful odds and ends, but Chemistry is one subject I never could get a : handle on. I'm impressed." : He considers for a moment, and then says, "You know any fun chemistry : songs?" and the sly grin seems to suggest that if she doesn't, he : *does*... Claire_Bear (who did one course of University Chemistry before bailing out to the relative safety of Information Systems) says "Please, go ahead and sing them (for me at least :) -- Claire Black c9210088@cs.newcastle.edu.au GIT d-@ s: a- C++>$ ULS+>$ P L+(++) !E W+ N+ o? K--? w !O !M V-- PS? PE? Y? !PGP t+@ 5? X++ R tv b++++ DI-- D++ G e h-- r--@ x? Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news ~From: Sue Lemcke ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 14:46:36 -0500 Organization: Dell Computer Corp. ~Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3229E81C.4558@ix.netcom.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50arpv$hg5@news.cais.com> <50b8ci$rps@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <50cduc$a7a@news.cais.com> ~Reply-To: slemcke@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aus-tx3-11.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 01 2:48:50 PM CDT 1996 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159032 comp.os.vms:154614 Michael D. Bartman wrote: > > c9210088@lily.newcastle.edu.au (Claire Black) wrote: > "Paradimethylaminobenzaldehyde; > Go soak your head in a good strong insecticide. > Slosh it around and impregnate your brain > With dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane!" > Wysard, do you still have "that" limerick stashed away? I can't find my copy, and I think it would be an appropriate response to this song! Sue Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news.cais.com!news ~From: mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans,comp.os.vms ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 16:37:22 GMT Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet ~Lines: 59 Message-ID: <50cduc$a7a@news.cais.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50arpv$hg5@news.cais.com> <50b8ci$rps@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.69.129.161 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159010 comp.os.vms:154599 c9210088@lily.newcastle.edu.au (Claire Black) wrote: >Michael D. Bartman (mike@cais.com) wrote: >: Berek notices the tag Cindy is wearing and says, "You know, I'm pretty >: good at a number of things, and my junkyard mind is just chock full of >: useful odds and ends, but Chemistry is one subject I never could get a >: handle on. I'm impressed." >: He considers for a moment, and then says, "You know any fun chemistry >: songs?" and the sly grin seems to suggest that if she doesn't, he >: *does*... >Claire_Bear (who did one course of University Chemistry before bailing >out to the relative safety of Information Systems) says "Please, go >ahead and sing them (for me at least :) Berek shifts his stool slightly so as to include Claire in the small group of friendly greeters that seem to be gathering near the end of the bar, and says, "Well, since you ask so nicely, sure, one anyway. This one is called _The Chemist's Drinking Song_, and it was written by John A. Carroll after he was inspired by an Isaac Asimov article." The sound of a lively Irish jig begins to emanate from the air near him...and someone mutters that it's called "The Irish Washerwoman". Tapping his foot in time with the music, then doing so less forcefully as he notices everyone else's stools vibrating across the floor like baddly loaded washing machines, he sings: "Paradimethylaminobenzaldehyde, Sodium citrate, ammonium cyanide, Mix 'em together and add some benzene And top off the punch with trichloroethylene!" "Got gassed up last night on some furfuryl alcohol, Followed it up with a gallon of propanol, Tanked up on hydrazine 'til after noon, Then spat on the floor and blew up the saloon!" "Paradimethylaminobenzaldehyde, Powdered aluminum, nitrogen iodide, Chlorates, permanganates, nitrates galore; Just swallow one drink and you'll never need more!" "Whiskey, tequila, and rum are too tame. No, the stuff that I drink must explode into flame When I breath and disolve all the paint in the room And rattle the walls with a ground-shaking boom!" "Paradimethylaminobenzaldehyde; Go soak your head in a good strong insecticide. Slosh it around and impregnate your brain With dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane!" The music fades, Berek grins and waits to see how his performance was recieved. --Berek "I'll refrain from dancing until the floor is reinforced" Halfaxe-- Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!szdc!news ~From: jvinson@rmci.net (John W. Vinson) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 19:15:03 GMT Organization: Wysard of Information ~Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3229dcb5.4413113@news.rmci.net> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50202g$b8t@fountain.mindlink.net> <502fes$jru@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <322534db.20179545@news.linkline.com> <504h2u$acv@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <508ldn$14a@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <50arpv$hg5@news.cais.com> <50b8ci$rps@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <50cduc$a7a@news.cais.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141 ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159118 mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) wrote: > >Berek shifts his stool slightly so as to include Claire in the small >group of friendly greeters that seem to be gathering near the end of >the bar, and says, "Well, since you ask so nicely, sure, one anyway. >This one is called _The Chemist's Drinking Song_, and it was written >by John A. Carroll after he was inspired by an Isaac Asimov article." John the Wysard (another chemist) recovers from ROFLHAO and thanks Berek for the terrific performance of a hilarious song... "For not being a chemist, you sure have a handle on some pretty esoteric nomenclature! Care for a glass of, say, methylated theobromine solution?" Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!juand.earth.nwu.edu!jed ~From: jed@juand.earth.nwu.edu (John DeLaughter) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: Welcome (Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker (also Re: Carl Lydick)) ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 19:05:46 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL, US ~Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50fb6a$4c@news.acns.nwu.edu> ~References: <504kq4$rhu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bf <50f3h6$661@news.cais.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: juand.earth.nwu.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159131 mike@cais.com (Michael D. Bartman) writes: >jmiles@usit.net (Janet D. Miles) wrote: >>On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 16:37:22 GMT, in alt.callahans mike@cais.com >>(Michael D. Bartman) wrote: > >>[performance of "The Chemist's Drinking Song" snipped] > >>>The music fades, Berek grins and waits to see how his performance was >>>recieved. > >>With considerable joy and amusement, thank you very much! > >Berek bows and smiles his thanks. > >> Do you know >>Tom Lehrer's "Periodic Table"? I tried memorizing it, figuring it >>would have to be easier with music, but never quite succeeded. On the >>other hand, I didn't spend *all* that much time working on it. > >"I'm afraid my experience with it was similar. Same with _New Math_. >I *did* manage to store away _I Hold Your Hand In Mine_, _Werner von >Braun_, and a couple of others, including _The Vatican Rag_. I had a >slight glitch in my word association array with that last one though, >and unintentionally got a multi-language pun. A friend saw it and >just about laughed himself damp!" If you don't mind a butt-inski, may I suggest you go to: http://www.cybercomm.net/~drz/tom.lehrer/ This website has the lyrics to *all* of Tom Lehrer's songs, including the ones he sang on "Sesame Street". I'll butt back out, now. John DeLaughter Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!spok ~From: Joelyne Swidzinski ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: r.i.p. Speaker to Minerals ~Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 17:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Grapevine's Posting Service ~Lines: 55 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: f.gp.cs.cmu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: Normal Originator: spok@F.GP.CS.CMU.EDU ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159113 The door on the Place opens to let in two shadowy figures. One walks around with an old familiarity about her, while the second parks his scythe at the coat rack and follows, looking around at all the new sights. They make their way to the bar quietly. "Hi Mike, it's been a while, hasn't it?" Mike looks up, not looking as cheerful as usual. His eyes grow. "JL?" "Yah, it's me, but I prefer to just be Jo. It's who I am." She gives a small smile, "And this is my boyfriend." Giving the skeletal form a once-over, Mike says quietly and with a hint of a jocular tone, "I didn't expect to be seeing you again so soon." "IT'S MY DAY OFF." "Let's see, it's Coke for the lady, and...?" "A TALL MYRRH ON THE ROCKS, IF YOU HAVE IT." Two drinks appear all-but-instantaneously on the table, and the taller figure places a two-dollar coin on the bar. Jo sweeps up her glass of Coke, takes a fortifying swig, and heads for the line. "I hardly knew Speaker to Minerals. I read his posts. At times, I agreed and there were times that I didn't. I know that we're here trying to come to terms with his untimely passing." Jo pauses to take a breath, and to figure out how to say what she wants to say. "Yes, Speaker to Minerals/Carl J. Lydick is dead, but it is just his body that died. His spirit is with every one of us here. He is a part of people -- he made it so through his posts. "May we keep him alive with our memories!" Jo throws her glass into the fireplace with a satisfying ***PLOINK***. Her boyfriend's drink, untouched, hits the hearth, and the fire goes out. But only for a moment. . Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!io.com!not-for-mail ~From: leslie@io.com (Leslie) ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Hello, Berek Halfaxe (was: Re: plaque: r.i.p. speaker) ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 02:51:21 -0500 Organization: If I had any, I'd be dangerous. ~Lines: 51 Message-ID: <50e3lp$soj@pentagon.io.com> ~References: <4vtgrm$pn0@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <507t57$bfu@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50a7js$nhp@pentagon.io.com> <50atat$id3@news.cais.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pentagon.io.com X-Netiquette-Reminder: Save Bandwidth! Edit quoted material down to the minimum necessary for relevance. X-Official-Callahan's-Webpage: http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahans.html X-Advice: If you're new to Usenet, read news.announce.newusers! X-Motto: Ad astra per aspera! X-Disclaimer: Those quotes aren't in my .sig for nothing, you know. ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159129 On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 02:47:54 GMT in alt.callahans, Michael D. Bartman said: : leslie@io.com (Leslie) wrote: : : "Thank you. I'm glad I found it...it's a really nice place to be from : everything I've seen so far...though it looks like there might be a : couple of nettles in the garden...ah, well, plenty of time for that : later if necessary." "If you'll notice," Leslie says half wryly, half wistfully. "This Place isn't governed by an Author with a vested interest in making sure his characters all get along with each other. And since it's physically impossible for any one person here to like and get along with *everyone* else, all the time, conflicts are bound to crop up. But, yet, still, the Callahan's magic lives on." [...] : >Leslie. Who asked some really ignorant VMS questions, herself... : : "Don't be too hard on yourself. The only really dumb questions I've : heard all had to do with why it isn't more like Unix...and I'm sure : you never got that bad." Berek takes another sip, but keeps an : eyebrow raised to let him see if he's just put his foot in it or : not... "No, nothing like that, thank ghu. My first account was on a VAX cluster, and I'd never really even heard of UNIX. I managed to nuke my mail.mai file, and was almost too embarassed to ask StM for help. And when I groused about the help files, he said the help files were wonderful. Sha, right. If you're a VAX god to begin with, maybe..." : > Just the FAQs--If you need info about alt.callahans, I've got the FAQs! : > *** || ftp.io.org/pub/users/deirdre *** : : Oh, and I owe you a drink at your earliest convenience for the fine : brochures for The Place! They were immensely helpful in finding it : and (apparently) not making a complete ass of myself immediately. : Good work! "Thank you, and you're welcome. My drink is a margarita, straight up, plenty of salt. Make it a double, I think..." : --Berek "wise enough to scout before entering" Halfaxe-- "Very wise indeed," Leslie agrees. Leslie. Who was rereading some of her posts and emails from two years ago. God, I was so naive, not to mention ignorant... Path: news2.digex.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!usenet ~From: Don Long ~Newsgroups: alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: plaque: r.i.p Speaker - Red Bear ~Date: 2 Sep 1996 19:33:50 GMT Organization: UCLA ~Lines: 7 Message-ID: <50fcqu$2ckk@uni.library.ucla.edu> ~References: <3225F3ED.F7D@ftn.net> <3229d6c2.14380408@news.usit.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts36-16.wla.ts.ucla.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) To: jmiles@usit.net ~Xref: news2.digex.net alt.callahans:159115 i wrote a parody a while back which "proved" that StM was not a real person but was a computer program written by students at Cal Tech. If I can find it, I will post it as my tribute to a worthy and admired and missed adversary. If anyone has a copy, please either post or let me know "Do not go gentle into that dark night" Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!babylon5.babcom.com!babylon5.babcom.com!not-for-mail ~From: alaric@babylon5.babcom.com (The Renaissance Man) ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 30 Aug 1996 00:53:30 -0700 Organization: The Babylon Project ~Lines: 64 Message-ID: <5066lq$8ps@babylon5.babcom.com> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com> <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: babcom.com ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154576 sci.skeptic:204208 alt.callahans:158930 Quoth Stafford@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford): ] In article <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu>, ] claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) wrote: ] ] > Check http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm/ -- the author of that page posted ] > about its existence to comp.os.vms (I think) and alt.callahans (I know). ] ] Yea, I read it. The author is clearly an sysadmin with little training ] in the disciplines of logic or rhetoric. In other words, he's just ] a bit-twiddling moron without a civil clue. "That," Alaric observes acidly, "would be a stunningly astute observation from the available evidence, were it possible to derive it from the available evidence. "However, inasmuch as said evidence does not support it, it's mere sour grapes, reflecting far more on its originator than on its target." ] It is interesting that this 'professional' group has so many readers ] who protested Carl's language but apparently had no knowledge of ] Kill Files, or at least less than enough proficiency to implement ] one themselves. "Or, a thousand times more likely, simply chose not to. It's safe and easy to insult people on the Net, but when you try to do so in this manner, you only prove yourself the fool." ] In private EMail, I had an exchange with a person (name omitted to ] protect the brain-dead) who protested Carl's demeanor, but said that ] he _had_ to read Carl's posts in order to get good information. That, ] to me, is the perfect description of a moron. "Carl was probably the greatest single resource in comp.os.vms, as well as being its greatest flamer and liability. That simple fact, however, is apparently beyond you. To dislike Carl's demeanor, but to recognize that by killfiling him, one would lose valuable information, is not the mark of a moron. It is the mark of someone far wiser than you appear to be. "Speaker, by now, would undoubtedly be calling you shit-for-brains. I leave the proof of the nomenclature as an exercise for the reader." ] To those who campaigned to get Carl fired - you will never know if ] your effort contributed to his demise, and you should be thankful ] of that. You remain powerless, assholes. "No-one campaigned to get Carl fired [Speakerphiles, insert a comma and the word 'asshole' here]. People complained about his behavior. There is a real, significant and important difference. When you're able to grasp it, come back and try joining this conversation on an adult level." -- Phil Stracchino Babylon Project System Administrator alaric@babcom.com Creator, alt.support.survivors.prozac The Renaissance Man http://www.babcom.com/jwz/alaric/ NRA, NRA-ILA, NRA-SATF, GOA, GOC, CRPA, CCRKBA, SAF, LEAA, NRAMC-SV Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!usenet ~From: xenon@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 19:24:02 GMT Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club ~Lines: 28 Message-ID: <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, NNTP-Posting-Host: data.club.cc.cmu.edu ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154434 sci.skeptic:203554 alt.callahans:158742 In Article Stafford@Wind.Winona.msus.edu (John J. Stafford) writes: >In article <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, beeson@slamaa.ed.ray.com >(Patrick I. Beeson, SUD x3085) wrote: > >> Gee...I didn't like him, but he helpful at times...how horrible! > > And that's to say nothing about the assholes who fired him > and the assholes who campaigned using innuendo to have him fired. > It's about time to name names. Shall I begin? I always read Carl's stuff on sci.skeptic, and was wondering what had happened to him, but yesderday was the first time I saw anything about his death. Is it really known for certain that he was fired? I thought he might have been missing due to illness. If he was fired due to complaints by some net.jackass, I'm going to be really pissed off! As far as I know, nobody on sci.skeptic knows anything about the circumstances of Carl's absence from the net and subsequent death, and I (we?) would appreciate any information (including names). I just read the "speaker" thread over on alt.callahans (a group I didn't know existed before yesterday) but there was not much information other than that Carl was found dead on Friday, cause attributed to "illness". - x p.s. you can probably guess why i always post from a pseudonymous account. Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!das-news2.harvard.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!claudia ~From: claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? Followup-To: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Date: 29 Aug 1996 19:53:48 GMT Organization: NowHere ~Lines: 24 Message-ID: <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunster-lab1.student.harvard.edu Cc: xenon@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154439 sci.skeptic:203571 alt.callahans:158747 xenon@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu wrote: : I always read Carl's stuff on sci.skeptic, and was wondering what : had happened to him, but yesderday was the first time I saw anything : about his death. Is it really known for certain that he was fired? : I thought he might have been missing due to illness. If he was fired due to : complaints by some net.jackass, I'm going to be really pissed off! As : far as I know, nobody on sci.skeptic knows anything about the circumstances : of Carl's absence from the net and subsequent death, and I (we?) would : appreciate any information (including names). I just read the : "speaker" thread over on alt.callahans (a group I didn't know : existed before yesterday) but there was not much information other : than that Carl was found dead on Friday, cause attributed to "illness". It is known that a letter was sent to his employers and that he was fired. The cause-and-effect relationship is not known. Check http://www.access.digex.net/~dpm/ -- the author of that page posted about its existence to comp.os.vms (I think) and alt.callahans (I know). Claudia -- "I try never to get involved with my own life. It's too much trouble." -- Michael Garibaldi Path: news2.digex.net!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!camilla ~From: Camilla Cracchiolo ~Newsgroups: comp.os.vms,sci.skeptic,alt.callahans ~Subject: Re: What happened to Carl Lydick? ~Date: 1 Sep 1996 17:01:02 -0700 Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000 ~Lines: 76 Message-ID: <50d83u$55k@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> ~References: <96082809083197@slamaa.ed.ray.com>, <504qp2$360@nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu> <504sgc$52m@decaxp.harvard.edu> <50cl5c$o0c@apollo.csd.net> X-Posted-By: camilla@206.165.5.111 (camilla) ~Xref: news2.digex.net comp.os.vms:154621 sci.skeptic:204531 alt.callahans:159058 What would be truly ironic is if someone built a conspiracy theory out of Carl's death. :) People with diabetes can die quite suddenly from a couple of causes. The first, of course, is that they can screw up with their insulin and die of hypoglycemia. This is why most diabetics carry some candy with them so they can take it at the first warning signs. Carl always struck me as real on top of his diabetes, so I can't picture him ignoring the signs or forgetting to have a little food or candy around. Especially since he died at home. The other big cause of sudden death in diabetics is heart damage. People with diabetes are much more prone than the general population to thickening and blockage of blood vessels. This is why they have to watch so carefully for infection in the fingers and toes and why so many of them eventually lose body parts to gangrene. This vascular damage extends to the coronary arteries: they can have sudden myocardial infarctions. They can also have sudden disturbances of heart rhythm (not related to myocardial infarction, just to damage of the electrical signalling system in the heart). So they can go into ventricular tachycardia followed quickly by ventricular fibrillation. I suspect this is what happened to Carl. This happened to my landlord a couple of years ago. He'd had well controlled diabetes for years. One day, his heart just did a weird flipflop and he passed out and died. He was only 51. As an aside (for another good man with diabetes who died young): Most people hate their landlords, but I always really liked Frank Segal. This isn't really related to Carl, but I feel Frank deserves some kind of memorialization in cyberspace. Because if not for him, I would have become homeless when I first came down with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and found myself completely unable to work. He let me slide a number of months on my rent until I got my fights with my disability insurance carrier straightened out. Unlike many landlords, he was a decent human being who just couldn't see himself putting a sick person out on the street, rent or no rent. Mark Tarka wrote: : claudia@funster1.student.harvard.edu (Claudia Mastroianni) writes: : >xenon@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu wrote: : >: than that Carl was found dead on Friday, cause attributed to "illness". : >It is known that a letter was sent to his employers and that he was : >fired. The cause-and-effect relationship is not known. : Speaking softly...Mark asks..."Is there a way to determine the : circumstances of Speaker's separation from his place of : employment?" : "And..." bowing his head..."for my own sake...has anyone been : able to confirm Yendi's report on Carl's death?" : "I'm...so saddened...." : Mark -- "The trick is to keep an open mind, without it being so open that your brain falls out." Camilla Cracchiolo, RN camilla@p